In many ways, my heart goes out to Hillary Clinton.

[Liberal Veteran]

First of all, let me be very clear. I am supporting Obama and that has not changed.

However, I do think that Hillary got a raw deal mostly in that she had essentially been targeted for the better part of a decade by the right wing in their disgusting constant attacks on Bill and she was just a very good proxy target for the right wing.

She has at times managed to piss me off, but in all honesty, I think she's a decent person with values not all that far removed from my own.

It is painful to watch her have to fight so hard in this primary and she's held up fairly good. In many respects I think she deserved better because she's not just dealing with her own baggage and it gives a definite advantage to Obama.

With any luck, we'll see fences mended when the dust settles and these two will find a way to work together to bring our country back in the direction we need to go.

[MonkeyFunk]

1. What bugs me

is seeing so many of those right-wing attacks being repeated here. It's unfathomable to me.

[tekisui]

2. I don't like the RW attacks or the sexism.

[Trajan]

4. Yeah ... Me too ....

I feel it is rather low to bring the shit in from Rightwingerville to fling at our own ....

In fact, it pisses me off pretty seriously ....

I hate assholes ....

[Recursion]

22. The problem is some of them were valid, IMO

For example, the Foster crap is just that, crap, and I haven't really seen it here except for a couple of threads asking for "how do we debunk the Foster crap?"

Bringing up some of the fundraising/money questions... well... I don't know if the RW was too far from the truth when they made some of those charges (and if you think the attacks on her in the 90s were bad, wait until a court pries the Clinton library donors list out of their hands). I think she's shown some seriously bad judgment about how and from whom she raises money, over the course of about 3 decades now.

[MonkeyFunk]

30. Why would a court get the donor list?

Who's suing whom? Why?

The fact is, you can give money privately to non-profits. Nobody can get Planned Parenthood's donor list. That's private, and rightly so.

I can't imagine circumstances under which a court would release that list.

[Recursion]

31. Waxman is trying to subpoena the list

Because it seems to all come from either Riyadh or Mumbai, and he's worried it's a campaign contribution by another name.

[MonkeyFunk]

32. Got a link?

All I can find is that it was investigated in 2001. It was part of a deal with Dan Burton to investigate other things.

[Recursion]

34. Ask and it shall be given...

A) I was wrong about it being a "subpoena" technically, on further inspection, he's trying to change the oversight process to allow the committee access

B) Here's his page on it:
http://oversight.house.gov/story.asp?ID=1183

The change is awaiting Senate action (and seems to have been dead for a year now).

It started in 2001 with allegations that Mark Rich bought his pardon with promised library contributions. Waxman has since outlined several possible avenues of abuse (the hearing transcripts on his page are pretty good), and has expressed concern about the number and nature of foreign donors to the Clinton Presidential Library.

[MonkeyFunk]

36. OK

so no court is going to release the library donor list.

This is how smears work. You alleged that a court would be releasing the list - indicating that there was some sort of trial under way, and intimating that there was something illegal about the Clinton Library donations.

In point of fact, Waxman wants to change the oversight of these libraries. That's a very different claim altogether.

It's a pretty big leap over the truth to transform one into the other.

[Recursion]

39. Court, committee; I'm not really seeing the difference

Waxman's committee wants the list. He's said why. Bill and Hillary don't want him to have it. That the actual legal instrument involved is legislative rather than judicial is hardly to the point; what matters is that there is (once again) some dangerous and/or embarrassing fundraising information that the Clintons want to hide.

[pnwmom]

26. Me, too, MonkeyFunk.

It's appalling.

[stillrockin]

3. You can bet we'll see her histrionics in GOP tv ads this summer/fall.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

5. I didn't like the way she was packaged in this election

[Trajan]

9. I am betting you are really enjoying ...

How the Republicans have packaged the intentional reaming of American families these last 8 years much better ....

I swear .... Where is the perspective ? .. The priorities ?

[mtnsnake]

6. Your post is like a fresh oasis in the middle of a sea of shit

K&R! :thumbsup:

[DianaForRussFeingold]

23. Wow! I love the ops post too! K&R

:spray: you sure have a great way with words! :thumbsup:

"like a fresh oasis in the middle of a sea of shit"

I'm saving this and I hope you don't mind me using it from time to time... :kick:

[mtnsnake]

24. haha. Nope, I don't mind at all

:)

[peace13]

7. Your pain should be soothed by the kindness that Obama

showed Hillary this evening. I think he turned all four cheeks this evening. Peace, kim

[Cha]

28. That was the very best

thing for him to do..you don't kick someone when they're down..even someone who's been taunting you.

[peace13]

38. I know that, the people I watch the debates with tell me that too.

My comment was not a complaint so much as a joke. I do admit that sometimes I wish that he wouldn't be so gracious. I saw him poke back at McCain today at the rally in Columbus. I got some gratification there. Peace, KIm

[JohnnyLib2]

8. I think her stock will rise across time, with or without the White House.

Who else, really, has come even close to her role in the U.S. and internationally? And there are many more years to come....

