I have a serious question for the Obama supporters on this board.

[Arkansas Granny]

I can understand how Obama's message of hope and change inspires many of you to be very enthusiastic in you support. I can understand the excitement of supporting a candidate that you truly believe in.

My question is, what is it about Obama's message of hope and change that inspires some of you to reach the level of animosity, negativity and even hatred toward Hillary Clinton and her supporters that I see expressed in this forum lately?

I support Hillary Clinton, but if Obama is our nominee, which now seems likely, I will support him and vote for him in the general election without hesitation. I am a Democrat.

Edited to add "some of".

[tabatha]

1. Same question.

I have seen a lot of hate directed toward Obama from Clinton supporters - or maybe they were just trolls.

[Arkansas Granny]

23. I don't mean to imply that it has all been one sided.

However, it seems like there have been many more threads where Clinton supporter get piled on for defending her positions and some really hateful things have been said to fellow posters.

[JoFerret]

27. I have not seen hate

Some despair. Some strong skepticism. A great deal of disappointment at him and his "message".Some accurate criticism. Some general antipathy toward a bland message. Some fear. Some anger. But not hate.

[adoraz]

2. couldn't you also ask

My question is (to Hillary supporters), what is it about Obama's message of hope and change that inspires you to reach the level of animosity, negativity and even hatred toward Barack Obama and his supporters that I see expressed in this forum lately?

its not just Obama people being negative, its both groups equally I'd say.

[elixir]

22. No hate of Obama here, thank you very much.

[adoraz]

54. never said all Hillary supporters

[Arkansas Granny]

48. It's both groups, but my personal observation is that it's not equally.

[Colobo]

53. It depends on where you stand. I support Obama

and I think Clinton supporters have attacked him way more than we have attacked her. You are on the other side, so you see it the other way around.

[adoraz]

55. exactly

[yardwork]

70. A DUer did a spot check one day and found it was very unequal.

There were a lot more anti-Hillary threads than anti-Obama threads. There were fewer pro-Hillary threads than pro-Obama threads.

It's my observation that the quality of nastiness directed at Hillary is worse, too.

[CPschem]

3. I don't hate hillary

and I'd certainly vote for her in Nov. To sum it up, I choose Obama over her because of her record of warmongering, fearmongering, and divisiveness.

[f the letter]

5. Fair reasons. Wish both sides could relax a bit.

[VolcanoJen]

13. What CPschem said

:thumbsup:

[ecstatic]

4. I've never hated Clinton. In fact, I was a supporter previously

but her negative campaign has been a huge turnoff.

[theboss]

6. I'm only hostile to people here...I blame the internets

In the real world, I still like Hillary and get along with the few supporters of her that I know.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

7. I don't hate Hillary at all.

I just like Obama a little better, for reasons that aren't important here. I've never bashed Hillary, and I would certainly support her if she became the nominee.

One could ask the same question with respect to some Hillary supporters, who have been absolutely vitriolic in their hatred of Obama. I don't understand that, either.

[stop the bleeding]

8. I don't hate anyone with the last name Clinton

I do support Obama, I just think you have seen some posts from trolls.

[MadBadger]

9. So its acceptable for Hillary supporters to show hatred towards Obama cuz she doesnt preach hope?

[Arkansas Granny]

32. No, I don't think it's acceptable from either side. It's just been my

observation Obama supporters have been much more vocal about their negative feelings.

[MadBadger]

57. Maybe thats because DU is made up of 76% Obama Supporters and 20% Hillary

There is bound to be 3:1 more Anti-Hillary threads.

[DemGa]

10. Obama set that tone when he labeled Hillary "polarizing and divisive"

This hate comes from the top -- BO himself.

[Madam Mossfern]

16. Are you sure that it was Obama

Who labeled her polarizing and divisive? I think that came from several places. Did it originate with him?

[DemGa]

35. No, it originated with right-wing smear attacks...

Obama just used it for his gain -- a clear betrayal to Democrats. This is the source of the animosity we we here.

[Zhade]

11. Speaking as one who ISN'T an Obama supporter but OPPOSES Clinton...

...the two might not be as connected as you think.

