A note to Obama Zealots about respect.

[mrbluto]

This message is for Obama Zealots only

I'll warn you reasonable Obama supporters that I'm not going to respect the delicate sensibilities of the zealots, so you might want to stop reading right now.

If you're not an Obama Zealot then none of this applies to you.

---

The reasonable people gone? Just me and the zealots? Good.

Look - I was practically in the "Anyone but Hillary" camp at the beginning of the primary season.

But reading this http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4850793&mesg_id=4850793">thread and watching so many people straining their parsing skills and yearning to take offense is nauseating.

Hillary was asked if she thought Obama was a muslim - she says "No, of course not. I take him at his word." Does that leave a bit of room for doubters? Perhaps. But the reaction and invective on the thread is way out of scale for what is essentially a very, very, very minor comment. While we're at it I'd like anyone who thinks differently to look back over all your own interactions, all your workplace conflicts, and then tell me you've never, ever, ever left a wee bit of room in any of your comments about a competitor that was similar to what Hillary may have intended.

Nah don't answer that - I'm sure none of you ever have.

So we're all on the same page when it comes to this: you're all without sin and are allowed to cast however many stones you like. I get that.

You people can keep calling her a "bitch", "evil", "worse than Nixon", "worse than Cheney", etc. because I'm sure you have no doubt about how justified you are.

But there's a practical problem with all that: charisma

Obama may have it - you guys surely don't.

You guys got a big case of anti-charisma you're all working on.

This is what really worries me about an Obama presidency - not that he's going to have a tough time, or that he's going to give the re-thug-nicans too much of a honeymoon.

No.

It's the steamroller-like, purposefully aggrieved zealots that have to peck at absolutely anything that could conceivably be twisted into a cause for offense. You guys are creeping me out like a bunch of snake-handlers. I read your posts and I hear an unflinching gleam in your eyes. (to mix metaphors a bit)

This behavior and all the "victim" tones of righteous offense you guys waft off only fulfills the caricature that Republicans have been trying to pin on the Democratic donkey since time immemorial (or at least as far back as I can recall).

Have a little class - your guy is winning.

I would say "think about preserving the chance of party unity" but I doubt any of the culprits would listen.

Do any of you see how similar your attitude is to that of the worst of the Republican's worst members?

Where unity means former skeptics or people who disagree are expected to just capitulate and denied the dignity of perhaps having sincerely disagreed?

No - it's "Any one who disagrees is stupid and slimy and evil and wrong! How can they live with themselves?"

You know who you are. You're not doing your guy, nor the party, any favors.

I see an future Obama presidency as OK, not spectacular - embattled from day one, but a welcome relief from Neocon idiocy. Then again Bill Clinton wasn't my favorite guy to begin with either - but it turned out to be not so bad.

I have the same hopes for Obama, but if the party is going to have a bunch of a**hats in it that either purposefully or inadvertently replicate a Democratic version of a media echo chamber I'll only be a visiting member of that party.

She said "Of course not.", "I take him at his word". Of course she has to parse this crap. Just like Obama does on a dozen other things you won't allow yourselves to see.

People aren't perfect. Candidates aren't perfect. Don't let your imaginary perfect be the enemy of the practical good. There's a chance that, in the future, you'll be glad Hillary is a democrat - or you'll wish you hadn't alienated her and the people who support(ed) her. Pick your battles carefully - choose them so you can win the war. The war versus the Radical Right.

There's a saying that "it's better to be lucky than be smart", well, leaving aside the question of whether Obama has the best platform, or whether you guys are right to be indignant at how Hillary answered, I'm going to offer you guys a bit of advice:

"Sometimes it's more important to be liked than be victorious."

One of the most insufferable things right after Bush was elected was how smug all the republicans I knew were. You guys are in spring training for the same league.

There are skilled people, committed people, people in the Democratic party whose help will be of great use once there's a Democratic president. They don't think Obama is the best thing since sliced bread like you all, but they'd work with him. If all the Obama people were like the ones on this board then many of those will be packing their bags and quick.

Right now is the point when you say "good riddance", right?

Really?

Are you saying "Love Obama, or leave the party"?

No?

That's what all this sound and fury says to me. It all sounds very Republican.

Keep it up and I and a lot of other people aren't gonna let the door hit us on the ass on the way out.

It's a matter of respect.

[0007]

1. Welcome to DU. I do hope your stay will be a pleasant one.

[yardwork]

89. The OP has been with DU since last June, so they're not a newbie.

There's nothing whatsoever against DU rules in the OP, either, so no reason to assume that the OP won't be with us for a long time. In my opinion.

[0007]

166. Wow! just fucking WOW!!

[pnwmom]

167. I think it's a great OP. I wish there were dozens more like it.

As someone who is officially bi-candidate, but at one point was leaning toward Obama, I am one of the many who have been completely and utterly turned off by the vitriol coming from the Obama people.

[mrbluto]

189. There shall be more posts.

But whose sacred cow shall be next?

Muhahahahahaha!

[mrbluto]

188. Why thank you.

I see your handle is "0007"...

I'm jealous - that's a nifty handle.

And....

Did you have to kill three* people to merit it?






*reference to the detail that to become a double "0" Bond had to kill two people to qualify.

[Dorian Gray]

213. I like Obama

and I have NO problem with what the OP wrote. It's his opinion. He's angry at the cultish zealotry that seems to follow Obama around. I hope Obama wins the nomination, but I see that is the case with some friends who know nothing about him but LOVE him.

[bunnies]

2. Another day another post ripping on Obama supporters.

Calling people Zealots then lecturing them on respect is just a little bit odd dont you think?

Its kinda like saying "hey asshole, be nice".

[Tatiana]

6. Yeah. That's basically the sentiment. Gee thanks, LOL! n/t

[mrbluto]

8. Why did you read it?

Since it wasn't for you.

You're not a zealot, are you?

[Tatiana]

10. Personally, these "lecture-type"/meta threads are often amusing.

That's why I read it, at least.

And it was pretty amusing.

Welcome :hi:

[bunnies]

13. Thats really not the point though is it.

If you have a problem with certain Obama supporters, take it up with them. An entire post to lecture the "zealots only" doesnt really make sense. What it does is offend people unnecessarily.

If I wrote a post entitled "Crazed Hillary Worshipers ONLY"... would you read it?

[mrbluto]

48. Nope. Not likely.

Because that's not me.

If I did read it then I'd have the sense to keep my mouth shut, or keep my response cordial when addressing other party members (whose support I might eventually desire).

But zealots can't seem to do that.

[bunnies]

56. So all the Clinton supporters who have posted in your thread....

either dont have the sense to keep their mouth shut or are really Obama zealots.

Im sure they'll be glad to know that.

[mrbluto]

59. There is an alternative.

They could be cordial and respectful when they post.

Besides I was saying what I would do.

I have no special authority here.

[gwojtowy]

157. I would read it as research. I just wish the Obama people would do me the same courteousy.

It makes a great deal of sense to lecture the zealots! If only they would listen! There are no "Crazed Hillary Worshipers" anyway.

[awoke_in_2003]

158. "There are no "Crazed Hillary Worshipers" anyway"

Really? There are crazies on both sides. My candidate is no longer in the race, but I will fully support the nominee. Can't wait until the nominee is picked, then maybe things will become sane again. Oh, and welcome to DU.

[pnwmom]

171. I'm bi-candidate, but I rarely see Hillary zealots around here.

Lots of Obama zealots however.

Same thing at the caucuses, according to my friends who went to them. Young Obama supporters were actually bullying Hillary supporters, trying to change their votes. No one changed their votes, but one young woman was brought to tears by the Obama guys interrupting and trying to tear her down when she was giving her 2 minute speech. My friend who witnessed this said she had gone to caucuses for 20 years, but never saw a spectacle like this before.

[awoke_in_2003]

223. Well that sucks.

This happened in a polling place? If so, one of the volunteers should have told the offender to STFU. Those are tactics we normally attribute to the other party.

[mrbluto]

187. Few and fewer.

According to the polls.

Seriously - I'm not a Clinton Shill.

Just nauseated by zealots and it dawned on me that if something isn't done abut that part of the phenomenon then I'd be stuck with it for at least four years.

[Dorian Gray]

215. Well...

I wouldn't go that far. There are crazed supporters on both sides.

[John Q. Citizen]

170. I'm not a zealot -; To the best of my knowledge. But I love forbidden stuff. Don't you?

I'm still an anybody but Clinton guy, and I finally get my pony!!!!

Whoo hoo!

[VolcanoJen]

21. Nailed it!

God, I wish it were Wednesday morning so these idiotic threads would just end already. :-)

[mrbluto]

32. Yeah - why discuss anything?

You just let me know what you want to hear.

Maybe that's all I'll post from now on - okay?

[VolcanoJen]

43. Ya know what?

If you want to have a conversation, don't start it with the words "A Note To Obama Zealots."

Lecturing, pithy tones are kind of a turn-off around here.

[mrbluto]

76. Not just pithy tones.

Wit and Irony too* (judging by your post)

I'm getting this chill - just like I said the wrong thing at a diner in a small southern town.

Then one of the men folk walks up and warns/threatens me.

