11% of Democrats voted for Bush in 2004. It must be because of racism against Kerry!

[jackson_dem]

The facts need to be put out there for all the Obama doctrine police members executing MagsDem for having the audacity to post what many polls have showed. If St. Obama can win blacks by up to 76 points against a candidate with a 100% lifetime NAACP rating (Edwards had a 97% lifetime rating. St. Obama beat him among blacks 78-1 in South Carolina.) is it a shocker that Hillary runs 10% better with whites than St. Obama? The race card cuts both ways in the general. Still, St. Obama offsets the defections among white Dems by doing better with independents than Hill. For all the frothing of the mouth and the mob mentality on display by the "non-cult" in the other thread it is completely factual but does not mean St. Obama is unelectable because as of right now, since the rethugs haven't touched him, he does better with indies (but not with rethugs in the general).

Note: the Obama doctrine posting police where nowhere to be found when a similar thread was posted showing that men defect from Hillary at higher rates than with St. Obama. In fact, they were cheerleading that thread as "proof" St. Obama is more electable.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

[BringBigDogBack]

1. Classy!

But I'm afraid you left out 'Cult'. Never too late for an edit. ;)

[jackson_dem]

3. It isn't a cult at all

Just like at MagDems thread. No hint of any cultish behavior there. ;)

[Johnny__Motown]

2. This may be off topic, but why so much fuss about repugs voting for Obama now?

Using your numbers it should be assumed that some percentage of party members cross over to vote for someone in the other party.

Doesn't this mean that all the rants about our primaries not being closed are all irrelevant?

Thank you and have a nice day

[jackson_dem]

5. Because Clinton leads among the popular vote among Democrats

It is rethugs and "independents" that have put Obama over the top thus far in the "Democratic nomination" fight. If we are going to let rethugs and "indies" select our nominee we ought to drop the pretense and just disband as a party. The rethugs wouldn't accept this. In fact, there was much antagonism to McCain in 2000 when he was winning open primaries with "independent" and Democratic support and even in 2008 until he proved he could consistently win the rethug vote.

[JeffR]

14. Link? Source? Rational thought? Any brainwave activity at all?

Nope.

[jackson_dem]

18. Link for what?

Hillary leads among Democrats? That was documented a while back. The popular vote is 50-46 minus Fl and MI. Onbama wins rethugs by about 70-30 and indies by similar margins. Put down the kool aid and do the math...

[JeffR]

29. Don't do kool aid, thanks anyway.

A while back? When? And what are the current numbers on this? I'm sorry if I came across as an asshole with the question, but if you could point me to current, credible stats on this, I'd be inclined to give your contentions more serious attention. Really.

[jackson_dem]

35. Before Wisconsin

Since Wisconsin 0 states have voted. Finding out the popular vote, minus FL and MI, stands at 50-46 is easy to do. Then look at the exit polls. Obama wins rethugs and "independents' by obscene margins. Do the math. Voila...

[JeffR]

38. Will do that. n/t

[Cheeseburger Walrus]

33. Oh, shit, some of those non-voters and independents might finally find a candidate,,,

exciting enough to pull them into the fray. Denounce them! They haven't earned a voice in government!

[jackson_dem]

44. Yes, Obama is the first candidate since Washington to have such magical effects

Isn't he so wonderful?

[Cheeseburger Walrus]

48. I'm not terribly excited about...

the fact that I wish there were more options, but what is the alternative? If not your candidate, then...

[jackson_dem]

50. The hype is both amusing and annoying

Obama is a good Democrat, like Hillary but he doesn't walk on water and he isn't the second coming of George Washington, the only true uniter we have ever had and even he had some zealous opposition. Obama would call him too polarizing if he ran against him! :rofl:

[Cheeseburger Walrus]

54. Not really seeing the causal link...

P.S. This psychic is a fraudulent douche, yet may still make a random hammer meets nail call once in awhile.

[FrenchieCat]

4. You were on ignore due to all of your "race" post......

I made a mistake and removed you.

You are going back on.

You fucking bore me!

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[jackson_dem]

6. Spoken like a true cultist who votes in Pittsburgh

You didn't even read the post. Obama offsets everything he loses with white Democrats with independents. I disagree with the premise of Mag's thread while vigorously defending him from the cult doctrine enforcement police.

