If my mom was a black man, I'd probably dislike listening to Obama too

[theboss]

While I find the Which is Worse: Sexism vs. Racism arguments interesting, I think they are missing the real reason why listening to Hillary is an unpleasant experience for a lot of us.

It has nothing to do with sexism.
It has nothing to do with patriarchy.
It has nothing to do with Clinton fatigue.

It has everything to do with the fact that she sounds like my mother telling me to do my homework. 80 percent of men (myself included) probably need some type of therapy to resolve a million issues that we still have with our mothers.

When I hear her sarcastic rant on the "getting everyone together" and "hearing choirs of angels," I don't hear a presidential candidate talking about another presidential candidate.

I hear my mom letting me know what a major disappointment her birthday was and what a wonderful day Angie's sons gave her when she turned 40.

Sorry, Hillary. It's not you. It's me.

[FrenchieCat]

1. Some truth to your theory, I am sure.......

[Cha]

10. Did anyone know how kind

Obama was when he told hilary she "was likeable enough". I realized he trying to make light of the moment at the time but the frenzy feeding that followed was bizarre. Turns out hilary isn't even likable enough.

[Whisp]

37. hahaha! you are right, she is Not likeable enough.

Obama was being very gentlemanly and gracious.

but of course, if you don't like her, you're a big fat sexist oinker.
you can hate Ann Coulter, Monica Lewinski - call them all sorts of names, but that's okay. Those are 'bad' women.

[workinclasszero]

22. LOL! I love it! eom

[bunnies]

2. rec'd. nt

[LisaM]

3. Oh great. Bush has daddy issues, you have mother issues.

Look, my mother and I haven't historically had the greatest relationship, but never in a million years would I project that on to Hillary Clinton. That's pure craziness. Not only that, if you look at her own role as a mother, she seems to have been inordinately successful. She and Chelsea seem to have a beautiful relationship.

[question everything]

43. Unfortunately logic and reasons have not been prominent in this campaign

At least the OP is honest about it, and some feminists from New York who published a collection of essays about why they will not vote for her say the same thing:

From http://www.newsweek.com/id/105587

The reasons for their suspicion outlined here are mostly personal — she doesn't have a hobby, aside from cleaning closets and completing crossword puzzles. She doesn't appear to have been deeply attached to her family pets. She lacks sensuousness. She showed a hint of cleavage. She wore turquoise earrings with a yellow pantsuit. She liked prim headbands. She changed her maiden name. She married Bill Clinton. She stayed married to Bill Clinton. She is still married to Bill Clinton. Even her voice, Marie Brenner writes, "reminds us of the fifth grade teacher we despised."

And then there are millions of black people who really don't care where Obama stands, as long as he is black. And because he is charismatic and uses the right words... without saying much of substance.

And many who do not care where Clinton stands, they will not vote for a woman.

After all, there are still many who, yes, did expect her to stay home and bake cookies. Does Michelle Obama?



M

[ElsewheresDaughter]

4. so because you hate your mother you want everyone else to?........

[theboss]

8. I love my mother

However, I did move 500 miles away for a reason.

[roguevalley]

46. my mother is brilliant, the true love of my life and I would do ANYTHING

to have my mom and dad back with me. The poster above is right. Some of the stuff said about Coulter and Malkin is beyond the pale but no one says a word in their defense or calls the sexist remarks. Yet somehow because Hillary is a public figure like them and a candidate and people genuinely dislike her for a multitude of reasons, many of them she self inflicted, suddenly the 'sexism' is called out in loud ringing tones. I wonder if I am the only one smelling the sulfuric smell of hypocracy?

I find many of the criticisms of her based on issues and policies. some sexism is flung too but I think there is less of it than is posed by some. I was flamed up the wazoo a while back for criticising some of her positions and called a sexist and a traitor and all the rest. (I want either Gore or Edwards, to set the record straight. I will support the winner but they are my dream team.)

Some people are such partisans on both sides that any criticism is called sexist or racist. Too bad.

[lukasahero]

66. "no one says a word in their defense or calls the sexist remarks." Actually, yes some of us do

however, most of us are tired of fighting a losing battle as we will get reamed a thousand times over for trying to do so. If we can't get people to not use derogatory sexist slurs against women we assume they respect, how long she would bang our heads against a wall trying to get them to see they shouldn't use them for women like Ann Coulter?

[Cant trust em]

5. You mean that her loss could be due to something other than her gender?

What a novel concept. I wish it were as easy as some around here would believe.

[Metric System]

50. OP says he has mommy issues so yeah I'd say it's about gender.

[Beacool]

6. It is about YOU.

Please take thee to a therapist............