"We don't cotton to yer smarty-pants, high falutin' comments aroun' here."

Apropos of nothing, I'd like to mention, like I've said elsewhere in this thread: zealots tend to sound alike.




*yes, I'm describing my own comments as witty and ironic. I really should leave that to others - if it's going to happen at all.

[Mimosa]

172. Puh-Leeze....

MrBluto 'witty and ironic." I think not. Try "preachy and condescending." ~Rolls Eyes~

You're basically a newbie here, as am I. God forbid I ever get up on a pulpit and tell people here how to post. Looks to me like they've got that down well.

[Political Heretic]

143. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

"pithy" can't be a "tone" :)

[niceypoo]

45. Which part of the posters statement is untrue?

I am curious if you even bothered reading it.

[bunnies]

Of course I read it.

Its just more hypocritical BS. There is a contingency of Clinton supporters that behave the exact same way but we dont see daily threads lecturing them about it, do we.

Threads like this just end up filled with nasty broad based attacks on Obama supporters in totality. And what is the point of that? Just to go around offending people for no reason? Who does that benefit?

Here we have a thread lecturing people on how to be respectful that starts of by hurling names at people. Is that respect? Is it respect when Clinton supporters call Obama supporters "cultists" "obama babies" "delusional" "obamatons" etc, etc, etc?

Of course not. And pointing the finger at one side only, as this OP has done, is not only disingenuous but clearly intended to inflame.

[mrbluto]

57. It's not my duty to argue your "side"

There's no Clinton zealots bothering me lately.

There's plenty of Obama zealots bothering me.

If Clinton zealots bother you, then complain if you see fit.

I don't call Obama supporters any names - I only offered advice to zealots.

If you're not a zealot then please pay no further attention to my post.

[bunnies]

62. You may have noticed that my post wasnt directed at you.

And no... I dont see fit to complain. Politics requires thick skin and whining really isnt my thing.

[lame54]

93. i would have recommended that thread too

:rofl: :rofl:

[rug]

98. be nice

[bunnies]

103. ....

:spank:

[democrat_nanny]

99. nuff said

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4842340&mes

[texshelters]

140. Lots of mud slinging here

Most of the slinging I have seen has been Clinton supporters accusing Obama supporters of being:

Zombies

Cultists

Stupid and clueless

Ignorant

Sexist (and yes, I know there have been some jerks out there, but don't accuse me or "Obama supporters" in general please.)

and

Just as Clinton goes on and on about how Obama doesn't mention specifics while not being specifics.

Look, Clinton voted for the war, the Patriot act, and she's tied to health care donations. There are millions of reasons to not vote for Clinton. You sexists and mysognists can shove off; you just deminish the message.

Don't hate me because I wish I could vote for Janet Napolitano, can't support Clinton and can vote for Obama.

Tex Shelters

[gwojtowy]

154. Really?

If you'd here how Hillary gets treated by Obama supporters on the Stephanie Miller show you'd put a bag over your head in shame.

[texshelters]

217. true

that's probably true, just like when I hear a racist comment from another Irishman. I don't listen to the show.

Are all the non-Clinton supporters that way though, or is it that we usually notice the hateful ones.

Tex

[pnwmom]

168. He's not ripping on ALL or even MOST Obama supporters.

But the ones who cross the line into Hillary-hate, the ones who are name-calling and act more venomous toward her than they do to John McCain, ARE zealots.

[Dorian Gray]

214. The problem

is that he's not call ALL Obama supporters zealots. Just certain posters who are willing to ride or die in arguments against the Hillary supporters.

I don't like Hillary and I DO like Obama. I didn't take offense at the OP at all.

[Liberal Dose]

221. Yeah, it's in the same vein as "Shut up you bastard I'm a nice person!!!" nt

:D

[monmouth]

3. Thank you for your concern..yawn.....n/t

[TwilightGardener]

4. Perspective: Obama once said something mildly positive about Reagan, and that resulted in 400

bashing threads by Hillary supporters. So, let's not whine about "zealots" being unfair and parsing words. Ridiculous. And maybe if the Hilary campaign didn't expend so much energy into spreading Muslim rumors, sending out surrogates to talk about madrassas, and digging up photos to send to Drudge, we might not be so overreactive to her weird lawyer-speak on the subject.

[BoneDaddy]

91. Hey now

Hillary supporters are about the most rational, functional, non-rabid, polite people in the world...shame on you.
((((((( intense sarcasm))))))))) hehe.

[texshelters]

141. Amen!!

I want to like Senator Clinton, but I feel she attacks without coming up with alternatives.

So, I don't support her.

So there, nah nah nah.

Tex

[texshelters]

142. Amen!!

I want to like Senator Clinton, but I feel she attacks without coming up with alternatives.

So, I don't support her.

So there, nah nah nah.

Tex

[NashVegas]

194. More Perspective

1. Obama fans seemed to be completely clueless as to what was upsetting to people who freaked out (like me) when he started praising Reagan.

2. 400? Bit of exaggeration?

3. The 'Hussein' posts were nasty, but Obama backers made no distinction between attacking those posters and attacking people who wrote sincere posts about why they weren't into him. You all earned huge amounts of hostility for that and you all and the Obama campaign earned huge amounts of hostility when you bashed Hillary Clinton on the basis of her gender but insisted (and continue to insist) that all and any attacks on Obama are foul.

4. Let me just re-iterate it: Obama's campaign and his supporters have earned a really big, really huge "fuck you," not because of how they've responded to low blows like "Barack Hussein Obama," but because of how they've responded to legitimate criticisms.

[DS1]

5. sorry, you lost me at the title

if you want to preach about respect, try exercising some.

[acmavm]

177. Lost you at the title? Apparently not because here you are.

[JimGinPA]

7. Luckily None Of Hillary's Supporters Have Been Obnoxious Here

But thanks for your recommendation for just the one camp to show some class.


:eyes:

[mrbluto]

23. At one point I had similar distaste for Clintonistas.

I liked Edwards.

But these people kept hammering him like internet capable zombies.

I couldn't really figure out who it was - too blurry - it could be Clinton zealots, or Obama zealots.

Now that Edwards has suspended his campaign it's easier to recognize the source.

Believe me - no one was more surprised than I to realize I was having sympathy for Clinton.

The last thing I wished for at the beginning of the primary season (considering how twisted and rigged it was getting) was a coronation that would have us see either of two families in the whitehouse for 28 years.

Now I'm ambivalent.

[MethuenProgressive]

9. k, r, and thanks

:dem:

[babylonsister]

11. I hope your ass doesn't bruise. That respect is a 2-way street.

Don't you DARE compare Obama supporters to rethugs either. You will never 'earn' that right because it's simply not true.

[NashVegas]

14. If It Talks Like a Rethug, Posts Like a Rethug

It gets called like a Rethug.

[babylonsister]

24. It's all in the perception, dear. If your head is stuck in the sand,

should you be called an ostrich? :think:

Most long-time DUers I know are Dems, whether they agree with me or not. This is just insulting, but since you're an ostrich, maybe you don't have the luxury of knowing the difference.

[NashVegas]

26. "I Know I Am, But What Are You?"

Is a marketing tactic that most people will eventually see through.

[mrbluto]

44. Not comparing Obama - comparing zealots.

Leaders may have different styles, maybe substantially different.

Zealots of all stripes sound the same to me.

BTW: I don't have to 'earn' the right to say what I think - I was created with that right.

I'm lucky I live in the United States - where that right is protected (so far).

Do you think I don't deserve that right?

Perhaps you'd like to take it away?

Case in point: you sound like any of the other zealots I've met.

They all sound the same.

Perhaps I'm mis-hearing you; you're not a zealot are you?

[mrbluto]

68. Are you saying "Love Obama, or leave the party"?

BTW - no response to whether or not I'm supposed to *earn" my right to free speech.

Just noticing.

[mattclearing]

12. Calling people zealots and lecturing on respect? Lecturing on likeability? Mirror-check time. n/t

[mrbluto]

25. You weren't supposed to read it.

Because, of course, you're not a zealot.

Hey - how did you even know to post?

[mattclearing]

28. You don't get to choose your audience.

And you shouldn't insult them with the first thing you say. It never ends well. Writing 101.

[whatchamacallit]

52. Ha, who self-identifies as a zealot?

:crazy:

[mrbluto]

206. The answer is not zero.

Seems there's a some overlap between "zealot" and "Not so Bright"

<sigh>

Unfortunately they're not totally synonymous.

If they were then it wouldn't be such a problem.

[mmonk]

15. One cannot see without both eyes open.

You might have a point if it were only one way. Also, I'm one of the reasonable ones. I don't attack unless prompted by attack. I won't start attack threads because I've had enough of that stuff already.

[mrbluto]

29. An advice thread - not an attack thread.

From where I stand it really does seem to be mainly one side.

The guy's winning.

His supporters need to lighten up.

For the good of the party.

Seriously - I've been in business situations where it's that last little twist of the knife that blows the deal.

Don't blow this deal.

That's my message to the zealots.

I'd say it to either side.

