Bartcop nails it.

[1620rock]

<snip>
"The Washington press corps has been out to eviscerate the Clintons from the first day of the Clinton presidency, starting with articles calling then-thirteen-year-old Chelsea "ugly" and criticizing the new president for wearing a Swatch to his inauguration instead of a Rolex (the Swatch was a present from his daughter). And now all those who have innundated the airwaves, the newspapers, the Internet, and all other aspects of the popular culture with the vilest sexist imagery aimed at one woman that I have ever seen, all those adolescent bully-boys and their self-hating handmaidens."
<snip>
"By voting for Senator Obama, I would be siding with people who would happily turn this country, or what is left of it, over to another four or eight years of Republican misrule. I have seen this for almost fifty years. I saw the McCarthy and RFK voters walk away in 1968 and give us two terms of Richard Nixon. I saw Ted Kennedy tear the party apart in 1980 and give us two terms of Ronald Reagan. I saw Jesse Jackson and his supporters undermine Michael Dukakis in 1988 and give us Bush I. And I watched in helpless rage as Bill Clinton was mercilessly trashed for eight years by both the left and the right, laying the groundwork for eight horrendous years of Bush II. Enough, already!"
<snip>
"I know that, if Senator Obama does get the nomination, the Clintons and their supporters will work their tails off for him, because they know what is at stake. But if Senator Clinton wins, I also know what Senator Obama's supporters will do, because their candidate has told us himself, on more than one occasion. He has said that he knows Senator Clinton's supporters will work for him if he wins the nomination, and that people who vote for her in the primaries will vote for him in the general election. And he has also made it very clear that his supporters, and his voters, will not work for or vote for Senator Clinton should she win the nomination. By saying this, he has made it abundantly clear that, to him and his supporters, ending the war does not really matter, universal health care does not really matter, economic justice does not really matter, Social Security does not really matter, human rights does not really matter. All that matters is that they get their way; if they don't, they take their ball and go home, just as they and their spiritual predecessors did in 1968, in 1980, and in 1988. This is politics by tantrum, and I for one am sick of it!"

[depakid]

1. "politics by tantrum"

:rofl:

Now, if that doesn't sum up GD-P....

[krkaufman]

45. And Bartcop's commentary. Want a monumental rant of misinformation and petulance. n/t

[KoKo]

2. I dunno...I think this person makes some good points, here.. Why should we turn him off?

Shouldn't we Dems here...out in the "hinterlands" be open-minded enought to listen to all views? After all, it's only "Early March" and there's a LOOOOONG WAY TO GO..for our Dem Candidates, yet to be seen.

Why discount what this person says? Some sounds like the way "I" think...but shouldn't Dems be INCLUSIVE? It's not like we already are dealing with Post Convention...is it? :shrug:

[blm]

7. bart also IGNORES that Clintons and their loyalists UNDERMINED all Dems from 2000-2007

just so she could have an open field in 2008.


http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=13354


http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq/


http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward


And bart doesn't GIVE A SHIT that he maligns repeatedly the ONLY person who has uncovered and exposed the corruption of the Bushes, while he ADORES the Clintons who protected the Bushes more than any other Democrat ever has including Lee Hamilton. ''Bart ignores it and calls it the Clintons just keep their enemies close strategy.

BULLSHIT. Heis site often references the Bush crime family but he also attacks more than anyone else the VERY LAWMAKER (Kerry) who did the most to get accountability for those crimes that Clintons were groomed by Jackson Stephens to protect once they were set up in the WH.

Do people really believe that Clinton just wanted GHWBush to have a 'peaceful retirement' as he claims?

http://consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

[KoKo]

11. Wasn't Bart...one of our early Champions for Truth after Bush Stole Election from Gore?

:shrug: Why is he now suddenly a person to be trashed because he doesn't "go with some flow" about how Obama should be "Crowned" and the wife of the only "Two Term Elected Pres since FDR...should be 'tossed under the bus!"

I just don't get how we trash and throw out the folks who have been in the "trenches with us" for all these years because some "new thing" comes along? :shrug:

[blm]

13. Yes - but his blind spot for all things Clinton has actually led him to turn against

Robert Parry who sees the Bush-Clinton alliance as a troubling factor for Democrats and for open government.

