Hillary's Joe Lieberman moment, or, why I will not support her in November

[Pab Sungenis]

There's been a lot of discussion, I'm sure, about Hillary's comments today where she came right out and stated that she believes that John McCain is more qualified to be President than Barack Obama. I've tried to stay out of the fray and avoided most of the discussions here in GD:P, other than a cursory glance, but today Hillary has crossed the Rubicon, and so must I.

Mrs. Clinton, today you openly endorsed the Republican candidate, should you not win the nomination. That is unforgiveable.

Today, Mrs. Clinton, you abrogated your status as a leader in the Democratic Party, and made manifest your desire to divide and destroy that Party if you don't get your way.

Today, Mrs. Clinton, you joined the ranks of such Party luminaries as Strom Thurmond, Henry Wallace, George Wallace, and Ralph Nader, who put their own egos ahead of the principles that the Party stands for in a vital election year.

Today, Mrs. Clinton, you have betrayed your Party the same way your husband betrayed you on numerous occasions. The difference is, we are not as saintly or as stupid as to forgive you.

You have divided our Party, Mrs. Clinton, perhaps beyond repair. I will not work for a Party who would select someone like you as its leader. I will not be a member of a Party that has you as its standard-holder.

If my Senators, Frank Lautenberg and Robert Menendez, and my Governor, Jon Corzine, do not revoke their endorsements of you and vote against you in Denver, I swear by all that is Holy that I will work feverishly to defeat them; in their next Primary if possible, in their next General if necessary.

If my County Chair, Lou Magazzu, does not renounce his endorsement of you after this stunt you pulled today, then I will campaign to oust him as Chairman, even if I have to run against him myself.

And if you, through some mixture of chicanery, blackmail, and legal maneuvering, take the Party's nomination, then I will be saying goodbye to the Party that my family worked hard to build to dominance on our local level. As someone who worked on every campaign since Walter Mondale's quixotic bid in 1984, it will be difficult to say the least, but I will. I will find another candidate whose platform I can support, and I will actively work for your defeat in November.

Your actions have been unforgiveable. If you have any shred of decency left, if you ever had one to begin with, you will go on television after the polls have closed tomorrow night and announce your withdrawal. You do not deserve anyone's vote, and for you to continue asking for them is the height of hubris.

Goodbye, Mrs. Clinton.

[maddiejoan]

1. sheeeesh

"Mrs. Clinton, today you openly endorsed the Republican candidate, should you not win the nomination. That is unforgiveable."


she did no such thing.

[LoZoccolo]

2. Yes she did.

Try denying it before the informed DU public.

[emilyg]

79. No she didn't.

[BlueEyedSon]

136. DID TOOOOO!

[wileedog]

4. No

She just pointed out why she thought McCain wold be preferable to Obama in the White House.

That's not like, 'endorsing' or anything though.

[Pab Sungenis]

11. It certainly is.

Stating that your primary opponent is not fit to be President, but that your opposite party's nominee is, is tantamount to an endorsement.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bonnieS]

127. no, it is not what she said

It is unfortunate that she chose to say anything at all, but what she said was that when McCain throws his vast experience out at his opponent, she could match him with hers, and Obama could not, because (and this is the shortsighted part) all Obama has to offer back is one speech that he gave in 2002. This is what she is saying: she is the only one who can match McCain. What should she say--that she CAN"T match McCain???? She has been saying a variant on this the entire time she has been running. Anyway, it was a mistake to put it in these particular words because it has been so easily misunderstood. She also said again yesterday at least three times that I caught that whoever the Democratic nominee is, everyone will be unified behind him or her.

There is enough to get upset about without inflating this.

[HDPaulG]

167. With that logic....

Barbara Peirce Bush has more experience than McCain and Hillary....

[Ken Burch]

174. The fact that she's weaker in the polls proves she CAN'T match McCain.

There's never a good reason to nominate the less popular candidate. No Democratic nominee will ever come from behind to win. Only the other side does that.

[Barrymores Ghost]

145. an endorsement, bullshit...

...it's party treason. When Barack wins the White House and the Dems achieve a solid majority in the Senate and the House this November, they should kick Hillary and Joe to the fucking curb, for good. This was inexcuseable.

[maddiejoan]

20. No she didn't

where did she say that?

[tyedyeto]

32. To state what she stated was to give McCain an implied endorsement

as long as she's not the nominee.

[Carolina]

68. No, she just

stupidly handed her own ass to McCain if, by hook or crook, she becomes the nominee because he can use HER own words against HER by simply quoting her and then pointing out that:

A) he is older and logically has a longer lifetime of experience and
B) his experience is bona fide, not based on his spouse's job

What a fucking idiot. Ready on day?????????
Her kitchen sink is going to come right back at her.

[Ken Burch]

173. She deliberately gave the R's a soundbite to use in the fall

Just like Hubert Humphrey deliberately slandered McGovern on defense during the California primary campaign in '72, even though Humphrey already knew he was beaten and even though McGovern had never said anything vicious or dirty about him.

[kid a]

14. yep...she did. Watch the video. LISTEN

that sis way low.
WE have three viable candidates - these two belong - this one doesn't (point to obama)

[maddiejoan]

19. and?

She's right.

But that's not an endorsement of McCain.

[Pab Sungenis]

49. Oh? She just wrote McCain's best commercial for him.

He can end every commercial, right before the approval statement, with Hillary saying "Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience that he will bring to the White House" if Obama is the nominee.

That's scorched earth. And it's bad politics.

[Carolina]

69. no she's an idiot

because she just stupidly handed her own ass to McCain if, by hook or crook, she becomes the nominee. He can now use HER own words against HER by simply quoting her and then pointing out that:

A) he is older and logically has a longer lifetime of experience and
B) his experience is bona fide, not based on his spouse's job

What a fucking idiot. Ready on day?????????
Her kitchen sink is going to come right back at her.

