This early DU member wants to know what the fuck happened to DU????

[No Passaran]

This is so sad. What the hell happened to DU? I’ve been a member since 2001 and back then until this year we were all united. I was helped by some of you through my two deployments to Iraq and when I thought I had no hope left dealing with PTSD, I found it in you. I love you and what you represent(ed).
And here, I read, day after day just negative garbage about both candidates. Ok, I can swallow that with hope that come November we’re all united for one candidate.
And then today I’m reading how if Obama wins Hillary people won’t vote for Obama but would rather cast their vote as a “write in”. That’s a vote for McCain and you should be ashamed. I risked UCMJ speaking against Bush even in Iraq and you want to bring about 8 more years of the same and have another soldier risk it all for this? Just support whoever is there on the ballot that says (D). How complicated is that?
Soldiers will die for nothing if McCain is President. Bottom line. Gut check time.

[Midlodemocrat]

1. Good to see you, GA Democrat.

And, chalk it up to trolls. Real honest to God Democrats wouldn't tear apart their party the way some of these folks have.


:hi:

[Debi]

15. I read on another thread that YOU are not a real honest to God Democrat

:crazy: So....what will you be doing in November?

[Midlodemocrat]

26. I know. I have to say, I had to pull out my voter registration card and double check.

:rofl:

You CANNOT make this stuff up.

Uh-oh, gotta go. TM is home and I have to indoctrinate her before she decides to vote for Hillary.

[Debi]

43. Stop Teen Democratic Activism NOW!

:woohoo:

[Hugin]

28. Seconded.

Midlo lies to Gawd!

:7

[Debi]

41. Ya know - everytime she gets in the sauce her real self emerges

[Midlodemocrat]

64. Told ya. No wine until Lent is over.

:rofl:

[LostinVA]

73. I bet whisky sales are up in Midlothian

[babylonsister]

2. Thank you. That needed to be said. And

thank you for your service, GA Democrat. :hug:

[LeftCoast]

3. Many of the people who are posting to GD are so foul I want nothing to do with the candidate they

claim to support.

I have never seen so many stupid, willfully blind spinmeisters in my life. If it's their candidate s/he shits rose petals, if it's their 'enemy' the candidate is apparently pure concentrated evil.

Sad.

[ExPatLeftist]

104. Honestly

why would you allow a few nominal supporters to sour you on any candidate? You do realize that the candidate has no control over their "supporters'" actions, don't you?

I have seen several posts like this one, and cannot for the life of me understand how someone could think this way. Will you please explain?

[goldcanyonaz]

162. I totally agree.

[GodlessBiker]

4. Thanks for that post. Yes, gut check time indeed.

[leftofcool]

5. Thank you for your service

and for the post.

Left of Cool

[HCE SuiGeneris]

6. Thank you GA Dem.

:thumbsup: :patriot:

[Tatiana]

7. All righty then!!!!!!

:grouphug:

Good post!

[blm]

8. Personally, I just chalk it up to the moment. I doubt any Dem here follows through on

their heat of the moment threat.

And if one or two do, well it's not even worth wasting the bandwidth to point it out.

Heh - but nice to see you again, GA.

[bpeale]

132. i, for one, am writing my candidate's name in. and you can take that to the bank.

[Kilroy003]

155. Are you one of those people

who always writes-in 'Jesus Christ' on the ballot? Or, maybe you are a 'Mickey Mouse' voter?

[bpeale]

185. i am an aetheist & damned proud of it too

[Barrymores Ghost]

177. I'm sure the world will take note. n/t

[book_worm]

9. The usual it was bad for a time in '04, too.

[Breeze54]

10. It's been a delightful weekend here and then some.

:sarcasm:

I glad you're feeling better and welcome home!

Don't let the trolls and the emotionally challenged get you down.

Some of them seem to be under the delusion that the flaming will get people on their side. :eyes:

[papau]

11. I plan to hold my nose and vote for Obama if he's the nominee - as seems likely - but I do not

like the need to hold my nose and pretend he is not a first class user of smears and lies against Hillary, or to pretend that his campaign of shit throwing while yelling "hope" does not matter.

[SammyWinstonJack]

52. ...

:thumbsup:

[peacetalksforall]

128. I can understand why Clinton goes for the jugular with the advisors

she has and their need for the DLC to control everything, but Obama doesn't have to stoop low. He is supposed to have the class, originality, and freshness to deal with a fight without hitting low which he is doing. She handled her opposition just finr in the 90's. What changed for them? What a disappointment.

How does one get enthusiastic over either? It's like Israeili leaders and their military with the Palestinians - an eye for an eye in perpetuity.

I am tired of people fighting who have a royal fight of an ungodly magnitude even if they worked together.

It's so real and so phony - because you can project ahead and see them with raised arms when one of them wins.

Where's Al Gore - he's a fighter also, but with more class than either Clinton or Obama at this point in time. I hope they haven't crossed their point in time.

One thing about both of them = they don't seem to talk about and haven't done much about vote theft. It doesn't exist for them, it semms. It's something the people can do for themselves. Criticize Diebold or Hagel/ES & S or the others? Not them.

[benddem]

12. thank you for saying what needs to be said

this is RIDICULOUS. I hardly come to DU anymore...and when I see the headers leave. Anyone who claims they will not vote for the candidate who wins deserves to have their voting rights suspended. The ignorance of that is beyond contempt. You want more Scalias, Scalitos and Thomas on the supreme court, go ahead and be stupid. Reminds me of children who fight and take their toys and go home.
Get a grip!!!
And GA Dem...thanks for your service. Two tours in Iraq...you are a hero.

[bpeale]

133. the right to vote is in the Bill of Rights

that is a law. no one should have their voters rights suspended or revoked because they don't support YOUR candidate, the democratic candidate, or the republican candidate. that is free choice. we all have it so get over yourself. i served in the military myself to preserve & defend your right to vote for whoever you want ... even if its the family dog.

[pipi_k]

142. I'm not often inspired to come out of lurk mode, but...

I have to say that I don't think "benddem" is implying that people should have their voting rights revoked simply because they won't vote for someone else's candidate.

My guess is...and it's also my opinion, FWIW....that people who don't take that right seriously enough should have it revoked. That means no game playing at the polls with writing in someone else's name, etc.

If people are so emotionally invested in their own candidate that they're going to either stay home and not vote, or write in someone else's name just because THEIR candidate isn't on the ballot, then it's no longer about their concern for our country, it's all about their silly little egos.

The voting booth isn't a place for kiddie games.

As you said, there were too many people who fought, and died, for our RIGHT to vote. People can either take it seriously, or they can give it up.

As I pointed out in a thread yesterday, I have my candidate in mind...who it is doesn't matter. But if the other person wins the nomination, I'll still vote for the Democrat because IMO, any Democrat is better than four more years of Republican insanity.

[Der Blaue Engel]

182. Hopefully, this is all hyperbole

(I mean the references to revoking one's rights.) I can see the frustration behind such a sentiment, but everyone has the right to vote, even people we consider frivolous, stupid, evil, daft, misguided or just plain wrong.

We just have to accept that not everyone will do with their vote what we think they should and be glad that they can't revoke our right to vote for not doing what they think we should with ours. I, myself, have cast some phenominally stupid votes in my past.

:hi: Welcome to DU, pipi_k!

[bpeale]

190. exactly! i will defend to the death anyone's right to be wrong! period.

[bpeale]

187. you call it game playing, i call it writing in the best candidate for the job

having voted for roughly 40 year of my life, voting is not something i take lightly. and since the democratic party has seen fit to choose the candidate, i don't see why i should support their decision one iota ... not financially, and certainly not with a vote.

i will vote for the candidate i feel is best for the job even if that candidate is not on the ballot.

[bpeale]

188. the only vote you can control is YOUR VOTE

my vote is MINE, not yours, and certainly belongs to no party.

it is not YOUR decision, or the party's decision, whether someone has the RIGHT to vote. that is contained in the BILL OF RIGHTS. and that does not require your signature. you can talk till the cows come home about what you think. it doesn't matter because the bill of rights takes precedence. get over yourself. you are not that important in the scheme of things.

