The vast, VAST majority of America is neither racist nor sexist

[mudesi]

Frankly, I'm tired of how easily people are influenced by this media created perception that most people are racist/sexist.

It's simply not the case. Certain people in positions of power (politicians, judges, CEOs, police) who happen to be racists or sexists (or both) certainly make it seem like most of society is racist and sexist, and the media certainly loves to keep the country divided and paranoid, but that doesn't make it so.

We have the two Democratic front runners, one a black man, the other a woman, and millions of people voting for them. John Edwards would have easily beat them if it were true that most people are racist or sexist, whether the media ignored him or not.

Think about it this way: Make a list of all the people you have known all of your life. How many of them are truly racist or sexist? Most of them? Some of them? Maybe just a few?

[Hoof Hearted]

1. Wow. What utopia do you reside in? n/t

[Straight Shooter]

2. Funniest thing I've read all day, in a sad kind of way. n/t

[theHandpuppet]

66. I was about to say the same thing.

Guess you beat me to the keyboard.

[writes3000]

3. Disagree on one point...

I agree that most people don't THINK they are sexist or racist but when push comes to shove, many if not all people have some remnants of sexism and racism within them.

I think I'm about the most fairminded person I know. My best bosses have been women. But I still bet that there are preconceived, biased notions I have that are just plain sexist.

The real measure is whether I let those notions rule me or if I let my brain and my greater beliefs win the day.

Just my take.

PS - Women have preconceived, biased notions about men, too.

[robbedvoter]

4. Lemme guess: white male?

[Umbram]

39. Congrats, that was a racist and sexist question.

Maybe you shouldn't judge a person based on the color of their skin or their sex.

Seems to me the OP is allowed to be wrong (which I think he or she is) without reference to his or her race and gender.

[DemBones DemBones]

40. More of an observation that no woman or person of color

would assert that the vast VAST majority of Americans are not sexist or racist, as I believe the OP said. He definitely said "vast, VAST majority."

His profile says he's male, too.

[Umbram]

42. So, sometimes it's OK to disagree with a point based on the speaker's race and sex, gotcha.

Try this on for size:

"How much racism and sexism a person perceives can easily be dependent on how much is actually directed at that person, and also the environment and social status a person has. Is it possible that you aren't on the receiving end very much, and therefore underestimate the amount of racism and sexism that exists?"

Wow, a question that merely points out that different people will experience different amounts of racism/sexism and those experiences can mistakenly lead to assumptions as to how much exists WITHOUT attacking the speaker based on his/her race and sex.

[DemBones DemBones]

59. I did not say that. YOU attacked the poster who

suggested that the OP was a white male.

I made the observation that a woman or black person would be unlikely to make the statement that the "vast, VAST majority" of Americans are not sexist or racist.

Women and blacks know that sexism and racism exists. Of course some have experienced more, some less, but I doubt you can find a woman who hasn't experienced sexism or a black person who hasn't experienced racism.

[robbedvoter]

48. Note gender become "undeclared" since this - although I did NOT check the profile

whwn I made my assumption. As you said, I went by - "only someone completely sheltered...."

[DemBones DemBones]

60. Interesting. I checked after the thread had

been going for some time and it was "male" then. I thought I'd give the OP the benefit of the doubt and see if he'd listed his gender.

Of course, he could be a self-hating woman who pretended to be a man. . . :eyes:

[againes654]

5. Ummm I have met more than my fair share of racists, and a few sexists

including my ex-husband which happens to be both. Matter of fact I was at the tire shop today with a very racist man that didn't want to talk to the Mexican mechanic.

[mudesi]

6. Now quantify it

Ex husband, guy at the tire shop.

That's two. Now count how many people you know who are not racist or sexist.

Divide the first number by the second number, multiply the answer by 100, and that gives you a percentage.

For some reason, I get the feeling you know more non racists and non sexists, as do I, and as do the rest of us.