[Hieronymus]

96. The hell she didn't. Anyone that understands English heard her.

[truebrit71]

129. She said he was more qualified than her Democratic opponent..

...that is an endorsement of the republican candidate...

[dogman]

Have another listen.

Clear your mind and ears first. She did not say McCain is more qualified, or did you know that and simply enjoy your own little smear campaign?

[JAbuchan08]

128. well then she may have more experience as well

but it doesn't neccessarily make her more qualified.

I'd prefer a constitutional lawyer over a corporate lawyer any day.

[TwilightGardener]

3. dupe

[TwilightGardener]

5. Well, if she's the nominee, and holds McCain in such high regard, I

will have to take a second look at McCain. He's sure got a lot of experience. And he sacrificed for his country. Her endorsement is very convincing.

[madrchsod]

28. he has more experience than she does

[TwilightGardener]

31. Way more. Naval Academy, pilot, POW, squadron commander, Congressional

liaison, Senator for 25 years, and a long time on the Armed Services and Commerce Committees--pretty impressive guy. Sure beats a long stint as First Lady, and 7 years as Senator.

[IsItJustMe]

126. My exact thoughts. Not only is she cutting Obama's throat, she is damned full of herself, she is

cutting her own throat while she is at it. It's the damndest thing I ever seen. Unbelievable.

[Pryderi]

It's a win-win for Hillary. She sets herself up to run against McCain in 2012

[Ken Burch]

177. You're assuming the party would forgive her for rodent-copulating our chances this year.

Even among HRC supporters, are there any of you who are really SO arrogant as to think that getting her later is worth destroying our chances NOW?

There won't even be a good reason to nominate a candidate if we lose this year. The party would be dead.

[Pryderi]

186. No HRC supporters answered, so I guess you know what the answer is

[Ken Burch]

178. You're assuming the party would forgive her for rodent-copulating our chances this year.

Even among HRC supporters, are there any of you who are really SO arrogant as to think that getting her later is worth destroying our chances NOW?

There won't even be a good reason to nominate a candidate if we lose this year. The party would be dead.

[kenfrequed]

155. aww hell no

Look, I don't like Clinton. I think she is Far too conservative for most of us, but I will sooner eat my own tongue than vote republican, unless of course someone can ressurect Lincoln, Eisenhower, or maybe Teddy Roosevelt.

[The_Casual_Observer]

6. A half ass Keith O wannabe rant post!

[dempartisan23]

7. rush limbaugh now controls the democratic party

hillary and rush are on the same team as joe liebermann and fox news.

[AZBlue]

8. K/R

[undeterred]

9. Shred of decency?

She will turn around and pretend to be gracious only when its utterlty clear that every shred of hope is gone. But after what she has done it can only be pretense. She utterly lacks grace and class.

[Carolina]

72. "She utterly lacks grace and class"

So true. Because of her behavior in this campaign, I have come to believe the wingnuts of the 90s may have been right all along. And to think of how I used to defend the Clintons...

[Leopolds Ghost]

109. Trouble is, the wingnuts were right -- but for the totally wrong reasons

They considered her an evil liberal. The reality is that the Clintons
felt the need to make liberalism look bad, so whenever they or their allies
did anything weak or stupid or conniving, they framed it as an episode of
momentary liberalism, to be ameliorated with a dose of good ol common sense
brought to you from the people on Clinton's "better side"... his business side.

You know, the "I know we in the media are all liberals but liberalism has clearly failed" type.

[Arugula Latte]

179. I know. I never understood that anti-Clinton loathing.

Now I have a better idea.

[bluestateguy]

10. "You have divided our Party, Mrs. Clinton, perhaps beyond repair."

And you make it worse when you refuse to support the nominee.

Goodbye to you (I put all people who refuse to support the nominee on ignore)

[dempartisan23]

15. clinton is nothing to me now

she and rush limbaugh should run together.

[ooglymoogly]

133. Even scarier if she should win, she might pick

Knesset senator Joementum as a running mate to placate the extremely powerful A!PEC, as Gore was forced to do.

[FiveGoodMen]

150. And turnabout's fair play

[JKaiser]

12. She did not... She has my vote! GO Hillary!

Obama had the least experience out of all the dem candidates... McCain would beat him easily on foreign policy..

[Carolina]

73. And now McCain will beat her with her own cheap words

because she just stupidly handed her own ass to him. If, by hook or crook, she becomes the nominee, he can use HER own words against HER. He can simply quote her and then pointout that:

A) he is older and logically has a longer lifetime of experience and
B) his experience is bona fide, not based on his spouse's job

What a fucking idiot she is. Ready on day?????????
Her kitchen sink is going to come right back at her.

[emilyg]

81. Cheers! Go Hillary.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DawgHouse]

163. True!

[JVS]

13. Huckabee/Winehouse! AWESOME

BTW it's not fair to compare Nader to HRC. He never claimed to be a Democrat.

[madrchsod]

27. huckabee/winehouse? now that would be interesting

does`t he play bass?

[Upton]

She has no shame

and will gladly destroy the party in pursuit of her goals. To think I once actually respected her.

[Tarheel_Dem]

16. ditto....

:applause: :applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

I take no pleasure in saying this, but I too find it impossible to support her in the general. I don't think there's any way to bring this party back together after her scorched earth theatrics this past weekend. So for all the Clintonites on board, good luck in the fall.

[flyarm]

17. then you should not be at democratic underground..are you one of the Obama people who for the past

two weeks who were telling all the Hillary people if they did not vote for Obama in Nov they were traitors to the dem party?????????

or that they would be responsible for the supreme court nominee being picked by Mc Cain?????????

or saying they are " with us or against us"???????????

or were you one who got on one of those threads that said basically that people have alot of nerve saying they won't vote for the democratic nominee..as long as that nominee.. i guess... is Obama?????????????

i thought so..


well i have one thing to say..

you are a hypocrite.

fly an Edwards supporter and voter.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

18. Actually, the "the height of hubris" is thinking anyone cares about your threats

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

21. This Is The Most Stupid Thing I've Read In Quite Some Time. My God.

Is there something in the kool aid that sparks episodes of heightened melodrama? Holy. Friggin. Cow. :wow:

[maddiejoan]

23. Yes there is

-- as far as I know ;)

[zabet]

33. Must be.

Obama Juice...
Better than Jesus Juice!

