Some facts super delegates should take in to account....

[MagsDem]

1. The idea that people overwhelmingly prefer Barack Obama, so super delegates should follow the "will of the people", is just plain media and Obama campaign hype. The facts are that with 22 million votes cast he leads her in the popular vote total by less than 300K votes. The truth is the public is nearly evenly split on who should be the nominee.

2. All of Obama's lead in the primary delegate count is attributable to the undemocratic caucus process. It requires the people to be able to attend and vote at an exact time and remain there for untold hours in order to have their voice heard. In addition, there are typically no checks in balances in place such as checking to see if a caucus goer is even registered or lives in the precinct that would prevent manipulation of the process by campaigns. Super delegates should urge our party to end the caucus process before the next presidential election. But for this election do not give undue consideration to delegates awarded through this undemocratic process. Case in point -- WA state. In the caucus 2/3rd of 200K caucus voters preferred Obama. In the non-binding primary, where all voices were heard -- 600K voters(but not considered in the delegate distribution) the results were Obama 49%, Clinton 46%.

3. The Obama campaign has engaged in super delegate intimidation tactics, particularly toward the CBC. CBC members have been urged to vote for Obama because he is black, called Uncle Tom's for supporting Clinton, and threatened with a primary challenger in their next race if they do not knuckle under. Such tactics should never be rewarded. Had Clinton called super delegates and urged them to vote for her because she is white or because she is a woman she would have been drummed out of the race. A candidate for the democratic party should stand ready to represent ALL members of his party, and not ask or receive special consideration because of their race.

4. The Obama campaign is insisting that 1.7 million democratic voters in Florida be disenfranchised from their votes. That is 1 million more voters than cast their ballots in the 2004 primary, yet the Obama campaign contends that some voters may not have voted, so no voters voices should be heard. Do not reward a campaign that wants to silence the people's votes. Disenfranchisement is not a democratic party value.

5. Experience matters. The role of a super delegate is to be the voice of reason within the party. The Junior senator from IL has barely been in the job 3 yrs. Let's not have a repeat of the on-the-job training policy of the Bush administration that has caused so much damage over the past 8 yrs.

[stahbrett]

1. Don't worry about the superdelegates

We'll have a presumptive nominee well before the convention...

[MagsDem]

2. Obama's people seemed worried about them

And he can't get to the magic number without them. Let's hope they can refrain from buying in to the media hype.

[stahbrett]

6. That's because Obama's campaign actually has contingency plans

While Clinton's campaign had only a "Plan A" (we'll win the Iowa and NH, then wrap things up on Super Tuesday), Obama's campaign actually has the forethought to plan ahead for multiple scenarios.

But Hillary will suspend her campaign well before the convention, possibly in as few as 4-5 days if we're lucky, so we can move on to the business of the general election full-time.

[MagsDem]

9. You're dreaming

[stahbrett]

13. Maybe so

I just want this primary to be over, to be honest. It's so clear (to me) that Hillary will not be able to catch up in pledged delegates, given the way the delegates are doled out. I don't think Florida's invalid election results, if used to dole out delegates (which I do not think will happen unless they made no difference to the nomination), would even let her catch up.

Superdelegates are moving in one direction, and her lead in those has shrunk considerably.

So my guess/hope/dream is that if she does not appear ready to drop out after Tuesday (where the likely outcome is for a very minimal gain/loss in the delegate difference), that there will be some movement by the likes of Gore, Edwards, and Pelosi to encourage her to step aside for the good of the party, and that she'll actually listen.

[MagsDem]

15. She'd be behind by about 20 with FL, I believe

But in Obama la la land that means he is the "clear choice" of ALL americans. The hype is enough to gag a person.

[stahbrett]

19. You like putting words in people's mouths

Obama has a lead in pledged delegates. He has won the last 11 elections. He has won something like 26 of 37 elections. FL and MI had higher turnouts in the Republican primaries than the Democratic ones, defying the trend in almost every other contest, where Democrats are attracting 2-3 times as many voters.

And more importantly from this point forward, he has the lead in delegates, and delegates are allocated proportionally. So in order to wind up with more delegates, Hillary needs to win by unprecedented margins, and it's just not going to happen.

So the hope for her campaign is to overcome her deficit in pledged delegates by somehow convincing these superdelegates to vote for her. That's just not going to happen either - most of these are politicians, and most superdelegates are moving to Obama's camp already.