For me, it was Clinton suggesting she gets to pick her presidential powers from the ones b*s* has illegally accumulated, coupled with her recent attempts to cheat her way out of defeat, that turned me fully against her.

Has zero to do with Obama.

[Tatiana]

12. I don't hate Clinton. And it is Hillary's own behavior that has me extremely disappointed in her.

It has not a thing to do with Obama, hope, change, or anything but Hillary Clinton.

I'd feel the exact same way if she were conducting her campaign this way with John Edwards, Joe Biden or Al Gore as her opponent.

[Bluerthanblue]

29. beautifully said- I agree

and you said what I would have liked to have had the ability to say so succinctly and well.

It isn't anything about my candidate that causes me to not want her as president- It is everything about HER behaviour.

peace

[Arkansas Granny]

36. Fair enough. I can understand those feeling.

[Nickster]

39. Nailed it. Has nothing to do with O's message, but with Hillary's campaign and tactics.

[Recursion]

14. Anonymity + Free posting = Dumbass stuff being said

I've been on the Internet since 1989 and this isn't significantly different from any time period since then, IMO.

[peacebird]

15. I would have prefered another, but support Obama over HRC

I do not trust Hillary. Her "experience" is almost all in support of business instead of people. I do not think anything about Obama's message influences my opinion of Hillary - more it was her Iraq war vote and her inability to admit it was a mistake. It was her vote declaring the Iranian guard a "terrorist group".
I do not "hate" Hillary - I just think she is unelectable in the GE and if she is the nominee - I do not believe that she will bring CHANGE. I think she will be (as a true DLCer) repuke-lite and continue most of Bush's failed policies.

[dkf]

17. My dislike of Hillary is beside the point of whomever I support

She does so many disgusting things that I simply cannot tolerate.

Her need to change rules because she sees them as a disadvantage to her, her dirty low down tricks like trying to disenfranchise students in Iowa, workers in Nevada, trying to get the Soviet-style election in Michigan to count. ARGH. I can't stand it.

And FYI, I started disliking Hillary over the 2004 election so this is absolutely not new to me and not connected with Obama.

[NoodleBoy]

18. He was the only major candidate to never be affiliated with the DLC. tha end.

That's initially why I supported him. Then I paid attention to his campaign speeches, about how we all have more in common than not, and I was sold.

[From The Left]

19. Granny

Check this.

Maybe you are myopic but try reading the garbage hurled at Barack Obama by the Hillbots.

They're irrational, illogical and outright liars. But I'm sure you will say this isn't true and blah, blah, blah, so don't waste your breath. I won't be reading your response.

[apocalypsehow]

20. YOU. HAVE. GOT. TO. BE. KIDDING. Have you seen some of your colleagues on this board?

Physician, heal thyself.

[Guava Jelly]

21. ..

what is it about Obama's message of hope and change that inspires you to reach the level of animosity, negativity and even hatred toward Hillary Clinton and her supporters that I see expressed in this forum lately?

I don't hate Hillary Clinton..
Let me just say that is hard to create a masterpiece if you paint with a broad brush.

[Johnny__Motown]

24. Wrong premise, It is not his message, it is Hillary's slime machine and slander that drives us nuts.

[C_U_L8R]

25. Granny, I used to support Hillary...

but the tactics she employed in this campaign have turned me off.
I don't hate her or her supporters but just as winners deserve every bit of their success,
the Clinton campaign has earned every loss it has incurred.
That's no way to run a campaign and that's certainly no way to run a country.
Judgement counts. And I now wholeheartedly support Obama.

[liberal N proud]

26. Great question.

It comes back to how can people say one thing and do another such as the republicons being pro life and pro war.

:shrug:

[cali]

89. says she that posted that Cindy Sheehan was to blame for her son't

death. Talk about repuke tactics. disgusting.

[liberal N proud]

90. Where are you getting this Cindy Sheehan shit?

I have never even posted anything about Sheehan, even when she was first on the scene and getting a lot of attention.

I don't understand what this is all about, the second post you have replied to with Cindy Sheehan.:shrug:

Example please?