:beer::cry::beer::cry::beer:

:rofl:

[cbayer]

22. Go on and just give her a call.

I am sure she will do everything you ask because she would just hate to lose a supporter like you.

[Dogmudgeon]

24. Yet another stiff, bellowing philippic cribbed from a Victorian bodice-ripper

And he even used a tricolon in there -- "Today, Mrs. Clinton ..." Someone's been cavorting in the Silvia Rhetoricae again. The uneasy ghosts of Patrick Henry AND Oliver Cromwell have been haunting the dreams of the Obama supporters.

"The Rubicon, sir! Devil take the hindmost! Hast thou no kine, nor raiment, nor any myrrh? Avast! Say now, forsooth, and go likewise! Into the breech, once more!"

Good gawd, you'd think the British had just taken Philadelphia and had clapped General Washington in irons.

--p!

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

26. In another thread Hillary was described as...

In another thread Hillary was described as "cornered, like the cat in heat she is."

I thought that was channeling the worst of 1950s detective paperbacks, so least there some variation of literary influence throughout the movement.

[JVS]

29. That's a horrific image

it's bad enough that it's sexist, but then to evoke the image of Hillary in heat is truly disturbing.

[Thrill]

25. We've this before from her. When she pissed on John Kerry

[Alizaryn]

30. Anyway that you attempt to rationalize her quote, there isn't

ANYWAY that patting the Republican candidate on the back and slamming your fellow Dem can be seen as a good move. IMO ... She really blew this one and is making a fool out of herself and our party.

"I think that I have a lifetime of experience that I will bring to the White House. I know Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience to the White House. And Senator Obama has a speech he gave in 2002."

[Neecy]

34. I'm pretty pissed about it, too

I'd agree with everything you said up to the finding another candidate and working for her defeat in November. I know it would be repulsive to vote for her but she's still (marginally) better than McCain.

I can't imagine she'll win the nomination through these tactics. The key will be not letting her win the nomination in 2012 should she cause Obama to lose the general.

[rodeodance]

35. YOU are the 2nd DU in 5 min. i have seen--to stay home because of IDIOSY

[Pab Sungenis]

47. I just want to be able to vote FOR someone, not AGAINST someone else.

However, I never seem to get that chance. I'm tired of the lesser of two evils. Fortunately, today Hillary proved herself the Evil of the two Lessers.

[rodeodance]

94. TAKE a few days off and start thinking rationally instead of listening to idiots

here on DU who have obviously had a bad influence on your thinking!!

[Laurab]

160. Hillary's idiocy.

And I don't think there will be any need for any of us who feel this way to stay home. She's gone too far. She's disgraced the party, and assisted the repuke party. She won't win, and her superdelegates are going to be running from her as fast as they can after tonight.

[RetroLounge]

36. Another Obama supporter voting for McCain?

Not surprised...

RL

[Pab Sungenis]

37. No, not McCain.

Just not for Clinton.

And only an Obama supporter by default.

[RetroLounge]

39. So sit home and not vote?

Typical whiney O-Bot post. Take your ball and go home.

4 more years of repugs.

Oh, wait, that's what you want after all, huh?

RL

[Pab Sungenis]

43. Watch your mouth.

I mentioned before I've worked every Democratic Presidential campaign since Mondale in 1984. My first campaign donation was $5.00 to Gary Hart in 1987, when I was 18 years old. I've been a Democratic Committeeman since 2002, and our county's Party secretary since 2004. I've worked my ass off for down-ticket races, even when I've hated the man at the top of the ticket (John Kerry, 2004).

I don't want a Republican in the White House, but it seems that Hillary prefers the idea of one to an Obama administration, and I can't support that.

[RetroLounge]

46. So will you vote for Hillary if she's the Nom?

:shrug:

and my mouth is just fine, thank you.

RL

[Pab Sungenis]

51. No, I will not.

I don't want a Republican in the White House, but I can't support someone who does what she did.

[RetroLounge]

54. Same as voting for McCain in my opinion

Can't stand Obama myself, and a bunch of his supporters are idiots (here on DU).

But I will still vote for him in the GE.

I guess your years of Dem credentials are more important than 4 more years of Republicans.

That's your right of course, and I hate these Dem loyalty oaths that O-Bots tossed out here so freely... But...

Still sad to see...

RL

[Pab Sungenis]

56. I've not offered, nor demanded, loyalty oaths.

And I'm willing to flush away my years of Democratic credentials if I can no longer believe in my Party.

To reward someone who endorses the opposition party against her Primary opponent would be unforgiveable, and if she leads the Party she won't have me following.

[RetroLounge]

57. She didn't "endorse" McCain and you know it...

:eyes:

RL

[Pab Sungenis]

59. Oh?

"Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience that he will bring to the White House. And Senator Obama has a speech he gave in 2002."

That's an endorsement of McCain in a head to head matchup with Obama.

[RetroLounge]

62. You conveniently leave out the rest of the quote...

Sorry to question your Pope-Obama's experience.

But he doesn't have it.

RL

[Pab Sungenis]

114. I left out the rest of the quote

because McCAIN will leave out the rest of the quote, too. She handed him the best ad he could ask for.

[Joshua N]

151. Are you criticizing the Hillary supporters who won't vote for Obama?

[sellitman]

140. You are wrong.

So very wrong it would take more time in this post than I have now. I too am disgusted with her but not voting for either Dem in the election helps the Dark Side.

We have had 7 plus years of that. If you think sitting home won't help McCain even more than Hillary just did you and everyone like you are hideously mistaken.

I hope Obama wins the nod but if Hillary wins she still has a "D" next to her name.