[againes654]

15. I didn't say those were the only 2

You know nothing about me or my experiences. I happen to live in a very very racist town, where the sheriff instructed his "clan" to pull over any 2 or more people of different race that were in the same car, "to see what they were up to". This was last year just in case you were wondering.

My former boss once told me she wanted to move to a town that had "fewer chocolates in it".

I actually don't have the time, energy, or need to explain to you how many racists/sexists I do or don't know.

YOU may not know many, but please don't speak for the entire country. There are pockets of very very racist/sexist areas in this country.

Ask the people of Jena LA what they think of your assumption.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

7. OMG You Went With TWO Vasts? Two? You Didn't Think One Was Ridiculous Enough? But TWO Vasts?

In my opinion, that made it even that much funnier!

:rofl:

[mudesi]

11. Vasts?

I can honestly say I don't know what you're talking about this time. What is a "vast"?

(Edit: I forgot the sarcasm tag. :sarcasm:)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. Two Of Them. Two!!! Reallllllly Drills Your Point Home. TWO Of Them!

:rofl:

[Chovexani]

23. Well, that first vast just made it opinion.

The second one makes it fact.

[Redstone]

26. Indeed. Excellent commentary.

Redstone

[MannyGoldstein]

8. Everybody Who Favors Obama Is Sexist

Favoring Obama over Clinton is proof of being sexist - and that's a lot of people. Growing by the day.

[Redstone]

10. Don't you ever get tired of repeating yourself? Or making stupid statements?

Redstone

[MannyGoldstein]

13. I *Do* Get Awfully Tired Of Being Called Sexist [nt]

[Jamastiene]

37. Well, I haven't called you a sexist, but

I do believe you are full of shit with your nasty little snide post.

[Harry Monroe]

18. And by that logic, anyone favoring Clinton is racist??

So, if we take this logic to the extreme, anyone voting in any of the remaining Democratic Primaries is either sexist or racist.

:wtf: :crazy:

[provis99]

19. Yes! n/t

[Redstone]

20. You're talking to someone who doesn't do logic very well. Don't waste your time.

Redstone

[MannyGoldstein]

25. I Was Being Sarcastic

I believe that most Americans are neither particularly racist or sexist - which explains the two Democratic front runners. It also explains why the Clinton's brief race-baiting strategy was a catastrophe.

[Redstone]

27. Clinton Clinton Clinton blah blah blah. The OP was asking about American society, not

about Clinton Clinton Clinton blah blah blah.

Redstone

[MannyGoldstein]

30. It's An Example That Supports My Hypothesis

Sheesh.

[Jamastiene]

35. Bullshit.

Try bringing a valid argument up sometime, huh?

[Redstone]

9. OK, I won't be snide, and will give you a straight answer. At LEAST 75% of the people

I've known or met over the course of my life (over 50 years) are either racist, sexist, or both.

And the fact that Edwards is out of the race being "proof" that racism and sexism are extinct in America? Utterly absurd.

Redstone

[Jamastiene]

12. I have to disagree with you on this one.

Most people I have met in my lifetime have been either racist, sexist or both. It's actually rare to meet someone who is not one or both.

[Occam Bandage]

14. Mmmm...I'd say that most Americans are racist and sexist.

[AngryAmish]

51. What about non-Americans?

Methinks racism/sexism is the default position of mankind.

[Zorra]

17. Disagree. Corporate lobbyists/media sold us our candidates, and a whole lot of the

people in this country are racist misogynists, including many conservative Democrats.

[nancyr]

21. I disagree.

Sadly, I'd have to say that the majority were and are bigots. It always manages to pop up in the oddest places.

[Chovexani]

22. I'm guessing you're a white male.

Here's a hint: not all racists wear Klan robes and burn crosses on people's lawns, and not all sexists have Tourette's of the Female Genitalia and slap random women on the ass.

Hey, if you run fast, you still might be able to catch your ride on the Failboat.

[noamnety]

24. that's my guess as well.

"It doesn't affect me, so I guess it doesn't exist."

To put this in perspective, the OP is the same person who needs help figuring out whether calling Clinton "her thighness" is sexist.

:eyes:

[Redstone]

28. You're joking, aren't you? "Her thighness?" PLEASE tell me you're joking.

(I know you're not, but I REALLY wish you were.)

Redstone

[DemBones DemBones]

34. His profile says he's male, and

how many black fans does Lynyrd Skynyrd have? :shrug:

[Maddy McCall]

32. Ha....Ha.. .....gasping for breath.. ..HAHAHAHA!

"Tourette's of the Female Genitalia..."

That is hillarious....thanks for the best laugh tonight. :D

[Chovexani]

44. If we didn't laugh we'd be crying

I know I would. :silly:

[DemBones DemBones]

29. This is a joke, right?

You're serious?

:wow:

It would be nice if it were true but it's not. People are just more likely to hide their racism and sexism today. I'm afraid you will see this in November, whoever the nominee is.

[cliffordu]

31. This is going to be an interesting referendum on racism or sexism

Because no matter who we field, the sexist and racist majority in this country will default to the white guy no matter how ruinous his policies....Fear of the unknown is an extreme motivator in this country.....

[PurityOfEssence]

33. That's crap. How do you know?

I find it most alarming what many people come up with when they really let their hair down, have a drink or two or are in a frustrated or dangerous situation. Having made my living for many years largely by assessing people's characters very quickly, I'd have to say it's a taxing experience for an inherent optimist...

Such threads prey upon group-tyranny and political correctness, because to dispute the claim is to obviously admit one's scurrilous primitiveness.

Beyond all that, what's truly annoying are "permitted bigotries". It's somehow okay for the downtrodden to make sweeping dismissals of those who just happen to fall into the physical categories of their oppressors. Lest we forget: sexists aren't all male, racists aren't all white, ageists aren't all young, orientationists aren't all straight, and so forth; truly, shitheadedness is a cross-cultural and equal-opportunity affliction.

There's a lot more racism out there than you think, and there's DEFINITELY a whole lot more misogyny and misandry than most people would like to face. Gender dismissal is actually pretty okay in society, as any open-mike comedy show will easily prove.

Let's put "negative" racism aside for a moment and talk about "positive" racism. The former is hating "others", and the latter is pride in "one's own". The latter's all positive and wonderful, but isn't the result often the same?

Can most people really differentiate between personality and the physical? Did 91% of Blacks from 18-29 REALLY prefer Obama's policies and character over Clinton's? I'm not buyin' it.

Now, let's get specific. At what threshold do you consider someone racist? Surely, you'll accept SOME prejudice; it's just a question of whether the standard blockheadedness goes beyond the pale.

Do you have none? If you have some, is it "justified"? Is it within acceptable bounds?

Here's my take on the current state of American bigotry: for president, I think we're ready to elect a Black, a Woman, an Asian, a Catholic or a Hispanic, but I don't think we'd elect a Mormon, a Jew, a Muslim, a non-heterosexual and certainly not an Atheist or Agnostic. Do you disagree? If you don't, you're effectively agreeing that we've got a lot of bigotry swirling around in most if not all of us. Any takers on this?

[Political Heretic]

36. Most people are sexist and racist. Just because its internalized doesn't mean it isn't there.

You need to learn the difference between overt racism and internalized racism. The most insidious thing about racism today is that it comes from those who swear they are not racist.

"I was taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group"

Racism doesn't have to mean conscious hatred of someone because of the color of their skin. It is also the unconscious aka internalized discriminating, stereotyping attitudes and experiences of privilege that are part of our social and institutional experiences day in and day out.