:wtf:

[southern_belle]

28. It was Hillary's own negativity

and divisiveness that turned me against Hillary and for Obama. I will still vote for the Democratic nominee in November. :shrug:

[meow mix]

30. its a primary and its inevitable for many people... in all camps, to get a bit nasty.

just picking on obama supporters, out of all the candidates and primaries weve had.. is in itself a baseless and negative attack.

so now you to are guilty of perpetuating this situation. grats! =)

[Arkansas Granny]

43. I have admitted upthread that some Clinton supporters have been

guilty of the same, but this has gone beyond a bit nasty. It's been my personal observation, however, that some of the worst attacks and pile ons have been by Obama supporters and I've just wondered how a message of hope and change brings about such negative responses.

[woolldog]

31. Why I can never support Clinton:

I have two main concerns.

1. The dynastic issue of Bush-Clinton-Clinton-Bush-Bush-Clinton. I think the election of another Clinton would be damaging long-term to our democracy and set a dangerous precedent. To me this goes to the very foundation of our democracy, which is ultimately more important to me than issues like the war or the composition of the Supreme Court.

2. What I see as severe character flaws that disqualify her to be President. I'm not just talking about the scandal-ridden Clinton administration--although that might be enough--but the manner in which she's run her campaign: the Nevada caucuses, her demagoguery over the FL and MI delegates, her approach towards the Texas caucuses, the incompetence she's shown in planning/running the campaign and I could go on. Frankly I see her as the Democratic version of Richard Nixon. And again, I believe this would be damaging to the very health of our democracy.

[ClassWarrior]

33. I haven't seen a single Obama supporter who claims to hate Clinton.

But I've seen plenty of the opposite.

NGU.

[Darth_Kitten]

49. No, they just seem to hate the women in their own lives......

and Hillary is just a cheap scapegoat? :sarcasm:

[ClassWarrior]

64. What about the two brilliant women who are Obama's senior policy advisors?

Why do you hate them?

:eyes:

NGU.

[Alcibiades]

84. I've heard that too

One fellow party activist I know from the Kerry campaign told me young people don't prefer Clinton because she reminds them of their mothers. That makes little sense to me. Polling shows that young people today regard their parents more highly than has been the case in a generation, so why would this be a problem? Lots of people love their mothers, and I doubt that, given a choice between their own mother or a politician (any politician, male or female), most folks would pick their mums. It also doesn't explain Obama's female supporters. Must they hate their mothers, too, or do they hate themselves?

What I find most disagreeable is the failure of logic implicit in much of this behavior:

A. I prefer candidate XX:
B. I am logical:
therefore
C. Candidate XX is the only logical choice.
therefore
D. anyone who prefers candidate XY is illogical, and must have some pathological reason for doing so.

Much of this comes from the bloviations of the media. I think that many of the people who support one candidate over the other do so on the basis of policy differences.

[Arkansas Granny]

56. If I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't have asked the question.

[ClassWarrior]

65. I don't doubt it's happened. But it's not nearly as widespread as it is on...

...the other side.

NGU.

[MercutioATC]

34. I'm not an Obama supporter, but I am anti-Clinton...

Actually, I'm having a very hard time (again) this election. I swore I wouldn't vote for the lesser of two evils again...that I truly believed it was the entire system that needed to be changed and that the greater good would be served by voting for the person who would do that, regardless of whether they were "electable" or not. Hence, my support for Mike Gravel.

My problem is that Gravel isn't even a write-in candidate in Ohio. I can write him in, but they'll throw out my vote and it will truly make no difference...it won't even be counted for statistics. That leaves me with a choice...Obama or Clinton.

I don't want to vote for either, but I certainly don't want McCain in the White House either. As long as I don't have the option to vote for a candidate that talks about real change, I have to vote for the most electable Democrat (and I hate that).

I don't believe for a second that Obama will change the system, but he has a much better chance of beating MCain than Clinton does, IMO. Couple that with my distaste for "inside-the-beltway" politics and Clinton's massive involvement in them and my choice is clear.