:crazy:

[Demeter]

7. And That, Folks Is the Basis For American Misogyny, Right There

How DARE a woman, even a boy's mother, call him on his bullshit? Women should be obscene and not heard!

Stop the planet, I want to get off.

[theboss]

12. I don't think my mom ever really called me on my bullshit

I'm not sure I had that much bullshit to be called on.

I was, however, told on at least two occasions that I was ruining Christmas.

That sort of thing tends to stick with you.

[Jamastiene]

26. Oh, waaaaa, poor you.

You are a whiny mouth male chauvinist pig. Own it, motherhater.

[theboss]

29. I like my mom

She is completely insane but a good person.

She just has a unique ability for occasionally making me want to shoot up a supermarket.

But it's all done out of love.

[The Anti-Bush]

38. That was pretty damned rude. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Jamastiene]

53. But sexist bullshit isn't rude?

You have your priorities all screwed up. Go to your room without dinner.

[lukasahero]

68. How old are you?

If you're over 18, it's time to get over it.

I do however have to comment on your user name - "theboss". Did you choose that name because you wanted to make it clear to mommy that no ones the boss of you? Seriously, dude, it's time to grow up.

[Bluerthanblue]

13. no- not at all. This could just as easily have been someone stating that

Obama reminded them of their father.

There ARE mothers who do not parent in the same way that this poster is talking about.

I applaud the OP for admitting something that very likely influences each one of us to some degree, and acknowledging that it was in fact THIER 'issue'- and not the fault of the candidate.

peace~


edited - missing words

[Jamastiene]

24. "Stop the planet, I want to get off."

I've been feeling the same way lately too.

[Big Blue Marble]

36. It was not that she called him out,

it was the way she did it. Publicly yelling "shame on you Barack Obama." was an extremely inappropriate and demeaning thing to say to
another Democratic candidate or really just any one. It is unhealthy and destructive to even talk to children that way.

It reflects back on her far more than it effectively criticizes Obama. We will be looking at that clip for years. It will partially define
this race. Every time I see it, I am amazed how undignified she looks in it. And poor Governor Strickland. I dare say he will regret
playing her shadow for a long time.

[Occam Bandage]

9. ...I am very sorry for your issues with your mother. I really am.

[theboss]

11. I don't really have that many issues with her

It's just, you know, I sometimes here her voice in my sleep.

And, Christ, she and Hillary sound alike.

[Occam Bandage]

15. Yeah, it can be tough, I know. I know

you know your mother is a good person at heart, don't fear or hate her, etc. This post was a bit brave; you've opened yourself to a lot of cold words.

[SoFlaJet]

31. hey boss forget about it man

all these asshole Clintonites are so quick to accuse people that don't support "THEIR GIRL" with every kind of psychological problem known and NOT yet known to man-I'm sick of being called names by these scumbags who don't know what they are fucking talking about

[SaveOurDemocracy]

39. wow ... hate much?

[SoFlaJet]

45. yea I hate ignorance

and people calling other people disgusting names that don't apply just becuase they don't support Hillary Rodham Clinton

[SaveOurDemocracy]

48. so ... you must hate yourself then, because ...

this post is a perfect example of "ignorance" and "calling other people disgusting names that don't apply just because they don't support..." YOUR candidate.

SoFlaJet Thu Feb-28-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #11

31.

hey boss forget about it man

all these asshole Clintonites are so quick to accuse people that don't support "THEIR GIRL" with every kind of psychological problem known and NOT yet known to man-I'm sick of being called names by these scumbags who don't know what they are fucking talking about

[SoFlaJet]

49. did you read why I wrote that?

because of people from her side always accusing us that are not of being sexists or homophobes or any other shit they want to toss around no I don't hate myself-I will continue to fight ignorance in the way I feel it justly deserves

[SoFlaJet]

14. If I had an ex-mother-in-law

I suspect she would sound like Clinton on Saturday with the shame on you bullshit-and from a man's point of view I'll bet you it's one of the reasons she is losing support from us

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. So What You're Sayin Is "I Don't Like Women In A Position Of Authority, Because They'd Sound Like My

mother"?

Yup. Nothin inherently sexist about that at all.

[Bluerthanblue]

17. ??? that isn't what the OP said at all-

:shrug:

peace~

[theboss]

18. No. I don't like women in position of authority who sound like my mother.

Big difference.

[hfojvt]

32. maybe it's not about sex or authority

When I went to grade school, all of the teachers I had were women. Some of them were nice and some of them were mean. Some were young and good looking, others were older than mother time. Some of them I liked and some of them I didn't. Actually, there is only one that I didn't - my fourth grade teacher and the feeling was mutual. It's not about the authority, but about the way the authority acts towards subordinates.