[MagsDem]

23. Why should they vote for him when it is that close?

Just because, or what? The role of super delegates is to vote for whomever they prefer. You want those rules changed for Obama?

[stahbrett]

26. I did not say anything at all about changing the rules

There you go again putting words in people's mouths.

I simply do not think that the superdelegates will do what you hope that they do. They will not vote against the candidate with the most pledged delegates. How you twisted that into me saying that I want the rules changed is beyond me.

[MagsDem]

32. It's happened before

When it's basically tied up they get the deciding votes. If Obama is far ahead in the end, then you're probably right. But if it comes down to FL and the supers I hope they do the right thing and stick by her.

[Forkboy]

57. And yet you started a thread about them.

[AX10]

3. K & R for all to see!

[The Doctor.]

39. Yep...

:popcorn:

[anonymous171]

4. I can't believe you.

Shameless partisan. BTW, the party doesn't like Clinton very much, so number 5 may not matter.

[MagsDem]

5. If the party didn't like Clinton, Obama people wouldn't be...

threatened CBC reps to vote for him or else.

[anonymous171]

7. You know that it's not that simple.

Do you really want Clinton to not win the popular vote? The party does not like Clinton because they don't like the party.

[MagsDem]

8. Sorry, your post makes no sense to me

Was it supposed to? Please, clarify?

[JimGinPA]

10. Judging From Your OP - Your Pants Must Be On Fire

It's all lies.

[MagsDem]

12. Like what, specifically?

You love to come in to a thread, call it a lie with no specifics, and then just sit back. Every damn word I posted is true. You know, I remember back in Bush's early days, the flame wars dems would have with rethugs on the Slate forums. Dems would post something that made excellent, factual points about Bush's bullshit, and then would come a host of rethugs posting nothing but "liar, liar, liar." It was so immature as to be laughable, but somehow they felt like big stuff -- mostly I suspect because the rest of the public was buying the Bush bullshit, too.

[quakerboy]

16. Specifics of a lie

In the voting, including all of the votes(yes, even florida and mn) Obama is still up near a million votes. not 300k, but 928k. If we don't count the elections that Hillary Clinton referred to as a "beauty contest", then he is up by 1.36 million votes.

(edited for specificity)

[MagsDem]

24. Oh it's a lie because you want to throw out 1.7 million votes

I see. LMAO. If Obama gets away with that you might just as well concede FL in the GE right now. But no, I am not lying when I say the popular vote total separates them by 300K out of 22 million votes cast.

[quakerboy]

56. Yes, you are.

Obama is up by 928,869 votes. With EVERY vote counted. Including your vaunted Florida. If you leave it out, then it jumps up to 1,360,043 votes that Obama is ahead by.

Try again liar.

[JimGinPA]

28. Each Point Of Your Op Is A LIE

1. Closer to a million vote lead for Obama - LIE

2. The RULES are determined IN ADVANCE by each state. Your premise that it somehow favors one candidate over another is ridiculous. She campaigned poorly and lost because of failure to ORGANIZE. - LIE

3. The Obama HAS NOT engaged in any intimidation of Super delegates. Their constituents and some black organizations may have warned them they were on the wrong side of history. - LIE

4.The Florida Dems broke the rule moving their primary up. Everyone agreed not to campaign, knowing THE DELEGATES WOULD NOT BE COUNTED. Your GIRL is the one whining about changing the ruling. - LIE

5. Her 35 years of "experience" is the biggest LIE of all.

[MagsDem]

36. Nope, not a lie

1. You want to pretend 1.7 million voters in FL did not vote, but they did.

2. I didn't say it favored one candidate over another -- I said it was undemocratic. And WA pretty much proves that beyond a reasonable doubt. Same state, same candidates but a very different result when you let all voters have an opportunity to express their preference.

3. So everyone that has complained about that is lying? Hell there were robo calls made to John Lewis' district accusing him of being an uncle tom.

4. The voters broke no rule. The facts that Mr. Change from the Bottom Up, who champions the "people" have a voice wants to disenfranchise 1.7 voters. Do you think the party wants to kiss FL good bye in the GE? Only if they are insane. Right now they are praying it doesn't matter. But your "champion of the people" candidate is still full of it.

