It's simple: I would have supported Hillary if she voted against the IWR

[senseandsensibility]

Post here if you agree.

That's it, Hillary supporters. That's why I'm not supporting her. No sexism, no "infatuation" with Obama, no concern about her likability. She did not make the right choice when she had a chance to save us from this war.

The fact that she now tries to present herself as some kind of expert on foreign affairs just rubs salt in the wound.

[MethuenProgressive]

1. Then you should read what BO himself said about her vote:

2006 -- Statement by Senator Barack Obama on the subjects of Senator Hillary Clinton and the Iraq War Vote, New Yorker Magazine:

"You know, I think very highly of Hillary. The more I get to know her, the more I admire her. I think she’s the most disciplined—one of the most disciplined people—I’ve ever met. She’s one of the toughest. She’s got an extraordinary intelligence. And she is, she’s somebody who’s in this stuff for the right reasons. She’s passionate about moving the country forward on issues like health care and children. So it’s not clear to me what differences we’ve had since I’ve been in the Senate.

"I think what people might point to is our different assessments of the war in Iraq, although I’m always careful to say that I was not in the Senate, so perhaps the reason I thought it was such a bad idea was that I didn’t have the benefit of U.S. intelligence. And, for those who did, it might have led to a different set of choices. So that might be something that sort of is obvious. But, again, we were in different circumstances at that time: I was running for the U.S. Senate, she had to take a vote, and casting votes is always a difficult test."

read more. . .

http://guerillawomentn.blogspot.com /

[senseandsensibility]

3. Thank you for the thoughtful response

I had read that quote before, and I am under no illusion that Obama absolutely would have done the right thing. Also, as you can see from my avatar, I support a candidate who voted the same way as Hillary. Unlike her, he apologized and recognized his mistake. In a perfect world, I would choose Kucinich, or someone else with a flawless record on this issue. But now that it is down to these two candidates, I can not select the one that had the power and made the wrong choice, especially since she does not even recognize her mistake. I do not accept her waffling at the last debate as recognition of her mistake.

[dansolo]

26. He cosponsored the damn thing

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time trusting Edwards' sincerity since he cosponsored the IWR.

[bellasgrams]

39. Sorry you feel that way about Hillary, but she's not a saint, she

doesn't walk on water and she can't please everyone at every minute all the time. She's human. I wouldn't have voted for the war sitting here in my armchair, but I wasn't briefed with the intellicgence reports. How was she and 77 other senators to know that the Pres. and all his people including Colin Powell were lying? For your children's sake I hope they never make a mistake you can't get over.

[Oleladylib]

5. Best and most educated response to original post..retrospect is a great teacher.

[rodeodance]

7. He has changed his tune--now he is using it against her and his supporters are doing the same. Both

are being hypocritical.

[RiverStone]

14. 22 other Dems and 1 Independent Senator had access to the...

...same U.S, intelligence, and saw through the smoke and mirrors and voted NO. Obama's words are gracious, but we will never know had he read the same intelligence, if he would have exercised the same wisdom that the 23 Senators (and many more in Congress) had in voting NO.

I suspect Obama would have joined the NO voters who like most DUers, felt at the time it was an authorization for Shrub to war.

In the end, this is all conjecture. What's real is Hillary voted YES - and she has never said it was a mistake. No amount of speculation will change that simple fact.

[MethuenProgressive]

27. Bush violated the "IWR" he didn't follow the law - how is *that* Clinton's fault?

No military person in my family, no military person I know, blames Bush's war on anyone but Bush.

[jenmito]

34. She was either naive enough to believe Bush or doing it for political reasons...

And she didn't even read the NIE!!!

[RiverStone]

36. Yea, Shrub drove the car - but Hillary et. al. gave him the keys...n/t

[Omega3]

45. so did Kerry, Kennedy and Dodd, it wasn't anybody's fault that he rushed to war and mismanaged, you

act like it was a tied vote and HC cast the tiebreaker....

[dailykoff]

51. Kennedy didn't vote for the IWR.

Dodd I don't know about, but Kennedy was against it from the start.

[RiverStone]

55. Hillary is no more or less guilty then all the other war enablers...

The only difference is she is (still) running for president and everybody else who voted for it has already dropped out and/or admitted it was a mistake.

This question will not go away.

[bellasgrams]

40. RiverStone, what do the words 'I made a mistake' mean.

[boston bean]

37. He is such a liar. He was not running for US Senate in 2002!!!!!!!

[vi5]

2. Kyl-Leiberman did it for me...

I can forgive the IWR vote as much as I disagree with it.

But falling for the same thing on Kyl-Leiberman with Iran was just a total deal breaker since it proved to me that she either was so deluded as to not learn the blatant lesson from the IWR vote, or so craven as to risk other people's lives just so she seemed "strong" on national security.

Yes, I know Obama wasn't there for the vote but to me at worst that displays an agnosticism on the subject which while I don't agree with entirely either is still less craven and offensive than a yes vote.

[MethuenProgressive]

11. BO's own bill was almost exactly like K/L, but had stronger language.

Didn't know that, did you?

[dailykoff]

17. Hillary voted for Kyl-Lieberman, and Obama didn't.

She also voted for the IWR, and Obama ran as an anti-war candidate. Let's stick to the facts.

[MethuenProgressive]

20. Obama submitted a bill almost exactly the same as K/l, but with stronger language.

And then ran awaywhaen K/L came up for a vote. 98 Senators voted on K/L, but BO claimed it was a "surprise" vote? That's sad.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/110-s970/show

[dailykoff]

22. Fine, let's see it.

[MethuenProgressive]

32. You don't even know Obama's record? wow. Here's the bill he sponsored that was like K/L:

Here's an excerpt from a bill Obama sponsored, that does the same thing as a bill he criticizes HIllary for voting for:

S.970
(8) The Secretary of State should designate the Iranian Revolutionary Guards as a Foreign Terrorist Organization under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1189) and the Secretary of the Treasury should place the Iranian Revolutionary Guards on the list of Specially Designated Global Terrorists under Executive Order 13224 (66 Fed. Reg. 186; relating to blocking property and prohibiting transactions with persons who commit, threaten to commit, or support terrorism).

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/110-s970/show

[dailykoff]

35. "Nothing in this Act should be construed as giving the President the authority

to use military force against Iran." You left that part out.

[Tom Joad]

59. anyone with eyes should know that Obama is as warmongering and

willing to cater to the aipac crowd as Hillary Rodham Clinton.

[dailykoff]

41. For the record, it was submitted by Sen. Gordon Smith, NOT Obama.

Obama was one of 70 Senate co-sponsors (that's 70 out of 100) including Boxer, Durbin, Kerry, and Kennedy.

[bellasgrams]

44. You've been blinded by BOmainia and wouldn't recognize a

fact from fiction if it jumped out at you.

[dailykoff]

43. Obama was one of 70 Senate co-sponsors. It was Gordon Smith's bill.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/110-s970/show

[Tom Joad]

61. and it was stupid as hell. god, when that phone rings at 3 in the morning, i want it

answered by no one!

[senseandsensibility]

16. Agreed

She had a chance to redeem herself.

[Omega3]

47. at least she had the courage to vote, he didn't and that's the difference

[vi5]

57. The courage to vote for another blank check....

Thanks, but no thanks. I'll take someone who has some fears about making such a decision rather than one who thinks it's courageous to either fall for the same thing twice or put more more lives at risk to seem "strong" enough.

[Aviation Pro]

4. Tell me....

...have you ever made a wrong choice before? Try as we might to build each candidate into some infallible mythological creature in the end they are only human. Both Senator Obama and Clinton are good candidates, but they are subject to the same frailties as all of us and where Senator Clinton was in a position to make a decision, Senator Obama was not.

[senseandsensibility]

8. No I have never made a mistake

:sarcasm: :) Seriously, I am more than willing to forgive those that recognize their mistakes. My support of Edwards is proof of that.

[Johnny__Motown]

6. I think almost everyone would have. No other candidate would ever have had a shot at her

[senseandsensibility]

10. Exactly

The nomination would have been hers for the asking.

[bellasgrams]

46. Your name doesn't seem to fit you. She admitted she made

a mistake what is she suppose to do get on her knees and grovel. If she did, that still wouldn't satisfy you Republican lite BO supporters.

[senseandsensibility]

58. Who are you to call me republican light?

A Hillary supporter? I have spent my life working the trenches. Your post is only worthy of one response. Hey, everybody! The Hillbot thinks I'm repub lite! now.rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ContinentalOp]

9. It's not even so much about the judgement that went behind it.

Maybe it was an honest mistake on Clinton's part. Maybe Obama would have voted the same had he been in the Senate. That's not the point.

The point is that her IWR vote completely destroys any ability to attack McCain on the Iraq issue during the general election. It's the same thing that happened with Kerry. Why do we want to go through that again?

[senseandsensibility]

38. Yes that's another consideration

But not the most important one, IMHO. Still, I get your point. We need to win, and anything that keeps us from doing that is a concern.

[sellitman]

49. That is a VERY important fact.

It's gonna suck more for the repiggies when the voter are left with a clear choice.

[Evergreen Emerald]

12. you have an Edwards picture --and he sponsored IWR

Did you decide not to vote for him for the same reason?