[Carolina]

self delete replied to wrong poster

[Carolina]

82. like HRC is gonna win

when she is loathed by so many and just stupidly handed her own ass to McCain with her kitchen sink crap. If, by hook or crook, she becomes the nominee, he can now use HER own words against HER by playing them in an with a voice over pointing out that:

A) he is older and logically has a longer lifetime of experience and
B) his experience is bona fide, not based on his spouse's job

What a fucking idiot she is. Ready on day?????????
Her kitchen sink is going to come right back at her.

[HooptieWagon]

44. I dunno, McCain has so much more experience than either Dem

and Hillary's convinced me that that's very important. :sarcasm:

[RetroLounge]

48. Wow! So well thought out and researched

:rofl:

RL

[mmonk]

38. Then who will you support if she wins the nomination?

We have this Supreme Court problem.

[Pab Sungenis]

41. I don't know.

Maybe Nader. I'd have to see what my other options are.

Or I could just write in "Howard Dean," who was my first choice to begin with.
Or "Albert Gore, Jr.," my second choice.
Or "Mark Warner," my third choice.
Or "Bill Richardson," my fourth.
Or "John Edwards," my fifth.
Or "Barack Obama," my sixth.

[John Gauger]

184. Wait, wait, wait -

You said you couldn't vote for Clinton because she's like Nader, but then you said you could vote for Nader. I'm not faulting your decision, you have to follow your conscience. I'm sure you have your reasons, you must have just misspoken. Voting is a largely masturbatory exercise anyway.

[Omega3]

40. first of all you're wrong, she didn't support him, and second who was that activly campaingning for

Lieberman? Why, it was BO that's who.

[Rebel101]

187. BO Backed Lieberman

March 31, 2006: Headline on Boston.com/News: Obama Rallies State Democrats, Throws Support Behind Lieberman. Gosh, you want to support someone who "threw his support behind Lieberman"? Not!

Most of you are taking her statement out of context. But,

[Hoof Hearted]

42. Oh noes.

But I thought it was traitorous not to support our nominee. I guess that only goes for the Hillary supporters though. The rules are so confusing.

[Pab Sungenis]

45. I've never said it was traitorous.

I've stayed out of the debate for the most part. Of course, I understand I won't be welcome on DU if she's the nominee, but that's to be expected.

[bvar22]

50. !

[Carolina]

83. touche, bvar

[Patriot Abroad]

154. EEEEEEEWWWWW!

Thanks a lot, now I feel tainted and must go cleanse myself . . .

Although it's not as bad as the pic with JM giving GWB a big cuddle . . .

[LiberalLovinLug]

158. McCain/Hillary

The pinnacle of treachery against the Democratic voter would be if McCain wins and Obama wins and then Hillary accepts the VP nominee for........McCain!

That photo sends shivers down my spine but I could almost see that happening. Then Obama would be in serious trouble.

[rug]

52. Ever since Countdown, people feel a need to make a Special Comment.

[Pab Sungenis]

58. Having stayed out of the debate until now, I felt the need to say something.

And if my particular style reminds you of KO's comments, I feel flattered. It's just the way I write.

[Mme. Defarge]

53. Au revoir

Madame Clinton

[Divernan]

116. Trust you'll be knitting something while watching HRC's defeats tonight.

As Madame Clinton's haughty, self-entitled campaign/presidential aspirations are brought to la Guillotine in tumbrels with signs labeling them: TEXAS! OHIO! VERMONT! and RHODE ISLAND!

[Mme. Defarge]

119. Madame Defarge is too old for multi-tasking ...

I can no longer drink and knit at the same time. Hélas!

[Divernan]

120. In that case, A votre sante! I have a nice split of Veuve Clicquot

with which to bid farewell to HRC and celebrate Obama's victory!

[Mme. Defarge]

123. Le jour de gloire est arrivé!

[QuicklyLoving]

55. I'm with Obama till the end; but I don't see myself voting for McCain or abstaining

If we take the most important issues that afflict us, for example, the Iraq war, the economy, health care, global warming, etc., Both Obama and Clinton have a progressive solution to all of those problems; contrast to McCain and you have two very opposite candidates.
To me it is a no-brainer: Vote blue.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

60. Don't worry, when she loses the Dem nomination she is going to

run as McBush's VP. It is my understanding he indicated last year he would be happy if she did. Her true colors are shining through, and they are not anywhere close to being blue.

[ayak9]

132. Hillary as McCrazy's VP

McCrazy would have to watch his back. I think of Humphrey Bogart in "Treasure of the Sierra Madre". Big Bad John better learn how not to turn his back or doze off, cause she'll put the knife in him as quickly as you can say "Hell hath no fury like a Clinton denied their divine right to rule the world." Obama would never make that mistake. He knows who he's dealling with.

Go Hillary. Go away!

[Laurab]

164. WOW - welcome out of hiding! Excellent post.

I couldn't agree more.

(I was going to welcome you to DU, but you've been here longer than me). :hi:

[Fox Mulder]

61. I won't support her either.

But I'll hold my nose and vote for her if she's the nominee.

[Tom Rinaldo]

63. You are the one betraying Democrats and helping McCain, not Hillary

Time and time again she has stressed that the Democratic Party has to unite behind our ultimate nominee whoever that turns out to be, in order to defeat McCain. You however threaten to bolt the Democratic Party if the candidate that the other half of it from you supports should win. You say you will not support Hillary in Novemeber, which is an open pledge to stand aside and let McCain win if it comes to that. And you say that because you think Clinton is giving support to McCain? We have reached Alice in the looking glass territory with comments like these.

What Hillary Clinton said is that both she and McCain have extensive national experience in politics, compared to Obama. And that is true. That is her crime, telling the truth. She never said a positive word about McCain's platform or priorities, and she certainly never endorsed him for anything. Clinton pointed out why she is better able to stand up against Obama in an election battle. The public perceives both McCain and her to be experienced but Obama not so much. That too is the truth.