FWIW, i am beginning to hate the dems as much as i hate the repugs.

[Debi]

13. Haven't you heard?

Iraq War - Supreme Court - no-bid contracts - don't matter.

If their candidate doesn't win the primary then they do not care what happens to our country.

Myopic, eh? Very.

[grantcart]

14. What I don't understand about the Hillary supporters is

that they think that this was somehow taken from Hillary. She didn't own it she had to earn it.

80% of the Obama supporters in here did not start with him in the begining. He beat our candidate. We got up off the floor and most of us went Obama. Why is Hillary in a different position. What is so special about Hillary that makes her followers more entitled than those who supported Richardson, Biden, Dodd, Kucinich, Edwards and Al Gore? We lost. And then we went on without trying to sabotage the party.

[Debi]

17. Yep, more about the party than ourselves! n/t

[DemzRock]

23. Ah, but in a way. it was taken. Not entirely by Obama, but by irrational hatred and the delayed

Clinton fatigue leftover from years of lies and smears against Bill and Hillary...

Obama newbies. Be prepared to be in Clinton supporter's shoes in a few years.

You may hear about Obama fatigue and his family might be snubbed because people are tired of the RW attacks on him over the years.

If something he proposed fails, they will blame him instead of the GOP and corporations who outmaneuvered him.

What comes around. Goes around.

The irrational hatred and attacks on Clinton were wrong and they still are.

[grantcart]

32. Well that is based on two facts that are not established

1) That the Clinton's did nothing to give these folks either reason or opportunity for attack

2) That a different strategy out flanking the opposition and 'spiking the muskets', going directly to the people will not have a different response.

If you think that what was thrown at the Clintons is somehow unique in American history then you need to get to the library. The vile that was sent towards FDR was infinitely sharper. He neutralized it or he simply by passed it.

[lark]

181. What the media did to FDR pales compared to their treatment of Clinton's

FDR had a well known affair, flaunted in his wife's face even, but he was never impeached for it as was Clinton. That's a basic fundamental difference. They also didn't indict his wife in the papers for losing money in a land deal, after it had first made money.


lark

[beezlebum]

115. ah, who said the disapproval (not hatred- that's rw'ian) was irrational?

i'm really tired of blaming her poor performance on "irrational hatred." that is SO right-wingian! even though i had and have good reasons for loathing bush, i'm still called an "irrational bush-hater." please, if you want to win over support for your candidate, you might be best off not using right-wing tactics, like telling people they're "irrational" and gullible.

further, are you saying the obama hatred by hillary supporters- by which i mean, "i'm not voting for obama in the ge gomccain!!!11!1"- is rational?!

[yardwork]

30. Do you have a link for that broad-brushed smear against Hillary supporters?

I'm a Hillary supporter who didn't start with her in the beginning. She's my third or fourth choice (I lost count along the way). I see her as very slightly better than Obama. I've posted many times that I'll vote for whomever gets the nomination.

What's with these broad-brushed attacks on "Hillary supporters?"

[grantcart]

75. exactly what smear are you referring to

[femrap]

69. When Edwards suspended, I went with HRC

because I know she will be good to women and children...and that is the majority of citizens in this country.

W has reversed, not funded, executive ordered so may rights/programs that we worked so hard for...in '04 while working for Kerry, I found The National Women's Law Center where they keep track of the hideous misogynist work of W. None of these actions are ever in the MSM.

For example, the Bureau of Labor Statistics is no longer to track women in the work force.

With BO's 'present' votes in IL Senate, he makes me feel uncomfortable. And that church he belongs to seems pretty creepy. He doesn't care about lesbian/gays. I doubt if he cares if women can afford to get birth control or a legal abortion.

The other thing he said when asked by the Columbus Dispatch about his ability to handle foreign affairs...he said the poor of the world would understand him because his grandmother lives in Africa with NO running water. Why the hell doesn't he send he some $$$ so she can have a well??? I'm assuming he is referring to Ruth who was his father's 3rd wife.

I have doubts about his ambitions which he is known for...is that ambition for the people of this country or is it just to be prez?

And the MSM has treated him with kid gloves....why? I imagine because the 5 ugly, rich, white repugnants who own the MSM want to face him in the General Election. His family alone will provide quite a few raised eyebrows. I come from a divorced home so I know all about step and half siblings but you do need a flow chart to keep his family members straight. I'm serious. His father, who was a complete asshole, had children with 4 women...2 African and 2 white. Kezia, his first wife is still living in England. Ann, BO's mother passed away from ovarian cancer...and I believe had 2 or 3 husbands and at least one other child, I believe.

I sure hope BO takes after his mother.

[Leopolds Ghost]

77. "His father had children with 4 women...2 African 2 white. I sure hope BO takes after his mother."

Excuse me?

"His family alone will provide quite a few raised eyebrows. Kezia, his first wife is still living in England. Ann, BO's mother passed away from ovarian cancer...and I believe had 2 or 3 husbands and at least one other child, I believe."

Ooh, Kezia, sounds like a "black" name. (eyebrows)

[femrap]

157. Listen...I just want to prepare you

for the attacks that the rovian machine are going to throw at BO. So do your damn homework and be prepared.


As I mentioned I have the step/half siblings...my parents were divorced in the '50's when only Liz and Richard got divoreced. I was not allowed in the homes of some of my friends. So I know what it's like. So you better be prepared....because if you think everyone in the US is an open-minded, tolerant person, you have your head where the sun doesn't shine.

Got it? And don't make me out to be racist, you sexist twig.

Do you understand now or do I have to draw you a picture of the red states and how they vote?

[FedUp_Queer]

94. As a gay man (and former Edwards and possible Obama supporter)...

I am sick and damn tired of people extolling the virtues of the Clintons(Bill was AWFUL on GLBT issues -DOMA , DADT). Notwithstanding Obama's Donnie McClurkin incident, Obama is better on his gay stances than Hillary. They are both for UAFA. They are both for ENDA. BUT...Obama is for complete repeal of DOMA and Hillary is not. So, please cut the crap about Hillary and her "great record" on LGBT issues.

[femrap]

158. And if Bill did it, it was HRC's fault, right?

Ignoring the Donnie incident is your choice. And deeply caring about the LGBT issues is your right as well.

As is mine....if I feel that HRC will be good for women and children...THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN THIS NATION, then I'll support her. Maybe the L's feel differently than you.

I do remember however, that Bill's FIRST act as Prez was to pay back the LGBT community for its support. Sorry that didn't meet your approval.

As for your 'possible' stance on BO, I see no 'possibility' at all in your comments...just disgust for the Clintons. Sure hope you hate W more.

You're a newbie here...so I'm putting you on ignore. good luck

edit: spell

[GoneOffShore]

165. You got it

Bill was awful on a lot of things. The further we get from his time in office the clearer THAT fact becomes.

NAFTA, Welfare Reform, DOMA, DCMA - Bill was a great friend to the corporations. To ordinary citizens, not so much. He certainly talked a good game, but actually standing up for progressive values, no.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

127. You're right that you don't understand Sen. Clinton's supporters. You're wrong about knowing how we

"think".

I came to support her after my top two choices dropped out. I never thought, as you profess, that she was "entitled". Nice way to stereotype us.

[texastoast]

153. That's IT

My candidates lost out.

But those people on the board who are going to support McCain by withholding their vote for the Dem candidate or writing in a vote or "by God voting for McCain to show the Democratic Party," well, yes, they have a right to do so, but they bear the responsibility of their actions.

Just like the Dems who voted for the IWR. For if McCain gets in office, more will die in the Middle East. He will see to it. And if we don't vote to stop it, maybe we won't sleep so well either.

[WilliamPitt]

16. It was worse in 2004

Funny. People don't recognize democracy anymore when it's happening right there in front of them.

Democracy is messy and crazy. This is a GOOD THING. The elections that weren't messy in recent years...how'd those turn out?

Don't tell me, I already know.

