Obama has higher academic credentials than Hillary

[Levgreee]

He graduated magna cum laude (with great honor) From Harvard.

and was president of the Harvard Law Review, a very competitive position, a competitive position at Harvard no less.


Hillary received no honors with her degree from Yale. She served on the Board of Editors of the Yale Review of Law and Social Action, but that's not very similar to a competitive position like president of the Harvard Law review.




Now, assuming both worked very hard to live up to their potential, would this not be a plus for Obama over Hillary, either in academic intelligence, or work ethic?

[Unsane]

1. This is dumb.

[Levgreee]

16. Wait, so do experience, accompishments, and credentials NOT matter then? I thought it has

been a big issue, during this campaign.

[pnwmom]

68. They both are experienced and have excellent credentials and accomplishments.

Have you ever heard of the book, Emotional Intelligence? The authors studied a group of extremely intelligent people, all top Ph.d. scientists at the Bell Research Lab, correlating standard I.Q. scores with other measures of success. It turned out that above 130, the difference in I.Q. was UNIMPORTANT. Whether a scientist was in the top 2% or 1% of .5% didn't matter. What mattered was a host of other factors, which the authors called "Emotional Intelligence." What it boiled down to, the authors said, was that the most successful scientists weren't the ones with the highest IQ's. They were the scientists who were most successful at getting other people to ANSWER THEIR E-MAILS. In other words, they worked well with people.

And I'm sure the same type of criteria would also apply in success at being a President. Having a high IQ doesn't mean you're more empathic, or that you have good management skills, or that you have good values. Certainly, any good President needs to be intelligent. But beyond a certain point, IQ scores don't correlate with success, and there are many other factors -- much harder to measure, however -- that do.

[Catherine Vincent]

2. They're both more intelligent than Bush.

Enough said.

[Levgreee]

4. According to some, Obama isn't intelligent or hardworking enough. Hillary is the smarter candidate.

So apparently it doesn't matter that a candidate just be "smarter than Bush". Accomplishments matter.

[Big Blue Marble]

19. Provide a link for your "some."

Obama is reputed to be extremely smart by many.

[jackson_dem]

77. They are both highly intelligent as as was Edwards and Romney and Giuliani on the rethug side

[pnwmom]

78. Where have you read that? Not on DU, I bet.

I've never seen anyone till now try to claim that one of the two was smarter or harder working.

Older, younger, more experienced, more inspiring -- I've seen all these claims.

But I've never heard anyone claim that Hillary or Obama was SIGNIFICANTLY more intelligent or harder working.

[Vinca]

46. My cat, Stinker, is more intelligent than Bush. nt

[Creideiki]

101. I've got a pet rock that's more intelligent than Bush.

[ORDem]

3. He also passed his Bar first try, Hillary not. n/t

:kick:

[Faygo Kid]

10. Don't judge intelligence on bar exam results. Hell, I passed it first time out.

It's a test designed to determine how well you memorized law school. That's all. I passed it first time out, and I can't find my car keys in the morning.

[liberalnurse]

30. Hillary on the other hand

has given live BIRTH where Obama, he just was only sewing seeds.

Secondly; Hillary has serve a full Senate Term and is in her Second Term in the Senate. Third; Hillary lived in the Continental United States her entire life including all education levels.

[Binka]

109. Sewing Seeds....Sewing?

Jesus! Fuck! Jesus! Sewing! And BTW the fact that she lived in the US her entire life is no proof of anything but that she lived here. People who live abroad generally have a much more diversified view. SEWING. I just can't believe you posted that. Jesus GAWD!

Sewing: the act or process of working with a needle and thread.

Sowing: to plant or scatter seeds in or over the ground.

[texastoast]

36. Ho ho ho

REALLY? Did not know that. That is a shameful thing among those lawyer types.

[Iceburg]

40. FACT: Obama passed the Illinois bar, Hillary paased the AK bar.

[canadian_is_cold]

43. Don't forget Hill failed the Washington D.C. bar exam

[pnwmom]

116. Do you understand that ANY bar exam has practically nothing to do

with what the students have spent three years learning in law school?