With a heavy heart, I'm voting for Obama.

He may not represent what I want in a candidate, but I believe he can win in the general and he doesn't personify the D.C. insiders club the way Clinton does.

[El Supremo]

37. You'd better change that to "SOME" Obama supporters.

I'm one but I have refused to get into any of the negative discussions.

[Arkansas Granny]

44. Your point is well taken. Thank you.

[sniffa]

38. Assuming you're sincere

and I'm only talking about the part up until you showed you weren't sincere (ending at
My question is, what is it about Obama's message of hope and change that inspires you)

My moment that I truly got on board was the Boston rally. The rally itself was great, but what made me a believer were the scores of people we met while waiting in line and inside that brought me on board. They were from every walk of life, and age group; some were longtime disaffected voters, some were first time voters, some were indies, and yes, some were Republicans. What brought me on board was not that these people I mention were at the rally, but they were so involved and knowledgeable, and every one of them were actually volunteers for Obama. They were involved in the kind of civic participation that has been sorely lacking.

I had decided 3 days before the rally that I was voting for Obama and that he was my guy. After that experience with the folks I mentioned above, I truly saw what people were talking about.

And now for the first time in my life, I'm doing more than voting and posting on a message board.

As for the rest of your post, Hillary has shown herself to be someone no longer worth defending:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4850793

[Arkansas Granny]

46. Please believe me, I am sincere. I usually associate a positive

message, such as the one that Obama delivers, to evoke a positive effect on the people who listen and believe it. I don't see anything positive about many of the posts that I read from many Obama supporters. That is the basis of my question.

[sniffa]

52. Ok then

I take it that Hillary's scraping the bottom of the barrel is being matched by many of the Clinton supporters here.

[CitizenLeft]

40. I was on the fence for over a year...

...so I can honestly say I see clearly how BOTH sides have shown animosity, negativity and hatred towards the other. Your view that only one side is hostile is surprising.

I decided to vote for Obama on Tuesday about 2 weeks ago because Hillary Clinton - who I've admired and liked since she first appeared on the scene with her husband in 1991 - has dipped so deeply into the nasty politics I detest that I made the decision to vote for Obama. Up until that point, I had no preference because I don't CARE who wins the nom, as long as a Democrat is in the White House again. And if, by some miracle, Hillary pulls off the comeback of the century, I'll eagerly vote for her in November.

But please stop with the bullshit that only Obama supporters are negative. I've never seen such ugly behavior from Democrats in all my fucking life, and I'VE HAD IT.

Oh yeah... one more thing... about that "bullshit" I mentioned. What the hell do you call this?

For the rational minority on DU who want to understand crazed Obamaniacs

No doubt this meets your approval. Thought so.

[Arkansas Granny]

80. I have stated upthread that yes, both sides have posted negative

comments. I have noticed much more from Obama supporters that I have from Clinton supporters. It has been called to my attention that Obama supporters outnumber Clinton supporters by about 3 to 1. That probably has a lot to do with it. As far as the thread that you reference, I have not participated in that thread nor do I intend to.

[dansolo]

41. Because of Hillary's snide attitude towards hope

I've always felt that more people need to be involved in the process. The first step is to get them to pay attention. That is what Obama is doing--he is getting large numbers of people to pay attention. But all Hillary wants to do is crap on them, treating them like johnny-come-lately's who don't really know about the issues. They act as if the decision making (i.e. selecting of the office holders) should be limited to a select few people. It is a very arrogant, and frankly anti-democratic view to have.

Increasing voter turnout is better for Democrats, up and down the ticket, from the president down to local office holders. Calling new voters "cultists" is insulting, and counter-productive if we would like a super-majority in order to avoid having to make concessions to Republicans. We want them voting for us, not continuing to stay home on election day.

[OnionPatch]

73. If there's anything that stirs up feelings

of animosity in me toward Hillary, it's when she and her supporters criticize and belittle the newcomers that Obama has attracted and make fun of their hope and inspiration. I thought this is what we in the Democratic party had hoped for---someone to bring over those middle-ground people and inspire those who haven't been voting to get involved. :shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. I'd like to ask several Hillary supporters the same thing

[JerseygirlCT]

45. Well, not all of us who support Obama are expressing

animosity or hatred toward Sen. Clinton.

