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Holy Moly.....Excerpts from the Canadian memo:

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BooScout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 07:10 PM
Original message
Holy Moly.....Excerpts from the Canadian memo:
http://communities.canada.com/shareit/blogs/theelephant/archive/2008/03/03/obama-s-economic-adviser-on-nafta-excerpts-from-the-canadian-memo.aspx

<snip>

“Noting anxiety among many U.S. domestic audiences about the U.S. economic outlook, Goolsbee candidly acknowledged the protectionist sentiment that has emerged, particularly in the Midwest, during the primary campaign ... (he) cautioned that this messaging should not be taken out of context and should be viewed as more about political positioning than a clear articulation of policy plans. He also suggested that of the Democratic candidates, Obama has been the least protectionist.”



“He again cautioned that much of the current conversation in the US about the negative impact of free trade is not aimed at Canada. He said the ‘blood bath’ is over expanding free trade to countries like Peru and Korea.”





“He was frank in saying that the primary campaign has been necessarily domestically focused, particularly in the Midwest, and that much of the campaign rhetoric that may be perceived to be protectionist is more reflective of the political maneuvering than policy. On NAFTA, Goolsbee suggested that Obama is less about fundamentally changing the agreement and more in favour of strengthening/clarifying language on labour mobility and environment and trying to establish these as more ‘core’ principles of the agreement.”

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________


I'm thinking Obama is taking a page from the Reagan playbook in contacting foreign governments before he has won an election. Anyone remember Reagan meddling in iran and delaying the realease of the hostages?
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. It flabbergasted me too.
But the level of denial from Obama folk on DU is truly breathtaking. :wow:
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Neither of them is going to repeal NAFTA
This whole argument is rather ludicrous from that end. NAFTA is here to stay in one form or another. Both are bullshitting labor unions.

On the whole I actually agree with this: “On NAFTA, Goolsbee suggested that Obama is less about fundamentally changing the agreement and more in favour of strengthening/clarifying language on labour mobility and environment and trying to establish these as more ‘core’ principles of the agreement.”

That's always been the real issue with NAFTA - balancing the labor rules and environmental standards on all sides of the border.


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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. yes, neither one will do it - it's a dog/cat fight, that's it
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Much ado about very little. Obama will seek to strengthen labor and environmental provisions.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Yeah, the excerpt in that article expresses my impression ...
... that Obama has been stressing the absence of enforceable environmental and labor standards in NAFTA and other free trade agreements, and that adding such requirements would have less effect on US-Canada trade than it will on US trade with developing countries, including Mexico.
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Yossariant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. ROTFLMAO!
:rofl:

"Putting aside campaign rhetoric, when actually given an opportunity to protect workers from unfair trade agreements, Obama cast the deciding vote against an amendment to a September 2005 Commerce Appropriations Bill, proposed by North Dakota Senator Byron Dorgan, that would have prohibited US trade negotiators from weakening US laws that provide safeguards from unfair foreign trade practices. The bill would have been a vital tool to combat the outsourcing of jobs to foreign workers and would have ended a common corporate practice known as "pole-vaulting" over regulations, which allows companies doing foreign business to avoid 'right to organize,' 'minimum wage,' and other worker protections."
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Beausoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Dude, you need to seriously take a break from DU. Trust me on this.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I Hear His Dad Is Going To Put Him On Time Out For Spending Too Much Time On His Computer
~
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BooScout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I think he got sent to bed without his supper.
Edited on Mon Mar-03-08 07:57 PM by BooScout
:evilgrin:
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hollowdweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. Remember when Bill and Hillary sent Gore to pimp for NAFTA by debating Perot on National TV?


I do.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Remember when the Seinfeld gang was waiting in line at that Chinese restaurant?
That was awesome.
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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
11. The "memo" is really more like notes on a cocktail napkin.
On the surface, it did sound bad. I found this Reuters summary, which kind of glosses over a few inconvenient details in the rush to conclude "Canada says didn't misrepresent Obama over NAFTA"

"...Key Obama economic advisor Austan Goolsbee discussed his candidate's policies with the Canadian consulate in Chicago, which wrote a report suggesting Obama's words on NAFTA were designed for a political audience and shouldn't be taken too seriously.