They spend three years taking theoretical courses. Afterwards, they cram for the bar exam, which is the first time they have to learn actual local law. They often do this cramming while they are already working at a law firm. Every year, about half the people who take the exam flunk it, but many will pass it on a later try. Whether you pass the law exam on the first or second try has virtually nothing to do with later success as a lawyer.

http://www.lawcrossing.com/article/index.php?id=1279

"If you have joined the ranks of those who must retake the exam, be reminded that you are in good company. Throughout history, many governors, members of Congress, mayors, attorneys general, military generals, law school professors, and judges have failed the bar exam as first-time test takers.

"Hillary Clinton and the late John F. Kennedy, Jr., were two of the more famous politicos who were exposed as having failed their first bar exams--JFK, Jr., failed his second time around, as well--and Kathleen Sullivan, Stanford Law School's former dean and a renowned attorney in her own right, was one of more than 4,000 examinees who did not pass the California Bar Exam. "

[tabatha]

5. He has an IQ of around 180.

[Occam Bandage]

12. Twelve stories high, made of radiation.

[Bucky]

29. Obama's IQ is so high, it actually distorts the earth's magnetic field

Obama's IQ is so high, he rents it out as a signal booster antenna to cell phone companies.

Obama's IQ has its own zip code.

Only Obama's IQ can calculate how far Chuck Norris can kick your ass.

[Maddy McCall]

52. LOL

This is funny.

:D

[tabatha]

31. not biting

[pnwmom]

50. According to whom? The standard tests top out at about 150.

After that, it's even more guesswork than it is at lower scores.


If it WERE 180, however, that would essentially disqualify him in my opinion. Albert Einstein wouldn't have made good Presidential material, and neither would most people with that level of an IQ.

[JuniperLea]

70. Not so...

On either count.

The scoring does go higher.

Just because someone doesn't have charisma it's no sign they wouldn't make a very good president. They just wouldn't get many votes because people are stupid and think that you have to "like" someone a lot in order for them to be a good president.

[pnwmom]

74. IF Obama ever took an individualized IQ test, like Stanford Binet,

it was decades ago, and the standard tests then topped out near 150.

But all this is just silly, because there are plenty of people with reported IQ's higher than Obama's. Marilyn Vos Savant, the newspaper columnist, claims to be above 200. Would that make her the better President? Of course not.

[JuniperLea]

88. That in itself... no

But it's no more stupid than some of the other reasons people are giving for being for or against Obama or Clinton.

We need someone smart, without question. But no one can know for sure who is best suited for that job until well into the term, unfortunately.

This whole thread is pretty stupid.

[pnwmom]

92. It's not pretty stupid

it's amazingly stupid.

[goclark]

97. Does she want to be President?

Don't think so but now we have an idiot in the WH ,solely because of his NAME. The bar for intelligence is below ground.

[pnwmom]

111. I assume not. My point is that selecting for the highest IQ is a dumb way

to choose a President. Both Barack and Hillary are intellectually capable of handling the job. There are dozens of other qualities that are important, too, and some of them correlate inversely with high grade point averages in school. For example, one student might choose to concentrate almost all his efforts on his classes and the Law review, and end up with an almost perfect GPA. Another student might work hard in all her classes, but also spend a lot of time in valuable extracurricular activities. Who learned more while in Law school?

I think that what matters is how Barack or Hillary would lead the country NOW, not which one of them had the higher GPA or did more activities in law school. They were both stellar students. Trying to draw fine distinctions between them academically is just plain silly. Instead, let's ask where do they want to lead this country? Which one has the better chance of achieving those goals? And which one is better positioned to beat the Rethugs?

If you still have any doubts, if you're still thinking that we should figure out which one has the higher IQ and then vote for that one, then think about this. What if, in some election down the road, the RETHUG was marginally higher, in terms of conventional IQ stores, than the Democrat? Would you then vote for the Rethug? Why not? If his IQ is higher, he must be better, right?

Wrong.

[goclark]

118. HC is more than intellectually fit to be President

There is no question of that with me.