:toast:

[Uzybone]

76. Its far worse now

there was no out and out sexism, flinging of the race card and irrational hatred back then. The worst thing was seventhson and the other Skull and Bones anti-Kerryites. This version of DU is disgusting at this point. I hope this nomination is over soon.

[Capn Sunshine]

169. Will, I have to disagree

Being on the receiving end of the Clinton wave of newbies, it's much worse this time. The difference is since then I have realized DU means NOTHING in the Real World and has zero influence on the party. So I don't live here like I did then.

:toast: back atcha, Boston boy.

[DangerDave921]

18. Very Different Indeed

So much anger, tension, resentment, accusations. It goes well beyond mere support of one's candidate.

I think it could be that DU finally got so well known amongst the public that it attracted people whose sole mission is to be disruptors. They don't care about politics or issues. They just like to create havoc for fun and jokes. Stupid really. I wouldn't take half the comments on here seriously.

[WillyT]

19. Well... I Tried To See If We Could Vote To Put An End To This Mindless Crap, But...

it got locked.

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2925314

:shrug:

[JackORoses]

20. Rabid, inconsolable Hillarites happened

Don't worry, it will all be over soon.

[Der Blaue Engel]

70. You happened n/t

[lark]

183. Neophyte escaping under the radar Obama

trusts Repugs and wants to walk hand in hand with them into the sunset singing kumbayah (sp?). Think they won't be mugging him? Think again.

lark

[elixir]

21. Pretty scary, huh? I don't think we've had a primary before w/ such highly qualified candidates.

Ws it like this in 2004 w/ Kerry and Edwards?

[juajen]

56. Absolutely not. We didn't have a bunch of republican

cross-overs manipulating the election. This is the cause of the bitterness.

[reggie the dog]

103. how do you want to win

without having people that voted Republican last time vote Democrat this time?????

[classof56]

22. Thanks for this, GA Dem. And thanks for your service!

I can only imagine how mind-bending your time in Iraq was when you knew what an unmitigated fiasco it was. I commend you and salute you and especially thank you for this post. DU has been a refuge for many of us, even those who don't post that often, but lately the rhetoric has been ugly and disturbing and I almost didn't contribute to the last fundraiser. But I did, because posters like you help me keep my sanity not to mention some glimmer of hope for the future. As we used to say in the 60s, keep the faith, and I have faith in my fellow Dems that when push comes to shove they'll do the right thing and vote for those who will turn things around. It'll take some real doing, undoing all the damage the Bush and his minions have mired us in, but it can be done. We just have to rally round the flag and help make it happen.

I am going on record--like you, I will vote for whatever Dem is running for whatever office. Too much at stake to go into, but any of us here should be able to figure out what hell awaits us if the Dems don't win!

Blessings to you.

Tired Old Cynic

[tpsbmam]

24. Bravo! n/t

[tabasco]

25. Hooah.

Those who threaten to stay home on election day or vote republican don't care about you or the war or any soldiers. They only care about themselves. The same immaturity you see in children - "if I can't be the quarterback, I'm taking the football and going home!" Sad to see in adults. Sad to see the apathy about the war.

I hope whoever the Democratic President is, they will be able to get a good start on cleaning up Bush's disasters.

I spent a couple years at Fort Benning, all of it in training.

[bpeale]

134. what a bunch of clap trap. people can vote for who the hell they want.

the only vote YOU CAN CONTROL is your own. get over it.

[lark]

184. Millions will live with the consequences

and untold thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people will die if the Dems don't unite and vote for whoever their nominee is. Yes, you have have a right, everyone has a right to vote for whoever they want or not vote if that's their choice. However there will be major consequences for the country if we don't start restoring the constitution soon, by getting rid of the imperialistic Repugs.

I will not contribute a dime to a certain candidate although I've always contributed in elections past, because I don't trust him at all to do what he says and the baseless adoration just sickens me. I will however, hold my nose and vote for him if he's the "D" in the election - because he is better than "all war all the time" which is the other choice.

lark

[bpeale]

192. there isn't 10 cents worth of difference between the 2 left

thanks. i'll vote my conscience. the dem party is irrevocably broken because of their own stupidity. and its doubtful that there will be any kind of unity in the party any time in the future. as long as white haired old men are choosing our candidate, as long as the MSM is allowed to choose our candidate, as long as crossover repubs are allowed to choose our candidate, we have no party left to defend.

after the last 4 election cycles, i will not hold my nose & vote for anyone. if i do not believe they are fit for the job, they will not get my vote. that means the dems will not get my vote. i'd sooner vote for my cat, Bailey ... at least he loves me unconditionally & meets or exceeds all my expectations of him.

[NoBorders]

27. GD-P has self-selected itself into hell

Most of the reasonable people have left for now. Wait, what does that say about me? ;-)

[MelissaB]

35. GDP needs to be exterminated. It's rare I come here anymore.

[Leopolds Ghost]

79. Drop the bomb -- exterminate all the brutes!

:nuke: }( :nuke:

[polmaven]

47. Well, you did say

MOST of the reasonable people.

A few of us do remain! :D

[NoBorders]

67. I like to think of myself as reasonable as well

And most here probably really are, but the 'dialogue' seems to be driven by the extremists. But what do I know.

[yardwork]

29. This middle DU member agrees with you, and thanks you for your service.

I joined DU right around the time of the 2004 primaries and they were bad, but nothing like this. I read a lot of things on the internets that aren't worthy of another thought, but there are a couple of trends here on DU that are especially silly.

One is the tendency of some posters to express their negative feelings about Hillary Clinton and her campaign in completely over the top terms. It's one thing to write "I'm mad at Hillary" or even (if they must) "I hate Hillary" but comparing Hillary Clinton's campaign to lynchings and the Nazis is absurd.

Equally pathetic is the tendency of some posters - supposedly representing one campaign or the other - to insist that they won't vote or will vote Republican if the other Democratic candidate is nominated. That kind of behavior is what got us chimpy in the White House for eight years. Yes, he was helped along by the Supreme Court and rigged voting machines, but way too many people decided that "Al Gore is just as bad as George W. Bush!" back in 2000. I would hope that Democrats don't make that mistake again.

[No Passaran]

48. I supported Edwards

In 2004 and in 2008 but I still voted for Kerry and will vote for any Democrat to return to Pennsylvania Ave. I know I didn't mention any other topics but getting our soldiers back from Iraq should be first priority. Not to mention Supreme Court, Economy and Healthcare.

[yardwork]

54. I agree with those priorities and would add the Environment.

[October]

31. Too true. There was a stabbing near Philly over this...

I have a friend who is just adamantly opposed to voting for one of our Dem candidates. I'm so appalled, but the more people call her on it, the more stubborn she gets. Now she says she'll vote for Nadar if she has to.

I'm pulling my hair out over this!

I think our Dem candidates have to address this divisiveness.

In the Philly area, two men got into a fight over this. One ended up stabbing the other.

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20080226_Ronnie_Polaneczky__Family_feud_adds_to_week_of_stupid_violent_acts.html

Excerpt:

Ronnie Polaneczky: Family feud adds to week of stupid violent acts
Philadelphia Daily News

SO YESTERDAY'S bizarre news was that two men had gotten into a violent fight over which Democratic candidate was more fit to be president: Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama.
The clash happened in a Collegeville home where Sean Shurelds, who favors Obama, allegedly tried to choke his brother-in-law Jose Ortiz, who likes Clinton.

Ortiz responded by allegedly plunging a kitchen knife into Shurelds' stomach.

I'm no Dr. Phil, but I figured that there had to be more going on between these two than the experience-vs.-charisma debate waging among Democrats torn between the two presidential candidates.

But Montgomery County District Attorney Risa Furman told me that, no, it appears this truly was a political argument, not a family feud (although analysis of the men's relationship history, she admitted, was "out of the jurisdiction of this office").

[No Passaran]

59. I saw that

that was crazy

[femrap]

74. I remembering reading about

a father and son in Missouri...the father got between the son and the football game on TV. He wouldn't move and the son shot him! He didn't die.

Crazy, huh?

[HeraldSquare212]

33. success, that's what happened.