5. She was working on children's poverty and health care issues when your candidate was still getting his undergrad degree. That is certainly not a lie.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MagsDem]

41. Yes, we know, everyone that doesn't support Obama is a troll

We all know the drill. "It's a lie" "You're a liar" "You're a racist" "You're a troll"

Same old story.

[Forkboy]

58. Not everyone. Just certain ones.

Some of the ones who don't like Hillary are trolls too, so don't feel left out.

[wileedog]

45. No they did not

"1. You want to pretend 1.7 million voters in FL did not vote, but they did."

They didn't. They really, really didn't.

They walked into a booth and pulled a lever, but it meant absolutely nothing. They may as well have been pulling the lever on a slot machine, it had the same political significance and at least they may have won a couple of bucks.

[MagsDem]

48. No, they voted -- you just want to ignore them

I'm not talking about seating delegates from FL. I trust the DNC will work that out eventually. However, the supers should keep in mind it's pure media hype to pretend that Obama is anything close to the overwhelming choice of voters. He just isn't. Out of 22 million votes cast so far he is only besting her by 300K. When TX, PA, and OH are done it will probably be even less than that.

[Blue_Roses]

11. something tells me that there aren't many superdelegates

reading this...

[MagsDem]

14. Oh but DFA and Move On told me I should write to them....

and DEMAND they vote for Obama. I just thought I try out a draft here, and of course others are free to pick whatever parts they might want to use as well. Thanks for your concern about it getting to the right place, though.

[Blue_Roses]

18. how funny you should say that.

I know a few who have sent their polished "drafts" too ...and they didn't even have to "showboat" them here first.:D

But you did itemize them well and I didn't see any grammatical errors so send that puppy on...

Happy Writing!

[MagsDem]

25. Thanks for the kic!

:) LOL!

[Upton]

17. Don't know where you got that 300K figure

unless you're including Mich. and Fla. In the actual contested caucuses and primaries Obama has received close to a million more votes. So, your claim is incorrect in stating they are "nearly evenly split", Obama is the clear choice. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

[MagsDem]

27. Popular vote means the number of votes expressing a preference

Now I know Obama wants to make sure those votes don't get counted but they certainly were 1.7 million voters expressing a preference.

[MadHound]

20. Ha!

1. Close only counts in horseshoes, handgrenades and hydrogen bombs. The fact of the matter is that Obama is indeed leading in pledged delegates and the popular vote. So what if Obama's lead is only 300,000, it is still a lead. What, do we start giving elections away to the second place candidate just because they came close?

2. First of all, Clinton and Obama were playing on the same field as each other, they knew what they were getting into and what they had to do. Hillary's plan was a complete frontal assault, and she figured that she wouldn't need the caucus states, or any states for that matter, after Super Tuesday. She planned poorly, had no Plan B, and got beat by Obama's better campaign strategy and better ground game. As far as being undemocratic goes, frankly caucus' are an outgrowth of one of the quinessentially democratic institutions of this country's history, the town meeting.

3. What proof do you have of this? If you're relying on what Cleaver is saying, then I suggest that you stop, Cleaver has a well known habit of exagerating matters. Let's see what other proof you have, links, etc.

4. Actually it was the Democratic party that made this decision, as punishment for Florida moving up their primary, violating party rules. And frankly, it's not going to be up to Obama or Hillary, it will be up to the party leadership to decide whether or not the delegates from Florida or Michigan get seated.

5. Experience does matter, and frankly it is the experience of watching a supposedly liberal Senator from New York vote in favor of enabling Bush's illegal, immoral war that has turned us away from Hillary. So yes, while experience counts for something, judgment counts for more. Besides, what sort of experience did Bill have coming into office. Oh, yeah, governor of Arkansas, the same sort of experience you decry Bush having, and less national experience than Obama has.

[Johnny__Motown]

21. Your numbers are false, so much for FACTS

The popular vote total you use is wrong.


It is only close if you include Michigan (where Obama's name was not on the ballot so his total there/here is 0) and Florida, both of which should not count because these both were held against party rules.

Even with these states (that don't count) the totals are 10,881,617 to 10,579,117 the difference is 302,500 which is still more than 300,000 not less as you claim. Without them Obama has nearly one million more votes than Clinton.