The report was leaked to the U.S. media, prompting some Democrats to accuse Canada's right-leaning Conservative government of trying to interfere in the election -- a charge dismissed by Prime Minister Stephen Harper..."


This is the source link:

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN0338038720080303

What Reuters failed to mention was that this was just two guys out for a stroll at the University of Chicago. You have to wonder, too, if Goolsbee wasn't just leery about having too much read into his statements, in the first place. He may not have been in a position to be making "clear articulation of policy plans."

It was two guys walking across campus having a conversation that both may have remembered differently. The Canadians were the ones who initiated the discussion -- they contacted the Obama campaign, not the other way around.

From CNN:

"...The AP obtained a memo from a Canadian diplomat saying an Obama adviser had told Canada's government the candidate's criticism of NAFTA was "more about political positioning than a clear articulation of policy plans."

But Austan Goolsbee, the Obama adviser, told the AP his statements were mischaracterized.

Clinton said Monday the memo should raise doubts about Obama's criticism of NAFTA, which is highly unpopular in Ohio after a large loss of manufacturing jobs there in recent years..."


link:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/03/democrats.primaries/?iref=hpmostpop

The CNN piece goes on to include a response from the campaign manager:

"...Obama campaign manager David Plouffe said Goolsbee's comments came during an informal conversation on a walking tour of the University of Chicago, where the adviser is a professor. Plouffe described the AP report as overblown and inaccurate.

"This is being reported as if somehow this is an official meeting of an Obama representative and the Canadian government," Plouffe said. "That was not the case. He was essentially doing a walking tour and was essentially having a casual conversation and the report on that conversation was not accurate."


The really ironic aspect of all of this, for me, is that on the day before the most important primary election, Hillary Clinton (let's not forget whose administration brought us NAFTA, in the first place) is cast as NAFTA's "true" opponent, at least in terms of "the latest breaking news" media narrative, and she's magically absolved from any (shared) responsibility she may have had, in originally supporting it. Or for ever having spoken out publicly, in favor of it.

Makes you proud to be a North American.

There's more, at CNN, where Goolsbee names his accuser, and denies making the statements mis-quoted in the Canadian "memo":

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/03/obama.nafta.ap/index.html?iref=werecommend

The only troubling thing is that looking at the text of both those CNN links -- one is from the 'most popular' list, the other's from the 'we recommend' list. Tomorrow both links will probably be gone. I looked around on the page, but couldn't find a permanent link to either story.

What may be remembered, tomorrow, is what I'm hearing Joe Scarborough telling Tweey, that this just goes to show you that Obama's a "politician", like the rest of them...
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
13. What say we highlight the less ambiguous statement from the article...
    "He again cautioned that much of the current conversation in the US about the negative impact of free trade is not aimed at Canada."

Is US-Canada trade the poster child for what is wrong with NAFTA? No, there are considerably fewer labor and environmental regulation differences between the US and Canada, to put it mildly, than between the US and Mexico (and other developing countries).
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
14. Thanks for posting this memo. It clarifies something for me.
I was thinking about what the Obama person might have said to the Canadians that got interpreted as "his anti-NAFTA rhetoric is just campaign talk," cuz any aide who said would be way out of line, and should be fired. You just don't SAY something like that (or you don't say it that way). And this report--if it's true--is exactly what I was thinking must have been said--that Obama is not no worried about "free trade" with Canada, because Canada has LABOR PROTECTIONS. It is a first world, progressive society. The problem with "free trade" is THIRD world countries, where the corporations go pirating around the world, looking for the cheapest, most unprotected labor markets. THAT is what hurts U.S. workers and communities. Also, if you are Canada, then you are concerned with the stability of trade, as any sensible country would be. They wanted to know: Are you going to repeal NAFTA? That would throw trade relations into turmoil, with a country that HAS labor protections.