[crispini]

34. Recommended!

:patriot:

[stellanoir]

36. People have been bereft of even remotely representative leadership

after 4 compromised elections and are REALLY frustrated is all.

Activate your psychic ignore function. It truly helps I swear.

[Mabus]

37. I hear you!

The vitriol around here is palpable. I'm a Democrat and I will vote for the Democratic nominee.

I am worried about who will appoint the next Supreme Court Justice;
I'm worried about who will appoint federal judges;
I'm worried about the environment;
I'm worried about the internet;
I'm worried because the focus is no longer on promoting marriage for EVERYONE but has degenerated into who can marry whom (shouldn't we focus on promoting faithfulness and loyalty to one's partner regardless of sexual orientation?);
I'm worried about going to and staying in unjust wars
I'm worried about a whole lot of stuff and, therefore I will vote for the Democratic nominee this fall.

K&R #5


Damn! I thought I hit post before I left to go start dinner.

[superkia]

38. Its a reflection of how our government has divided us as a people...

so we are powerless to them achieving their agenda. It has worked brilliantly! Everyone thinks that all democrats are pure and for the people, all republicans are evil and against the people, congress is weak instead of corrupt and in bed together and so on. Its ashame that so many have been dumbed down to this point at no fault of their own, the governments agenda has been the same for years. The elite learned from Hitler that you cant take over the world with force, you must do it slowly and their tool is money. Costs have been constantly rising for years and pay hasn't, they have a great plan and since they have ignored the constitution, we have no defense until its all or nothing.

Any one of us can be arrested without cause, given no attorney, thrown in a hole, tortured and held and there is nothing we can do about it. Its already being done to certain ethnic groups but America is so divided and selfish that not enough care to do anything. Just wait, its coming to a town near you. The UN is already talking about food riots, the US has now made a deal with Canada that in a case of martial law their troops and police can come here and help keep us in control and ours can do the same their...its ridiculous and pathetic that we as a people have allowed this to happen.


First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

[Hugin]

39. Hear! Hear! GA Democrat!

This is way out of hand.

[Mithreal]

40. The idea of trolls is reasonable enough BUT there is more to it than that

Some new people post to DU before understanding the community. I think understanding DU takes some time, I have only recently started to REALLY appreciate it and understand it.

Longer term folks occasionally forget that this is an open community with new members all the time that join for legitimate reasons but may not be as well-informed or seasoned politically.

Some of us, new and longer term members, say stupid things we don't mean occasionally. Many of us are strongly emotional people.

I understand frustration well. I would just plead for patience but I understand that patience is not always warranted.

I know this may be taken as rationalizing but I do not accept that there are as many trolls here as some people seem to post. That's not to say there aren't any.

[steven88]

44. AMEN (non-denominational) n/t

[Scurrilous]

42. Great post!

:thumbsup:

[blue horseshoe]

78. agreed

[freestyle]

45. Thanks for your service and your time at DU. Things changed.

I've been a member since 2002, and now I barely know what to say. So, I trudge through the garbage, from both sides, and leave without posting anything. 2004 was not nearly this ugly. Thanks for the reality check. Whether you support Obama or Clinton, we have to beat McCain in November.

[mmonk]

46. Things have become testy here.

Sorry you had to see it. Hopefully, it's frustrated people blowing smoke.

[NC_Nurse]

49. It's been pretty crazy in GDP lately. I hope people read your post and

think about it. Emotions are just running high, I'm hoping things will settle down once there's a nominee.

[caligirl]

50. Yeah, a lot of short sighted people not thinking about ending the war, just the race.

[Guava Jelly]

51. People will come around

Like a certain candidate said last week.
This is the silly season.

[marlakay]

53. I know this use to be first site I visited

and now I go to other sites to get info and try to hang on the ones least crazy. All are to one point but this site has gone nuts. Some days I look, am sad and leave. I keep thinking is it just a few stirring things up or what??

[PurgedVoter]

55. I remember when 1000 posts was a good thing to see.

Now it just double my suspicion of a freeper-baiter. When I see a long-termer like you, with a triple digit number, I can be sure that they are the real thing.

[No Passaran]

57. Let's just say I've been away for a while

every once in a while.
:hi:

But DU is really something else these days in terms of design. Some good content but not like the old days.

[Mithreal]

61. I am relatively new and hardly feel entirely confident to respond, but

there is a difference between campaign season and party-building periods. The building is never ending but campaigns come and go and I have seen longtime posters say that there was similar levels of over exuberance in previous campaigns. This presidential race has the first possible black president and woman president and I cannot see why SOME longterm DU members do not understand that this touches something very deep inside us and the level of emotion is much higher than during an ordinary election. At to that the sorry shape of our domestic and foreign policies and the pain that we as Americans are facing as a result of the destructive policies of a Republican government gone wild and you have a time that people are more than a little emotional, illogical, or unreasonable.

The campaigns will end and we will still have a party to strengthen and build. The wiser folks here understand that this too shall pass and that patience and understanding needs to overcome any despair at the actions of some that are overzealous here. Don't despair is all I am saying and welcome even the less wise folks here to be a part of this community and when things get hot hit em with HARD facts and correct bad behavior but don't despair at the bad, there is an overwhelming amount of good intentions here. Many of these overzealous people will want to be a part of our community and party building efforts if we endeavor to treat them with kindness and guide them into our way of thinking.

That said, I am in no way saying I am faultless, I have despaired and have been unkind a few times but I am trying to understand.

[bagimin]

72. Perfectly stated...

nice job.

[beezlebum]

120. well said n/t

[Tresalisa]

58. I'm a relatively new member, and I'm wondering the same - what's happened to DU?

And while I know it's gotten heated here with nasty posts by some against others' candidate, I don't get the "I'm not going to vote for __________ because ___________'s supporters are so nasty and vile"! WTF is that? A candidate's supporters posting on a forum have that much power? :shrug:

Vote for the candidate you support in the primaries, and vote for the nominee in the GE!

[Laelth]

60. They'll come around.

I believe that any Democrat who cares enough about this country to post here will vote for the Democratic nominee in November, regardless of what they may say now.

:toast:

-Laelth

[Mithreal]

62. Absolutely agreed : ) nt

[Jeffersons Ghost]

63. K&R ever since I can remember...

DU eats its own, when it comes to candidates. You should have been a John Kerry fan a while back!

[bagrman]

65. Well I would say that oue of the canidates is quite devisive.

[earth mom]

66. The problem is that there are only DINO dems left in the race. Edwards was our last hope. nt

[Martin Eden]

68. Many at DU have succombed to the attack-mode mindset

After 7 years of the worst president ever and constant battles against his criminal party, many here have adopted an attack-mode mindset in which the opposition is utterly bereft of redeeming quality. This has consistently held true with GW Bush and most of the Republican party, but unfortunately too many have stayed with this mindset when the "opposition" is the other Democratic candidate in this hotly contested primary.

Those who have strong opinions for or against are unleashing their accumulated outrage at the opponent -- even if the opponent is a Democratic candidate or a fellow DUer.

Emotion is trumping reason, and perspective is lost. People forget that the differences between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are miniscule compared to the differences between either of them and John McCain.

Yes, it's important which Democrat becomes president, but it's much more important that a DEMOCRAT becomes president.

Many Democrats in this forum have lost sight of this, and seem to have lost their senses.

[Der Blaue Engel]

71. I don't know

This place holds little joy for me anymore. :(

(And just for the record, while there is a small minority of both Clinton and Obama supporters who claim they won't vote for the other in the General, I don't believe it's limited to nor common among Clinton supporters.)

[emilyg]

161. !!!

[Der Blaue Engel]

179. ???

Sorry, I don't know what that means. :)

[mojowork_n]

80. OK, here's a thought, maybe we're taking on more than we realize,

...there's no "there", there. The Republican Party has ceased to function as a realistic, democratic alternative...

So where does all the debate play out?

Here.

[Forkboy]

81. You can't really judge DU as a whole by GD-P.

The reason GD-P was created in the first place was to contain this nastiness in one place. Meaning this ugliness was here already back then, only in GD.

The rest of DU is still the same place as always, with the addition of some great subforums to boot. GD itself is the same as always, if not actually a bit tamer than I remember it getting at times.

I have to say something in my defense on probably not voting for Clinton**. Not all situations are the same from state to state. I live in Mass. The race won't be close here at all, and that gives me options many others don't have, and allows me to vote how I see best without hurting the rest of you. It's a nice position to be in, and I feel no shame for it.

** If, and that's a big if, the race is close and Hillary is our nominee I will vote for her based on the SCOTUS only, and I hope those in states where it will be close will consider the same action.

[Blue State Bandit]

82. Thank you.

K-n-R

[izzybeans]

83. Too many people who watch network and cable news and take it as gospel.

Insert slogan A to counteract Slogan B Counter with vice versa. Did you see what Tweety said? Can you believe it? What an ass, right?

Right.

[H8fascistcons]

84. Here is part of the problem

both candidates we have to choose from are basically middle of the road republicans, not terribly liberal so there is a lot not to like about both Obama and Hillary. Bottom line, either candidate is probably less Fascist than any republican. Please, Please keep this in mind on election day and don't forget they will be replacing at least two supreme court justices...

[MrsBrady]

85. I will vote for the DEM nominee, whoever it is. n/t

[McCamy Taylor]

86. "Operation Brokered Democratic Convention" happened. A Karl Rove production.

See my journals. I have been writing about it since last year. You can see the many Freepers hard at work here at DU following the teachings of the elder statesman of dirty tricks Pat Buchanan as revealed here

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/watergate/stories/buchananmemo.htm

"COVERT OPERATIONS -- We should have as many of these down there as needed to conduct harassment exercises, and embarrassment exercises for the Democrats. They should have no connection at all with the GOP Observation Post, and should be directed out of here, as they have been in the past.

"They should be able to help put demonstrations together, get leaflets out, start rumors, and generally foul up scheduled events -- and add to the considerable confusion and chaos that will inevitably exist."

It continued:

"The preparation of attacks on one Democrat by another -- and 'endorsements' of one Democrat by another, which has to be repudiated, are examples of what can be done. Nothing should be done here, incidentally, which can seriously backfire and anything done should be cleared by the highest campaign authority. The Secret Service, it should be noted, will be all over Miami; and any activity will have to take into consideration their capabilities.

"We should guard here against a) anything which enables the Democrats to blame us for the mess which takes place in Miami Beach; b) anything which can be traced back to us and c) anything which is so horrendous as to damage us, if the hand is discovered."

The memo was labeled "CONFIDENTIAL"

It will all end when a nominee is selected, and then the RNC will go back to its traditional tactic of sliming the Democrat.

[Seabiscuit]

93. BINGO! GA Dem, this is all that's going on. Period. You're seeing a freep invasion on DU.

Check it out: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4763007&mesg_id=4763007

[happygoluckytoyou]

87. dont let the GOP bloggers get you down

the GOP would like nothing more than to split the democrats...

we all know that the dems are going to win.... by a lot.... dont let the gop bullshit entered here to make you think we arent ALL going dem ALL the way get you down

they are in their death march right now....

losing the white house

losing the party for the next 20 years

losing congress

MAKE CERTAIN YOU GET OUT ON NOVEMBER 4 AND VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRAT OF YOUR CHOICE...

DUE TO EXPECTED HIGH TURNOUT, REPUBLICANS ARE GOING TO BE VOTING ON NOVEMBER 5

[LSK]

88. do not read this forum (GDP)

GD still has good discussions about topics of the day and the other forums are as good as ever. This forum has become the bashing forum and there really is not much useful information here.

[IsItJustMe]

89. Hang in there guy. I am. It seems to be silly season. I will gladly vote for either of them. I

think folks get emotional about all this and let their mouths speak before they think. And there is always the troll factor. It's all good though.

[PretzelWarrior]

90. cool post. I've been here awhile too

it wasn't this bad in 2002...but it was close to this bad in 2004. However, it was pretty much clear by this point that Kerry was going to be the nominee. It is TIME for this dogfight to be over.

[ACanadianLiberal]

91. I am positively thinking it would be fine once the dust settles

I remembered this site was overwhelmingly occupied by John Edwards' followers. Lot of harsh words shot around. After John faded into the woods, Obama folks quickly took the place and this time they are shooting around with Cannons and even missles, while Hillary people, the solid respectible democratic base, are pretty much in a victim boat. It's understandable to their hard feeling. Those Clinton people here are good people. Many of them might always side with the weak automatically when they see somebody gets picked on. Believe me, they are the die-hard democratic party base you can count on in the general. To be honest, on the contrary, many Obama people concern me a lot if by any remote possibility that Hillary wins the nomination.

[Rowdyboy]

92. Just a bunch of nonsense that will be over very soon....

DU will be back and it will be like none of this happened

[Boudica the Lyoness]

95. Hello old timer

I have been here since April 2001. The good old days had some rough patches too. I got into some scraps with the Greenies and Nader people...
But I do know what you mean though. At least back then those idiots were in a different party.

[unapatriciated]

96. Nice post and thank you for your service.

I voted for Edwards but will vote Dem be it Obama or Clinton. I to wish all the in-fighting would stop. Does Ga stand for Georgia? New resident of this beautiful but very red state.

[No Passaran]

143. Beatufiul indeed

I miss GA but I don't think I'll be back. Life takes you to different places. I used to live in Savannah.

[Roxy66]

97. Wow...I havent seen your name in a while...Welcome Back!!

It's good to see a familiar "name (face)"...this place seems to have delved into the sewer...it's good to get a sense of sanity from an old familiar DUer.

[No Passaran]

144. Hey Roxy

It is good to see the "old guard". How are you?

[mrbluto]

98. Hold on a f*cking minute: Who had to *think* about voting for Hillary.

Some people seem to have a memory problem.

Remember when Michelle O. had to "think about" whether or not she'd vote for Clinton if she got the nomination?

It's not like it's just Hillary supporters who spouted this "I won't for for the Dem if it's not my favored candidate" bullsh*t.

It's a type of supporter that does this, one that both sides seem to have in abundance. I chalk it up to people who are green and new to the process - new users who don't understand the downside to flaming your opponents relentlessly. I don't think either remaining contender has an excuse for not reigning in their attack dogs in this case.

As an Edwards supporter (you know, the guy that did well in a primary or two on far less money (i.e. no corporate money) and then the MSM gave less coverage) I'm a bit disgusted with the whole process. Jeeze Edwards campaign is suspended and people from both the O & H camps seem to come out of the woodwork to to take a whack at him if you say anything nice about the guy - that is when they're not trying to say Edwards supports their guy. (on totally fabricated conjecture I might add.)

It's clear this party doesn't give a fair hearing to opinions and ideas that aren't in the triangulator's marketing handbook. (and if you think Obama's not a defacto triangulator you haven't been listening.) I never got a chance to vote for my candidate.

I'll vote for the Dem, but only because there isn't much of an alternative.

Please excuse my lack of enthusiasm.

[ExPatLeftist]

106. "I don't think either remaining contender has an excuse for not reigning in their attack dogs..."

Are you seriously advocating that the candidates scold some of their more lame supporters (who exist mostly in cyberspace) in the middle of a campaign?

Aside from the fact that this is a tiny percentage of people, likely of which the candidates are not even aware?

Also, these are not "their" attack dogs - that implies that they act under orders. These people are idiots acting on their own, and have nothing to do with either candidate. The candidates do not bear responsibility for the fact that a few dumbasses try to link themselves to a candidate...

Face it, the candidates simply do not have time to upbraid every idiot that claims to support them. The notion that either candidate would take that action, or is even aware of what is going on on some webpage, is extremely naive and arrogant, IMO.

[mrbluto]

195. If it matters in then general election - then yes.

Look - do I expect the candidates to condense out of the ether, grab every partisan idiot by the scruff of their neck and personally scold them? No.

It's a bit disingenuous to criticize my post on the basis that I suggest anything remotely like that.

They do have proxies - they can set a tone. I expect them to take some ownership of what their partisans do. They don't totally own what they do, but to not attach some responsibility is to create a morally hazardous enviroment where sock puppets bloom.

There's contention and then there's fighting - continued fighting hurts democratic chances in the general election. Responsible candidates will do what they can to preserve our chances in the general election and not give in to a race to the bottom.

BTW: I actually think Obama himself is doing a reasonable job of this. His supporters - not so good a job.

[No Passaran]

146. I'm not here calling out Clinton supporters

If it's the other way around I would still say it! I've supported Edwards and never got the chance to vote for him.

[khaos]

99. a write in is a vote for the write in..

[alphafemale]

100. 3rd ID? We're practically neighbors,

Sav, GA here.

Thanks.

[No Passaran]

147. Hey neighbour

I miss Savannah. Nothing but the best memories for me. I'm not in GA at the moment and I don't see myself going back.

[Major Hogwash]

101. Do you know what the difference is between a Democrat and a Republican in Georgia?

Neither do I - and I lived there for almost 3 years when I was in the Army!

LoL

Hello to GA Democrat!

When I was in Georgia, the Democrats loved Jimmy Carter as their Governor and hated him when he moved to the White House.

LoL

Do you know the best time to squeeze a Georgia peach?
When her Dad's not in the room!

LoL

McCain's history, man. We will beat him like a rented mule.

[99th_Monkey]

102. Stop whining, support your fav candidate & trust in the future

Heated debate and discussing ad nauseum the merits or flaw of the candidates is what the "Big Tent" is all about,
Last time I checked, I think that was called democracy.

Don't panic, take a deep breath. ahhh..

At least there's one party left that can "have it out" and still land on it's feet, and it's called ...
The Democrats, and I'm proud to be one right now, with two good candidates "having it out" for the
whole world to see.

Why pussy-foot in the primaries, and play all nicey nicey, when we KNOW the General is not going to
be that kind of game?

If you can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen .. but I hope you stay and champion your candidate,
give it your best shot, and trust the process.

[shaniqua6392]

105. We have to get a Dem in to end this war.

We also have to realize that we will have to push either of our Dem candidates really hard once they get in there to get us out. I don't care which one wins, but I am not so naive as to think that it will be easy to get us out of there. It just seems that everyone is playing my candidate is better than your candidate and we are not even asking them EXACTLY how they plan on getting us out. They should not get a free ride either and we need to be more demanding or our new President will end up being ineffective just like the Congress we voted in during 2006. We got nothing from them.

[Perry Logan]

107. Fifteen years of anti-Clinton smears have screwed up a lot of Democrats.

They actually talk and think like Republicans when they talk about the Clintons. That's what's happened to DU.

[ExPatLeftist]

109. "That's what happened to DU"

That assumes that the attacks and lameness are from one side. Flawed logic and completely untrue.

There are idiots on all sides.

[DeeDeeNY]

108. Thank you

Your statement injects some much-needed reality.

[JoePhilly]

110. Agree completely!!!

[beezlebum]

111. me too! n/t

[ColesCountyDem]

112. 'Gut check time".

Exactly!

:thumbsup:

[MethuenProgressive]

113. Well, for one it's now "cool" to compare the Clinton Campaign to the lynching of black men and boys.

I hate what some Obama supporters have done to DU.

[Marrah_G]

114. People on both sides have said it and they make me want to vomit.

Just as many if not more, anti-hillary folks have stated they won't vote for her if she wins the GE. You are hearing it more from the Hill side because the Obama side is certain they have won.

GD-P has turned into a nasty cesspool of rude and obnoxious people.

[Bullet1987]

116. Too many DLC Dems have joined in support of Clinton

[lark]

186. Come on now - silly season inded,

If you don't think that Obama is a DLC type democrat, you have really been drinking the kool aid. In every analysis, their politics are 94% same. Media just isn't jumping on him yet, but wait once he's the nominee we'll know every bad thing about him, whether it's true or not - just like the Clintons.

lark

[BrklynLiberal]

117. Some very important advice.

[Voice for Peace]

118. now I know why this post is on the greatest page. nt

[Pacifist Patriot]

119. I'd like to know when threats of property destruction and bodily harm became acceptable...

and not only that, widely lauded.

I agree with the sentiment that an abstention or vote for McCain is anathema to the very idea of the potential for peace and prosperty in our country. And I appreciate the way you expressed this with sound reasons rather than going off half-cocked.

However, I remain floored that anti-GOP thuggish language is not only being tolerated but celebrated. What in the world have we come to?

I'd like to know what the fuck happened to DU in that regard.

[ScreamingMeemie]

121. Agreed.

It is also sad that, when one states an opinion that they really find both candidates distasteful and are sick of playing pavement pounder for a party that doesn't represent what is, in that person's view, democratic values, one gets visciously attacked. With comments that go without deletion, with ridiculous siglines showing extreme immaturity, with general derisiveness. Now is the time, for me, to quit playing the vote for whomever the candidate is, when that candidates represents absolutely zilch that I care about. And no, I'm not running to the polls to vote for McCain. I donated to a local Dem candidate for state rep and my daughter is interning for her. I'm done with the national level. Grassroots all the way if we want to fix a broken party. If I get banned for that, so be it.

[Pacifist Patriot]

122. This year my energy is focused on...

a school board, state senator and U.S. rep race. Other than filling in the oval next to the candidate with a D by their name, I'm done with the presidential race other than encouraging people NOT to vote for McCain when the subject comes up.

[lark]

189. By not voting Dem in the national race

you are IMO voting for all war all the time. The Dem party makes me sick most of the time, it's so gutless I could scream, however - at least it's not our destroying the constitution and skewing the economy for the benefit of the 1%. It's highly flawed, but it's the best we've got at the moment. Sure, work to improve things, but if Dems don't vote in the national election, thousands of people could die unnecessarily in McCains' all war all the time universe.

I sincerely hope you will reconsider, hold your nose, and vote Dem anyway, for the sake of your children.

lark

[ScreamingMeemie]

191. Nope.

I've lost everything important except my children anyway. Who I vote for or not is not going to fix what is most important to them. It won't make the year go away. There are, truly, more important things than this. My life is these four walls. It has to be. This person (part of We the People) is taking a stand against being a sheep. They are all the same. Sorry...my money goes to grassroots. It ends there.

[kenfrequed]

123. What happened....

Well we let the media select the front runners and they held debates that put style over substance, so not only were the issues put to bed (thus cancelling out far more progressive candidates) but also the vast majority of Americans don't have any knowledge as to the slight differences in policy between the two candidates.

Therefore, without issue based differences all we have to decide on is based in minutia, scandal, sleeze, sexism and racism, and the echo chamber of the media.

[flordehinojos]

124. i am sorry that you got pulled in to iraq by bush's greed for oil.

i am one of those who will not for obama if he gets on the general election ticket.

i see him as a carbon copy of george w. bush, immaturity and all.

if hillary is not on the general election ticket, i will either votefor cynthia mckinney if she is on the green party ticket in this state, or, i will vote for hillary as a write in if the ticket allows for that.

we too, i know i did, lifted our voices against bushes. many times over and many times over it was ignored.

i am sorry that you got pulled into iraq by bush's greed for oil and that PTSD is now a part of what you are having to cope with.

however, i have had enough of bush's intimidations and fear mongering stories to be intimidated into voting for obama, a man who i do not believe in, just because some here believe that voting for clinton would bring about 8 more years of the same. i will not be intimidated into that. this is a democracy and we are each free to exercise our votes and our conscience. and, the way i see it is that people are desperate to stop hillary (senators and all who are against her) because, as happpened with janet reno here in florida who they wanted to stop from getting into the governor's mansion and they did, they know that hillary is precisely not for more of the same and that she will bring enlightened change to the nation. it is the senators and others (like those in the media that hillary has every right to complian about) who in expressing support for and voting for obama will actually be voting for more of the same.

[efhmc]

125. I avoid this place xcept for information in the Tx. forum about running

my precinct convention and who is speaking where. I used to love it here. Now the sexism, (always has been bad) covert racism and negativism are debilitating. I wanted Edwards (still do), voted for Hillary but not against Obama and will support him if he is the candidate.