Race fucking matters because St. Obama made race an issue in the campaign--just in the nick of time for the South Carolina primary. :eyes: Too bad this divisive fraud ran. If he hadn't, or if he practiced what Axlerod tells him to preach no one would be discussing this today.

[MagsDem]

31. It may be my cynicism showing

I just spent too many years in the south listening to racist remarks (and plenty of gay bashing too) not to be a bit skeptical of southern "democrats."
I remember when I first moved there I saw a bumper sticker on a pick up truck that said "the south shall rise again" accompanied by a picture of a confederate flag. Call me naive, but I was actually shocked. My thought was, what is that supposed to mean? Black people should be enslaved again?

The charges of racism piss me off because when I did live in the south I never let a racist comment pass without making the person feel like an idiot for saying it. Once a neighbor complained to me about how many "blacks" were moving in to the area and "ruining" it, and my response to her was "well if you don't like black people I guess you shouldn't have enslaved them and brought them over here on slave ships." That shut her up, and no, she didn't talk to me again, but I didn't really give a fuck either.

[rodeodance]

40. and many are racist--just because they want to discuss race being a factor in this primary!!

[jackson_dem]

41. Anyone who thinks race isn't a factor is either an idiot or a liar

Look at South Carolina

Whites: Edwards 40, Hillary 36, St. Obama 24
Blacks. St. Obama 78, Hillary 19, Edwards 1

What are the odds this happened randomly? :eyes:

[rodeodance]

42. I know---but here on DU--many Obamafolk police people who do so

[jackson_dem]

45. Some of them are the former but almost all of them are the latter

[Andromeda]

55. If you are so bored why don't you buzz off...

and stop hoarding so much band width with your ridiculous posts?

[Barack_America]

7. Or because they were evangelicals that got manipulated by the various gay marriage amendments?

:shrug:

I don't see that it had anything whatsoever to do with race.

[jackson_dem]

10. Maybe because it happens every year? 6% of rethugs voted for Kerry

There are defections every year. Usually more Dems defect than rethugs. I think the only time in the past quarter of century more rethugs defected was when someone named Clinton was on the ballot...

This thread is to defend MagsDem from the Obamite doctrine enforcement police and to put facts on the table. Yes, St. Obama runs worse among Democrats--of almost every color--than Hillary does in general election match ups. Yes he does worse with white Democrats in the general. However, he offsets all of this by doing better with "independents" than Hillary. If Obamites weren't so obsessed with imposing posting codes they would be able to put these facts on the table in response to mag's instead of trying to execute him for saying something the Minister of Truth David Axlerod did not approve.

[Barack_America]

27. All I can say is "get over your hatred for Independents"

They vote. They matter. They must be considered in choosing a nominee.

And yes, "divisive" issues such as gay marriage, race and gender might cause a little more crossing over. What are you going to do about it? True Democrats will vote for the policies proposed by the Democratic nominee. Those that won't...well, I don't know what to say about them.

[jackson_dem]

30. Let's just disband the party then and let the people who gave us Lieberman select our nominee

[Barack_America]

36. Awareness of other parties and their votes, does not necessarily make you less loyal to your own.

I don't know what else to say.

I'm tired and no longer drunk. Boo!

[Andromeda]

58. And why don't you get over yourself?

Nobody hates independents. It just so happens that a lot of independents have no loyalties beyond themselves and it's their judgement that I question, not their right to vote.

If Obama wins it won't be the Democratic vote that puts him over the top.

What twisted irony that is.

[Barack_America]

72. Um, okay.

But this whole "independent" discussion is one that JacksonDem and I have been having for a while.

We're familiar with one another so I think he knows I meant no harm by saying "get over your hatred".

[Radical Activist]

8. People might take you more seriously if you didn't write childish things like "St. Obama"

Nevermind. People only have to read one or two of your posts before they stop taking you seriously.

[jackson_dem]

12. He isn't running as a saint?

Can you name one policy issue Obama has ever admitted to being wrong on? He likes to attack others for being wrong. Surely he has never been wrong himself.

[Radical Activist]

19. Terry Schiavo

Haven't you posted something about that sometime? One more reason to not take you seriously.

[jackson_dem]

20. What was Obama's position on Schiavo? Got any real issue?

Speaking of not taking anyone seriously, how about someone with a Che avatar who supports a corporate candidate?