Recommended

[emilyg]

10. What a lovely post. Thank you.

Had to double check and make sure I was on DU.

[PretzelWarrior]

11. agreed. kicked. recommended.

I hope she can do more in the Senate than she has thus far and build a powerful leadership role.

[DemGa]

12. This is good insight

But you must know that Obama used the effects of those right-wing attacks against Hillary.

"Democrats will win in November and build a majority in Congress not by nominating a candidate who will unite the other party against us"

"But I don't think there's any doubt that the Republicans consider her a polarizing figure."

[PretzelWarrior]

15. you expect him not to state facts?

he's been quite direct and cut through the bull on so much else....he just called it like people see it. kinda like her going after his inexperience.

[DemGa]

16. Obama used the effects of the most divisive, disgusting attacks that Dems have suffered

to his advantage against a fellow Dem? Yes, all in a day's work I suppose.

[Liberal Veteran]

18. Truth to tell, it was one of the factors in a very tough decision between these two.

And it's one of the reasons I felt compelled to post. It is totally unfair that she has to rise above the shit thrown at her since 1992 by those evil creeps on the right that were hellbent on bringing her husband down.

Am I proud of that? Not in the least. I wish it wasn't an issue at all. But it also isn't something I am comfortable ignoring.

I'd like to think I am even handed in that I considered whether our country's racism would destroy Obama's chance's at winning the election.

In the end, it wasn't the smears of the right wing that made my decision. The real tipping point is that the public seems primed for change and for many people, that means breaking this chain of Bush, Clinton, Bush.

My hope is that someone fairly new on the scene will change the course of our country so that we aren't shoveling last winter's snow.

I just feel badly that someone who I feel is sincere in her beliefs has to overcome obstacles that to a large extent, weren't of her own creation or even based in reality.

[YvonneCa]

19. Very well said. Thank you. n/t

[mrreowwr_kittty]

29. Like it or not, it's the truth.

The GOP was salivating at the prospect of running against Sen. Clinton. They knew that more people would come out to vote against her than any other Democrat. Everything the OP is saying is correct. It's unfair. It's bogus. I know. But it's the truth. That's why I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why Clinton supporters thought she was the most electable candidate.

[democrattotheend]

13. Mine too

I am an Obama supporter and at times Clinton pisses me off, but sometimes I feel like it will make me sad if she concedes. I have my reservations about a joint ticket, but sometimes I think it's a shame we have to choose between them.

[JeanGrey]

14. As I've said before, she put up with Bill and now she isn't

getting the prize. That should be a lesson to others that will come after her.

[scheming daemons]

25. Maybe she SHOULDN'T have put up with Bill... that would've showed strength and maybe she WOULD...

..have gotten the prize.


"Stand by your man" when he is a lying, philandering, adulterer who doesn't value his wedding vows is not a sign of "strength".


But maybe that's just me.

[JeanGrey]

33. No I agree totally. It hurt her badly.

She should have kicked him to the curb.

[WinkyDink]

35. It might be just you. Her daughter was young, her values didn't include divorce, and, frankly,

world leaders (male) often have this particular "perk" of office.

[JeanGrey]

37. Is that a typical male response? It is nonsense.

I had a family member who put up with a bs husband for thirty years for the same reason and now he is trying to take everything and kick her to the curb.

Hillary did it for power, not for love. And it blew up in her face.

[northamericancitizen]

17. Recommended. This thread rises the level civility needed on DU

[anonymous171]

20. Mine too.

Obama supporter here. She was too tied to Bill's campaign, which has been a favored target of derision for RWer's.

[Ikonoklast]

21. Bill really hurt her, but that was probably Penn calling that shot

The surrogates did more damage to her campaign than Hillary ever did to herself.

Makes me wonder.

[UDenver20]

27. 100% AGREE

I couldn't agree more. She's a scrapper, a fighter, and one tough cookie...

She's reviled by the right for no good reason, except that they love to demonize her. She even stook with Bill through his missteps. If the GOP were the party so all about "family", one would think that would actually endear her to some of them.

She might be a type-A, get-it-done-or-get-out-of-my-way person with an agenda - but isn't that what we've needed? Isn't it (at least one form of) leadership? Isn't that how you win elections?

If you've ever lost an election for as much as student council, it feels like you've been punched in the stomach. Imagine that times 100... times eleven states in a row. Now half the Democrats in the country (of whom she's been dubbed the unofficial leader by the right, is throwing her hard work, loyalty, and all the crap she's taken for us (during some pretty vicious years, btw) from the right) back in her face. And yet she works hard and soldiers on.

I'm an Obama supporter, too - but I'm actually starting to like her more and more. She's tough, and she's a fighter. I admire that.

I hate to see either of these two rock-stars lose...

I asls can't wait to see the right curse themselves when they realize how much more of a centrist she was than they gave her credit for being...