Also you claim that not counting Florida (and I assume Michigan) would be disenfranchising them. This is simply false. Many people did not vote because they were told ahead of time that there were no delegates at stake. Assigning delegates after the fact disenfranchises these potential voters. We already had to live through one illegitimate incompetent dynastic president because of a screwed up Florida process, don't expect us to allow another one.

Both Florida and Michigan have been told that if they held a caucus those contests would count and their delegates would be assigned according to the outcome of the caucus. If disenfranchisement is truly the issue then these contests should be held as soon as possible.

It really is sad that you need to lie to make a case for your candidate, and claiming that these are facts to be considered just makes it worse.


This fact should be considered, you can't make a case for your candidate without lying.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

[MagsDem]

22. The numbers are not false at all

What you want to do is pretend no on in FL voted. But they did, and they expressed a clear opinion. My numbers are false just because you want to pretend they didn't vote? Not hardly.

As for your claim that people didn't vote in FL because they didn't think it would count, you're pulling that straight out of your rear end. Not a single documented person in FL has made that claim, and in fact their media, their reps, and their party chairs urged them to vote and assured them it would be counted toward the nomination.

As for caucuses they are a chief CAUSE of disenfranchisement of voters in a primary process, that is why they should be ended.

You know, if your guy were REALLY winning by a mile like you all like to claim, you wouldn't have to insist that 1.7 million voters have their votes cast aside as if they didn't exist. Reminds of the shit Bush pulled in Florida -- don't count the votes, don't count the votes!!!

[Johnny__Motown]

29. Hillary said they would not count on 9/1/06, also lead is over 300k no matter what

You are counting Florida to distort the truth.


Your opinion of caucuses is irrelevant. They count, deal with it. Just because your candidate was so over confident that she could not be bothered with the work it takes to win a caucus does not mean they are unfair.


Have another vote, it will count. Or go do some real research. HILLARY said they would not count, end of story.

Obama is winning and if we were not worried about another illegitimate president cheating his/her way into office because of Florida this would not be an issue at all.

[MagsDem]

43. But Obama said supers should follow the will of the people...

Is it the will of the people, only minus FL voters? LOL!

[Johnny__Motown]

50. In sanctioned contests, come on. Can't you see the stretch you are making on this one?

[RunningFromCongress]

30. McCain dwarfs Clintons experience...why make it the staple of your campaign?

[MagsDem]

37. Clinton vs Obama is basically no experience vs much experience

That isn't the case between Clinton and McCain.

[wileedog]

31. *sigh*

" 1. The idea that people overwhelmingly prefer Barack Obama, so super delegates should follow the "will of the people", is just plain media and Obama campaign hype. The facts are that with 22 million votes cast he leads her in the popular vote total by less than 300K votes. The truth is the public is nearly evenly split on who should be the nominee. "

But he still DOES lead in the popular vote, even if this made any sense in our system, which it doesn't.

"2. All of Obama's lead in the primary delegate count is attributable to the undemocratic caucus process."

The system we started the game with has declared Obama a winner. If the superdelegates decide arbitrarily discount the caucus system, mid election, which has been around a heck of a lot longer than "superdelegates" have, the resulting riot, fracture and death of the party will be well deserved.

"3. The Obama campaign has engaged in super delegate intimidation tactics, particularly toward the CBC."

Pure speculation and heresay. Is this how we decide on our candidates now?

"4. The Obama campaign is insisting that 1.7 million democratic voters in Florida be disenfranchised from their votes. "

Such misinformational bullshit is worthy of Rove.

The Florida Democratic Party insisted that 1.7 million democratic voters in Florida be disenfranchised from their votes. Hillary Clinton before the election AGREED. I will say that again more slowly for you.

Hillary. Agreed. That. The. Florida. Vote. Should. Not. Count. (before she won it).

"5. Experience matters."

Call me when she has some being President. To date she has been a lackluster Senator with very little more Foreign Policy experience than Obama.

And no, being First Lady doesn't count for shit.

[MagsDem]

42. But I thought Obama wanted supers to vote with the will of the people

Isn't that what he has said? He just thinks the will of the people is defined by not counting voters, and intimidating CBC members, apparently. Sounds like Bush in Florida.

[wileedog]

47. The will of the people

Is Obama, by your own distorted figures, by 300k.

What was your argument again?

[MagsDem]

49. You can always go back and re-read it

Be my guest. :) Supers can vote for whom they think is best, and I give 5 reasons why he isn't.