[Radical Activist]

24. No response. Just another cheap shot. Typical.

Its all you got and exactly why no one takes you seriously. Thanks for proving my point.

And how hilarious that someone with a Hillary avatar would write ANYTHING about a corporate candidate. Ha. You like corporate lawyers who served on the board of walmart huh? :rofl:
Yeah, I think I'll stick with the first left wing movement activist the Dem party has ever nominated for President.

[jackson_dem]

28. What was Obama's position on Schiavo?

Hillary is corporate. Everyone knows it. It is Obama that relies on lies and deception. BTw I supported Edwards, like many anti-corporate people did.

Obama is the first left wing movement activist? Really? First, that is naive since he has consistently moved to the right. He isn't what he was a decade ago. Second, who founded the Americans for Democratic Action? The same guy who stood for civil rights long before it was politically popular? He doesn't count as a left-wing activist? Maybe he doesn't because Obamites would have voted against him if he ran today.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

75. your question reminds me of MSM's fixation on blond bimbettes missing

from a tropical island.

Although I worry about insulting MSM.

[jackson_dem]

77. Obamite TA cited Schiavo. that was the first I heard about Obama and Schiavo

[MagsDem]

13. Oh that's a pipe dream

An Obama supporter take a critisicm of Obama seriously? Now that would be a rarity.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/352909_maxwellonline29.html

[Radical Activist]

21. I don't confuse serious criticism with personality disorders.

[jackson_dem]

23. They are cultists. Few of them can really be this dumb

If Obama wins blacks by up to 76 points over someone with a 100% NAACP rating and 78-1 over someone with a 97% NAACP rating running on populism and poverty is it really a fucking shocker that Hillary runs 10 points better among whites than St. Obama?

[Radical Activist]

26. Maybe most black voters are smarter than you

because they look at Edwards' voting record instead of being naively duped by a slick stump speech. Chump.

[jackson_dem]

32. His voting record is a 97% lifetime NAACP rating (something you definitely didn't know)

And he won the black vote with 37% in 2004 when he was less progressive than in 2008. What happened in 2008? A candidate swiftboated the Clintons on race right before the SC primary and made a vote for him a vote against white racism. :eyes:

More proof of St. Obama playing the cynical race card http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4814180&mesg_id=4814180

[MagsDem]

34. Maybe it's a math thing

I know, it seems pretty obvious.

[MagsDem]

9. Facts are such pesky things

Thanks for this post. There must have been 75 irrational attack dogs calling me a racist in that thread, but I survived anyway. And reality STILL has a liberal bias.

[jackson_dem]

22. If they want to stop being called a cult they need to stop acting like one...

You are a DU hero for having the balls to stand up to the Obamite thugs. You knew what the Obamite posting enforcement police would do.

[MagsDem]

52. Thanks I appreciate that

I have never voted for a rethug in my entire life, and I have busted my ass for candidates for years. Money, door knocking, phone banking, everything. But you don't support Obama, and man, you are a right wing nut troll POS, etc., etc., It's utterly ridiculous. They should be grateful Skinner has given so much leeway during the primaries, because under the normal DU rules most of them would have been banned by now.

[JeffR]

11. Citing an utterly repulsive troll and sarcastically referring to

one of our party's two remaining candidates as "St."?

Priceless!

:woohoo:

[jackson_dem]

Mags is a troll only to the Obama doctrine enforcement police

He posted something numerous polls show. He is a hero for having the balls to buck the Obama machine knowing full well how they would react.

Ok. Obama isn't a saint. Can you name one policy issue on which he has admitted to being wrong? He likes to attack everyone else for being wrong on some things. Surely he has never been wrong. Just ask him....

[Forkboy]

16. Yes, everyone who thought the thread sucked is an Obama fan.

Looks like frenchiecat was right.

Black and white.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Andromeda]

62. Where do you get off calling MagsDem a disruptor?

It's not for you to judge who is and who isn't philosophically pure enough to be a loyal Democrat and you are certainly out of line by calling MagsDem a right-wing troll.

It takes balls to state the truth knowing you're going to get clobbered because of it.

If you don't broaden your viewpoints and open yourself up to other ways of thinking and learn how to assess what is and is not fact and what is or is not fiction, you will be hopelessly mired in that pit of narrow-mindedness that you appear to be in.