[bunnies]

38. So WHERE is your "advise thread" for the Clinton supporters?

Or is it OK with you that many of them call Obama supporters "cultists" among other things.

[mrbluto]

47. Never said it was ok.

To be honest - I don't run into nearly as many Clinton supporters that are so zealous.

Now, if you're a smart Obama zealot, this is when you say "Because there's more of us".

[bunnies]

54. "Now, if you're a smart Obama zealot,"

Are you fucking kidding me? I dont even think you know the meaning of the word "respect". You certainly havent shown any here.

[mrbluto]

64. Well?

If there are no zealots then what's the problem?

Or if there are no smart zealots then there is still no problem.

You're not a smart zealot, are you?

[ACanadianLiberal]

55. You think cult is offensive? On the contrary, I think it is the least offensive

and most civilized way to sump up the phenomena around Obama campain. It basically strikes out one key observation abuot Mr. Obama's followers: blindness. Of course, you don't like to be called a blind follower. That's understandable.

you might not be always welcome if you tell your good friend that he is smelly and suggest him to take shower, he might take that as an offense. Got it?

[bunnies]

58. Oh for Fucks Sake.

Im sick of Clinton supporters playing stupid on this issue. The word "cult" has a negative connotation and you either know it or you are completely naive. Its really that damned simple. Got it?

[mrbluto]

61. Yep. Cult is a negative word.

It has negative connotations.

You won't catch me applying that label.

[bunnies]

65. Well at least we agree on one thing.

*phew*

[ACanadianLiberal]

136. You feel it is negative, but it is still a civilized term though

I am sorry you don't believe it just like you don't smell yourself. When people inform you are smelly, you feel negative, but actually the word "smelly" is factually accurate.

[Danger Mouse]

156. Idiot.

[mmonk]

71. I don't believe I've called your thread that.

[Roland99]

182. Advice from Karl Rove, perhaps.

"very, very minor"? yeah, right. She knew exactly what she was doing. not-so-subtle ad hominem attack. She's a disgusting pig.

[Adelante]

16. Bore nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

17. What An Awesome Post. Huge K & R!!!!!!

Great job with that!

:applause:

[mohc]

18. It will not be too much longer

The "sore winners" will end their relentless assault on Clinton and her supporters soon. When will it happen? A week or so after the "sore losers" stop their assault on Obama and his supporters. There are plenty of zealots on each side, giving their respective candidate a bad name, it is not the job of the winning or losing side to be more gracious, zealots will always be zealots. Once the nominee is settled, could be as early as this Wednesday or it could be until after PA, there will be a week of all out attacks by both sides here as the moderators let people get it out of their system. And then the attacks against Obama will be suppressed. There will be no need for the Obama zealots to attack Clinton at that point, but they will, I can almost assure you. But with no counter-attacks to feed off of, the need to attack Clinton will die down. So if you really can not stand all this infighting, wait until about 2 weeks after the nominee is decided, and it should be safe to come back.

[mrbluto]

35. This is not about my comfort.

Or I wouldn't bother to post.

I'd like to influence things a tiny bit.

Obama zealots should be at least a little flattered. Why? Because I care at all.

I should be doing a paper right now, but no - I'm trying to inject just a bit (just a tiny bit) of sense into the zealots.

And, make no mistake:

There are zealots

I'm sure they make even Obama supporters queasy.

Yes, at some point posts attacking of Obama will be surpressed - but I don't think the zealots are going to make much distinction between attack and critique.

Perhaps there will even be suppression of the critique.

But I have a feeling that all this hostile behavior will not be forgotten.

And it'll bite us on the ass.

We'll all remember the tactics. We'll all remember the nastiness. It will start earlier next time.

And so will continue the race to the bottom.

We might even catch up with the radical right.

That's not the party I'll support.

[Lerkfish]

19. oh to have been a fly on the wall several months ago when clinton was THE nominee

before the primary....

oh wait, i WAS here when that happened.

and I recall an incredible LACK of respect, I recall being called "looney left" I recall that I was told anyone supporting anyone other than Clinton was voting for a republican, I recall my patriotism being called into question..

ah yes, I WAS that fly on the wall.


:)

[mrbluto]

31. You have my sympathy.

I was put-off too.

That dynamic might be a significant contributing factor to why Obama is doing so well.

The arrogance wafting off of some Clinton supporters hurt her chances.

It's too bad that some zealots are doing the same thing to Obama.

[leftofcool]

20. Nice post, MrBluto

But, I really think this is not about respect or lack thereof, nor is it about casting stones. For the most part, what you are reading is a lot of "stuff" written by barely 18 first time voters who lack legitimate debate skills. If the subject line reads" You're bashing my candidate" or something similar, go immediately to Late Breaking News. These posts should be read for mere amusement.

Left of Cool

[skooooo]

22. blahblahblah...

:boring:

[mrbluto]

36. What a friggin' genius you are.

Gawd your response just proved me all wrong.

Why aren't you running for president?

[skooooo]

67. Sorry, don't recall you becoming the courtesy czar around here...

Your lectures are boring.

[mrbluto]

70. So boring you take the time to respond.

Because that's what I do when something bores me.

I make sure to let the people know.

And then later I check to see if they've responded.

Then I call them boring again.

It's a lot of effort - but that's what one does when they're bored by something.

They interact with it and keep checking back.

Don't you agree?

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NastyRiffraff]

27. I peeked in even though I'm a Hillary supporter

Great points. Unfortunately, they're lost on those who need them.

A good part of what turned me off of Obama from the very beginning was some of his supporters. Yes, I know I shouldn't base my choice on a candidate's supporters, and that wasn't my only or main reason I don't like Obama. But it was, and is, a factor. We do make decisions on how we feel about people based on many factors, one of which is the person's friends and associates.

The zealots are only hurting their candidate in the long run, but I don't think they care. They care about getting attention by faux outrage, ultra sensitivity, and baseless attacks. In other words, they care less about Obama than they do about using his candidacy as a vehicle for their own inner bratty "terrible twos."

[Maribelle]

30. I was an Edwards supporter in the beginning, but ....

the constant ugly bashing of Hillary by Obama supporters made me take the time to research Hillary's issues to find out the truth for myself.

[mrbluto]

41. I won't go that far.

I considered it.

But decided it's not worth the time.

I'll pull the lever for what ever viable non-republican is running, because no matter what genius or saint they could run their party would still be filled with zealots controlled by power-mongers who do not mean well.

I'll keep voting Democrat - where the zealots are controlled by power-mongers who domean well (at least some of them).

Whatever effort I expend will be to fix the overall system.

[pauldg0]

144. I don't like either and won't support either......

I'm waiting to find out what Edwards will do!!

Go John Edwards....we all still love you and Elizabeth!

God Bless you Elizabeth!!

[Jersey Devil]

33. Typical Clintonian underhanded, duplicitous trick!

Just kidding, umm, as far as I know.

I support Obama but all the wailing and expressions of righteous indignation by both sides are getting so ridiculous that this place is getting more and more like a comedy club instead of a political discussion forum.

[CoffeeCat]

137. That's what I was thinking...

This is an anonymous messageboard on the Internet--where politics is discussed.

Who in the hell is anyone to tell anyone how to behave on a messageboard ??

It strikes me as very odd that anyone would even care.

Write. Post. Respond. Have fun.

There are thousands of different personalities on this board alone. Deal with it and
stop pontificating and name calling--as if your labels, perceptions and judgments are
some kind of psychological analysis from on high.

Weird.

:eyes:

[lumberjack_jeff]

85. I agree.

I am constantly trying to separate my ambivalence about Obama's acolytes from the candidate, and as yet, I've been unsuccessful.

I'm not going to get in line for the simple privilege of being part of a phenomenon.

[CyberPieHole]

34. K&R even though I'm not an Obama Zealot. n/t

[mrbluto]

49. You were peeking!

Now, now.

Zealots only!

[Seabiscuit]

60. So I don't get to peek even long enough to hit the "recommend" button?

Dayam!

[mrbluto]

74. Just be careful.

The zealots might find a way to interpret it as criticism.

[indimuse]

37. Bravo.

..:applause:

[Voice for Peace]

39. More dignity is always a good idea, on all sides. Hillary and Obama enthusiasts

are both guilty of crappy representation of the dignity of these candidates. The practice of kindness and respect, even where there is disagreement, is always a good idea. Nastiness, accusations, smears have never done anything except empower the opposition... totally counterproductive.

[lumberjack_jeff]

86. From my perspective, Hillary has supporters, Obama has disciples. n/t

[Voice for Peace]

88. OK, it's your opinion.. but that's an insulting pov to supporters of Obama and

what value is there in insulting anybody? I am not a disciple of Obama,
nor of anybody. But I am supporting his candidacy at this point.

When Hillary supporters make such statements, it makes the opposite
seem true... aw jeez, this is such an absurd waste of time. Do you
even care?

[lumberjack_jeff]

90. Yes, I do. Because there's a good chance that the disciples will determine the presidency.

McCain's supporters are going to be the public face of the Republican party.
There's a good chance that Obama's supporters will be the public face of the Democratic party.

As a Kucinich, uh Edwards, uh Clinton supporter, my overriding goal is a D win. A big D win.