Bart wouldn't tell the truth about Clinton being groomed by Jackson Stephens to PROTECT GHWBush from accountability no matter what. He's seen Lombardi graphs, has a cursory knowledge of IranContra, BCCI and CIA drugrunning, but REFUSES to connect the dots when it comes to Clintons' roles in those operations.

Hell - bart is probably convinced that Marc Rich was just a wealthy tax evader and not a named figure in both IranContra and BCCI.

[KoKo]

14. What does

Bart get out of this..though? That's why I don't get about folks trashing him...like he's a "traitor?"

What's in it for him to do this. Could it be he really believes what he's saying even if he knows his supporters will leave him for what he says? :shrug: That's what I'm wondering.

[blm]

15. He's not a traitor - he's just a true believer in the Clintons. He would defend Carville

in a heartbeat before he defended Gore, Kerry or Dean. It's his tunnelvision when it comes to Clintons and their loyalists. He doesn't even see how they fucked things up for Lamont to help Lieberman - THAT is his blind spot.

I like bart - but it's impossible to notice the size of his blind spot for the Clintons who did more to protect BushInc than any Democrats over the last 20 years.

[KoKo]

18. Then I would ask...

what does Bart get out of "blind loyalty" to the Clintons? I've seen the same from Conason/Lyons and Ray McGovern, former Ambassador Joe Wilson.

What are THEY all getting out of it...since they are in the MINORITY with their outspoken support for Clintons? :shrug:

Repeat: "What do they get out of supporting someone that most Dems think, "now," is a Pariah to our Party? :shrug:

That's what I just don't get.

[blm]

24. Conason wouldn't take the same step to smear other Dems though, bart does.

And in the heat of a campaign, people dig in. They have been writing comparisons of Bush and Clinton administrations for so long that THEY are glued to the differences, but you rarely read anything from those writers about all the illegal operations of GHWBush's that Bill deep-sixed throughout the 90s which actually ALLOWED the emergence of Bush2 and led directly to 9-11.

THAT is an area that none of them will go because they have a bested interest in keeping Bushes and Clintons completely separate.

Conason HAD to know that Clinton knew damn well about the CIA drugrunning, but had no choice but to protect the Pres Bush at the time. That's why he and Lyons won't even go there. Hell - who sez they haven't had their own blackmail moments. Something kept the CIA drugrunning matters out of their reporting.

[krkaufman]

47. I wouldn't call him a "traitor" ....

... but he's distorting facts, heavily, in pursuit of his agenda. Or should do past accomplishments earn truth mulligans?

[krkaufman]

46. Kudos to BC for his past positions ...

... but he is eminently full of crap on several points, especially in mischaracterizing what Obama has said in regards to how his and Hillary's supporters/voters might respond in the event the candidate is not the nominee.

[Cha]

25. bartcop had hilary wearing a pink tutu

back in the day and she's still wearin' one.

[Bucky]

3. He's right, except for the 6 1/2 years from 2001-2007 that they hyped her as the only Dem leader

Starting with Bush's charade of an inauguration, I heard nothing but "Hillary Hillary Hillary" from Russert, Matthews, Scarborough, McLaughlin, Blitzer, the Fox mob, and all their sycophants. They were sticking to the narrative for over six years, setting up the McCain-Clinton (tho I suspect they really wanted a Jeb-Clinton show down) election.

Do they hate her? Yes, and it's disgusting. But the fact is that they were yoyoing her from the gitgo, and from the start of the Bush disaster in 2000 Hillary Clinton was being foisted on the Democrats as our "only" possible nominee. It was so well synchronized I almost want to think that it's coordinated rather than the usual groupthink you get with the consolidated media.

They've always wanted Clinton as the nominee. If they started attacking her in January, it's probably only a case of premature ejaculation

[krkaufman]

48. A very relevant point interjected. Thanks. n/t

[anonymous171]

4. Person doesn't like Ted Kennedy to begin with.

[carlotta]

5. And Michelle wasn't sure she could support Clinton either

That's absolutely disgusting. They care more about themselves than their country.

[sandnsea]

6. The architect of the IWR and chief blocker of withdrawal

Anybody who was protesting in 2002 and supports Hillary today is just not thinking clearly. The right wing media was against the Clintons, not ALL the media. They have always been able to bull their way with the media, just like they're doing now with the whine about bias. This person has got it completely backwards and sides with the centrists at every turn. What an idiot.