Open your mind and THINK! Don't just react.

[Forkboy]

15. It warms the heart.

[rodeodance]

46. If Mags is a troll--than you are also!!

[LittleClarkie]

17. No, I'd just say that 11 percent of Democrats are dumbasses

Can't win em all, I guess.

[LiberalAndProud]

37. Polls at this stage are useless to predict what might happen in

November. Geez! Kerry had good polling numbers just before the election and they predicted nothing.

Voters who aren't excited about either candidate are going to stay home, and McCain isn't likely to stir up much enthusiasm, even with his own constituents. I believe that EITHER ONE of our candidates will prevail against him in a well executed campaign.

Kerry was nominated, as I recall, as the candidate most likely to beat Bush. That didn't work out well for us. This argument was used up and worn out in 2004.

[jackson_dem]

39. Yes but Obama is running on that argument once again

Even though he does only 4-5 points better against someone who the rethugs have smeared for 16 years. Imagine how weak Obama will be if he is the nominee and the rethug machine is done with him. That 4-5 point advantage sure as hell won't hold...

[LiberalAndProud]

60. It's possible that your premonitions are 100% correct.

BUT a year ago I wouldn't have believed that Senator Obama would do this well. I am impressed with his political strategy, with the exception of the McClerkin(sp?) disaster. He has recruited new voters, given the small, long-ignored states a sense of empowerment (which has been very good for our party), and both parried and launched attacks well thus far. He has clearly studied the process, identified weaknesses in status quo strategies and taken advantage of them. Senator Clinton's campaign has, regretfully, been less than stellar.

There are those who will not vote for any black man for as long as they live. There are those who will not vote for THIS black man, for very valid reasons. On the other hand there are those who will not vote for any woman, and those who will not vote for THIS woman. Either way, we have prejudices to overcome.

If Senator Clinton could double-damn guarantee that she could and would revamp and reenergize her campaign in the remaining months before the GE, I would concur that she is the better candidate. Having watched the circus thus far, I don't believe she would have significantly better numbers against McCain, and very likely she would not do as well. And, because she has been in the public eye for such a very long time and has such an extensive public record, the other side has more ammunition to use against her.

[MagsDem]

43. Great point!!!

"Kerry was nominated, as I recall, as the candidate most likely to beat Bush."

They nominated him because he was a "war hero" while neglecting to remember that he as also MA liberal that didn't stand a chance in hell in the south or even the southwest. We keep hearing about this 50 state strategy. DU'er touted it all the time pre BO. Now, not so much. We don't nominate for a 50 state strategy, we prefer to be purists, apparently. You can't tell me Edwards, Biden, or Richardson wouldn't have made a perfectly good president. And you actually could have run a 50 state strategy with them.

We lose when we don't think strategically.

[jackson_dem]

47. These people think Obama can disenfranchise Michigan and Florida and still win

They are swing states with only 44 electoral votes. :eyes:

[MagsDem]

49. Oh I know -- that one just blows the mind

To be fair, he might escape with MI in the GE if he does that to get the nomination, but he'd be lucky (and I mean really lucky) to win FL even if he didn't insist their delegates not be seated. Once he does that, he can literally kiss FL goodbye in the GE. The democratic attitude there will be "if my primary vote didn't count, you sure as hell aren't getting it in the general."

[jackson_dem]

51. Look at the exit poll data from 2004

There isn't any available by state for the presidential race but there was a hotly contested senate race in Florida. 12% of Democrats voted for the rethug while only 8% of rethugs voted Dem. If Obama disenfranchises Florida that 12% may become 20% and many of the remaining loyal 88 bloc from 2004 will stay home. Since Fl is always a razor thin state disenfranchising it will be fatal to our chances there.


Why do you think he can win Michigan? I think the same thing would happen there, although he has a better argument for stripping it, although it is his fault for taking his name off the ballot so he could pander to Iowans.

The electoral count was 286-252 in 2004. Give the rethugs Michigan and it is 303-235. Where is Obama going to make up the 35 electoral votes he would surrender in FL and MI? If he manages to lose Pennsylvania, like he does in the polls right now, it becomes 324-214. Is he going to be able to make up that deficit by swinging Iowa?

