what's stronger,racism or patriarchy?

[Algorem]

racism-The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.


patriarchy-A social system in which the father is the head of the family and men have authority over women and children.
A family, community, or society based on this system or governed by men.

[katandmoon]

1. I vote for patriarchy! It cuts across all racial lines.

[Levgreee]

6. and racism cuts across all genders. Your point?

[katandmoon]

42. Uh--- that WAS my point. Woman make up over half the human race.

Patriarchy infests every racial group. Women are second class citizens in each and everyone one of them. Patriarchy trumps racism every time.

[Cant trust em]

2. patriarchy is my vote

Too bad you didn't start this as a poll. That would make this all sciencey and on the up and up.

[Levgreee]

3. Racism - it has inspired mass killings, among many other things, of course

[laconicsax]

8. And patriarchy has inspired massive numbers of killings, among other things, of course.

[Levgreee]

11. I cannot think of as many mass killings as has been done against COUNTLESS races

Native Americans

indigenous people by Columbus and explorers

Slavery and killing of black men and women

etc. etc. I could give dozens of more examples

[sueragingroz]

15. *sigh*.... i have some links for you

http://www.abanet.org/domviol/statistics.html

http://www.ncadv.org/resources/Statistics_170.html

Or here:

http://www.endabuse.org/resources/facts/

excerpts from articles)

Estimates range from 960,000 incidents of violence against a current or former spouse, boyfriend, or girlfriend per year1 to three million women who are physically abused by their husband or boyfriend per year.2

[stillcool]

19. I was going to say...

that they were both deeply ingrained in our society, by our society. Then I think of the prison population, the still visible segregation, and the attitudes of hatred that still linger. And I realize there is no comparison.

[laconicsax]

21. Do you think that domestic violence is in no way related?

An estimated 3 million women are victims of domestic abuse each year. On average, 3 or more women are murdered each day by their husbands or boyfriends. That's in this country alone.

Institutionalized sexism is a staple of all modern civilizations.

[anigbrowl]

46. Without disputing that...

it's not organised in the same way that genocide is (although women tend to suffer extra in genocide). I think it's pointless to get into numeric pissing contests like this because most of the time it means comparing highly disparate phenomena.

[laconicsax]

56. Yeah

I realized that after I posted.

[Bluerthanblue]

29. If all women were killed off, human kind would end- not so if people

of different 'racial/ethnic' backgrounds.

peace~

(both suck by the way)

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

30. The question was which is STRONGER, not deadlier

Patriarchy is clearly stronger, but racism is deadlier.

The entire history of humanity is a series of genocides... and most of the really big ones were way before history.

Modern Asians were one small group that expanded and killed everyone else in Asia, who were primarily similar to Australian natives before the one Chinese group busted out.

Africa had a bunch of peoples who were wiped out in the Bantu expansion.

Modern caucasians were one group that wiped out everyone from western India to Spain.

The American Indians who Europeans wiped out had themselves wiped out other groups, and so on back to the beginning of man.

There was no open land... it was a full of people. Everyone is where they are because they killed everyone who was there first.

And it all comes from the fact that ethnically different people are not seen by each other as being human in the same way. There is your tribe, and then there's everyone else in the world.

[Bluerthanblue]

33. Patriarchy will never succeed in destroying all females, because

that would be suicide.

That makes patriarchy less 'strong'- than racism. Because racism can continue without any destruction of the agressors foundation.

Both are wrong.

peace~

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

37. Patriarchy doesn't seek to destroy all women any more than slavery sought to destroy all Africans

I am assuming that "strength" means persistence, universality, magnitude of effect in shaping society.

Patriarchy is more fundamental.

Racism has killed more people, of course, but I don't take that to be the measure of strength.

It is suggestive that black men gained the vote in America at a time when it was quite fashionable for white people to consider black people natural inferiors. Yet 19th century white men granted the franchise to men they considered almost a sub-species 50 years before granting it to their own wifes and daughters.

[Bluerthanblue]

40. legally black men may have gained the 'right' to vote, but very many were

prevented from exercising that right until long after the suffragette movement.

Many Black women didn't have the freedom to vote that white women did until years after white women.

People don't understand this reality- I had loved ones who experienced it. It wasn't until after the civil rights movement that the right to vote actually became real for many people.

As for the "strength" issue- I'm not sure I understand the bottom line.

"Worse"- was the question. (or I thought it was) Some could argue the point that continuing to live under a 'racial' or 'patriarchal' domination would be a fate worse than death, but death seems pretty final to me.

peace~

on edit- I obviously didn't read your post very well- I thought your question was which is 'worst'-
My apology. I'm not sure I know how to answer the 'stronger' question.