[Auntie Bush]

34. What are you smoking? Can't you stop for a minute and come up for air?

Oxygen is good for your brain. It make it work and think clearly.
"The architect of the IWR and chief blocker of withdrawal"
She was the architect? She's blocking withdrawal? In your dreams!
Can't you tell the difference between a dream and reality?

[Guava Jelly]

8. I like Bartcop

I got my start there before I found DU.
But on this one I disagree with him.

[Bucky]

58. Amen. Bartcop is the best, even if he is backing the weaker candidate this time.

[hfojvt]

9. sorry Bartcop, but the Clintons are the ones who keep selling out the left

telecom regulation doesn't matter, progressive taxes don't matter, welfare as we know it does not matter, protecting American jobs doesn't matter, etc., etc., etc.

and Jackson campaigned very hard for Dukakis, and this Jackson-voter voted for Dukakis/Bentsen too.

[meow mix]

10. uh hello, hillary herself just endorsed mccain. hes a stupid &%^$

hillary herself and her supporters will help mccain

[sueragingroz]

12. STANDING OVATION!!!!!!

Bartcop just spoke everything that has been rattling around in my head these last couple of months!

BTW: do you have a link?

[Guava Jelly]

17. bartcop.com

It's a cool page.
I Love the people.
I haven't been over there in a long long time.

[sueragingroz]

23. i've been before too

I can't find the article though... i want to send it to a friend.

[kerstin]

16. k & r. n/t

[1620rock]

20. Link here

http://www.bartcop.com/ about halfway down the page. Subject "Why I'm switching my vote to Hillary."

[sueragingroz]

26. Thanks!!!

[kerstin]

31. Thanks! I'd been to Bartcop earlier tonight and was unable to find it. n/t

[Maribelle]

19. Hillary's Town Hall tonight discussed more issues in five minutes than the hollow Obama discussed

in a year.

[Dinger]

21. Like Someone Else Said, Word (nt)

[kerstin]

33. She was superb. n/t

[MagsDem]

35. And it's true on every stop -- nothing but empty rhetoric from him

With him, voters are buying a pig in a poke.

[Cha]

22. You mean bartcop is whining..

anyone who supports that warmongering, pink tutu wearing, clinton at this point never really gave a fuck for our country.

[mtnester]

49. So, you are taking the Republican theory that if someone does not vote for YOUR candidate

they are not a Patriot? Sure sounds that way.

Thanks.

[Nine]

27. that's actually a letter TO Bartcop

http://www.bartcop.com/ann-philly-hillary.htm

Some good points though. I assume Bartcop is in general agreement with the letter.

[undeterred]

28. he has it exactly the reverse of the truth

Clinton is the tantrum thrower.

[lmbradford]

29. absolutely...

.....when you are losing this badly to an unknown guy from Chicago you really aught not to put the "average joe" down. I drives up your negatives and even more people vote for "average joe". Geez...some good old common sense in a campaign would be good here.

[undeterred]

30. welcome to du

:hi:

[0007]

44. Good point! But idiots don't have common sense in the first place.

Welcome to DU.

[Va Lefty]

32. Several points...

"I saw McCarthy and RFK voters walk away in '68 and give us two terms of Richard Nixon."--Most of those voters came back in the final weeks. Those that didn't, well with the war and the killings of MLK and RFK, it's hard for me to condemn them for being disillusioned with politics in the good old USA.

"I saw Ted Kennedy tear the party apart in '80 and give us two terms of Ronald Reagan."--I supported Kennedy over Carter in '80 and can't really argue this point.

"I saw Jesse Jackson and his supporters undermine Michael Dukakis in '88 and give us Bush I"--What did Jackson or his supporters do to "undermine" Dukakis? Did they tell him to ride around in that tank? Did they orchestrate his lackadaisical response to the Wlllie Horton ads? Dukakis lost that election because he let Bush wrap himself in the flag and paint him as soft on crime and someone who had something against the pledge of allegiance.

[Tresalisa]

36. One question

OK, I get it that this is a letter to the site, but this I find puzzling:

"I also know what Senator Obama's supporters will do, because their candidate has told us himself, on more than one occasion. He has said that he knows Senator Clinton's supporters will work for him if he wins the nomination, and that people who vote for her in the primaries will vote for him in the general election. And he has also made it very clear that his supporters, and his voters, will not work for or vote for Senator Clinton should she win the nomination.(Emphasis mine)

Is that true? Anyone got a link for this, 'cuz I'm doubting that Obama actually said that.