[Voice for Peace]

95. Then encourage and educate, don't demean or insult.

[lumberjack_jeff]

96. Okay. Then I hereby resolve to encourage BO supporters to be less creepy. n/t

[Voice for Peace]

105. ok, and also I encourage you to widen your vision because it's just not true that all Obama

supporters are creepy, even if you see some of them that way, unless you
are wearing creep colored glasses, which is possible, in which case you
may be seeing creeps wherever you look. It's simply not fair to wear
those glasses only when looking at Obama supporters; you need to
look at everybody with the same aaaaagh why am I spending my time doing
this

[lumberjack_jeff]

107. "Creep colored glasses"

That's pretty funny. :hi:

[mrbluto]

192. Why? Because you invent good stuff!

"Creep colored glasses"

That's great! It's like a line out of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"!

Wish I thought of that!

It's a good come-back and it's a telling phrase without being un-mindfully hurtful.

Believe me - you will get use out of that phrase in the future.

Or I will. We both will! Yay!

[mrbluto]

191. Excellent! The power of humor!

You have discovered the power of comedy!

It is a blade only the way-too-serious need fear in the long run.

It can generally be used without ethical quandary - because usually all you need do is hold out the blade of humor and irony-impaired idiots tend to come running - to identify and impale themselves!

Use the comedy wisely - only to heal, when you are in great need, or escape getting a traffic ticket.

(heh. that last one almost never works, sometimes makes things worse - but you go ahead and try - let me know how it works out.)

One caution though - sometimes the only difference between comedy and horror is a matter of timing. Be careful - pay attention to your audience!

[mrbluto]

190. More than a bit too far.

Not telling you not to say that - merely not agreeing.

It's a mix on both sides. (damn that sounds annoyingly wishy-washy)

One side bothers me a lot more though.

And whether they are "more annoying" or there are just "more of the annoying" I'm not sure, but I've had more problems from Obama zealots compared to Clinton zealots.

So I decided to say something about it.

[complain jane]

40. I agree

And watching how many people get defensive and twist your words around is amusing.

You're right and the GOP-esque fanatical Obama worshipping is just as obnoxious as the Bush-worshipping by the Repugs.

I don't think DU is representative of the actual Democratic Party anymore.

Obviously your words sailed clear over their heads.

[RememberWellstone]

42. Good points

And as you can see, it unsettles the Obi kids to paint them with truth.

[stillcool]

46. Respect...

unfortunately the Clinton Campaign has lost all 'respect'. Is one who constantly has to defend against these kind of tactics a 'zealot'.

Clinton Surrogate Compares Obama Ad to Nazi March
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20080201/cm_thenation/45278988_1
Fri Feb 1, 2:23 PM ET

The Nation -- On a media conference call organized by the Hillary Clinton campaign today, Clinton surrogate Len Nichols compared an Obama health care ad to Nazis.
----------

Accusing political opponents of Nazism is an outrageous smear. Raising the specter of a Nazi march in response to a health care mailer that evokes the insurance industry is so absurd, it would be hard to take the attack seriously, were it not launched from a high profile national campaign conference call in this crucial stretch of the presidential race. And political observers know, of course, that the Clinton Campaign regularly arranges opportunities for surrogates to launch these kind of smears, which are later followed up with apologies. (See: Bob Johnson, Bill Shaheen, Bob Kerrey, and Francine Torge, to name the most recent offenders.) For his part, Nichols did not immediately return a call requesting further comment.
-------------------------
Len Nichols, Director of New America's Health Policy Program, stated, "For nearly 17 years I have worked tirelessly to reform our nation's struggling health system. Today my passion overwhelmed me. I chose an analogy that was wholly inappropriate. I am deeply sorry for any offense that my unfortunate comments may have caused. I made unfortunate comments that do not accurately reflect my bipartisan conviction, political philosophy, or most importantly, my opinions about Senator Obama and his historic campaign for the United States presidency."

Clinton adviser steps down after drug use comments
Earlier Thursday, Clinton personally apologized to rival Obama for Shaheen's remarks.
Obama accepted her apology, according to David Axelrod, the top political strategist for the Obama campaign.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/13/clinton.obama/index.html

January 6, 2008, 5:18 pm
Edwards: No Conscience in Clinton Campaign
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/edwards-no-conscience-in-clinton-campaign/
By Julie Bosman
KEENE, N.H. – John Edwards angrily took on Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton at two news conferences in a row on Sunday, saying that her campaign “doesn’t seem to have a conscience.”

COMPTON, Calif. (AP) — Hillary Rodham Clinton and her campaign tried to mend ties to black voters Thursday when a key supporter apologized to her chief rival, Barack Obama, for comments that hinted at Obama's drug use as a teenager. The candidate herself, meanwhile, praised the Rev. Martin Luther King and promised to assist with the rebirth of this troubled, largely black city.

Bob Johnson, the founder of Black Entertainment Television, apologized for comments he made at a Clinton campaign rally in South Carolina on Sunday that hinted at Obama's use of drugs as a teenager.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-01-17-johnson-apology_N.htm?csp=34

December 10, 2007
Third Clinton Volunteer Knew Of Smear E-Mail

A third volunteer for Hillary Clinton's campaign was aware of a propaganda e-mail alleging that Barack Obama is a Muslim who plans on "destroying the U.S. from the inside out."

"Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential Candidacy," the email reads. "Please forward to everyone you know. The Muslims have said they Plan on destroying the U.S. from the inside out, what better way to start than at The highest level."

Two Clinton volunteers, Linda Olson and Judy Rose, have already been asked to resign from the campaign for their roles in forwarding the e-mail. The AP reported yesterday that Olson, a volunteer coordinator in Iowa County, sent a version of the e-mail to 11 people, including Ben Young, a regional field director for Chris Dodd's campaign. Young passed it on to the AP.
http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/12/third_clinton_v.html

Hillary: Sorry for Any Offense Campaign (Bill) Has Caused
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB65wJ6Rcfs

Bill Clinton Asks for a Second Chance
By Liz Halloran
Posted February 11, 2008

The morning after his wife, Hillary, was routed in three state contests by Sen. Barack Obama in their dead-heat battle for the Democratic nomination, former President Bill Clinton made his case for her before a packed Sunday service at one of the largest black churches in Washington, D.C.
But first he offered an apology of sorts for racially tinged comments he made about Obama and his candidacy that have triggered a backlash in the black community and among many other Democrats.

Clinton invoked his "worship of a God of second chances" in pronouncing himself glad to be at the Temple of Praise, which claims nearly 15,000 members. His invocation of second chances echoed comments he made early last week at black churches in California, where he campaigned for his wife before that state's Super Tuesday primary, which she won.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/02/11/bill-clinton-asks-for-a-second-chance.html

Bill Clinton To Apologize At LA Black Churches
Once again, Bill Clinton is ready to repent.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/02/bill-clinton-to-apologize_n_84573.html
On Sunday the former president is scheduled to visit black churches in South Central Los Angeles, where he's expected to offer a mea culpa to those who "dearly loved him" when he was their president, Rep. Diane Watson (D-Calif.) says.

Watson, a member of the Congressional Black Caucus who has endorsed Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), tells us she'll usher the former president to more than half a dozen churches in her district where she says he needs to "renew his relationship" with congregants who were turned off by his racially tinged comments in the days leading up to and following the South Carolina primary. (Such as when Clinton compared Sen. Barack Obama's landslide victory to Jesse Jackson's wins in 1984 and 1988.)

http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20080112_nevada_lawsuit.pdf
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/a-feisty-bill-clinton-defends-nevada-lawsuit/
CLINTON ALLIES SUPPRESS THE VOTE IN NEVADA...
On Meet the Press on Sunday, Hillary Clinton said her campaign had nothing to do with a lawsuit--written about by Nation Editor Katrina vanden Heuvel--that threatens to prevent thousands of workers from voting in the Nevada caucus on Saturday.
Back in March, the Nevada Democratic Party agreed to set up caucus locations on the Vegas strip for low-income shift workers, many of them members of the state's influential Culinary Union, who commute long distances to work and wouldn't be able to get home in time to caucus. It was an uncontroversial idea until the Culinary Union endorsed Barack Obama and the Nevada State Education Association, whose top officials support Clinton, sued to shut down the caucus sites.
The Clinton camp played dumb until yesterday, when President Clinton came out in favor of the lawsuit.
Clinton's comments drew a heated response from D. Taylor, the head of Nevada's Culinary Union, on MSNBC's Hardball. "He is in support of disenfranchising thousands upon thousands of workers, not even just our members," Taylor said of Clinton. "The teachers union is just being used here. We understand that This is the Clinton campaign. They tried to disenfranchise students in Iowa. Now they're trying to disenfranchise people here in Nevada, who are union members and people of color and women."
Rank-and-file members of Nevada's teachers union also come out against the lawsuit filed by their leadership. "We never thought our union and Senator Clinton would put politics ahead of what's right for our students, but that's exactly what they're doing," the letter stated. "As teachers, and proud Democrats, we hope they will drop this undemocratic lawsuit and help all Nevadans caucus, no matter which candidate they support."
The lawsuit's opponents make a persuasive point. Creating obstacles to voting is what the GOP does to Democrats, not what Democrats should be doing to other Democrats.