:hi:

[indimuse]

36. woman. have been abused (STILL ARE) in many many cultures!

since the beginning of time...


MAN has "inspired" mass killings among other things...such as abuse...etc..

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

4. Patriarchy by far... this is not even a debatable question

(Your question is which is stronger, not which is more damaging.)

The first 95,000 years of human society had entirely black leaders.

Black MALE leaders.

(Fun fact: The cave paintings at Lascaeux and Altamira were executed by black people. The pictures in textbooks of European Cro Magnons are usually white, but they were not in reality. The cro magnons who wiped out the neanderthals in Europe were still black-skinned. We know that they hadn't been in Europe long enough at the time to slowly lose pigment so they could get more Vitamin D from sunlight.)

Racism (and/or tribalism) is a product of interaction between ethnic groups.

Patriarchy is written into human nature at a very deep level, and exists within ethic groups... it marks even the smallest groups of humans.

THOUGHT EXPERIMENT: At some point in the future, everyone will be the same race... a world of handsome coffee colored inter-mixed people. When race no longer exists, we will still be men and women, with ingrained attitudes about men and women.

We were men and women before race existed, and will be after race is gone.

[Cant trust em]

13. I agree with patriarchy

but I think that it is debateable. Racism has resulted in organized violence and death. I'm not sure it's been that way for patriarchy.

[KittyWampus]

28. you've forgotten goddess worship preceded patriarchy.

[Bluerthanblue]

31. indeed it did- men are bothered that women are the 'creators'-

it is an age old angst.

peace~

[laconicsax]

5. Time to get the old ignore list ready for new entries

:popcorn:

[sueragingroz]

7. patriarchy

It's not socially acceptable to be racist anymore...

It is still very socially acceptable to be sexist.

Has the ERA passed? NOOO!

There's no contest.

[goldcanyonaz]

9. Right on!

[Cant trust em]

16. unfortunately that is evidenced every day here

in DEMOCRATIC underground even. Sexism is interesting because it seeps in and infects people who normally aren't prone to other types of xenophobia. Such a fascinating dynamic from a sociological perspective.

It's been very difficult as an Obama supporter to see some of the nastiness that has been leveled on Clinton. That being said, when someone tried to call me a sexist because I wasn't supporting Clinton, that wasn't very fun either.

[DURHAM D]

24. Yep. eom

[goldcanyonaz]

10. Patriarchy.

[sueragingroz]

12. patriarchy is also the driving force behind homophobia

Men can't be seen to be girly or submissive and women can't be seen to be able to have a sexual identity without the participation of a man.

[KittyWampus]

14. Neither, the strongest societal force is man's love of sweet tasting food

[JVS]

35. Stop Dairy Queen RIGHT FUCKING NOW!

[PurityOfEssence]

17. Patriarchy; it's universal

Keeping the wimmenfolk down's the one thing all cultures and religions seem to accept...

[Forkboy]

18. Patriarchy, but they both suck equally.

[FrenchieCat]

20. I don't know which is worse,

But I do know that not long ago they used to hang Black men from trees simply for even looking at White Women.

[goldcanyonaz]

27. How about female genital mutilation?

link for those unfamiliar;

http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/fgmintro.php

[Bluerthanblue]

34. which was also something done to BLACK women-

what is your point?

[goldcanyonaz]

38. 130 million women worldwide have been affected. It is also practiced in the middle east.

It's women having this done to them, what part was difficult for you to understand?

[Bluerthanblue]

41. we also are raped, abused, and die in childbirth- but how

does this have anything to do with Lynching???

peace~

[LizW]

Neither stronger, but different

Racism is evil and inspires acts of discrimination and violence. It is more open, less easily hidden or denied. (very generally speaking)

Patriarchy is evil and also inspires acts of discrimination and violence, but is more of an undercurrent that is capable of being ignored as the cause of evil acts.

[AGirl]

22. patriarchy "race is a social construct" "sex is real"

[Cant trust em]

23. It stinks that we even have to make these arguments

[silverweb]

25. They're *both* far stronger than they should be.

What's your point?

Is it that we should giving priority to defeating one rather than the other by basing our votes solely on gender versus race in this primary?

I'm not that stupid, thank you.

[Bluerthanblue]

26. we all have to interact with people of the other sex- people of other races

may never interact with someone of a different race.

That makes racism worse. IMO which is all anyone can answer you with.

Everyone has some interaction with a father, brother, husband, or friend of the male sex.