[shayes51]

49. you are correct

[Political Heretic]

50. Case in point: me

I wrote that post last night when I was pretty tired, and I mentioned both sexism and racism in my subject line, but after that I just started talking about racism. I didn't do it on purpose, and in fact didn't even realize I had done it until this morning.

That's because I'm a man, and sexism isn't something I emotionally empathize with as much as I intellectually recognize it to be wrong and to exist. Without meaning to, I don't treat it the same way or with the same level of attention that I do racism because its not as easy for me to identify with, even though I KNOW its real.

That's because of my over-privilege. As a male who as enjoyed more than an appropriate, equitable share of power in culture and society, the fact of my privilege alone contributes to the reality of patriarchy. Motive isn't really the issue. I am not an overt misogynist - i.e. my conscious self is, frankly, a feminist in terms of ideals. But my culture shaped unconscious self is affected by the realities of society and decades of being raised within a world that normalizes the oppression of women.

[Swamp Rat]

38. Only the highly evolved and most civilised are not.

Unfortunately, those people are very rare, and are often crucified for trying to teach the rest of us how not to be racist and sexist. :(

[LadyVT]

41. hahahaha of course they are, they just don't know it--we are SO used to it,

we can't even see it.

16% of people in Congress are women. And how many Supreme Court Justices??? These are our highest lawmakers. And this is the best it has EVER been.

[AgadorSparticus]

43. sorry, but I've met TOO many racists people who don't consider themselves rascist.

Besides, I think 54% of the republican party are closet rascists, 1% are the uber rich, and 40% who THINK they are rich AND are rascists.

[Umbram]

45. No shortage of racist/sexist posts in this very thread to prove you wrong.

How odd that so many people are willing to judge the poster based on his race/sex in determining the validity of his post.

[noamnety]

53. I believe you are confused.

People are pointing out that racism and sexism are so widely experienced by women and POC that the overwhelming odds are that if a person has not experienced either (in a widespread way), it is because that person is not a woman or Person of Color.

It's neither racist nor sexist to point out that if you are privileged enough not to have experienced either of those as a consistent pattern in your life, it's a sign that you are in the dominant groups of both race and gender in our society. And it is neither racist nor sexist to acknowledge that the dominant racial group in this country is white, and the dominant gender is male.

(Dominant as in dominating/controlling society, not in outnumbering in a quantitative way)

[Umbram]

58. Believe what you like.

Telling someone what race/sex they "must be" in order to have a particular belief about the world around them is racist and sexist.

In #42 I posted what I believe is a neutral way to make the same basic point.

By saying "You are a white male" and leaving it at that, you are actually making AN EXCUSE for that person's believing that racism/sexism is rare. By holding the OP to the same standard you would hold a person in one of your underprivileged groups, there is no excusing the willful ignorance and also it forces all persons to debate the actual merits (or lack thereof) of the original point.

I am very unapologetic for my firm belief that the merits of a person's argument can be debated independent of that person's race and sex. I posted above that I disagree with the OP. In order to do so, I did NOT have to resort to making assumptions about the poster.

[noamnety]

62. You did make some assumptions about the poster.

You assumed they had not been in a position to experience widespread racism or sexism, right?

Which people in our culture are in that position? How many black women, do you think, are in that position in this country?

What we are saying is that for people in dominant classes, racism and sexism - and privilege - is rendered invisible. That's why it's called "unpacking the INVISIBLE backpack."

It's clear from the OP that he has NOT shared the experiences of women or people of color in this culture.

[Umbram]

65. I did - but not in my post. Rather than judge, I asked questions.

You ask if I made any assumptions as to the poster's race and sex.

If you do not see a difference in:

"Let me guess, white male?"

and my reply (as follows) then I think you may be applying a bit of bad faith:

"How much racism and sexism a person perceives can easily be dependent on how much is actually directed at that person, and also the environment and social status a person has. Is it possible that you aren't on the receiving end very much, and therefore underestimate the amount of racism and sexism that exists?"

The focus is NOT on the poster's race and sex, it is on the poster's experience. Isn't that the issue here?

In making hiring decisions, should I focus on what I presume an African American's experiences to be? Of course not - that is racist. I should ask. The OP could be a white male married to an African American woman, and if that were the case he would be in a position to experience more racism than any other person in America, as he has BOTH white and African American racism directed at him.

Do not misunderstand me to be one of these fools that pretends that white men are a persecuted group - as I said, I believe the OP to be completely wrong. My point is only that we can discuss this without having to know his race and sex. His EXPERIENCE is what matters.

[noamnety]

67. We're saying his experience betrays that he's not a black woman.

And that's a critique of our culture, and of the pervasiveness of racism, sexism in that culture.

If I understand you right, you are saying: "You're discounting his opinion because he's a white man."

No.

We're saying if you haven't had these experiences, we can tell you are not in this class of people that is targeted by racism/sexism.
And therefore if you aren't in a position to have experienced it, you aren't in a position to say it doesn't exist.

[Umbram]

69. OK.

But can't we short circuit the argument just to " . . .if
you aren't in a position to have experienced it, you aren't in
a position to say it doesn't exist." 

Even better than that:

"[I]f have[n't] experienced it, you aren't in a position
to say it doesn't exist."

Does one have to be in the class targeted by racism and/or
sexism to say whether it exists?  I could list any number of
instances of racism and/or sexism that I experience on a daily
basis, though I experience it as an observer.

The problem exists not in the original poster's sex or race,
but his willingness or ability to see acts of sexism and
racism around him.  That could be an avoidance skill developed
by a person of a subjected class, just as it could be willful
ignorance developed by someone of the privileged group.

Please, don't get me wrong - I'm learning a great deal from
our discussion.  Don't take me to be one of these "Poor
white men are so subjugated" folk - I am not.

If I were to retract my claim that the posts were racist or
sexist, would you at least agree that it is unproductive to
take that approach?  Couldn't this be a better educational
opportunity for the original poster if we asked him about his
Experiences rather than calling him on the carpet based on
what experiences we assume he has had?

Edited: Sorry - I mangled the formatting of my post because of
the [I]

[noamnety]

71. No, it's not enough to say that. It renders the whole point invisible.

Not the point:
"If have experienced it, you aren't in a position to say it doesn't exist."

The point:
Racism is so pervasive in our culture that it would be nearly impossible for a woman or person of color to have written the OP.

Your argument here is destructive in my opinion because it seeks to render all classes of people equal - and refuses to address existing power structures.

Our point is exactly that only a white male could reasonably have that world view - because of his position in the power structure. It's not unrelated, even if you want us to pretend it is.

Some white males see racism and sexism, and are tuned into it. Nobody's arguing that. Nobody's saying "all white males are ignorant of racism or sexism. Not at all.

We're saying that to have the luxury of NOT seeing it, you have to be in a privileged group.

[Umbram]

74. Maybe we simply have different points.

The point:
Racism is so pervasive in our culture that it would be nearly impossible for a woman or person of color to have written the OP.

I agree with that entirely.

Your argument here is destructive in my opinion because it seeks to render all classes of people equal - and refuses to address existing power structures.

I agree with you if my point was taken to a social policy level. My argument in saying that every point made in a dialog can be addressed without reference to that person's gender, race, or any other personal attribute should be limited to the context of a dialog. I'm not making some sort of sneaky argument against affirmative action or something. Far from it.

On the contrary, I think my argument, in THIS context, is far from destructive. I realize that you are saying something along the lines of "statistically, it is most probable that a white male, would deny the existence of racism and sexism." But I think the "Well, of course you think that - you must be a white male" response lets the OP off the hook. We both agree, I think, that the PROBLEM is that of perception. We both agree that white males are more easily in a position to have that perception problem.

Our point is exactly that only a white male could reasonably have that world view - because of his position in the power structure. It's not unrelated, even if you want us to pretend it is.