To the extent that experience is valued by voters, and to an extent it clearly is, McCain has a bigger advantage over Obama than he does over Clinton. Clinton thinks she can better match up against McCain than Obama for that reason. I agree, but even if I didn't I would be honest enough to admit that Hillary is making a case for why she would be a better candidate than Obama, not that McCain would be a better President.

So go ahead and betray the Democratic Party and all hopes for getting out of Iraq. Help McCain het elected if he runs against Clinton, by sitting it out as if the election doesn't matter. And don't forget to blame Clinton for that also. It must always be her fault.

I suppose you think none of it has to do with the fact that Obama broke his word to the voters in Illinois about not intending to run for President shortly into his first term in the Senate, when he had precious little national experience to match up against any Republican, let alone John McCain. Most Democrats who have only been involved on the national and/or international scene for two years understand that they need a little more experience under their belt before they reach for the golden ring. It is Obama who set himself up for an obvious unfavorable experience comparison with McCain, not Hillary Clinton.

[Tarheel_Dem]

65. what she implied was that she, like John McCain, had considerable

foreign policy experience, and that lie was quickly shot down on Countdown tonight. And can we finally dispense with the notion that a First Lady is a foreign intelligence expert? If all it took was sharing a bed with Bill Clinton, hell Gennifer Flowers & a myriad of other women could be the next President.

:eyes:

[Tom Rinaldo]

71. At least this is an honest debate. That is exactly what she implied

And that can be argued, and we can disagree, but at least neither one of us would be saying ourtageous lies to score political points if that is what the debate is over. Thank you for that.

For the record I have known many husband wife professional partnerships; some formal, some informal. In the latter the husband has the lead title but the wife does a lot more than have sex with him. HAve you seen any of the video of Hillary Clinton delivering a speech to the entire Chinese communist leadership while she was in China, calling them out on a long check list of horrific abuses of women that that leadership tolerated in that nation? That was an act of real courage. I don't buy the line that Hillary just played wifey and white house hostess.

But Clinon has also served 7 years in the U.S. Senate; four more years than Obama, as much additional time in the Senate as Jimmy Carter spent as President total. Obama already admitted that by January 2007 he was already so busy running for President that he did not have time to call any meetings of his Senate Sub Committee for Europe. He has two functional years experience on the national stage - period.

[Tarheel_Dem]

78. and Bill & Hill had exactly how much "NATIONAL" experience in '92?

when he ran as the "Man From Hope", a concept they now ridicule. Technically, Obama still has more legislative experience than Hillary. And most of the people Clinton dealt with as First Lady are either dead, or no longer in power.

:edit for spelling

[Tom Rinaldo]

85. There is a long history and tradition in America

of voters considering the Executive experience of having been a multi term Governor as significant national experience. Time and time we have seen this. A partial term in the U.S. Senate after leaving a state legislature seat, is not exactly a traditional path to the Presidency.

[Tarheel_Dem]

87. Hillary was not the "GOVERNOR", she was the governor's WIFE....

Hell, if my appendix ruptures, I don't want my surgeon's "WIFE" to remove it, I want the surgeon...Get it?

[Tom Rinaldo]

91. YOU asked how much national experience Bill and Hill had in 1992

I was answering YOUR question. Since Bill was the one running in 1992 unlike this time, and since you included Bill in your question, I thought my answer was on the money. I would not have given that answer had you restricted your question to Hillary.

[lapfog_1]

99. Of course, there is the obvious counter example to your argument.

The last Senator to run and win the Presidency. One who had very little experience. Kinda young too.

[Leopolds Ghost]

110. You're behind. She's criticizing JFK now, too -- not just MLK

"You're forgetting that JFK was young and inexperienced and didn't get a
lot of his ideals through Congress. It took President JOHNSON to get it done."

--New line from the Clinton campaign

[lapfog_1]

112. I thought she trotted that out and promptly dropped it.

Hispanics love JFK (by and large, especially older ones). Slamming JFK did not set well with one of her few constituencies in the Democratic party. I think that was a one hit wonder that lasted about 2 news cycles. The MLK thing went on a bit longer (the Clintons having decided some time ago to throw African Americans under the back of the bus).

[nolabels]

92. Honesty never was a predominate trait of Hilary or Bill

The whole debate about what ever they communicate because of those self inflicted terms make items like this contextual at best. Hilary says there are little green men on Mars and her follower sheep believe her.

So what's the big deal here anyway :shrug:

[Carolina]

84. Oh, that was so good, Tarheel_Dem

ans so true :hi::hi::hi::hi::hi:

[TwilightGardener]

67. Hillary is not, in any way, John McCain's equal in terms of "experience"--

he actually served his country, and sacrificed, and served in an executive role as squadron commander, and served for 25 years in the Senate compared to her 7. If the argument is to be won on experience RELEVANT to the executive branch and the role of CiC, the argument is automatically won by McCain. It certainly can't hinge on judgment, since Hillary wanted the war as much as McCain did.

[Tom Rinaldo]

74. The gap in experience is not so nakedly blatently unavoidable with Clinton rather than Obama

in comparison to McCain. Hillary has been on the national stage for 15 years now, while Obama has been on it for 3 years. She has been reelected to the U.S. Senate while Obama is only halfway through his first term. She has toured the world extensively and knows many world leaders, Obama's adult travels are far more limited as are his working relations with world leaders. You don't have to take my word for it, right or wrong (I think Right) the general public views Hillary as relatively experienced.

[TwilightGardener]

76. Sorry, she'll lose on experience to McCain. It doesn't matter about Obama, because

length of experience in Washington wasn't his schtick--it's hers.

[Tom Rinaldo]

88. This is a fair argument

I think it plays out differently than you though. I think the public gives Hillary enough credit for experience that she seems like a credible alternative to McCain in that regard. It isn't a matter of having equal cumulative years, it is her crossing safely over a threshold called "sufficient experience", and Obama possibly falling short of that threshold. I konw Obama will try to make "new" and "change" campaign themes. Maybe he can win that debte over contrast with McCain, but the down side is it also provides McCain with an alternative to debate Obama over than simply the issues. He can make it a focus of his campaign that Obama is too green to become President at this stage of his career. With Hillary McCain would need to battle her over the issues, and I don't think the issues favor McCain.