[MagsDem]

56. Excellent analysis

Your reasons are my reasons re: MI. I think he has a better case to make so his insisting it not count may be less offensive to them, and it's just more reliably blue through recent years. I agree though, he took his name off the ballot there specifically to pander to Iowa.

And yes, he is hosed without FL in my estimation. I don't see where he makes it up. The basic problem here is that he believes the media hype and his supporters believe it. Unforunately for him and his supporters it IS hype. He barely has a majority of dem primary voters on his side, but to hear the media and his supporters tell it, the GE is all over but for the coronation. It's as if the electoral map is irrelevant or something.

And this, before the rethugs have even got a chance to take a swing at him. Putting aside racial politics, he has so many areas of vulnerability. His statements about foriegn policy alone will probably bury him once they are exploited by McCain. This is a race we should be able to win, and he is far from the best we can put forward. It ticks me off that we seem determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[rodeodance]

53. I have a brother down there---he and his friends say kiss off if not seated.

[MagsDem]

57. Hopefully the DNC is smart enough to figure that out

Right now they are just praying those delegates will be irrelevant. Obama's supporters fail to take into consideration that he needs to win it much bigger than he is now if he wants to those delegates to out of the picture.

[rodeodance]

59. my guess is that the DNC is leaning that way.

[LiberalAndProud]

65. Can either of them win Florida?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

64. OBAMA? how crazy is that?

you guys forget to take your reality pills? or do you just make stuff up on command from Penn?

[LiberalAndProud]

66. Clinton is fighting for them to be seated, Obama is not.

Perception is everything.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

67. perception is many things, but not every thing.

Look at Condi Rice. For years she coasted on her skin color, her sex, her piano skills, her ice skating, and her dated, unreadable thesis on an anciet soviet 5 yr. plan. The perception of her was one of strength, ingenuity, education, and smarts.

More recently, the perception has given way to reality, and it ain't purty. Richard Clarke started taking off the tarnish from her halo, but the GOP, Neocons, & Bush White House goose-stepped to protect her. (and themselves).
Other tidbits have come out, showing her to be a fragile, brittle, opinionated, angry, close-minded, dim-witted, sycophantic admirer of George, and totally out of her league in both the NSC and State. I suspect that the final blow comes in
THE COMMISSION - THE UNCENSORED HISTORY OF THE 9/11 INVESTIGATION by Philip Shenon.

Without the name calling, pointing of fingers or cheapshots, he makes it painfully obvious that she is a dolt, unprepared for the real world, lacking substance, and totally unsuited for her two govt. positions. It is chilling, then, how he ends the book, noticing that Phillip Zelikow was hired to be her second in command. Political "Turds of a feathe"r, so to speak.

[LiberalAndProud]

68. Coasted on her skin color?

I think you don't have a clue. She had money and connections, but her skin color is not conducive to coasting. Get a clue.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

70. to the contrary.

Condi received NO media attention after 9/11, even when she waffled in public, and many of her answers were less than, shall we say, robust?

If the NCS chief advisor had been warned, repeatedly, of upcoming attacks by a terrorist group in US territory, and responded as she did, and if that person had been a white male, I suspect that the vast majority of America would have been calling for lengthy prison sentences. Instead, she got promoted. With the support of 70% of Americans.

She has been handled with kid gloves, both because of her race and her sex, and never has she been rated on the merits.

[LiberalAndProud]

71. This entire administration got a pass.

NOTHING has been examined. And you're going to try to tell me that she got a pass because she's not white?

pssssttt... I have a secret ... Bush is a WHITE MALE and he's the primary beneficiary of the blind-eye syndrome that we've been suffering from over the past SEVEN LONG YEARS.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

73. ok. you got me there.

but if the 19% rating is accurate, then things are looking up for that reality thingie.

[LiberalAndProud]

74. Dare I say I hope so? Yipppeeee!

[ChairmanAgnostic]

76. mois deux

[lligrd]

61. Hillary Is Losing For One Reason Only

She sold out America. Face it, if Hillary had voted against the Bush LIES instead of going along with them Obama wouldn't even have run. She blew it. Face it and quit acting stupid.

[cali]

63. I'll repeat my standard position

Both Hillary and Obama can beat McCain in November. Both have deficits. But either of them can win it.

[Occam Bandage]

69. I thought it was because of sexism!