I just don't much like the way she's comported herself, and I don't much like her IWR vote and refusal to really apologize for it. I especially don't like the way she's going so negative in her campaigning, and the too many people working for her who have really behaved badly (including her husband pre-SC).

I will support her over the GOP in the fall should she manage to eek out a win. But Obama's character have impressed me far more than has hers. (I began as a Biden supporter, for the record.)

[Arkansas Granny]

47. This is true and I have edited my OP to reflect that.

And for the record, I started out as an Edwards supporter.

[JerseygirlCT]

58. And when this is done, we need to be able to come back together

and support our nominee. Because the one thing I do know is I'm not now, nor have I ever been, a McCain supporter.

[Arkansas Granny]

60. That has to happen if we are going to win in November.

[jmg257]

50. It has to do with negative campaigns. When the #2 must throw everything & anything in hope it

sticks, it puts the other side, Obama's in this case, on the defensive. There will always be/feel a need to strike back.


Sad, but that is the result of such desperate campaigning - the other side will have to fight too.

[Faygo Kid]

51. "I take him at his word"

Hillary won't reject hate and lies outright.

There you are. OK?

[Arkansas Granny]

59. And it was one of those threads that prompted my original question.

FWIW, when I take someone at their word, I mean that I believe what he/she has said. I have never considered that phrase to mean that you think someone is lying about something.

[Yael]

66. She left a door open that he may not have told everyone the truth

Thats the problem. The RW smear isn't that he is a muslim, it is that he is a closet muslim (Manchurian Muslim) out to turn the USA into a caliphate (Muslim Sharia state) once he is inside.

My own mother keeps getting these emails and I am having a VERY hard time convincing her otherwise.

I expect this from the right -- but not from within my own party.

[Alcibiades]

86. Then you don't think about language as carefully the Clintons do

The Senator's husband once answered a question, on the record, by saying "It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

Witness the distinction between "reject" and "denounce." Had Sen. Clinton meant to discontinue the Muslim smear, she'd have not merely rejected it, but denounced it. Instead, she said that she took Obama's word for it, which means that Obama's not a Muslim, unless he's a liar. Which is something she'd like you to mull over.

[Armstead]

61. I've always had animosity towards Hillary Clinton

On a fundamental policy level, I believe the Clintons were really bad for the Democratic Party, pulling it much too far to the right, and alienating liberals and progressives.

[Lisa0825]

83. BINGO!

:think:

[sendero]

62. I don't care about Obama's message of hope and change..

.. it's a bunch of hooey. But what is not hooey is HRC's neocon-lite record. She's really only a smidge better than Bush on the issues I care about (the war, the war, and the war) and McCain will KILL her because their positions are almost identical.

This could have easily been her election, all she had to do was line up against this war by say, 2005 when it was obvious to all but the brain dead what a huge mistake it was.

But she didn't. She's only recently started talking about pulling out, and it looks a lot like a half-hearted flip flop.

I know that some, maybe most, are voting FOR Mr. Obama. I'm voting AGAINST HRC, I'm tired of the Clinton shit.

[Yael]

63. Hi Arkansas Granny,

It isn't anything in BHO's message that brings my blood pressure up against HRC. It was her negative attacks starting just before Wisconsin, the sniping, the mocking, the "Shame on you" and now the Manchurian Muslim meme that brings out my bad side. It was the lawsuits in Nevada, the robocalls against John in South Carolina and the race bating.

I went from reluctantly agreeing to support her and definitely voting for her in the GE to wanting with all my soul that she flames out in spectacular fashion and soon before she turns my state (PA) into the next scorched earth destination.

[kwenu]

67. I will support the nominee even if it isn't OBAMA.

but if you think this is what animosity toward Hillary is you ain't seen nothing until the Re-pubics get started.

[Arkansas Granny]

75. Believe me when I say that I have seen the RW animosity toward

Hillary. They have been after her for years.

I don't think Obama's supporters are ready for what will hit him if he secures the nomination. They haven't even begun the smear campaign on him yet. If there is any dirt out there they will find it, distort it, magnify it and shout it from the rooftops. If there isn't any dirt to dig up, they will just make shit up and do the same. It's going to get rough.

[femrap]

68. K and R

Great Post. Yes, why all the animosity? It is as if BO is God and he can't be critisized or called on a policy stance. He is about reproach....and if one does ask a question of BO, then you are the DEVIL'S ADVOCATE!!!

It's just like in those Evangelical churches...no questions, you must obey.

[OnionPatch]

69. You're more sensitive to it when it's your candidate.

I've seen some pretty nasty stuff coming from both sides the last few weeks. Plenty has come from Hillary supporters, as well. There are those on both sides here that I feel have gone over the top. I'll personally be glad when this is over and we're fighting the GOP instead of each other.

[mahina]

71. Sorry Granny, I have no animosity, negativity or hatred,

upon which to reflect.

Never have. And of course will support Hill should she be our nominee, though I probably won't work much, I always say that and end up in overdrive at the end anyhow.

Aloha.

[Catherine Vincent]

72. They won't be able to answer you.

Because they don't know why they behave the way they do. And they will claim they are sweet and nice which we all know is bullshit.

[woolldog]

74. Actually I answered on this thread.

But maybe you missed it...

[zulchzulu]

76. For many, it's a matter of defending Obama against Clinton's barrage of lies & negative campaigning

People inherently get mad when a candidate's record or words are twisted into lies about the candidate. People are not going to just sit back and not answer back with facts, links and opinon that defends the candidate.

Perhaps you haven't been paying attention to how the Clinton campaign and surrogates have been displaying unprecedented negative attacks on Obama. I could list a LOT of them if you're indeed interested.

We can just start with how they had the absolutely jaw-dropping attack on Obama's kindergarten paper when he wrote that he wanted to be president. That would be enough for anyone with a level conscience to NOT support the Clinton Machine.

There is much, much more, but that has been noted by many political historians as the absolute first time a candidate attacked their opponent's kindergarten "record".

[Lisa0825]

77. I have had extreme dislike for Hillary since before I decided to support Obama.

It began as disdain for the idea of her inevitability, and smugness that seemed to emanate from her... things like "It will be all over by Feb 5."

I think she is divisive, not because she is a woman, and not because of Bill, but because she is just not a very likable person to me. I also feel like she fucked us out of health care reform way back when because she tried to steamroll it through instead of finessing it.

Then there was her vote for the war. I don't even think she believed in her own vote. I believe it was pre-planning to look strong when she would run for President. That makes the vote even worse to me.... she didn't get "fooled." Her ambition caused her to support a cause that would result in so many innocent deaths. yes, I have denied it, but I guess you can say I do hate her.... for that.

This campaign seems to be a reincarnation of that heath care "reform" tactic.... she thought she could steamroll her nomination through until she found out she had a more than worthy opponent.

Her campaign tactics have solidified my opinion of her, both in negativity and ultimately incompetence.

For the record, I held out hope for Gore through January, then supported Edwards, and finally Obama. My feelings for Hillary have been been consistent throughout, if only intensifying just a bit after more snark and vitriol from her side.

[quakerboy]

78. I miss the old days

When it was all about Star Trek Vs Star Wars, and we hated each other. Its so silly, cause we all know Babylon 5 was better, but the media drove it off.

[WestHoustonDem]

79. Have you been to Obama's website? It's more than hope, he's right

on the issues too.

I just came from a precinct captain meeting for Obama. While Hillary's campaign is telling her folks to try to take over the precinct convention any way they can, the Obama campaign is telling us to make sure the rules are applied fairly. That sums up the difference to me.

[Lisa0825]

81. Exactly.

Before I got knocked out of the game by the flu, I had been to three meetings for Precinct Captains for Obama. There was one person who was a bit too enthusiastic and said something like, "Well, if I call someone and they say they're for Hillary, I just won't tell them about the caucus!" At that point, the Obama staffers said absolutely NOT. We are in favor of free and open information to all. We want everyone to vote, and all votes to be counted."

Far cry from the Hillary campaign, eh?

[berni_mccoy]

82. Here's a Serious Answer for you then: Why all the hate for Bush on this board?

It's because they have played every nasty trick in the book to get what they want. It's because they have used racism, bigotry and fear mongering to get what they want. It's because they took us to war. And they demonized Democrats and Liberals the entire time doing so. Clinton is using the same approach. This is where the animosity is coming from.

[tigervalentine]

85. The nasty disposition HRC has often publicly demonstrated

is what made (makes) me support Obama. There isn't that much policy difference between them, but I have to actually LIKE someone to vote for him/her. She switches so easily from mean to charming to sweet and back again that I just don't trust that she is sincere about anything. I e-mailed her campaign about a month ago to tell them she has lost my support.

I shudder to think that she might be the nominee. She could absolutely never bring this nation together--she's much too hated by the Republican right. I think Obama CAN bring us together--and I look forward to that happening.

[Alcibiades]

87. Some Democrats never particularly liked the Clintons

Though many supporters of Senator Clinton now say "she cannot control her husband" or "she cannot help it that she was the First Lady," in fact the Clintons were, from day one, very adept at creating the image (if not the reality) of Hillary as some sort of co-regent. I was, at the time Bill started running for the Oval Office, from the Jackson wing of the party, by which I mean Jesse, not Scoop. Clinton brought us the "end of welfare as we know it," "free trade" and was fiscally conservative. He seemed too Republican, though I now agree with him on fiscal issues.

Clinton won in 1992 because there was no credible alternative. This was the tactic Senator Clinton has employed, but it's not true this time. Much like her husband, she has run in the primary without ever reaching out to the base of the party. She's never expressed regret for her war vote the way Edwards did, and actually voted for Kyl-Lieberman at a time when no one with any sense was buying what they were selling. Now, when she's down, she could reach out to the base of the party, but instead has decided to go negative or have surrogates suggest that women should vote for her just because she's a woman. Senator Clinton was never inevitable. This time, we have a liberal alternative.

Mainly I prefer someone else because Clinton's not liberal enough. Strangely, she has this unmerited reputation as the great liberal, and, if elected, rightwingers will harp on about the liberal Clintons and block her agenda the way they blocked her husband's. It we have a choice between someone who is a stealth liberal (Obama) and someone who is a self-proclaimed modeerate who has a reputation as a liberal, I think it's smart to pick the one who really is liberal. The eight years of the Clinton administration seem to me to be a wasted opportunity for our party. I don't hate them, I just want my party back.

[highprincipleswork]

88. Triangulation, Appeasement, Voting for the War

Triangulation, appeasement, voting for the War - these pretty much do it for me. But add to that her need to appear tough for political reasons, the consistent negative tone of her campaign, her seeming need to think it is all about her or that she is the only one who can save us from ourselves, the absolute miscalculation that one needs to appeal to a mythical center that either doesn't exist or is far more Liberal than what she believes.

She and Bill Clinton have shown me enough of this kind of politics. It led us into NAFTA and caused the Telecommunications Act of 1996 to pass, resulting in the media consolidation that has ruined our media coverage for so long. It has infected the DLC and the DNC and all Democratic organizations for too long also. Time for a distinct and honest change, driven by bottom-up politics and not this mistaken kind of top-down politics which also causes Democrats to cave all the time in Congress.

Obama, more than anything else, represents a break with Clintonian politics and Clintonian economics in general.

Any Hillary supporters agree with these? Anybody want a change?

[mattclearing]

91. Hillary has earned a lot of our animosity.

And I've made an effort to be respectful, but some of the things being said by Clinton supporters are every bit as negative and despicable, and I don't back down from that.

[saltpoint]

92. Right back atcha, Granny. You might want to begin your inquiry on

political decorum with Bill Clinton's sparkling performance in South Carolina.

Move from there to the bogus "plagiarism" charge the week of the Wisconsin primary.

Many of us have decided long ago to support the ticket.