And as much as that may be a 'negative' or 'positive' experience, it is a connection and a bond that is NOT automatically true with race.

peace~

[JVS]

32. I see way more families headed by women than families with parents of different races

If racism were firing on all 8 cylinders, we'd see no inter-racial couples.

If patriarchy were firing on all 8 cylinders, we'd see no family unit without a male head.

[democrattotheend]

39. People are more open about being sexist, but

I still think racism might run even deeper, especially among older voters. I think that's one of the reasons Obama continues to lag among seniors, combined with the fact that older women are more likely to support Hillary because they want to see a woman president in their lifetime. As a young woman, I am fairly confident I will see one in my lifetime, but I can understand why older women feel the way they do. Although my grandmother supports Obama...so does my grandfather, and my parents.

[LadyVT]

43. Patriarchy, obviously...

[cooolandrew]

44. There was that black woman tortured by racists I'd say racism, is still an issue.

....and not just tortured by men there was awoman involved too. Then we have Katrina slow response in primarily afircan american areas and more response in Cali wild fires. Is Barack vetted yes , he is black in America, so you can rest assure he can defend himself..

[cooolandrew]

47. Then the case of Cho driven half crazy by racist torment,his crime was wrong but so was the bullying

[cooolandrew]

48. Has anyone trashed a HRC office like Baracks was today ...nope Ok.

[EmilyAnne]

45. I don't think it matters. I've never known of a racist who wasn't also sexist.

I've also never known of a man who abused animals who didn't also abuse females. I've never known a homophobic who wasn't also sexist and racist. Etc, etc. They are all wrong, they are all a sickness, they must all be combated. We democrats are chiseling away, bit by bit, at these institutions. Or, at least I hope.

[ContinentalOp]

49. I think casual sexism is more prominent than racism but racism is more systemic.

Most personal racism has become pretty subtle and covert while misogyny still hangs right out in the open in terms of people's personal behaviors and comments. But systemic racism in the United States is a far greater problem than any systemic sexism.

Women still suffer from lack of equal pay but there is nothing on the level of a Katrina for women. Women are not incarcerated in disproportionate numbers, they are not harrassed by the police, and they were never the targets of segregation or lynching in this country simply due to their sex. Women got the right to vote in 1920 and as far as I know they didn't face anything like the jim crow laws that kept African Americans away from the polls well into the 60s.

[NOLALady]

53. All women did not get the right to vote in 1920.

Some had to wait until the '60s.

[ContinentalOp]

54. Oh, good point.

:blush: Sorry.

[nemo137]

57. Black men had their right to vote stripped from them in the 1870's

and are still much, much more likely to go to jail on a felony offense and lose that right to vote. Do you really want to make this the sole definition of who has it worse in this country?

[ContinentalOp]

66. I think NOLAlady

was pointing out that I left out black women when I said that women got the right to vote in 1920.

[Cheeseburger Walrus]

50. False dichotomy...

I reject the premise. Both are deadly serious, yet may not be thrown together in such a cartoonish manner. This is not meant to be antagonistic to the poster, but such weighty issues are in need of serious contemplation and overlap incestuously during continuous dialog.

[anonymous171]

51. Both.

[Colobo]

52. Who's had it worse in America: white women or black men?

Think about it.

[avrdream]

55. Right now, in America, PATRIARCHY!

Isn't it bloody obvious?

[casus belli]

58. Step right up and choose your abomination. n/t

[NDambi]

59. Both cause harm and push inferiority...both are eqaul in my eyes..it isn't about degrees

[LWolf]

60. Patriarchy. nt

[susankh4]

61. Definitely Patriarchy

It is enacted into our marriage laws, our taxation system, how we allocate benefits to our children.... every aspect of public life is dictated by it.

OTOH.. our laws forbid discrimination based on racism.

Racism will be overcome long before our reliance on the patriarchy is.

[Marrah_G]

62. Patriarchy is the stronger of the two

If people were to truly look at the suffering of women every second of every day in this world they would be horrified.

People speak out about Racism... people look away when the victim is a woman.

Picture this: Two people is being beaten... one is having "fucking nigger" screamed at him, the other is having "fucking bitch" screamed at her. Both words go hand and hand with violence. Just because they are sometimes used in non violent ways does not take away that fact.

Patriarchy is stronger because it is more accepted. It is more easily brushed off. It does not carry the outrage that racism does for most people.

Patriarchy has real staying power.

[Skidmore]

63. The two are intertwined and not mutually exclusive.

[Annces]

64. Patriarchy

I think it is harder to disentangle yourself from it. It involves your grandparents, parents, sisters, brothers, children, bosses, whereas racism is more often a schism between groups.

[Scout]

65. patriarchy .... racism has its roots there, too. n/t