[wileedog]

52. 5 Reason?

Well we've proved number 1 wrong. 300K is 300K, the will of the poeple is Obama. That's 4 reasons.

#2 - caucuses. I don't really see how the democratic efficiency of caucuses actually proves that Hillary is a better candidate than Obama. I doubt we would be having this conversation if Hillary had won those states, much like her husband Bill offered nary a challange to that system when he was winning 2 elections by them. Well OK, 3 reasons.

Hmm, then there are the alleged intimidation tactics. Completely unprovable of course, but handy for internet innuendo. Not sure this in some way proves that Hillary will be a better candidate than Obama. DOwn to 2.

And then there a bunch of discounted votes in Florida. Luckily, Hillary herself agreed that the votes shouldn't count. Phew. That could have been a contentious issue. So that leaves one.

Ah experience. So your argument is that the superdelegates will overthrow the clear 'will of the people', the clear choice given the Democratic system that has been utterly fine for every candidate before Hillary entered it, including her own friggin husband, because Hillary got to travel to a bunch of countries as first lady. Damn, hope Laura Bush doesn't enter the fray, things will get really hairy.

You've given no reasons for anything, merely desperate spin.

[bilgewaterbill]

33. 1. Your number only works if you count MI & FL. Sorry but

they chose not to count. BO leads by nearly 1 million popular votes.

2.Don't recall Hillary complaining about caucuses BEFORE she lost them.

3.I'm calling "BULLSHIT" on these reports.

4. See #1. FL made its own bed.

5. Your opinion. YOU ARE WRONG! My opinion.

[MagsDem]

40. You can't pretend FL didn't vote

1. Sorry, they did vote, and they expressed a very clear preference. Super delegates are being told to follow the will of the people. FL certainly counts as the will of the people.

2. I'm not Hillary, and I'm complaining about them. But again, it's about the will of the people so say the Obama folks. WA state is a very clear example that the will of the people is not expressed through the caucus system.

3. Yeah, okay. So groups call on people to do it, then people claim the harassment is taking place. But you call BS. I think the supers know it is taking place since many of their fellow supers are the ones being harassed.

4. I thought Obama folks said the will of the people should be respected? LOL -- apparently only the will of the people in the states that voted for Obama.

5. 15 yrs of experience either in the WH or senate working on policy issues versus 3 yrs seems pretty factual to me. How is that my opinion? Or is like FL and you want to use some special Obama-math?

[Johnny__Motown]

44. You can't pretend that it was a legal vote, Hillary said they would not count, everyone knew it clue

[MagsDem]

46. I'm not talking about seating pledged delegates from FL

I'm saying the supers should realize that if all the votes are counted it's just pure hype to say that he is any sort of clear choice of the democratic party. That's just bullshit. He isn't.

[bilgewaterbill]

51. I ain't pretending jack!

1. When FL voted to move up its primary against party wishes, THEY KNEW THERE WOULD BE CONSEQUENCES!!

2. Alright then YOU didn't complain about the caucuses until Hillary lost.

3. BULLSHIT!! One recorded phone call (a Hillary trademark) and Obama would be toast. DIDN'T HAPPEN!

4. FL and MI would be non-issues if all else stayed the same and they had voted for Obama. YOU KNOW IT!

5. It's your opinion that "experience" is the overriding issue. YOU ARE WRONG! That's my opinion.

[wileedog]

34. Oops

*double post*

[LadyVT]

35. K & R! Great post.

[Forkboy]

59. Fuckin A! Awesome post Mofo!

:party:

[mrbluto]

53. The Nomination process is a Fiasco.

It doesn't produce the best nominees when it comes to actually governing. Maybe we should consider what this post says: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4829034&mesg_id=4829034">The Three-Arm Baby

[last1standing]

54. Hmm....Let's take this piece by piece, shall we?

1. The idea that people overwhelmingly prefer Barack Obama, so super delegates should follow the "will of the people", is just plain media and Obama campaign hype. The facts are that with 22 million votes cast he leads her in the popular vote total by less than 300K votes. The truth is the public is nearly evenly split on who should be the nominee.

I don't disagree here at all. This is a very closely contested race and is in no way finished.