This memo allays some doubts I had, based on PARTIAL, and highly distorted, representations of what was said, that Obama has a duplicitous position on NAFTA. I don't think he does. I don't agree with his position. I think NAFTA should be rescinded, not only because it has been a disaster--for third world peoples and for us--but because it was neither discussed, written nor voted on in a democratic manner. It was rushed into law, and was further tainted by Bill Clinton's baldfaced LIE that he would not sign it without labor and environmental protections. I voted for him based on the promise, goddammit. And it was shuckin jive. So, let me tell you, I AM attuned to shuckin jive, on this and other matters, from any politician, including Obama.

But, on the shuckin jive front, I'm afraid Hillary Clinton is the one who's full of it, on NAFTA. She fully supported it, at Davos and in other forums. Of the two, I think Obama is more likely to keep his word that he will re-write it, as it should have been written by her husband, as he promised to do, and as he didn't do! If she had held an independent position on this, when it was rammed through Congress, I could separate her from Bill. I'm a woman and a feminist, after all. I am not saying, like husband/like wife. I'm saying that I KNOW what her position was, and she fully supported it. For her to say now, that she will re-write it, is not very believable. So if I have to choose--as we all do--I'd go with Obama on this issue. I also think his supporters will be more successful at keeping him to his word, than Clinton's supporters would be.

This memo helped me understand this matter better. Thanks for posting it!

---------------------

Someone upthread said something to the effect that it was out-of-line for a presidential campaign to be contacting foreign governments. That is not true. This is ROUTINELY done, and the presidential campaign--especially one like Obama's, a successful one, that may put him in the White House--would be derelict in its duty NOT to hold discussions with foreign governments. The Reagan analogy is entirely off point and unfair. The Reaganites used this routine process in order to sabotage a sitting government of the United States--Jimmy Carter's--in his dealings with Iran, on a highly sensitive matter. And they in fact got Iran's hostage-holders to KEEP hold of their American hostages, as a CAMPAIGN tactic against Carter! What they did was TREASON! What Obama's campaign aide did was normal, acceptable and even required behavior of a presidential campaign. The only question was the Obama campaign's duplicity--which to my mind is settled by the actual content of the talks--which this memo clarifies.

And even if the memo revealed duplicity, we would have to ask, is it the campaign aide or Obama? Also, this kind of mudslinging is really rather silly. I want to say, "GROW UP, people!" Government leaders lie all the time, sometimes for good reasons, sometimes not. Bush's lies about Iraq were lethal. Would Obama's lie to the Canadians--or to us--about NAFTA, be lethal? No. He would still have to re-negotiate NAFTA. The American people are up in arms about it, and his supporters would exert strong pressure. Or not. He could just sit on it, and watch our country go down the drain. But Clinton and McCain would be much more likely to do that, than Obama--to serve the rich, and the global corporate predators who rule over us. With Obama, we will have more of a chance at a renegotiated NAFTA--EVEN IF HE, PERSONALLY, LIED ABOUT IT--which I don't think he did. It really comes down to that. What are the choices? And, really, the hypocrisy of the Clinton campaign, on this matter, is rather nauseating. I heard Mark Penn going on about it, on C-Span today. My gut feeling: revulsion.

To repeat: I don't trust Obama either, on any issue. I think we have a long, long, lo-o-o-ong way to go to get our democracy back. I like Obama's supporters, though, and his ability to inspire people. Because THAT's what we need more than anything--an activated citizenry. Presidents and politicians will go on lying forever, until we find the way to hold them accountable again. We need transparent vote counting. We need activated citizens. And at least we're getting the latter, with all these folks roused up about Obama. It's a very good sign.

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Yossariant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
15. He is no better than the liar we already have in the White House.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I find that to be the most ridiculous statement yet on DU
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