[senseandsensibility]

13. I pointed that out myself in two posts above

But thanks.

[Enrique]

19. suppose Hillary apologized?

[senseandsensibility]

21. At this late date when she's desperate?

I suppose I would have to hear the apology first.:shrug:

[Enrique]

28. suppose she apologized at the same time Edwards did

[senseandsensibility]

42. I'm not sure I get the point of hypotheticals

but if she had done exactly what Edwards did, I would have supported her.

[Evergreen Emerald]

23. I don't understand then your stance

Edwards not only voted for it, he was a sponsor of it.

Clinton has said time and again that the vote was a mistake and if she had it to do over again she would not have done it.

[senseandsensibility]

31. Edwards sincerely apologized

No waffling. And he did it on his own VERY early in the campaign. No one had to drag it out of him. He volunteered.

[Evergreen Emerald]

33. I see...so hers was not sincere enough for you?

!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

15. did you vote for Kerry in 04?

[senseandsensibility]

18. Yes

I voted for him in the general, and I will vote for Hillary in the general if she is the nominee.

[libbygurl]

24. .

Love the sig pic. I had to do a double-take, though! LOL!

[dailykoff]

29. Kerry was running against Bush, not Obama.

He also admitted that Bush had misled the country into war.

[Milo_Bloom]

25. Most likely...

I can't say 100% for sure, because there were so many other cowardly votes in her brief history, No Child Left Behind, Patriot Act, 2001 Bankrupcy bill.

However, there is a large difference between legislation like the above, that can be removed if it doesn't work and sending people off to die for your political future... so I could have forgiven the votes above and most likely would be supporter her now (unless there was a challenger who was more courageous on all votes)... However, sending people off to die for your own political gains is a deal breaker and she will never ever receive my vote because of it.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

30. Obama's record is even less defensible...He said he was against the war UNTIL he had a Senate vote!!

He said he was against the war until he had a Senate vote. Then he voted for each and every pro-war appropriation

[amborin]

48. but how come Obama

would have done the same....if he's sincere:

"Samantha Power, one of Senator Obama’s chief foreign policy advisers, strongly criticized the United States in her book “A Problem From Hell” for failing to intervene in the 1994 genocide in Rwanda and for the three-year delay in intervening in the Bosnian war, until the 1995 Srebrenica massacre.

Saddam Hussein also committed genocide by killing thousands of Iraqi Kurds with chemical weapons in the late 1980s and massacring thousands of Shiite marsh dwellers in southern Iraq after the first gulf war. How could we have left Mr. Hussein in power? How can Senator Obama say that removing a genocidal killer was a “dumb” war?"

[sellitman]

50. I wouldn't have voted for her anyway

I am like many in this country who have just had enough bush & Clintons in the White House.

Call it fatigue or anything else but it's a fact.

[jazzjunkysue]

52. It is that simple. Her vote proves she's part of the cabal.

She will protect the multinational corporations that right now control our government. She will protect B* and all the neocons.

Wishfull thinking doesn't change her votes.

[JVS]

53. If she'd voted against IWR and dropped the hawkishness that has accompainied it with stuff like Iran

Yeah, she'd have gotten my support.

[Tom Joad]

54. i would have supported Hillary if she also opposed bill Clinton's war against Iraq

bombing and deadly sanctions included.

[leftofthedial]

56. It's not just her vote then

It is also her unqualified support for king george's illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq after that. If she felt so betrayed by what he did after she wrote him the IWR blank check, why did she KEEP on writing more checks to fund the occupation?

It is also her doubletalk now, trying to justify now what was then an inexcusable lack of either judgment or principle or both. Like king george, she is unable to admit ANY mistake.

[paulk]

60. I could understand that, though I wouldn't agree

if Obama had been in a position to vote on it. His saying he was against the IWR doesn't impress me any more than Howard Dean or Wes Clark's position in 2004 did. They weren't there, they weren't privy to the same information or the political pressure that a United States Senator is.

Considering his votes since his election I believe that Obama's vote on the IWR would have been exactly the same as Hillary's, not to mention Dodd's, Kerry's, Edwards', Biden's, etc.

ps - Hillary voting one way or the other would not have "saved us from the war". Bush said himself prior to the vote that he didn't need the authorization in order to invade. The idea that the IWR led directly to the invasion of Iraq is simply not true, and my respect for Obama has diminished significantly exactly because he is pushing this lie.

[bklyncowgirl]

62. Early on I ruled out anyone who had voted for it.

Since I wanted someone with experience as a chief executive and of course foreign policy knowhow, I went for Richardson. When he dropped out I wavered between Kuchinich (a great protest vote) or Obama.

I voted for Obama.