[Jim Lane]

37. Clinton's own site refutes this pro-Clinton spin

I doubt that Obama has said he won't work for Clinton, so I certainly can't give you a link to this (probably nonexistent) statement.

On the question of who's more prone to tantrum-throwing, though, the Clinton campaign's own website has a link to a of a poll conducted February 20-24, 2008. The finding relevant to this thread:

A quarter of Democrats (25%) who back Clinton for the nomination say they would favor McCain in a general election test against Obama. The "defection" rate among Obama's supporters if Clinton wins the nomination is far lower; just 10% say they would vote for McCain in November, while 86% say they would back Clinton.

So the Obama supporters are more ready to back Clinton than the Clinton supporters are to back Obama.

[MagsDem]

39. I think the question is did he make that comment

And yes, he actually did. He said he didn't think his supporters would support her, but that her supporters would support him. It was his way of making the case that rethugs and indies supported him that wouldn't support her. In actuality he came off sounding to me, at least, like a totally arrogant jackass. He believe his own hype.

[MagsDem]

38. He actually did say it, though it was quite some time ago

Gist was very clear -- her supporters would support him, but the converse was improbable, ergo we should vote for him. I remember this being one of the first things I heard him say that started me on the road of thinking of him as an arrogant jackass. Now of course I have really learned to dislike him, but I remember this because it was one of the first things that gave me a bad vibe about him.

[Tresalisa]

40. Whoa, I don't like that at all. Does sound kind of arrogant.

It won't keep me from voting for him if he's the nominee, but it's certainly not the unity I like to see in our party.

[Catherina]

41. I doubt he said anything of the like

but as a former dem who went independent, I'll tell you frankly, I won't support her. Hillary Clinton and her DLC ilk are the reason I left the party. Obama, Dean and the party are bright enough to know she's poison to independents on the left. The nastier she and her supporters get, especially the hillaryis44 types, the stronger our conviction that we were absolutely right about her years ago.

The DLC pulled that same trick on Dean last election and accused him of saying the same thing. It was a total lie meant to make him look bad. Don't fall for it unless you get a direct quote with a link.

[Nine]

52. He said it. I had actually forgotten about it.

It was a while ago. I don't have a link but I hope someone else will dig it up.

[lisainmilo]

42. I will agree to DISAGREE with you and Bart!

Which ever Dem wins, I will support...I am hoping for Obama after Edwards left the race.

[Andromeda]

43. Good post!

I'm with you 100% because I watched everything happen just like you described.

Bartcop is one of the few who gets it.

[LeftCoast]

50. Good post from Bartcop.

Haven't been to his site in a long time. Going to have to check it out again.

[still_one]

51. I was planning on working my ass off for WHOEVER got the nomination until

I just saw a video with Hillary saying she and mccain are qualified to be president, while Obama is just a speech

So, I guess it will be a self-fufilled prophecy in my case

[Raffi Ella]

53. you're right 1620rock

he did indeed NAIL it.

Obama does not represent me,a life long Democrat who wants a fierce Democrat in The White House.He is nothing less than a turncoat,playing footsies with the very monsters who would absolutely annihilate US if they could.

I don't understand the love and adoration the left has for this man and I never will.

[ProSense]

54. Bartcop is an idiot! He hated Kerry too. Hillary voted to extend Bush's tax cut, and endorsed McCain

Spewing crap that runs counter to the facts doesn't make it any less crappy!

This is the asshole who gave the world Kerry, Biden and Lieberman in pink tutus. He's an ass!



Yeah, take the word of an idiot who can't see the difference between Kerry, Biden, Lieberman and Edwards!

[onenote]

55. I stopped reading at the first misrepresenation. Which was in the first line

"The Washington press corps has been out to eviscerate the Clintons from the first day of the Clinton presidency, starting with articles calling then-thirteen-year-old Chelsea "ugly" "

I'd be interested in seeing any support for that claim. In fact, the Washington press corps, appropriately imo, treated Chelsea with kid gloves during the Clinton presidency. Indeed, when McCain told his despicable joke about Chelsea's appearance, the press essentially suppressed the specifics of the joke while being pretty critical of McCain for telling it.

So, is there anything accurate in the OP? Maybe. But I'm not bothering to read it when it starts out with an untruth.

[printpolitico]

56. great point- resoundingly true

[elixir]

57. I'm lovin' this rant of clarity and honesty. Thanks, BartCop.