If we had the chance to do it all again tell me, would we? Could we? Memories, may be beautiful and yet What's too painful to remember we simply choose to forget

[mrbluto]

53. The "They did it too defense"

You know something that was really annoying in 2000 with all the ballot malarky?

When ever I would pin down the local Republican at the coffee shop on all the shenanigans with the vote and the supreme court and all that - you know what he'd do?

He'd be all "Well, Kennedy stole his election."

Like that was any sort of an answer.

What a raft of crap!

Who cares? I wasn't alive! Even so - there's nothing that anyone else can do to make what you do right. What you do is of a certain ethical, moral quality. You can't change that - you can make amends, but you can't change the past. Neither can anyone else.

Perhaps you'd like to say "fight fire with fire"?

Look at the way this country is going folks - we're standing knee-deep in gasoline!

Nothing, NOTHING, Hillary does makes what Obama zealots do useful or justified.

You can be partisan, you can be passionate - fine.

Doesn't mean you have to be a zealot.

Being a zealot is never justified.

And I know'em when I see'em. (or read'em in this case.)

[stillcool]

63. No...

it is not the 'they did it TOO! It is "They Did It"..Now it may not bother you at all, that anyone chooses to discredit another human being in this manner. But, it bothers me greatly. I am not one to sit by, and watch this kind of horse shit being recycled time and time again, without voicing my disgust. I have no respect for human beings who choose to denigrate and demean another person to achieve their own narcistic goals. I do not choose inflammatory language to reply, but informative information to eradicate the blatant lies spread by 'supporters'. If that is not acceptable to some, and they choose to use the word "Zealot" ..so be it.

[mrbluto]

66. Informative Information...

Informative Information - where can I get some of that?

Is there any other type?

OK. Now I am being a bit of an a**hole.

I'm glad you don't use inflammatory language to reply.

But me? I feel like I'm dealing with a hysterical person and they need a good slap to get it together and not spaz-out.

Better that slap come from me during the primaries, rather than from McCain's camp during the general election.

Who appointed me judge, jury and slapper?

Nobody - I volunteered.

Felt like it needed to be done.

[stillcool]

78. Excuse my error...

funny thing...I err often in my use of the English Language, and that obviously should be enough to call into question anything I might say. Perhaps, instead I should have just posted the information that I found informative.
http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=274863
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/January-1993/Vote-of-Confidence/
http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/gay/lesbian/news/ARTICLE.php?AID=3931
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/03/obama200803?printable=true¤tPage=all
http://www.votesmart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=BS030017
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4940
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/16/opinion/16mikva.html?ex=1360818000&en=9417ee6115534086&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_year_of_the_organizer
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/03/AR2008010303303_pf.html
http://www.illinoistimes.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3a2984
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/07/29/us/politics/20070730_OBAMA_GRAPHIC.html

[mrbluto]

79. Look - please lighten up. Please?

I admitted I was being a jerk by mentioning that.

'come on - think about it - it's funny!

I'd chuckle at me if I said that.

I've said things just as goofy. You should see the typos in some of my posts.

The thought behind that malatrope was valid - and interesting too.

What's the difference between "Data", "Information" and "knowledge"?

Well, I heard an interesting definition of knowledge once:

"Information is any difference that makes a difference."

from The Media Lab by Stewart Brand I think.

Think about that for a bit - it's an interesting definition.

Ruminate a bit (wait more than a day) and mail me back - I think it could be an interesting exchange.

BTW: I will browse (can't promise to read it all) what you've sent.

[stillcool]

80. I'll lighten up...

when posters stop claiming that those who defend the smear campaigns originated by the Clinton Campaign are zealots who lack respect.

[mrbluto]

149. Please repeat.

I'm honestly having trouble understanding what the intent of your post was.

Do you want people to stop defending Hillary?

No irony - not a snarky comment - really not quite sure what you meant.

[Raine]

50. "Zealot"? so much for "respect"

I didn't waste time reading further. I won't bother with a lecture on respect from someone who starts out disrespecting others with name calling. :-(

[readytoblowagasket]

159. if you didn't keep reading

how do you know it's a lecture? O8)

[Yael]

51. Tomorrow can't come soon enough

[mrbluto]

77. There are many with apocalyptic wishes that agree.

With you more or less.

Perhaps not for the same reasons.

Those people happen to be zealots in my opinion.

So, why can't you wait for tomorrow?

[NorthernSpy]

69. I hate her.

I hate Hillary Clinton. I hate her narcissistic cad of a husband. I hate the arrogant weasels who run her campaign. I hate the DLC. I hate what the Clintonites did to the Democratic Party -- and what they seem willing to do to us again just to feed their own personal ambitions. I hate "triangulation". I hate the IWR vote, the "as far as I know he's not a Muslim, I'm taking him at his word", and the rest of her shit. Increasingly, I even hate Hillary's supporters. I catch myself hoping for a riot at the convention.



So yeah: I hate her. You were saying?

[mrbluto]

72. Basically I was saying....

...keep it in yer pants you durn fool!

Looks like Obama is gonna win - has a good chance.

Don't blow it for him man!

None of yer zealot friends neither.

Quit screwing up the possibility of a useful dialog.

Get outta the way of the rational people!

That's my request.

[humbled_opinion]

84. So whats next?

Will we be called the blindly lead Obama Zombies... Obambies... I love it...

Zealots....Triangulation... the definition of is....

Are you really Karl Rove signed up to play these games on this forum?

LOL:toast:

[mrbluto]

152. Man, If I was Karl Rove....

...well that's a dilemma.

If I had a conscious I'd seek counseling, join a monastery, or kill myself for what I'd done.

If I had no conscious I'd be having boat drinks in the bahamas rather than bothering to post on this site.

Who know what drives that crazy motherf*cker?

Perhaps the fact that his dad was http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hilary-rosen/karl-roves-father-and-my_b_28830.html">gay and an early member (no pun intended) of the piercing community has something to do with it.

Karl....that boy has got some issues with his dad I think.

No wonder Junior likes him.

[humbled_opinion]

181. Whats your issue?

Whats wrong with Piercings now? You sound more like a fundie the more you respond.

[mrbluto]

186. Jeeze - there's no winning with you is there?

Doesn't matter to me if somebody is gay, or has piercings. Not really my business. I know/have known plenty of people who are gay, pierced, or some combination. Don't shake that junk in my face without permission and we're all good - no big deal.

Let me spell it out: I think Karl Rove has some issues to work out.

Like any kid he rebelled against whatever ethic his parents were serving up - but then he didn't grow up and it went weird.

Look at all the energy and brainpower he puts into twisting and defiling whatever he can get his mitts on - for basically little to no money. If that guy's so smart, why ain't he rich? I mean really rich. If he could monetize all the ill will he's created he'd be a billionaire. He's like the Bill Gates of slime.

Nah - all the the damage he's done is a labor of love - twisted love.

And he found the perfect twisted family to join, with Papa Cheney, brother Bush and cousin Rice, etc. etc. Taken together they're an S&M version of the Brady Bunch - sans safewords. Unfortunately for us they think the world needs a gimp suit.

Are you really gonna argue with me on that?

[mrbluto]

193. Wait!

You were pulling my leg, weren't you?

Then I got all huffy and "back at you".

Hoisted by my own petard a bit I suppose.

[humbled_opinion]

219. LOL and you bit...

but really I have piercings not gay, more along the pain and pleasure scene, but there is nothing wrong with anyones sexual adventures regardless if its Karl Roves dad or not...

[readytoblowagasket]

148. good, go ahead and hate hillary to your dying day

but don't expect others to share your hatred of her. I don't hate her, or her narcissistic cad of a husband, nor do I agree with any of your characterizations of her. I couldn't care less about the weasels who run her campaign. I applaud Hillary's ambition, I'm over the IWR vote, I dislike but must sometimes tolerate triangulation, I can't muster any emotion over the DLC, and I have learned the hard way (by getting my heart broken) that the Democratic Party (and this country) will never be as liberal as I want it to be.

But so what? What you feel about Hillary, I feel about George W. Bush and Dick Cheney and the entire neocon mafia. Why? Because they have hurt this and other countries more than the Clintons have hurt the Democratic Party.

Meanwhile, I don't understand why you would want people to get physically hurt in a riot at the convention, for god's sake, just because you feel angry. That statement inspired me to comment because it makes me sick.

But Obama's "I am not opposed to all wars" refrain makes me sick, too. The implications of that single arrogant sentence is how I know the Party will never be as liberal as I want it to be.

[dkf]

73. Its on Drudge that Hillary takes Obama at his word that he is not a muslim.

You will be seeing the fallout on this all the way to the election.

Hillary Clinton is 2008's Ralph Nader.

Besides, you know she wants another shot in 2012. That won't happen if Obama wins, so she's going to do whatever she can to take him down. Mark my words.

[mrbluto]

75. Rings true - sadly.

...she wants another shot in 2012. That won't happen if Obama wins, so she's going to do whatever she can to take him down.