I agree, as I said above, that this is going to be most likely a white male's position (you said "nearly" earlier, which I preferred to "only" ...but, no matter.) I also agree that the power structure exists. I don't even disagree with the relationship. In order for you to suggest that I want anyone to pretend anything, you'd have to assume that I have an agenda. I don't. At this point it is you and I talking on a dead thread and you seem more educated than me on this area; I consider this an educational opportunity, even if I'm the only one learning anything. That said...

My point is that I'm not trying to divert the conversation from the power structure in some effort to minimize the white men's world we live in. I've admitted/agreed with every one of your above contentions.

My problem with the "Let me guess, you are a white male" response is that it is so dismissive based on race and gender that it effectively ends any chance for dialog. I think my reworded method of getting the same point across (posted before) gives the OP the opportunity to consider for himself why he does not experience racism and sexism, without the possibility of giving the mistaken impression that it is some how OK for him to be willfully ignorant of racism because he doesn't personally experience it directed at him.

As an aside, I've appreciated your thoughtful replies. If you find this discussion tedious, I won't be offended in the least if you decide not to reply. Like I said, I don't have an agenda, I'm not in this to 'win' any magical debate points. I think having a dialog like this gives me a better appreciation for different ways of looking at an issue.

[DearAbby]

46. I believe there are many racist people

but most will recoil from the blatant nasty racism. No one wants to see that dark part of themselves

[VotesForWomen]

47. heh. nt

[Iggo]

52. The vast majority of people...

...who use "the vast majority" as some kind of substitute for a statistical percentage are just making it up...myself included.

Carry on, weirdos.

[mudesi]

54. I can't believe the cynicism

You people are aware that millions of Americans are voting for either a woman or a black man to be the next president of the United States, right?

And that in November, the next president is going to be either a woman or a black man? (Because McCain is going to lose, and we all agree on that, right?)

Yet you all still cling to this false notion that most people are racists or sexists.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

56. Look Lyny Skyny, The Vast, VAST Majority Of DU Disagrees With You.

:hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. Do you realize, LS...

That 30% of white people are still against interrracial marriage?

[BigDaddy44]

73. And.....

You'd be surprised how many African Americans are against interracial marriage.

[DemBones DemBones]

61. It's not cynicism, it's realism.

Your OP expresses idealism and not the real experiences of women or blacks.

[noamnety]

63. Are you thinking a vote for Clinton or Obama

disqualifies you from being a sexist or a racist?

You do know that some of the people who vote for Clinton, for example, will be rapists, right?

that's the extreme, but if the extreme exists, it should tell you that every milder form of sexism will still exist in that population as well.

[Iggo]

70. I'm not voting for a woman or a black man.

I'm voting for a Democrat. When I voted for Kucinich in the primary, I wasn't voting for a white man. I was voting for a Democrat. The fact that so many people still feel the need to focus on the gender or skin color of the candidate, whether in anger or in celebration, tells me we still have a long way to go before we can make any kind of blanket assumptions that racists and sexists are in the minority.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

55. Try getting a job as a recruiter or in human resources - and THEN claim this.

I have never heard or seen as many sexist/racist/bigoted comments as when I was a human resources consultant. You would be surprised... It sure opened my eyes....

The sexism was a bit worse than the racism amongst the managers.

[MethuenProgressive]

64. Regular Americans don't think Clinton's Campaign is the same as a Lynching?

The average American is smarter than the DUbamas think.

[sampsonblk]

68. Everyone has issues-nt

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

72. Everyone I've ever known is bigoted about something

Including me.

Racist, sexist, ageist, sizeist...women who hate men with bald heads, men who hate women with fat asses...

...Mexicans who hate Puerto Ricans and Chileans who hate Cubans...Jews who hate Greeks and Armenians who hate Turks...

and the biggest group of bigots of all: we hate stupid people who suck!