You expect Norman Bates or Carrie to have warm feelings for their mothers?

A woman could remind you of your favorite teacher/aunt/librarian/girlfriend or she could remind you of your least favorite.

[Qanisqineq]

74. Exactly. n/t

[JVS]

19. Parents, you love em, but sometimes it can be really hard to like or even stand them.

And that's where the difficulty starts.

[FSogol]

20. I think you're way off base, now go hang up your coat. n/t

[Straight Shooter]

21. Good gawd. n/t

[Jamastiene]

23. Your mother must be so proud.

:eyes:

Excuses. Excuses. Give me a fucking break.

[theboss]

25. She loves me

I'm a good son.

(By the way, while my tongue is not planted firmly in my cheek on this thread, the wise poster would view it as somewhat humorously).

[Jamastiene]

27. No, the wise poster sees it for what it is:

Bullshit. There is no excuse for it and it is ridiculous. You are right about one thing though; you need some serious fucking therapy.

[theboss]

28. There are a lot of excuses for it

1. Freud
2. The Catholic Church
3. Greek Tragedy
4. The early seasons of The Cosby Show

[femrap]

30. It's always the Mother's fault....

isn't it? Therapy could help you evolve possibly.

[The Anti-Bush]

40. Wonderful insight. Must have required a ton of thought.

[femrap]

56. Go attack your mama....

you blame her for your rotten existence.

Love that Ignore.

[femrap]

33. I just reread your OP because

I am just aghast at your willful ignorance. Did you even get your mother a card for her birthday? Did you at least tell her Happy Birthday?

Maybe your mother told you to do your damn homework because she wanted you to be able to feed yourself as an adult?

And before the talk about 'choirs of angels,' I'm sure you just loved HRC?

You are so deeply self-consumed, I am surprised you don't refer to yourself as The Sun as opposed to the son.

I feel very sorry for your mother...does she any children who do care about her? You have no idea how many women regret having had children. They would never tell you, but to a friend who holds secrets, it is said more than you would ever think.

[Jamastiene]

52. His mother probably wishes she'd thrown him away

and kept the afterbirth.

[femrap]

57. or not bothered at all. lol!

[Jamastiene]

58. I know.

I think this one takes the cake out of all of the ones so far. Talk about blatant. :eyes:

[Marrah_G]

65. That was over the top

Yes.. his posts make me angry also, but don't stoop to his level.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

34. If your mom was a black man you'd be famous.

Things like that don't happen everyday ya know.

Beyond that, have you thought about speaking to a therapist? It sounds as if you may have an issue with your mother that needs resolving.

[loyalsister]

35. Great insight

It is beyond Hillary's control that she comes off as maternal or even matriarchal compared to Obama. He has identified with a generation younger. She comes off as at least nearly old enough to be his mother and immediately reminds us of ours. My mom said flat out that listening to her reminds her of her mother.

I pointed out in another thread that Claire McCaskill had a similar disadvantage. She did not have had the same perception problem running against Jim Talant as she did when she ran against Matt Blunt.

That said, there has been sexism that seems to be unacknowledge and disregarded as insignificant by many. I consider it unfortunate to realize how readily it is accepted. I think that is true of some other forms of bigotry as well. I think that sometimes, people are not ready to value the listener interpretations if it means that they may have to confront uncomfortable possibilities related to their own laziness, behavior, or attitudes.

[demmiblue]

41. You're right...

it's you. Strange post, to say the least!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. 80 percent of men (myself included) probably need some type of therapy to resolve a million issues

no shit!

[Bucky]

71. 80 percent of men, yourself included?

Have you been decieving us, Pri?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

73. lol. i was just quoting what i consider one of the stupidest posts in recent history

though i swear every time i see one i consider rock bottom, another one pops up. as if to mock me.

[Dr. Strange]

44. OK I do admire you.

I'm not saying your doing the thing we want. However we must think of our kids in the the year 59.

[Mushroom]

47. I dislike listening to Obama...

because he sounds like Don Quixote tilting at windmills.

[Bucky]

72. I will buy you some soundproof earmuffs with an 8 year warranty

By 2016 I'm assuming TIVO technology will be able to protect you from unwelcomed assaults from the History Channel

[Drunken Irishman]

51. This reminds me of something my mom said to me during the debate.

We were watching it together and for full disclosure, my mom supports Obama. During the part where they showed the clip of Clinton yelling "Shame on you, Barack Obama," my mom cringed. She looked at me and said it reminded her of a typical mother shaming her son after finding something she didn't like -- maybe a porno magazine or a movie you're not supposed to be watching. And it's true, she sounded like a mother at that point. Sometimes sounding like a mother isn't a bad thing, because every male wants a mother figure -- most males are closer to their mothers than they are their fathers. However, you don't want someone reminding you of the mean mother, the mother we all hated growing up. The mother that could drive us to tears with her harsh sarcasm and obvious disappointment.

See, and I don't know if it's the same for many of you, I hated pissing my mom off growing up. I could always live with getting yelled at by my dad, but when my mom did it, it ate me up inside. It's probably because of the mother-son relationship, but I dreaded the moment I did anything that hurt or angered my mother.

[grantcart]

67. I think that "shame on you" will mark the point when the polls tanked

Which raises two interesting questions

1) Is it sexist when a man resents being reminded of being easculated by his mother?

2) How many men were subliminally triggered by that totally needless "shame on you"?

[Metric System]

54. My mom died when I was 4 so I guess I'm supporting Hillary because I don't have a mother to compare

her to.

[susankh4]

55. I am sure Hillary would appreciate your admission

You should submit it as a letter to the editor.

[bigbrother05]

59. Boss, here is my first response to listening to Hillary

We stayed out of things until January, there were still quite a few in the race.
Hillary come on, speaking, more like yelling
I looked at my husband and said, She can talk to Bill like that, but the voters won't listen
I quess I was right

[Midlodemocrat]

60. This has to be the most pathetic OP I have ever seen here.

Seriously. :puke:

[Bluebear]

61. True, you should have therapy as you mention. And probably shouldn't vote until it's resolved.

"Boss".

[TheDonkey]

62. Unfortunately for that theory most boys tend to like their mom more than their dad

My mother also never came across as sanctimonious and snide as Hillary.

[Bucky]

63. Congratulations on the single most confusing thread headline ever.

bonus points for simulataneously denouncing and reinforcing crude demographic stereotypes.

[theboss]

77. There's a germ of truth in most stereotypes

I'm never really going to know these politicians. The basic question is this:

1. Do I want Obama occassionally talking out of his ass for the next four years?
2. Do I want Hillary scolding me for not eating my peas for the next four years?

Ultimately, I believe that they are going to be essentially the same on policy.

[lukasahero]

64. So essentially you're saying 80% of men will never support a woman in a position

of power over them? Hey, thanks for at least admitting it. :eyes: Maybe some day you might actually get over it.

BTW - if this is your reasoning, it IS sexism.

[theboss]

75. Nobody really understands the post apparently

I've actually had nothing but female bosses throughout my career. And I've done fine with all of them.

Not all women seem like my mom yelling at me.

Hillary does.

I'm trying to think of a female politician who I dug....Ann Richards. She was like my hip grandmother. Loved her.

[grantcart]

69. Well you tell mom that Angie didn't do half as good a job as raising

son's as she did. It will be a strange combination of compliment and rebuke which should keep her up late every night for a month lol.

Truth is I can tell she did! lol

[Ino]

70. Hillary reminds me several people

The angry "shame on you" speech conjured up my abusive ex-husband going off on me for no reason. Her complaining about getting the first question followed by the martyred "but I have no problem with it" was my mother. The over-the-top sarcastic "choirs of angels" was an ex-boyfriend who would reword what I said so he could make fun of it. Her dogged determination to belabor the healthcare topic, "winning" by wearing everyone out and getting the last word, was my mother again.

It's not Hillary's gender. It's her tone of voice, her choice of words, her body language, the look in her eyes. It brings up memories of anyone, male or female, who has manipulated, belittled or harangued the listener. And those ways of relating are not attractive in a President, or any other public office.

[theboss]

76. Thank you

That's the point.

[Blondiegrrl]

79. Excellent point. Her attitude is not becoming of a president.

You know who else she reminds me of? President G.W. Bush. The snotty, bullying, condescending attitude is nearly identical.

[JVS]

80. Fascinating.

[Blondiegrrl]

78. Funny you should mention that. I told my husband just the other day that

Hillary reminds me of my mother, with whom I have always had a terrible relationship. (Now that's not the main reason I don't support her; the main reason is that I think the Clintons are backstabbing, power-hungry egomaniacs, and I don't trust them as far as I can throw them.) But yes, the nagging and scolding tone she takes, and the way she talks down to the people (the very same voters who she is supposed to be courting) is exactly the way my mother has always treated me. Her "Shame on you, Barack Obama!" tirade was especially grating because it smacked of condescension. Senator Obama is hardly a schoolboy to be reprimanded; he is a middle-aged man and a skilled politician.