You might want to read one of my past posts: The Three Armed Baby

[Oilwellian]

83. Hmmm...so let me get this straight...

It "rings true" that Hillary is capable of sabotaging Obama's chances of winning against McCain for her own future political gain, and yet you chastise those fighting passionately for an Obama win.

Well, alrighty then. :silly:

[mrbluto]

150. Not contradictory

I can recognize the realpolitic maneuvering within the Democratic partyand have apprehensions about the zeal of some of one candidate's supporters.

It's pragmatic and principled.

On one hand you have the realpolitic:

Men (and woman) are not angels - when the power of the presidency is on the table even "nice" people can go tilt.

On the other hand you have the zeal:

Inspired people can be a great boon to an effort or cause, but without some guidance from some grayer heads they can run into disaster - and become far too cynical from that disappointment.

Read my post carefully and you'll see I'm not telling them not to be inspired, I'm asking them to be a bit more careful.

BTW: I doubt Clinton did Kerry any favors either.

[rcsl1998]

111. How Easy It Was For Drudge To Get Democrats Fighting Amongst Themselves...

...his double smears are taken hook, line & sinker so he can divide & conquer...

[dkf]

160. Oh, I'm sure he was reacting to what he saw in the dem blogosphere.

He caught it kinda late if you ask me. Way after us, and after Daily Kos, and TPM and on and on.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

81. So you're saying Hillary isn't an evil bitch who's worse than Cheney?

OK, I'll take you at your word.

[ExPatLeftist]

87. DO NOT READ THIS POST!!!!!!

Phew, now I have some time to just chat with myself...

Basically, I agreed with this OP for the most part - except for one huge difference: This is not by any means a one-sided affair. I agree that the tone here is deplorable lately. And I have seen it in disgusting amounts from both sides, if the OP has not then he/she is not looking or can no longer see it.

The tone around here is a cesspool, but the way to deal with that, IMO, is to be exemplary of what one would like to see around him. That does not include taking part in the childish name calling in order to tell people that it is childish to call names.

What the OP seems to be trying to say is that we should all get along so that we can stand together later. Through respect. I agree completely. But the very language of the post contradicts itself fatally.

But then, the OPer could not have read my opinion because I told everyone to not read this.



PS The whole "don't read this" thing is just plain silly. Human nature. I know that you are reading this right now, mrbluto. Bob help us all when people actually stop reading when told to...

[mrbluto]

195. DOH! Surprising where random, eyes closed clicking will get you.

Vivamus fermentum dolor. Morbi eleifend.

I have simply no idea what post I'm responding to - my eyes are still closed.

Lucky I'm a touch typist. and mouse-ist.

I think I'll practice my million-monkey-style typist-kata.

vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia.....

Dum dee dum.

Well I'll just offer my opinion that it sometimes takes an absurd figurative smack to get some people to listen to reason, and that though it won't work on all of the zealots then some might loosen up a bit and convince their bretheren not to be party-destroying a**hats.

La dee dum.

Oh and I'll mention that since it really does look like one particular side is going to win then that side needed talking too, especially since being all a-plague-on-both houses lets zealots think I'm only talking about the other side.

ah. there we go. all. limbered up.

Well, apropos of nothing I'll opine that whoever made the post I'm responding to and I are probably of generally the same opinion on these matters.

Hmmm. time for mouse skills - wouldn't it be an amazing coincidence if I happened to click on post messa

[DFW]

92. As a frustrated Gore supporter, I dared myself to read this

And some of the responses, HOPING they wouldn't be predictable.
Of course, too many of them were.
I posted a small thread yesterday in GD just to blow off some steam.
As I have to work from 5 AM to 8 PM tomorrow and won't see all the flak
sure to come for doing this, I'll repost it here, because I'm too tired
to compose something new, anyway:

SHEEEE-IT, man, will I be happy when all this is done with, and we have a nominee

I usually don't even bother to get involved with all the primary
bickering, as so much of it is emotional, full of anger and Schadenfreude,
pouncing on every poll that says what you don't want to hear, treating
every poll that does say what you want to hear as if it were inscribed
on stone tablets by God (confirmed by a DNA sample).

Our WORST enemy, and the country's WORST nightmare, is a Republican being
sworn in as President on January 20, 2009. It is neither Hillary Clinton nor
Barack Obama, both of whom I would give odds on beating John McCain in
November (earlier comments on polls to be repeated here). For all those
who think either would be a Bush Lite, I would repeat the words of then-
foreign minister of Germany, Joschka Fischer (Greens/B-'90) to Donald
Rumsfeld, when Rummy came visiting to try to talk Germany into joining
the Iraq invasion. At a public dinner, cameras rolling, Fischer got up,
and in passable English, told Rumsfeld straight out: if you want my
country to join you in an invasion, you have to convince me that these
weapons are there. "You have not convinced me."

The only thing that blows my mind is that some people here seem convinced.

The only weapon of mass destruction menacing us right now is the Republican
Party and its friends' hoard of cash, along with what they'll do to us if McCain
becomes president. Refusing to consider that is, in my opinion, a weapon
of mass delusion.

[blogslut]

94. I take you at your word

as far as you know

[Occam Bandage]

97. You might have had a valid point somewhere in there. But

I tuned out after the header had both "Zealot" and "respect" in it. I can only take so much hypocritical bullshit in one day, you see.

[mrbluto]

208. Hmmm. You posted at 4:45 pm.

And you have to live with yourself. 24hrs a day. My post takes about 2 minutes to read, tops.

So I can only theorize where you accumulated most of the hypocritical bullshit you "take" in a day, but I have a guess.

[mrbluto]

209. You do realize the irony of the the Kool-aide guy in your sig?

If you don't then...

well...

...then I'm flabberghasted.

If you do, and there's at least a chance since you're a guy calling himself "occam bandage", then I'd think you'd have the sense or curiosity not to tune out at the header.

[Occam Bandage]

216. No. I do not recognize Kool-Aid to have any particular memetic meaning, especially

in post-Jonestown political argument, and particularly as regards the common, unfounded, and once-DU-endemic attack that Obama supporters are cultists. I certainly did not apply an image of the Kool-Aid Man as my signature and as my avatar in ironic reference to said meme--and did not do so as part of a spontaneous effort with several other Obama supporters--in a largely-successful attempt to defuse that line of attack on this message board.

Along similar lines, I wholeheartedly proclaim my positive belief, approval, and acceptance of your apparent belief that you are bringing something new to the table in this thread, and thank you for your keen and cunning insights.

[Stop Cornyn]

100. As an Obama supporter; I find a sizable portion of the "pro-Obama" posters in GD-P disgusting, but

they didn't stop me from voting for Obama, and they won't stop me from caucusing for him tomorrow.

[Cha]

125. I love each and every one of

my fellow Obama supporters and thanks for caucusing for him tomorrow, Stop Cornyn!

[Spider Jerusalem]

101. I would suggest that you take your self-important attitude and jam it where the sun doesn't shine

preferably sideways.

And you can take your arguments for 'respect' and stick 'em there, too, while you're at it.

Apparently you've been totally blind to the psychotic vitriol coming from quite a few VERY LOUD AND PERSISTENT CLinton supporters. As have, to be brutally honest, a decided MAJORITY of Clinton supporters in this forum. I'm sick and goddamned tired of reading all this whining about 'lack of respect' and calls for civility from people who are totally unwilling to own up to the very real nastiness coming from their side. Respect is something that isn't freely given; it has to be earned. There are quite a few Clinton supporters whom I respect, because they manage to be fair and honest and refrain from personal attacks and whining. There are just as many if not more whom I find offensive, obnoxious, and painfully tiresome. And anyone who makes posts which automatically categorise ALL supporters of a specific candidate is a fool; you're talking about a collection of individuals, NOT a monolithic thing with a single mind and a single voice.

[mrbluto]

207. There are plenty of places where the sun doesn't shine.

If you can only think of one then I have good news for you!

Despite all the pain you've endured these past years there's hope.

Also there are directions other than sideways - have you investigated that?

Could be healthier for you.

[nomorewhopper]

102. TLDR

you had me at "zealot"

[Madam Mossfern]

104. LOL! Very funny OP

from a "holier than thou" viewpoint.

I'm an Obama supporter, but certainly not a "zealot". Honestly, I've tried almost every day to like Hillary. She is bright and has a good nuts and bolts knowledge about the way things work. But almost every time I feel comfortable enough to support her whole heartedly if she were to win the nomination, she pulls an outrageous trick out of her magic kitchen sink that turns my stomach. I don't know how much longer I can hold on before I become an Obama "zealot" myself.

[cornermouse]

106. Maybe we're different generations or something.

(I don't know why I've had to say this so much lately) But if I said "I take him at his word." that would mean I accept what he said and I believe him. And since I'm in the same generation Hillary is in, it is reasonable to assume that just MIGHT have been what she meant too. I don't know why people are getting so worked up over this.

[BooScout]

108. Brilliant post

:dem:

[bluerum]

109. Whinning sniveling infants. Calling them zealots elevates their status.

[Steely_Dan]

110. There's No Mystery Here...

Most of the Obama supporters are young and do not understand the meaning of diplomacy or civil discourse. It's not their fault that their passions over-ride their reason. We were all that way when we were young. You can't tell a 20 year old anything...they know it all. We were the same way. They are too close to the playground to understand the real world. They are more likely to say things without thinking...they haven't lived long enough to know fear or failure. Of course, they will deny this just like we did.