[Baby Snooks]

126. Good Morning Vietnam...

"Soldiers will die for nothing if McCain is President."

The sad reality is you are correct. McCain is saddled with the lost war in Vietnam. And by golly, we need to win this one! And that sums up the problem with McCain. We cannot win a war that isn't even a war. And that was the problem with Vietnam. It was an illegal intervention. Not a war. Republicans for some reason simply cannot accept that.

As for the division in the Democratic Party, it is there in the Republican Party as well. We have two Americas. One is "by the people, for the people" and the other is "by the corporation, for the corporation" and those two Americas are to be found in both parties and that is why there is so much absolutely appalling hatred at times on all the forums. The "by the corporation, for the corporation" candidates are Republicrats in the end. They are just using the party label to convince people to blindly vote for them.

Republicans who are Republicrats are still partly Republican. Democrats who are Republicrats are still partly Democrat. Because they have to be.

The Republican Party, as opposed to just Republicans, is evil and so Republicans and Democrats need to remove it from the power it has obtained the past 28 years. It really is that simple.

One thing I have noticed is how so many Democrats have acquiesced to Nancy Pelosi. Hopefully they will not acquiesce to Hillary Clinton if she becomes president. Bill Clinton had to deal with a Republican Congress. Hillary cannot use that excuse.

My hope is that it is a moot point. No hateful rhetoric. Just the hope that Barack Obama will become the candidate. Because he represents hope. And that is something many simply do not see in Hillary Clinton. She represents where we have been. Barack Obama represents where we can go.

[kotsu]

129. It seems

that people have been caught up in the thought of my candidate no matter what, with a tendency to demonize the other as well as those who might have questions and concerns about the chosen one.

We have forgotten what it is we are fighting for and who we are fighting against. We are being led down yet another dead end path of in-party bickering, defensiveness, and divisiveness that will result in another lost chance to reclaim our country.

My thought is this. Let the primaries run their course. Let a candidate be chosen. Then push like hell to get that candidate elected with OUR mandate. Whoever gets the nod will be much more responsive and accountable to us than McCain.

Save the anger for the election...and give it to the right (pun intended) target.

[Magginkat]

130. Democracy at Work

I was going to ask why people who do not swoon over Obama are called hate mongers for simply pointing out the questions they have about him but then I saw Will Pitt's response which says it all.
.........................................
WilliamPitt

16. It was worse in 2004
Funny. People don't recognize democracy anymore when it's happening right there in front of them.

Democracy is messy and crazy. This is a GOOD THING. The elections that weren't messy in recent years...how'd those turn out?

Don't tell me, I already know.
..............................................

I have questions about both candidates. I just happen to have more about Obama because he is an unknown. Based on what I have seen in his voting records I don't find much of anything that matches what he is now preaching.

Of course I will vote for him if he is the nominee, which it looks like he will be, although I don't consider the way he got here to be much more honest than the way we got George Bush.

But I will vote for anyone over McCain.

[bpeale]

131. you served your country to preserve MY RIGHT to vote for whoever i want

even if that person is a write in. i served too and i know what i served for.

[pjt7]

135. Good post

Hillary supporters are very vested emotionally & want her to win at all costs. However, the voters have chosen Obama.

It's natural for her supporters to be pissed & say they will not support O.

With a little de-compression & some TIME to reflect on what's best for the country, I am 100% confident that the majority of her supporters will side with Obmama & give the Democratic party the White House.

[Pappy]

136. What happened was Hillary Clinton

If the Clinton's care anything about the Democratic Party they will step aside and stop the assault on their own party. Its obvious that people like Obama because he's about change and part of that change is rebuilding the party after the Clinton's just about tore it apart. Think about it, why did we get 8 years of republican rule after Bill stepped down, its because everyone was sick of all the scandals and bullshit, and Hillary's latest tirades against Obama is further proof of what a corporate hack she really is.

[barb162]

139. "assault on their own party"??

That's ridiculous. Both Obama and Clinton have a very close count of delegates and the next primaries will probably pull Clinton ahead of Obama. SO should Obama step down then to avoid an assault on the Party?

[Pappy]

149. Obama is about change, Hillary is about the status qou

Hillary represents the old school of politics and frankly I am sick of it and of her, she should be the one to step down. Obama is about the future, not the past. Hillary is about the past.

[barb162]

151. Change to what? Evangelical meet-ups chanting yes you can?

I'm not interesteded in that bullshit. I'll take the secular status quo.

[Pappy]

180. No, positive change

[lark]

193. Obama is about promoting himself

Change, hope

What does that mean? What are his programs, does he even have any, what good has he done for the country/world? He's all hat and no cattle, sound like someone else you know? He's so against the Iraq war that he's voted to fund it every time it's come up for a vote - doesn't sound anti-war to me. He's just another arrogant DLC politician who happens to have a nice smile and a good way with words. Bill Clinton took America to heights it hasn't seen before or since. Average folks did better because of him. He passed FMLA the first day or 2 he was in office which helps working people every single hour of every day, tell me what Obama has done of any substance at all? How can you trust someone who says he'll work with Repugs, bring us all together in a giant group hug. You think the Repugs are going to change, all of a sudden they will care about working people over the 1%? No way, and if he is telling the truth, this is a very scary proposition because it means absolutely no change to the way things are. Hillary will fight for us, she's my 3rd choice, not first by any means, but she is better than the alternative.

lark

[Pappy]

198. Obama's message of hope blows aways the Clinton's message of the same old shit

You should goto Obama's website where he talks about positive change and then you would get it. Hillary represents the past and Hillary gets all her money from her corporate masters just like Bush and thats why she won't be able to do anything but serve them. Obama is inspirational and makes you believe that there is a future we can all believe in. Goto his site if you want to know about the issues.

http://www.barackobama.com/index.php

[barb162]

199. Obama gets plenty of money from corporations and lobbyists

and through other back alley channels like lobbyist employees. Obama is inspirational TO SOME PEOPLE. Why didn't he, like Clinton, vote to cap high credit card interest rates?

[Pappy]

201. Your facts are not straight

Obama has specifically attacked Hillary for taking money from corporate interests and has said that he only gets his money from individuals. You need to listen to what he says and stop paying attention to what he does or what your think he does.

[DrZeeLit]

137. Bless you. I agree. I hope this stops soon. I hope we unite.

I've been absent here because I have not found the yelling and vehemence the least bit intellectually stimulating.
I'm with you on this.
Maybe once the decision is made, either way, every Democrat will wake up to the reality of the war, the economy, the Supreme Court, erosion of the Bill of Rights, torture, prisons, walls on the border..... all that we certainly CAN agree is NOT what we want for OUR country.

I'll be back as I used to be, for more than headlines, when I can feel some sense of a united front.

Thank you so much for speaking your mind, being true to your gut, and serving this country no matter what.

[NorthCarolina]

138. I Think That a Lot of the Angst you see

is a result of the field being whittled down (thanks to our public media) to a couple of Corporate friendly candidates that real Democrats aren't really enthusiastic about. There are of course those that cannot stomach the thought of another Clinton administration and view it as a throwback to the past and so are anti-Hillary to the hilt, but I figure that these same folks aren't exactly jumping with joy for their opportunity to vote for Obama either but will hold their nose and do so simply to prevent a Clinton or GOP White House. There is absolutely no denying that Clinton's ties to the DLC hurt her amongst many Democrats as well, and Obama's DLC ties are "suspect" but not formally documented since he requested his name be removed from their list of "up and comers" when he started actively campaigning for POTUS.

We of course did have better candidates in the running that were actually on OUR side, but we allowed the media to ignore and ultimately eliminate them at their will without so much as a whimper. They (the media) have successfully narrowed the field down to three "corporate safe" candidates that we all know in our hearts will largely maintain the status quo, and we as Democrats are left hanging on to the only remnant of "change" that we can now hope for, that being the thought that a vote for the Democrat will at least prevent the Supreme Court from becoming too overly conservative.

I have no doubt Democrats would be not only united but also enthusiastic if our nominee supported Universal Health Care instead of Universal Health Insurance, if our nominee called for canceling NAFTA outright and exiting the WTO instead of trying to inspire us with a promise of "revising NAFTA", if our nominee had a proven history of being 100% in support the working class during his/her lifetime and not just during campaign season, if our nominee called for an Immediate and Complete withdrawal from Iraq including no residual troops left behind, if our candidate openly and believably advocated and end to the use of war as an instrument of policy in America, etc. Yes, if we had a candidate of that caliber in our grasp right now I have no doubt there would be little infighting on this board and the forums would be lit up with one hell of a lot of enthusiasm for REAL CHANGE.

Once upon a time we had that very opportunity, didn't we...........

[kestrel91316]

140. What happened to DU, you ask?

Two words: DISRUPTER INVASION

IMHO the RW is terrified that Dems will take back the White House, so they have two separate camps here to wreak havoc - one to claim they support Obama and mercilessly attack Clinton - the other to claim they are Clinton supporters and mercilessly attack Obama.

Anytime you see a nasty, uncalled-for, immature, over-the-top, or snide attack on either, know that it's likely the poster isn't even a Democrat, so they don't care if their attack reflects poorly on "their" candidate's camp. Loyal Dems would NEVER stoop to this crap, IMHO (and if they do, they SHOULDN'T).

There are better ways to convince me to support your candidate than continually attacking mine.

[Catherine Vincent]

141. Obama people are saying if Hillary wins they won't vote for her.

You just don't see it as much because Obama is in the lead. Both sides are saying this.

But if you really want to blame anyone it should be the Clinton haters here. When the other 8 or so were in the race, you constantly heard "anybody but Clinton!" They were just getting started with all the hatred on this site. They're the ones who f'ed up GD-P.

[FATCATs]

145. HERE HERE !

Recommended and Commended

[stillrockin]

148. Here's hoping people will calm down and do the right thing.

[mistertrickster]

150. I've been here since the beginning too. It's always rough-and-tumble during the primaries

and then things quiet back down.

[tigereye]

152. thank you!

and thank you for your service!

[Inspired]

154. Why get emotional over things said on a message board?

The DU isn't really a cross sampling of anything significant....in spite of our self importance.

[MADem]

156. A bunch of new folks who are more "passionate" have joined the club.

They like to be aggressive.

Their rudeness is turning people off.

I wonder how many of them will be around after we have a nominee, presumptive or otherwise? I have a feeling you'll see a sea change after that happens.

I agree with what you're saying. It is pretty sucky. King Popeye believes in War Without End, AMEN.

[Number9Dream]

159. Democrats vs Repukes

Thank you for your service from an old Vietnam boonie-rat.

Someone once told me, “If you put 100 Republicans who only agree on one thing in a room, they’ll come out of that room working together to win and focused on that one thing."
“If you put 100 Democrats in a room who agree on 99 things and not on one, they’ll come out of that room fighting about the one thing they disagree on.”

Unfortunately, that often seems to be the case. However, come November, I'll be voting straight Democratic.

[redqueen]

160. A buncha whiny crybabies haven't learned. (nt)

[skater314159]

163. Thanks for speaking the truth.

I agree with you whole-heartedly.

Thanks man.
skater pi

[bdamomma]

164. one little reminder

just think about the Supreme Court, and the expected deaths of those Justices in the coming years do we really need anymore Scalias or Alitos or Roberts??? think about it.

I feel as though there should be a red alert on the GD-P saying ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK..

emotions are running very high here during an election year, my first being here at DU.

[Joey Liberal]

166. DU is a great place

Just because Hillary is going to lose is no reason to trash it.

[democrank]

167. Thank you for your service, GA Democrat

~PEACE~

http://icasualties.org/oif/

[humbled_opinion]

168. LOL what gets me is you have any hope

that come Jan 09 regardless of which Democrat wins they will be ending the war in Iraq... That is just way too funny.... Don't you know that even if Obama seriously wanted to end the war and bring the troops home it wouldn't happen. Politics and The Pentagon led Military industrial complex is a living breathing entity that is fueled by both Republicans and Democrats.....

I see some troops coming home... maybe even alot of troops but no all the troops... Maybe it will force the Iraqi politicians to fix their country and maybe it won't, maybe some actions on the part of the Iraqis to get their stuff together but full withdraw, no more soldiers dying in this Bushco Fiasco, nope America isn't even half way to the Vietnam breaking point in this debacle...

All we can do is hope that Obama will not be as fooled as Nixon was and that he can salvage some credibility for the U.S. over this...

I have hope but that just ain't gonna be enough. Here is some illustration for you.

President Obama today called for the immediate withdraw of all combat troops from Iraq. 3 months later scenes of chaos and genocide in the streets of Bahgdad. 3 months later Iran assumes control of the Iraqi Government and threatens Israel's existence the U.N. cannot contain the fall out. Israel is at open war with Iran and Syria, Nukes are used...

If you think Bush is the fall guy for the above scenario think again the Retards, when they lose in NOV are going to start by labeling everything that Obama does as in support of Terror and if we do happen to get attacked their propaganda will sell to the sheep and fear is a great motivator.

Sorry my opinion couldn't be more optimistic but hey I've always been a realist.

[grace0418]

170. Even some is better than none.

If your scenario turns out to be true, it's better than what McCain has in store.

[humbled_opinion]

194. Oh it is no doubt that either Hillary Or Obama

Offers a better solution for Iraq then Mcpain. But lets not get all cozy with thoughts that the violence will stop and all of our soldiers will come home right away. I think the message that there is change in the US will be a great motivator for the Iraqi people but again if they cannot solve their internal issues if Sadr ends his cease fire and goes to war against the Sunni's... Obama nor Clinton will pull us out completely it may become a mission of training and force protection vs. a direct offensive issue but we will see.

[grace0418]

171. I'm tired of soldiers and civilians dying for lies, blood lust, power and oil.

I'm not overly optimistic about that coming to a halt anytime soon even with a Dem president. But McCain is a sure thing in terms of more war, more lies, more greed, more death.

[humbled_opinion]

196. Doesn't it just sound insane that you have to state in fact

That you are tired of human beings dying for lies, blood lust, power and oil. What is wrong with people that cannot see simple truth?

[grace0418]

197. I do not know. Sometimes I feel like we've fallen into some alternate reality.

It makes me really sad.

[Skittles]

172. they have forgotten who the enemy is, GA Democrat

they have been completely, thoroughly played by the media

[bjobotts]

173. What happened to you? Why think a couple people rep. the many?

[bjobotts]

174. I've read O people say the same if Hillary wins...too few to matter.

[bjobotts]

175. Why would you even post such a petty whine? I've seen the future...

McBush loses in a landslide. Encourage people to vote for McCain if they want...it won't matter...80% of voters will vote for the dem nominee. We've had it with the republican disaster he represents. Campaign blackmail works the same as emotional blackmail...if you don't do what I want then I will do something horrible to punish you. Next time somebody says, "...then I'll vote for McCain", tell them you'll drive them to the polls.

[Barrymores Ghost]

176. Rock of the Marne, Dogface!! (K&R)

I tend to believe that we all want this long, national nightmare to end so badly, and that we are all so wholly convinced that we have the solution in our respective candidates, that we are overlooking the need for tempered, mature but passionate discussion and are instead giving way to histrionics and desperation in the face of losing any perceived advantage. This, of course, plays directly into the hands of the GOP.

At the end of the day, we will need to present a strong and unified front. Is that possible, given the back-biting that we've seen here? Yeah, sure...at least I think so...but there's no time like the present for all of us to take a deep breath, think about what we are saying and how we are saying it, before hitting that "SEND" button, and recognize that we all want what's best for our country and that we have the answer, not the Repugnicans.

Thank you for your service to our country, friend.

B.G.: 1/321st F.A., 101st AB Div.; 2/41st F.A., 3rd I.D., '84 - '87

[enki23]

178. we were all united? somehow, i missed those happy times.

i don't remember always being particulary "united" and i've been on DU since 2001 as well.

[No Passaran]

200. we've never been more divided

that's for sure