[lapfog_1]

103. Can you name one foreign policy crises that Hillary made a decision on?

Trick question... one put to Hillary's foreign policy and military advisers in the press pool conference call.

The answer was a loong time coming (over 5 seconds of dead air)... and when one of the retired military types started to answer, it was a non answer.

Played on KO tonight. Worth listening to.

Hillary has no more experience in foreign policy than Obama. And no, traveling the world as a glorified tourist over 7 years ago, visiting with the spouses of people in power, most of whom are no longer in power, does not count. Hillary didn't have a security clearance, was NEVER in the situation room... not even once, and didn't "sit in" on even one of Bill Clinton's foreign policy crises situations. Not one. As attested to by the players that were there.

So, other than she has 4 more years in the Senate than Obama... but she never served in any other elected office, what is her "experience" advantage?

She doesn't have one.

McCain, who she lauded today, DOES have experience. But I question his judgment. And I question Hillary's judgment too. Both of them voted for the IWR.

I would love it if Obama had Biden's long Senate experience, but he doesn't... but he does have superior judgment. And if experience was ALL that mattered, W's whitehouse (loaded with experienced foreign policy types like Powell, Cheney, Rumsfeld) should have done great! Clearly experience is not a good enough selector for the Presidency.

[Divernan]

117. Obama's advantage is that 3rd world countries are excited at the thought of a

mixed race American president. Having been shit on by the GOP/CIA/Big Corporations exploitation of 3rd world resources, many of the world's countries have well grounded distrust of American exploitation. Obama gives the US a clean slate and a fresh start. The fact that the US would elect a non-Aryan also revitalizes the ideals and hope that the American flag stood for in the world as a symbol of equal treatment and opportunity for all the immigrants who have come to this country, regardless of their country of origin or the color of their skins.

[Emillereid]

64. My sentiments exactly! She crossed the rubicon!

[Carolina]

66. great post K&R

my sentiments exactly

[democrat2thecore]

70. She gave McCain his BEST AD against Obama - Shame on Her! To the Clinton's it's all about them -nt

[Carolina]

75. yes she did but guess what

she also just shot herself in the foot, too. She just stupidly handed her own ass to McCain because if, by hook or crook, she becomes the nominee, he can now use HER own words against HER by simply playing them in an ad with a voice-over that points out:

A) he is older and logically has a longer lifetime of experience and
B) his experience is bona fide, not based on his spouse's job

What a fucking idiot she is.

[democrat2thecore]

77. Very good point, Carolina. If they were to run the WH like this campaign -- sheesh! -------nt

[cooolandrew]

80. Well to go on a positive note may I welcome you to Team Obama. We got fresh coffee ready.

[rodeodance]

90. The only you have into is the Fried brain zone--Get a grip!

[AtomicKitten]

93. I share that sentiment, but take heart:

Bill Richardson came out over the weekend and made it crystal clear, beyond equivocation, beyond spin, that the candidate coming out of tomorrow with the most delegates is and should be the nominee, and it has to end. It would take a miracle for her to get anywhere in the ballpark of catching up with Barack in delegates much less surpass him.

No worries. The party elders will lean on the Clintons HEAVILY to exit the race. They have seen her kitchen sink politics and have had quite enough. It may take a blow dart, animal tranquilizer, and a net to make it happen, but it is already written.

The Clintons made the catastrophic error of reminding Americans of precisely what they didn't like about them in the 1990s.

K&R for your clarity. Cheers.
akitten

[thoughtcrime1984]

107. You have a great point there, AK

Richardson did tip the hand of the Party a bit. Obama just needs to keep it close tomorrow, as there is no way that the senior statesmen are going to want to allow 7 more weeks of Hillary gutter politics desperately trying to win, when in all likelihood , her goose is already cooked.

[AtomicKitten]

113. did you see this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4866144

[Leopolds Ghost]

189. Like the Conan O'Brien episode featuring the lost and wandering MC Hammer backup dancer

"Her campaign is tired, confused and frightened, but she keeps on running
for office through this isolated community. Clearly she does not seem to
know what the situation is... Party elders are attempting to close in
without startling her. They are holding her hand now. OK, it looks
like they are going to release her safe back into the wild of Upstate NY."

[apocalypsehow]

95. Excellent post, K & R.

:thumbsup:

[Milo_Bloom]

97. Just another brick in the wall...

of reasons I would never consider voting for her.

[lapfog_1]

98. Rachael Maddow said on KO tonight...

It's the kind of statement a candidate might make... if they were looking to be John McCain's Vice President.

....
:wow: :wow: :wow: :wow:

I think Rachael is absolutely correct.

Really, really, beyond the pale.

[Diane R]

100. She needs to be held accountable for this.

[Zachstar]

101. I will also be leaving any party that gives her the nomination now or in the future.

I left the republican party to get away from their slime their president Bush and the swiftboating they used to help steal an election.

Now I am seeing that and much worse from the Clinton camp.

I would like to add to that.. In my view I think the democratic party leadership needs to denounce her fully in a full press conference and ask her to leave the party. Her political future to me is now destroyed and if they do not ask her to take her destructive crap elseware (Likely she will flock to the republicans but she will be of no use to them outside the democratic party) then they are allowing the democratic party to be destroyed. If that is the case what the hell do they need my support for?

[Catherina]

102. I don't have enough posts to recommend but recommended.

Hillary seems to think she can pull every dirty trick in the book to steal this election and then cudgel people into supporting her.

For the good of the party, they'll force her out soon because the DP has no intention of suiciding itself for her ambition.

Neither do I.

Goodbye again, Mrs. Clinton.

[LeftCoast]

104. Good! Take your ball and go home!

:eyes:

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

105. She has no loyalty, and she wants to bust the DNC and 50 state strategy

she wants us to go back to a republican controlled congress.

That is perfect for her corporate donors who are counting on her
to prevent Universal health care for another 4 years.

[DesEtoiles]

106. Goodbye and good riddance, Hillary. You sicken me.

[Leopolds Ghost]

108. Irrelevant: She will not be the nominee. Her objective is to bloody Obama. To ensure family rule

By a crypto-Republican alternate lineage run by business interests, and
destroy the liberal wing of the party.

Like she and her husband bloodied Kerry by stabbing him in the back during
and after the Swiftboating, when she made similar statements about Kerry's
war record vs. Bush (remember?)

If Obama actually came out against NAFTA, which I doubt (his camp seems to be
basically lying to the white working class voters, if the media are believed --
and I see no reason not to, given that Clinton is doing the same thing
and Obama says he agrees with Clinton on almost every issue -- )

Obama's camp and, if Obama's popularity wanes, I am sure McCain's camp will
already be infiltrated by the same crypto-Republican rats fleeing the Clinton campaign.

if any part of the party came out against NAFTA or other crucial business interests such as Clinton-era deregulation FOR REAL,

the Clinton's job would be to repudiate the party and legitimize a
party breakup to prevent any change to US trade interests abroad,
such as oil wells and foreign factories.

These interests are playing the Clintons like a harp. "Feel repudiated
by the left wing of your party? Hated by the right? Join us. Support
us from the sidelines. You have nowhere else to go." Remember Zell?
and Lieberman?

Hillary Clinton =

Like Zell Miller and the folks who turned on McGovern. And well-rewarded
for joining the new Reagan camp, which will arise in 4 years time with a
"maverick" Republican at its head and the DLC at its helm.

[BringBigDogBack]

111. great sig man..

I'm laughing hard. :)

[Scurrilous]

115. K & R

:thumbsup:

[Mimosa]

118. Treachery....

Pabsungenis is right about what Hillary's message was. Don't think everything she has stated isn't being received by the American people. YES, I now know Hillary is a racist. I know because that is exactly how her message was received by racists online. She stated either she or McCain would be a better choice to vote for than fellow Democrat Obama who would bring to the White House 'a speech.' I won't make links to disgusting racist sites from here, but they got Hilary's message loud and clear: the White House is meant for whites only.

Hillary supporters please don't insult our intelligence by defending a person who is trading in racial as well as religious bias. Her 60 minutes appearance was disgusting. She played along with the hypothesis that there is something intrinsically wrong with being a Muslim.

The rich sultans her husband Bill befriends in Dubai (remember the $10,000,000 fee Bill collected at a tea party in Dubai only 8 weeks ago?) might not care about what she said but I do. If by some awful twist of fate she should get the nomination many of us could write in a vote.

[closeupready]

121. There's an irony in the fact that if a member of DU had endorsed McCain over Obama,

they'd be banished.

[NorthernSpy]

122. I feel the same way, pabsungenis...

Good post.

:toast:

[Blue_In_AK]

124. Oh, good God...

Obama's the one who's been talking about "working with" Republicans and extolling the virtues of bipartisanship from the beginning. Now Hillary makes a simple statement about experience, and you guys go nuts. I can't believe this place.

Every day I miss John Edwards more.

ed. I do think Huckabee/Winehouse would be an interesting ticket though. :rofl:

[BigDDem]

125. Goodbye, Mr. Obama.

"I am absolutely certain Connecticut is going to have the good sense to send Joe Lieberman back to the U.S. Senate so he can continue to serve on our behalf" - Saint BO

[Baby Snooks]

130. A question for Skinner

If Hillary is the nominee and a viable independent candidate emerges, say Barack Obama, or say Al Gore, are you going to enforce the "Democrat only" rule since Hillary herself violated it already?

[stillrockin]

131. what you said.

:thumbsdown:

[marions ghost]

134. "goodbye Mrs Clinton"

I think we may look back on the events of the past few days as pivotal in defining that "new direction" in politics--ie. away from this kind of subterfuge.

To elevate McCain at the expense of Obama...!?! :wtf: I am still shocked. I thought she was at least above that.

[KimberleeJean]

135. From Greg Sargent

Those who insist that Hillary deserves fair treatment from the media have been subjected to a tremendous amount of abuse by a tiny and unrepresentative minority of Obama supporters who see such a demand as nothing but Hillary shilling, or "Shillary," as they like to put it.

But as Greenwald and Digby both note, it's not hard to imagine that should Obama become the nominee, he may find himself subjected to the same sort of media treatment, if not quite in degree, that Obama supporters defended when it was directed at Hillary. If and when Obama supporters start griping about this, as they should, then the complaints directed at those insisting on fair treatment of Hillary will in retrospect look shortsighted indeed.

[LaloBorges]

137. well...

Not sure what you are doing on this blog. If you are not going to support Hillary, if she wins, then you will be supporting McCain and Bush as McCain is promising to perpetuate all the bad that Bush has done.

What a stupid and simple minded thing to say, you have proven to be a fanatic who doesn't really care for his/her country.

I won't disagree with rejection to some of Hillary's actions in the past and some late comments that she has made during the last days of this campaign but to give the country back to the neocons is nothing but stupidity and suicide.

Please rethink your position, hate should not drive anyone to acts that will surely be regreted in the future. Just think what a McCain presidency would do to the country and the World.

[noac7]

138. It's just a trick!

What she's doing is making her long time Democratic core switch over to Obama, ensuring more party unity! You sir, cannot seem to see the obvious. :sarcasm:

[David Zephyr]

139. Her endorsement of McCain comes as Limbaugh's urging Republicans to vote for Hillary today.

Now we know why she made her pro-McCain comment to woo the Republicans that Limbaugh is sending her way today.

[sniffa]

141. separated at birth?

[nankerphelge]

142. Yep.

I refuse to support her now. I defended her until her latest scumbaggery.

[New Dawn]

143. K&R!

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[samsingh]

146. that's disgusting if she did that

[Barrymores Ghost]

147. As an Obama delegate, I think your threat fucking sucks.

And you should be ashamed. If you are now advocating the throwing away of votes, or no-votes, in protest of Hillary -- on the off-chance -- winning the nomination, then you are no better than the Hillary supporters who have threatened the same thing should Obama get the party's nod. This shit has got to fucking stop, people!!

[Joshua N]

153. This is why this competition dragging out is being detrimental. Not enough folks willing to hold th

eir nose and vote in the GE. After all the reprehensible tactics Clinton has pulled, listening to John McCain for one minute pandering to the RW base made me remember what's at stake. Principles are important, but so are real life consequences.

[delt664]

148. Couple things here....

FIRST, when comparing Obama's 3 years as a Senator to McCains 25 years as a Congressman / Senator and a lifetime of military sevice before that, does Hillarys 8 years of being a Senator really stand out? When you are talking about the 50 something years of experience McCain can claim, whats the difference between 3 and 8? Not much.

SECOND, experience definied as longevity is not necessarily desireable. If it was we all would have voted Strom Thurmond into President.

THIRD, Saying "I have x more years of experience than so and so" is essentially an argument that you deserve to be elected because you have been there longer and its your turn. Guess what? Its about issues and ability, NOT about being there first. Ever worked somewhere and been promoted past that co-worker that has been there forever? Should they have gotten your promtion just because they were there first?

/endrant

[redqueen]

149. Goodbye to you!

Go on and help McCain if you want... anyone spewing any version of this tired ass crybaby bullshit is goin on ignore.

:puke:

[Tarc]

152. "why I will not support her in November"

I stopped reading there. If you aren't here to promote Democratic party members to elected office, then kindly get the fuck out.

[Dave_Fl_50]

156. Same to you. I wouldn't support Obam in November either

I'll vote Dem for Senate and Congress but I won't vote for Obama.

Go ahead, call me names.

[Politicalboi]

157. Hillary is pathetic

And here's another slime attack by her campaign.

http://www.jabberwonk.com/flinker.cfm?cliid=5ydld

[Divine Discontent]

159. THANK YOU

I did my own similar and smaller post, "I miss JOHN EDWARDS", immediately after I the video...

it's disgusting. I know, you know, we all know. She's going down in flames tonight, hopefully. I cannot believe in the same breath she endorsed him in essence, since SHE HERSELF has said this election is about experience primarily, and says McCain "will bring experience to the White House", and Barack's only experience is a SPEECH!

HOPING SHE LOSES ALL 4! OR AT LEAST 3! Because she needed big wins in both big states, and it doesn't look good for her!

[bagimin]

161. The Clinton "brand" had already been tarnished

by the well documented previous episodes in this campaign but this is certainly a new low.

[DawgHouse]

162. Buh bye.

[Seabiscuit]

165. Sheeeesh. Goodbye, Mr. Pabsugnenis. And good riddance.

Anyone who won't vote for our nominee in November is posting in the wrong website.

Did you land here by mistake on the way to Freeperville?

Or did you just mistake this site for a toilet for you to take your rancid dump in?

[onehandle]

166. Three more right-wing SCOTUS members.

That ok with you?

[Lisa Seagren]

168. When you need to get away from all this...

Here's a break from all this.

http://www.mybluecollar.com/videos/6116228427

[galadrium]

169. The Repubs are going to have a field day with this quote if Obama is the nominee

[KaptBunnyPants]

170. I'd vote for her, if she wins the most pledged delegates.

That's about it. I always felt sorry for her, with all of the stories that people say. But after the McCain endorsement, I have to admit she really is power-thirsty and untrustworthy.

[pnwmom]

171. Ridiculous. She didn't endorse McCain over Obama.

She was just pointing out that Obama will have a harder time countering McCain's experience argument than she will.

[TeamJordan23]

172. Tim Russert was on a little while ago said the clip is going to be used by the GOP over and over. nm

[Sarah Ibarruri]

175. It's a statement resulting from anger.

She planned to run for president. Planned it for a long time. She spoke to the biggest money donors possible. She ran for senator. She won. She prepared the stage long long before this year. President Clinton was already setting the stage for her. No one saw it coming. The Obama train, I mean. Who could've predicted how people were going to react towards Obama? I couldn't! If you'd asked me to place a bet long before this started, on whom the people were going to back, I'd have said Clinton and not batted an eyelash.

[Ken Burch]

180. So she hates democracy. Great.

So much for all the HRC people who said "Oh no, she doesn't think she's OWED the nomination...Not our little Hillikers..."

[Sarah Ibarruri]

181. She's experiencing emotions like everyone else. That's all. nt

[Ken Burch]

182. Experiencing emotions is one thing. Using that as an excuse to trash our nominee is another.

HRC owes it to the party now to retract the statement and stop bashing. She stops BEING a Democrat if she doesn't.

And she has no moral right to run again in 2012 if her quote costs Obama the election. The Democratic Party can never recover if we don't win this year. This is the last chance we'll ever have.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

183. I'm an Obama supporter, but I've had "moods" too lol nt

[Roxy66]

176. Dems who refuse to vote in the general for a Dem....vote for McCain

[galadrium]

185. I'd like to nominate Hillary for next week's top 10 conservative idiots

[ekwhite]

188. Now what?

It looks as if Obama and Clinton may split the vote, Obama winning in Texas and Vermont, Clinton winning in Ohio and Rhode Island. I doubt she will drop out now.

More and more people on both sides are swearing they won't vote for the other candidate. Meanwhile, John McCain has locked up the Republican nomination. He can now take a vacation and concentrate on fund raising for the fall campaign and schmoozing with the media.

The longer this goes on, the more likely it is that the party will go down in flames in November. The day after the general election will be night of the long knives after that. God help us, if McCain is elected in 2008.