2. All of Obama's lead in the primary delegate count is attributable to the undemocratic caucus process. It requires the people to be able to attend and vote at an exact time and remain there for untold hours in order to have their voice heard. In addition, there are typically no checks in balances in place such as checking to see if a caucus goer is even registered or lives in the precinct that would prevent manipulation of the process by campaigns. Super delegates should urge our party to end the caucus process before the next presidential election. But for this election do not give undue consideration to delegates awarded through this undemocratic process. Case in point -- WA state. In the caucus 2/3rd of 200K caucus voters preferred Obama. In the non-binding primary, where all voices were heard -- 600K voters(but not considered in the delegate distribution) the results were Obama 49%, Clinton 46%.

Perhaps a little history lesson on how the ancient Greeks (you know, the people who invented democracy) voted would help you out. There are plenty of sites out there that will tell you that they got together for hours to discuss and vote on the various issues. They didn't just cram a piece of papyrus into a box and go their merry way. They participated. How odd.

3. The Obama campaign has engaged in super delegate intimidation tactics, particularly toward the CBC. CBC members have been urged to vote for Obama because he is black, called Uncle Tom's for supporting Clinton, and threatened with a primary challenger in their next race if they do not knuckle under. Such tactics should never be rewarded. Had Clinton called super delegates and urged them to vote for her because she is white or because she is a woman she would have been drummed out of the race. A candidate for the democratic party should stand ready to represent ALL members of his party, and not ask or receive special consideration because of their race.

The only place I've heard of this from was a hit piece in a Seattle paper that for some reason wasn't able to attribute anything to a source other than "a young Chicago blogger". If that's what you're running with, you don't have much here.

4. The Obama campaign is insisting that 1.7 million democratic voters in Florida be disenfranchised from their votes. That is 1 million more voters than cast their ballots in the 2004 primary, yet the Obama campaign contends that some voters may not have voted, so no voters voices should be heard. Do not reward a campaign that wants to silence the people's votes. Disenfranchisement is not a democratic party value.

So you are all for disenfranchising the hundreds of thousands who didn't vote due to the fact that the primary was invalid, but you're completely against a re-vote, paid for by the DNC as Howard Dean has already offered, that would settle this once and for all. And I suppose the same goes for Michigan where the other two major candidates weren't even on the ballot. That's extremely democratic of you.

5. Experience matters. The role of a super delegate is to be the voice of reason within the party. The Junior senator from IL has barely been in the job 3 yrs. Let's not have a repeat of the on-the-job training policy of the Bush administration that has caused so much damage over the past 8 yrs.

Experience does matter. I just prefer the experience that doesn't lead us into a war that kills hundreds of thousands of innocent people, creates a haven for terrorists, leads to worldwide hatred for the U.S. and most of all I prefer experience that doesn't make the same damned decision when it comes to Iran four years later. If that's the kind of experience you are looking for then I can't say that I agree with your choice. I mean, you can claim bush* had no experience, but the guy who ran things, Cheney, sure did and he got everything he wanted, too. Tax cuts for the ultra wealthy, endless wars, soaring profits with stagnating wages, offshoring, erosion of constitutional rights..... Experience just sounds better and better.

So all this seems to come down to the fact that you're all for democracy so long as it's votes for you candidate that get counted and the possible votes for the other person don't, you have no problem making claims that can't be backed up with any real proof, and you're all for experience regardless of who bad the decisions of the experienced party are.

Hmm....don't want the votes counted for everyone.....willing to smear without proof....experience, not judgment means everything. That sounds like a McCain supporter to me.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

61. I heartily applaud your patience, fortitude and intelligence.

If you are in need of overt emotional accolades, I would be happy to accommodate.

For now, I will just add a thank you.

[BigBearJohn]

55. HOUSTON PRESS: Barack Obama and Me

http://www.houstonpress.com/2008-02-28/news/barack-obama-screamed-at-me/2

[cali]

60. Wow. Another less than fully truthful OP

blow me over with a feather. i'm shocked.

tough. SDs see the writing on the wall. they will not be endorsing Hillary. they are endorsing Obama in greater and greater numbers. they know more than you. some of them like my senator and rep, endorsed him while Hillary was still the favorite. others are jumping on now.

it's just about over. if hillary loses OH or TX, no matter what she says, SDs will not be endorsing her. Dean said that it won't be going to the convention. most people can see that. if she stays in after losing in either of those states, she'll become a joke, a curiosity.