[JuniperLea]

69. So is mine...

Not a big deal.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

72. He's Very Bright But I Would Have To See Documentation

Do we know his SAT and LSAT scores?

[pnwmom]

80. That wouldn't tell you much of anything.

Neither would back up claims of an IQ of 180.

And no test he could have had as a child would either, because the better individualized tests back then topped out at about 150. (Reported scores above that were the result of guesswork and extrapolation.)

[Captain Hilts]

6. No. Hoover's academic credentials outshone FDR's. TROLLING. nt

[Faygo Kid]

7. Nobody can question their academic credentials.

They both beat W.

Which isn't too tough to do.

[DrDan]

8. oh good Lord . . . we have jumped the shark

[pnwmom]

51. Pretty crazy discussion, isn't it? n/t

[DrDan]

117. yep - kind of a "my Daddy can beat up your Daddy" discussion n/t

[goclark]

9. She was fine student at Yale

He was a TOP/HONORS student at Harvard.

Not bad for a child of mixed heritage.

Makes a lot of difference. I agree...

[northzax]

35. Not bad for a child of mixed heritage

seriously?

you're going to say this?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

73. Yeah

What does that mean?

[northzax]

81. it is, I believe

yet another implication of racism against those who don't swwon in His presence.

[goclark]

96. I am African American

and I forgot to mention that important piece.

I also forgot to put my :sarcasm:

GOBAMA! :bounce:

[pnwmom]

62. Or someone being mean COULD say: he was a grade grubber at law school,

apparently limiting himself to his classes and the Law review (according to Wikipedia, which another poster used in this thread to support Obama's superiority).

HRC, on the other hand, had a very busy schedule of classes AND extra-curricular activities -- from which I'm sure she learned as much as in any of her classes. Besides being an editor of the “Yale Review of Law and Social Action,” she also worked at the Yale Child Study Center, took cases on child abuse at Yale-New Haven Hospital, volunteered at New Haven Legal Services, worked on Marian Wright Edelman’s Washington Research Project, and campaigned for George McGovern.

[northzax]

79. I Am certain

that the hours obama put in at the free clinic simply didn't fit on his resume.

[pnwmom]

87. Someone should add them into his Wikipedia listing, which the OP

used in another post to back up his assertion that Obama had accomplished more. But Wikipedia doesn't list any extracurriculars other than the Law Review for Obama, but a host of activities for Clinton.

But the bottom line is: saying that one is better because he had a higher grade point or the other is better because she had more extra-curriculars is just plain silly.

[northzax]

90. indeed

not only that, but summa at harvard is simply finishing with an average of over ninety percent. Last year, there were over ninety of them at hls. If you get into harvard law, and do nothing but study, there is no excuse for being at least magna.

[WHAT]

104. constitutional law? that's what I like about that resume...

the area of expertise, the nexus of passion,...I'm hoping for a focus on representative democracy because I want to be represented as well as wanting others' interpretation ...I'd go for a Gaia concept of politics as it fits my "idea" survival instincts.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

11. Academic Credentials Mean Jack Shit Though.

There are people here with higher academic credentials that I run intellectual circles around every single damn day.

I'd say this particular bullet point is a worthless one, with all due respect.

[mudesi]

41. Give me an example

Because I've never seen you win any argument here, ever, with anyone.

:rofl:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

44. That's Cause You're An Ignoramus With Wildly Flawed Perception.

Just sayin...

[BootinUp]

58. see #55

[BootinUp]

55. A guy that worked for me

used to tout his SAT scores being near perfect, but couldn't figure out that a box label went inside the marked area (the size of a label) on a cardboard box.

[JuniperLea]

71. I have to agree...

There's a huge difference between "book" learning and "horse sense".

Plus, the smarter a person is, the more likely they are to overlook the simple yet correct answer.

And I've seen you bust chops aroung here... you have run circles around some pretty smart people... not bad for being such a dumbass... lol~! JK!!!

[goclark]

98. Harvard didn't just give him the Credentials because

he was Black!

He had to be ten times better in order to do better than a BUSH.