My greatest fear is that all of these young people will have their "hopes" of "change" dashed on the shore of disappointment. Just how involved will they be once reality rears its ugly head? Once the bubble pops, how many will stick around to do the dirty work of politics and government?

-P

[fightthegoodfightnow]

113. Cynicism Might Sell in Your World........ but Not Mine

Give me a break. It's FUNNY to see your avatar be a picture of Kennedy .... really !!!

You write: 'My greatest fear is that all of these young people will have their "hopes" of "change" dashed on the shore of disappointment.'

Well....... Clinton is your candidate!!!

Clinton and Bush live on FEAR.

Of course Obama is sure to disappoint us, but he has also inspired us and you can diminish the significance of that inspiration, but please do not put Kennedy as your avatar while lecturing us about ............ fear. The Kennedy family in the 60s brought out the best in our human spirit. Suggesting all young people, or even most, are incapable of civil discourse is pathetic. Obama has INSPIRED a new generation to commit to our political system at a time when we need democracy to triumph over the 'powers that be.' I lived in the 60s and know how that inspiration can change the world.

Too bad you have forgotten.

[Steely_Dan]

114. Okay...

You're smarter than I am.

-P

[fightthegoodfightnow]

116. Never Said That

You are projecting and you did not address one point I made.

Guess who is being rude now?

[Steely_Dan]

120. The tenor of your post sounded...

angry. Sometimes I find it easier just to agree. I'm not into offending anyone. If I offended you, please accept my apologies. Having said that, I would be more than happy to address your points.

-P

[fightthegoodfightnow]

123. Well Thank You

.......actually........... Obama has tempered my anger with optimism.

Quite frankly, after decades of progressive political activism, I have every reason to be cynical and I am guarded by what I see as a number of GOP supporters and personal friends embracing Obama suggesting there must be something wrong with my assessment.

Having said that, I truly believe that Obama brings out the best of our hopes and dreams. He reminds me of Kennedy in the 60s, Carter who despite his flaws never took us to war over hostages and Clinton in the early 90s. I think the criticism of his inexperience, while it may be legitimate to some degree, is no different than those Democratic Presidents prior to him many who came with far less experience.

I also believe Hillary Clinton, who I supported as recently as several months ago, really misread the political landscape, particularly in South Carolina.

Just my observations.

[Steely_Dan]

129. I agree with your assessment...

concerning Clinton. She did misread the political landscape.

I'll be back...

-P

[cornermouse]

118. Verbal judo?

[cornermouse]

115. By any chance, do you call this civil discourse?

What he said made perfect sense to me. Inspiration without anything to back it is useless. Does Obama have anything to back it other than inspirational tomes and essays? Who knows. Especially when taken in context of all the times that he voted "present".

[fightthegoodfightnow]

117. Nonsense

You write: ' Inspiration without anything to back it is useless.'

Unless of course, you are not counting votes.

[cornermouse]

122. IF he gets the nomination and wins

If he doesn't meet people's expectations and needs, all the inspiration and pretty words in the world won't make him anything other than a failure. Votes have nothing to do with what I said.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

124. Other Than Getting Elected

And that works for me.

[cornermouse]

127. So how about all those "present" votes?

They aren't what I would call an indication of a leader; certainly not one up to Kennedy caliber.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

128. Perhaps

............ but I'm more concerned about one vote from his opponent.

[Steely_Dan]

131. Let me now address some of your points...

"Well....... Clinton is your candidate!!!"

First of all, I do not support either of the remaining candidates. I do not support Clinton and I never have. I am still smarting from my candidate stepping down as a result of a poor caucus system and the media choosing our candidates for us. Try to imagine how you would feel if Obama were forced out of the race. Your passion for Mr. Obama is no less than the passion I had for Mr. Biden.

"Of course Obama is sure to disappoint us..."

I'm glad to know that you realize that Mr. Obama will disappoint. No candidate could assume that office without some disappointment...even Biden.

"Give me a break. It's FUNNY to see your avatar be a picture of Kennedy .... really !!!"

While I completely agree that RFK ran as an agent of change and appealed to the youth in our country, I also believe that we live in different time now. Back then, when the youth was dissatisfied with their government, they took to the streets. I see none of that here. There was a time when our words were followed by actions...we talked the talk and we walked the walk, as it were. Today, I see more of "talking the talk" and less walking the walk. Does this make any sense? In our day, we backed our words up with actions. Today, it is just words.

More to come...

-P

[fightthegoodfightnow]

135. Dissatisfaction

You write: 'Back then, when the youth was dissatisfied with their government'

That's were we disagree. I believe they are just as dissatisfied even if the streets are not on fire. Of course, people live in fear much more today and dissent is neither allowed or tolerated.

You write: 'Today, I see more of "talking the talk" and less walking the walk. Does this make any sense? In our day, we backed our words up with actions."

I can see that and I don't think you are off the mark too much.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

112. I Take Him at His Word

I don't take her at her word.

Is that respectful enough?

[cooolandrew]

119. Those are fair points on party loyalty. Like this loyalty...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA_jACF8fPw

[Baby Snooks]

121. What's really wrong with her comment...

"Hillary was asked if she thought Obama was a muslim - she says "No, of course not. I take him at his word.""

The implication, whether you want to accept it or not, is that there is something wrong with being a Muslim. And by implying that, she is pandering, and it doesn't matter whether she is doing so wittingly or unwittingly, to those who see all Muslims as enemies.

That's an implication you would expect to be made by a Republican. Not a Democrat. And that is all that really needs to be said about the comment and about Hillary Clinton. She does not deserve the vote of anyone who believes we are a nation of freedoms including the freedom of religion as well as the freedom from religion.

That does not make me a zealot for saying that. If anyone is a zealot, she is. For making the comment that she made. And making the implication that she made. That we are a "Christian" nation. No one else allowed.

[cornermouse]

126. She said..."I take him at his word."

That means I believe him. I'm not going to argue that he is a Muslim because I don't think he is.

You guys keep making things up when you can't find anything else. It's really getting pathetic. And no, till now I haven't been a Hillary supporter. My vote is still with the Edwards camp.

[KimberleeJean]

161. The question was asked of her

The implication, whether you want to accept it or not, is that there is something wrong with being a Muslim. And by implying that, she is pandering, and it doesn't matter whether she is doing so wittingly or unwittingly, to those who see all Muslims as enemies.


She didn't say anything of the sort, and she didn't come up with the question.

It was a ridiculous question to ask her, and I am frankly disappointed by people who condemn her when the should be condemning the media for asking such a dumb ass thing.

First of all, it is a campaign, it is not a Jamboree. It's not Hillary's job to make Obama look awesome, any more than it is his job to do the same for her. I've been saying for years he's going to have to deal with this. Is it fair? No, hell no, but no more unfair than Hillary having to deal with the fact that everyone calls her a bitch. AND a cunt. And a closeted Lesbian.

What she does not have is an obligation to hand the election to Obama. If he does an interview, I expect him to also answer in a way favorable to him. And, no, I do not blame him for the questions handed him. Accordingly, I don't blame her for her questions.

Also, this is just a primer for what he will have to face, if he gets the nod. I would suggest that something more than freaking out and indignation are in order.

[mrbluto]

198. I simply have to agree with that bit.

That under typical circumstances that the "No, Of course not." would signify prejudice against whatever the label was.

But please, at my request, do me a favor?

Cut her some slack on this one - willya?

There's plenty of other things to pick up on and whack Clinton over the head with. Things that would be useful to discuss.

The reporter asking the question probably spends all the lib-long day thinking up gotcha "are you at all sorry that you stomp puppies?" sort of questions to keep his job in the corporate run main stream media.

Clinton and Obama are at the center of a grueling media spectacle. Unlike John McCain.

Why?

'cause they want us divided.

Don't give them what they want.

That's why Edwards was my favorite. <sniff> They really didn't want him. <snarf> and now he's out of the race...suspended!

[laugle]

130. I wouldn't worry too much, you've got 55 recommendations!!

Obviously, many share your view!! In the end, unifying the party will be a very tall order!!

[apocalypsehow]

132. Another day, another useless "concern" post. *Yawn*

n/t.

[understandinglife]

133. Gotta love that ignore feature .... and a parting reminder - YES.WE.WILL.

[russian33]

134. a huge K&R

thank you!!

[emilyg]

138. Excellent OP.

[krkaufman]

139. "It all sounds very Republican."

And that's the point I think many saw in Hillary's '60 Minutes' comments, as well. She felt the need to qualify both her statements with... "as far as I know" and "I take him on the basis of what he says", the same obfuscation we hear from Right Wing Republican shills.

And the reaction is likely also due to the qualifying statements not being isolated comments. Clinton surrogates have repeatedly parroted the Right Wing's practice of slipping-in Obama's middle name, oh-so-uncasually, into campaign events and media interviews, and Clinton Iowa staff members participated in propagating the Obama muslim smear email.