[NastyRiffraff]

13. I think anyone could agree..

(except for the most rabid, i.e. "stupid" supporters) that both candidates are extraordinarily intelligent. Very often, college records don't reflect intelligence, or much of anything else.

Academic honors are fine, but many people get along great without them, or even without a college degree. Steve Jobs and Bill Gates come to mind.

[Levgreee]

14. Note, I am not saying Hillary is not very intelligent. I'm just saying Barrack has an edge here,

in accomplishments and credentials.

So would we not care, if one of the candidates went to UCLA, while the other went to Yale/Harvard? People pay attention to these things, and they do give some(key word some) indication of the abilities of a person.

[jackson_dem]

83. Edwards went to UNC, Biden Syracuse

Did anyone care? The only time I heard a candidate's education pedigree mentioned consistently was Bush's Yale and Harvard degrees...How did that turn out for us?

[pnwmom]

114. What if McCain had "the edge"? Would you vote for him if you

were convinced he was the smartest of the three, based on his records in college and law school?

Assuming you wouldn't -- because there are other factors even more important than raw intelligence -- than the same other factors also weigh in in any choice between Obama and Clinton.

[Bluebear]

15. Bush's credentials are super-impressive on their face too.

I wouldn't go there.

[Levgreee]

18. Um, no. He was like a B or C student at Yale. No academic positions. Not quite super-impressive.

[Bluebear]

21. Um yes. Degrees from Yale & Harvard are impressive to America.

How many times did we hear he is the "MBE" President. You think the average voter is poring over his transcript to see what grades he got?

[Levgreee]

24. I knew, off the top of my head. And I am not talking about what is "percieved" as impressive,rather

what is actually impressive, what one in 10,000 people do.... rather than a low-level student at Yale, with a powerful political family backing him.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

17. Swell... Let's just elect Stephen fucking Hawking then.

[fenriswolf]

42. id vote for him

[pnwmom]

75. You're forgetting Marilyn Vos Savant,

the question-and-answer columnist with the over 200 I.Q.

But maybe she'd settle for V.P.

[Raejeanowl]

103. Why?

What did she ever really accomplish except become famous for being "smart?"

[pnwmom]

110. Exactly. I was being sarcastic. I was trying to prove the point that comparing

high IQ's is a stupid way to choose a President, by using the most ridiculous example I could think of.

[Xithras]

89. In a heartbeat.

Seriously. Even if he ran as a Green!

[readmoreoften]

105. Are you kidding he looks like an elf?!

He's not pretty and hot like Obama! He's wrinkly and witchy and mean like Clinton. And his voice is not mellifluous. And he has thick ankles. :sarcasm:

[Tennessee Gal]

20. Who cares?

[rug]

22. He's never used an eraser.

[PATRICK]

23. Well, this IS

something to note. Many past presidents have not graduated with honors. Many generals who became president never graduated near the top of their class like Wes Clark. At the same time slurs against NOT being at the top was used to make Gore appear light, I suppose in some way to counter Bush II's princely indolence and mediocrity during his heritage residence at Harvard.

The side issue of having so many of the power elite coming from these particular Ivy League schools is pertinent as well. None of it certainly hurts Obama and we DO want the hardest working, smartest leaders
possible with or without the resume.

Now comes a subtle prejudice- or good point. At lot of the stolid changelessness, lack of imagination, slowness to change to see what is happening is due to failures of intelligence. Nothing is a guarantee but the touch of mediocrity hurts very very badly in a screwed world. Many many admired leaders have been in over the heads- may be all. The "best and the brightest" irony should only be revived with extreme caution. It would be typical of the stone brained American journalists to start branding Obama and his advisers as smart guys who will get their comeuppance with intellect hubris. The mediocre American journalism scene has yet another reason to jealousy take down Obama where it raised up the lazy, ill-informed, coke brained swell guy who was most like themselves.

[Levgreee]

27. Obama has been compared to Bush, someone you'd want to have a beer with...

so I wouldn't say I have fear of it flipping the other way, at this point.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[karynnj]

38. Actually he didn't

They compared onlty their first three years because the grading system changed. Kerry had a bad first year then got progressively better - Bush's were flatter. Had they attempted to convert senior year - the Freshman year would have counted less and Kerry's would have been higher.

They also did not take the same courses. Kerry got a C in French, a language he was fluent in from childhood and speaks and understands well enough that he did not need an interpretor in France as he and Chirac spoke their own languages and knew the other.

Kerry's grades did not concern Yale - he was their debate champion, and headed the political organization that brought in speakers, played 4 sports, and still found time to learn to fly an airplane, have a part time job and an active social life( he dated Jackie Kennedy's half sister his senior year in high school and freshman year in college and his first wife the next 3 years) He cut classes - per Tour of Duty.

There was never any doubt on his intelligence. Madeline Albright actually quoted the foreign policy speech he gave when he graduated Yale in her book 2 years ago on the new American foreign policy. Many things he said then were far ahead of their time and immature versions of what he says now. Anyone who has watched many CSPAN covered hearings or committee meeting will see what was seen in the debates - he is almost always the smartest guy in the room.)

He passed his bar exam the first time.

[Ravy]

26. I believe I read he is taller, too. nt

[Bluebear]

28. He does crossword puzzles IN PEN!

:silly:

[rug]

32. No, he does them completely in his head.

[Bluebear]

34. In Icelandic.

[Zynx]

64. Then he writes the answers in ancient Hebrew.

[rug]

82. Backwards.

[MADem]

94. AND upside-down! In cursive!!!! nt

[rug]

95. While healing lepers.

[readmoreoften]

106. While healing lepers with one hand and brewing a cup of tea with the other...

and that cup of tea is for you... and he knows exactly how you like it.

[Bucky]

33. The heat generated by Obama's superbrain actually makes people in his vacinity pass out

He's turned this into an advantage at several campaign rallies this spring.

[End Of The Road]

37. I graduated Summa Cum Laude and don't have a damn job!

The thread is meaningless.

By the way, Hillary graduated with honors from Wellesly.

[Freddie Stubbs]

39. But Yale is a higher ranked law school

[Zynx]

57. U.S. News rankings are such garbage, but yes, Yale is viewed as being

more intellectually rigorous. Harvard is more Wall Street oriented.

[northzax]

61. the challenge at hls is getting in

once you are in, it is a factory for business lawyers who will never see a courtroom or judge, and tend to lean conservative. Yale produces academics, professors and liberals. It is also a much smaller school that didn't accept women until the sixties...we are spoiled to not remember that Hillary was a pioneer in her time as well.

And didn't obama teach at Chicago? The republican law school?

[Zynx]

63. Even Republican Law Schools have solid Democrats on their faculty.

Here at UW-Madison there are arch-conservatives on our faculty and we're about as liberal as they come.

[northzax]

67. liberals are good at that

conservative have tended not to be. and by no means am I implying the obama is a consevative (he needs more of a record for that, although he is more comfortable with conservatives than I would like)

[nolabels]

45. Wasn't there some kind of story about Bill Gates being a drop-out of some kind?

It's not your credentials or all the tools and accruments you have at your disposal but your skill at using them. So called intelligence can be kind of boring sometimes even. The thing is that to a lot of people he seems to be up to the job and doesn't appear to be making too many mistakes. After all, most people don't spend one or two years at their job interview but somehow this guy named Obama seems to excel and even get better at it by the day.

[pnwmom]

53. Yup. And though his IQ is probably AT LEAST as high as Obama's,

that doesn't mean he'd make a better President of the United States.

[BootinUp]

60. He out smarted IBM nt

[pnwmom]

47. Nope. Being President is not a simple matter of I.Q. score, although they

are both probably in the top one half of one percent, nationally. And they both are extremely hard workers.

For some reason you've left out the fact that she was #1 in her class at Wellesley. Why is that?

[Levgreee]

49. All I read at wikipedia was that she graduated with departemental honors at Wellesley

so I was doing a comparison of their postgraduate educations at law schools, not taking into account Columbia for Barack, Wellesley for Hillary.

[pnwmom]

59. Then you should take into account their extra-curricular activities at law

school, which certainly would have impacted their respective grade points.

Since you’re going by Wikipedia, then to be fair you should have mentioned her activities beyond being an editor of the “Yale Review of Law and Social Action,” which you claim isn’t as prestigious as being Editor of the Harvard Review. While at Yale, she also worked at the Yale Child Study Center, took cases on child abuse at Yale-New Haven Hospital, volunteered at New Haven Legal Services, worked on Marian Wright Edelman’s Washington Research Project, and campaigned for George McGovern.

I’d list comparable activities for Obama except apparently we’re going by Wikipedia—and it doesn’t say anything about his extra-curricular activities during law school, except for his position on the Law review. But perhaps he devoted all his time to keeping his grade point as high as possible. Good for him – but not necessarily a reason he’d make a better President.

[onenote]

48. I'm an Obama supporter and I wish you would just shut up - you're embarassing

[Bucky]

54. Obama has read the entire internet...

twice!

[Zynx]

56. What a bunch of elitist bull crap.

[pnwmom]

65. Why do we even have elections? We should just do one nationwide IQ test,

then draft that person for the job. And the V.P. could be #2.

[pnwmom]

66. Marilyn Vos Savant for President! The lady the with the super high IQ

who writes the newspaper question and answer column. She should be President, and Bill Gates can be Vice President.

Unless we can find two people with even higher I.Q.s.

:sarcasm:

[jackson_dem]

76. Bush got better college grades than Kerry (see what coke does to a brain kids!)

Does that mean Bush is smarter than Kerry? Come on...

[DURHAM D]

84. I wouldn't use the Harvard Law Review editor thingie -

He was picked as a compromise candidate because he had no political views. As editor he took no positions - just made them vote over and over again because he wouldn't take a position.

Hardly the guy I want to be leader of the western world.

[jackson_dem]

85. Oh, and guess why people want to be on law review

It isn't because of a desire to be an "agent of change" in society. ;)

[Dems Will Win]

86. Hillary failed a bar once didn's she?? Laurence Tribe at Harvard said Obama was the best student he

ever had

[pnwmom]

93. So did Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. So did lots of very successful,

highly intelligent lawyers.

No question Obama was a brilliant student. No question Clinton was, too. At a certain point, increases in IQ scores are meaningless. That's why the tests that were available when Clinton and Obama were growing up -- assuming either one ever took one -- topped out at about 150. Any reported score above that level is just guesswork.

[MADem]

91. Alberto Gonzalez went to the same law school. George Bush went to the business school at Harvard.

Mitt Romney has an MBA from the Harvard franchise, too.

That paragon of virtue, Richard Kleindienst, who heard G. Gordon Liddy's confession but mistook himself for a catholic priest, and didn't bother to tell anyone, was AG under Nixon and a Haah-vid law grad, too.

Graduation from that school doesn't convey upon it any particular ability...or disability.

And it isn't a harbinger of moral rectitude, certainly.


:eyes:

[Scurrilous]

99. Kick

:kick:

[ruiner4u]

100. his creds are from a muslim school

id stay away from that talking point considering what that bomb making 101 is an elective in tht madras's<sp like i care>

[Muzza]

102. NO. Relevance? According to Obama, experience/past doesn't matter!

[readmoreoften]

107. Obama learned Zermelo-Fraenkel Set Theory in a single day.

The next day he became an egyptologist.
On the third day he mastered quantum physics and built a rocket to the moon.
On the fifth day he manned the rocket all by himself.
On the sixth day he met with Jesus on the moon. They walked towards one another in big, floaty steps and Jesus told Obama how to set people free.
And on the seventh day, he gave foot rubs and ponies and rainbows to everyone in the whole wide world and we lived happily ever after.

[woolldog]

108. Yale doesn't award JDs with any kind of honors.

[mtnester]

112. Neener neener

I have died and gone to third grade.

[pnwmom]

115. LOL!

:rofl:

[pnwmom]

113. What if McCain had higher academic credentials than either Democrat?

Would that make him the best President? Obviously not.

I rest my case.