The Clinton campaign has been going exceedingly negative in the last few weeks, and, as we have seen, it is not beyond them to draw upon every weapon in their arsenal to alter the vote margins.

[yellerpup]

145. I have always respected Senator Clinton

Until today. Please refer to this clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou4JnWQsxKw

This is so nasty it is unforgivable.

[bridgit]

146. Cool post, and I say thanks for it...

:toast:

[Johnny__Motown]

147. Respect is earned... deal with it

[gwojtowy]

151. Great rant!

"People aren't perfect. Candidates aren't perfect. Don't let your imaginary perfect be the enemy of the practical good."

I love that line. It is so true! May I quote you as part of my personal signature on Kos?

Bill Maher would be proud!

[mrbluto]

199. It's kinda stolen, but go ahead.

I found it, I forget where, and then I put these neat hubcaps and pinstriping on it.

Yep I swapped out the "the" for an 500cc "your imaginary" and then wedged in a non-stock "practical".

You think it's sweet?

Well thank you - and I think it's gonna get great mileage!

Maybe not in the traffic on this board, but in the long run.....

*** transmission of beating metaphor to death ends here ***

[readytoblowagasket]

153. great post

it needed to be said. But I doubt it'll change the candidate = supporter identification in some people's minds.

The surreal animosity between the Clinton and Obama camps makes me feel like I'm caught in one long, unbearable Jerry Springer Show.

[Danger Mouse]

155. If you want to get respect, you gotta earn it.

Insulting and inflammatory posts aren't going to get you much respect.

[mrbluto]

204. Lacking a sense of irony...

...isn't gonna get you....

...isn't gonna get you....

...isn't gonna get you....something you like!

Yeah! So there!

<beams in triumph>

[Danger Mouse]

222. Yeah, that's very cute and funny.

I know some of my posts are inflammatory.
I'm talking about YOU, chuckles.

[ACanadianLiberal]

211. You easily earned your respect in the post #156

Repeat it to yourself, young fellow.

[Divine Discontent]

162. I didn't read the body, but I read the subject and I couldn't agree more

that there are hateful supporters of him that downright offend me at every turn. They have been noticeable from the Iowa caucus period. I read that some of his young supporters were shouting down and instigating heavy arguments with anyone who supported someone else, and the level of hatred directed to Edwards while he was in, and continually at Clinton as being a lesbian, bitch, etc (we've heard it all) is downright disgusting and reminds me of the LOVE-FEST that GOP people have for Reagan, Bush and Jr. They are fascists types and really make the good Obama supporters look incredibly bad.

I already believe the good Obama backers are constantly shutting up these types on here lately, which is good. They are an affront to dignity. And, obviously, they got the playbook from the GOP.

[mrbluto]

200. 'comeon - read the body! Be a MAN! Read the Body!

I dare you to read the body of my post!

[Divine Discontent]

210. LOL OK OK..... n/t

[mrbluto]

205. ...unless you're a woman. Then...

...be a woman.

...unless you're transgendered, then...

...then...

Jeeze - I'm gonna have to read up on that.

[Up2Late]

163. Obama is SO Over, they just don't see it yet.

I guess I should add, to all the Obama Fanatics,

GROW UP!

See you in 8 years, that should be the perfect time for an Obama Presidency!

[DesEtoiles]

164. Hillary has earned exactly what she is getting in the way of negative comments.

[Maddy McCall]

165. Thus, the OP applies to you.

Because your hatred of Hillary Clinton is nothing short of irrational.

[Major Hogwash]

176. No kidding. Hillary is touting McCain's experience now!!

Her endorsement of McCain will be met with the same "SHE'S A DEMOCRAT! STOP BASHING HER!" that Lieberman's endorsement of Bush was met with - total acquiesence.

[pnwmom]

169. They just don't get it, mrbluto. You started out in the anyone-but-Hillary

camp, so you should be their ally, but their righteousness repels you.

It does me, too. I went from leaning toward Obama to just wanting this to be over with. He has his flaws. She has her flaws. But either will be a thousand times better than the Narcissist-in-Chief we have now.

[Eurobabe]

173. Get off my screen, which reincarnated asswipe are you?

C'ya!

[mrbluto]

201. Jeeze - I only know of one guy reputed to be reincarnated.

His followers (NOT zealots of course) might not like you calling him an asswipe.

Obama has not been reincarnated yet (that I know of) so you know who I'm talking about.

[happygoluckytoyou]

174. WOOHOOHOO...LOOKS LIKE OUR WORK HERE IS DONE

so good to see the democrats dividing over their candidates... right mister mccain


silly rabbits... the gop media has you sniping at each other... check out most of the clips and you will find that .... big deal... people who want to be president try to damage their competition

'scuse me while i alert the press ! ! !

THE FACTS... the democrats had 9 candidates--- any one of which is better than any of the 6 repugs

BUT even with the big DEM push this year... and the GOP do-nothing congress... and the terrible job DUBYA has done.......and MCCAIN singing his bombbombbombiran song... THE DEMOCRATS ARE DOING THEIR BEST TO IMPLODE


---------i hope whoever LOSES the primary will take any remaining funds and direct them toward their followers... to post ads of apology and support to the winner...

sadly... two great candidates are being advised into this mess...

I HOPE THE TRUE LEADER BETWEEN THEM RISES ABOVE THIS MESS

[ClintonTyree]

175. It's getting so....

I can take DU only in small doses of late. I'm a long time DUer and the level of rhetoric here is appalling. Sure, there were squabbles in '04, but NOTHING like the level of vitriol that "graces" the pages of DU lately.

I'm a middle of the road Democrat, but DU has gone around the bend to become the FR of Democratic politics, seemingly leaving people like me behind. The tactics and hate I see at DU were once the exclusive provenance of FR, but it's all too apparent that some people here have adopted those unseemly "qualities" and appear to be reveling in them. And yes, it seems that most of the people who have taken up this dubious mantle are Mr. Obama's supporters.

I visit DU less and less each week. I used to love coming here to find out the REAL news and exchange ideas, but it seems like the only things exchanged here lately are insults and lies.

When I started to see all of the "I will not vote for Hillary if she's nominated" threads from the Obama "supporters" that was the last straw. I don't see many "Democrats" in the "underground" lately. I see a group of worshipers who've become enthralled with one charismatic individual and I doubt it matters to them whether he's a Democrat or not: they'd follow him to the gates of hell no matter what his political leanings were. Democrats? I'm not all that sure some people know what that means anymore.

Whatever....I'll probably just fade away like so many other long-time DUers have and leave the place to the relative newbies and a smattering of the "old guard" who've jumped aboard the bandwagon. DU has left me behind and become the very thing we used to rail against. It's a shame, it really is.

[pjt7]

178. Today is the big day

& will tell where things are really going.

Overall, I believe Democrats need to show a little more emotional maturity. This country needs it!

[BayjanDem]

179. LOL

Those of us that support Obama might be zealots, kooks, disrespectful etc...But there's one area where the Clinton supporters have us beat: whining. You all have that ON LOCK. Whaaaaaaa!! And your defensive just like your candidate. Y'all wouldn't be if Hillary had won 13 primaries in a row. Quit your bitching already.

[mrbluto]

196. Psych! I'm noooooot A Hillary Supporter.

Doesn't that mess with your thesis a wee bit?

Check around, look at my other posts.

(with a unearned bit of swagger): "My reputation precedes me."

[mrbluto]

203. You are giving Hendrix a bad name.

Take his picture off your profile!

Right now! Right this instant!

Anyone who could play the national anthem like him wouldn't post like a twit!

This instant I say!

[Perry Logan]

180. It's telling that even Obama people know that a lot of Obama people are assholes.

[shenmue]

183. Thank you. Whew.

Finally somebody makes some sense.

[Enthusiast]

185. Zealot?

I was certainly never a zealot from the start. I was an Edwards supporter. It was the very words of Hillary that has made me a zealot, an Anti - Hillary zealot, not a Pro - Obama zealot.

[dollydew]

184. Look at some of the replies to your post

You're saying what I've tried to say in several comments. Doesn't do any good. I've tried the "nobody's perfect" truism time and again. All of us who wish for unity and victory in November see that vilifying Hillary is not the answer.

She is not the cause of all the problems of the Democratic party. Neither is Obama.

I've warned of a possible backlash if Hillary supporters are told time and again that their votes and help is not needed. It sounds far too much like the lock-step philosophy of the Republican right.

The fact is that Obama can't win in the fall with his voters alone. If disaffected Hillary supporters stay home or vote for Nader we're all going to pay for it.

I've come to one conclusion. IMHO, if we lose in November, Hillary will become the new Nader. I hope she's prepared.

[amb123]

197. Unless you denounce the Hillary Zealots, who are just as bad ...

... you have no right to denounce anybody.

[mrbluto]

202. I need no permission.

I was created with the unalienable right to free speech.

Perhaps you would like to prevent me from exercising that right?

[KoKo]

212. K&R.

[crimsonblue]

218. hypocrisy

Look it up in the dictionary

[proud2BlibKansan]

220. So you start out with name calling and then demand respect????

:rofl: