Can Delegates Sit Out the First Ballot at the Convention?

[tekisui]

Can anyone explain if this is a possibility or ever done? If we have two candidates who stay in until the Convention, neither will likely have 2,025 Pledged Delegates. We will be relying on the SuperD's to bridge the gap to the magic number.

If everyone votes one or the other will receive 2,025, unless it's so close that Edwards' 26 Delegates are needed to make it happen. I don't see it being that close.

So, the question is, can Delegates, Pledged or Super, sit out the first vote? This could prevent either from receiving 2,025. Would the majority winner of that vote still take it, or would they have to cast a second ballot to reach 2,025?

[TechBear_Seattle]

1. Committed delegates? No

By definition, they are obligated to cast a vote in the first ballot, and that vote must be for the candidate they were selected to represent.

If there is no winner after that first ballot, however, they are free to do as they wish.

[tekisui]

3. Okay. So, the committed, Pledged Delegates are bound one the first vote.

What about the Supers?

What I a trying to figure out is if they can abstain altogether. And if they can, does the Nominee still need 2,025 or just the majority of that vote?

[TechBear_Seattle]

8. Superdelegates are free to do what they want

The concept of "superdelegate" was created expressly as a safety valve against the ignorance and short sighted stupidity of the Great Unwashed, after all. As such, they are not committed to any candidate and may vote or abstain.

As to the effect of not voting, that depends on the Convention rules. Most likely, a nominee will be declared based on a majority of total votes cast; abstaining will only serve to lower the number of votes cast. It might be possible to vote "Uncommitted," which will serve as a vote cast but for no candidate, or to vote for any of the previously declared candidates, or for a candidate who won committed delegates but has now dropped from the race; any of these would have the effect you want.

I think it is unlikely that such votes could force a brokered convention, though.

Edited for grammar.

[tekisui]

13. That's what I am seeing.

It won't be brokered, even if we have two candidate going into the Convention.

[mohc]

12. Actually that is not the case

Pledged delegates are selected based on who their preference is at the time of delegate selection. Meaning the candidates to be pledged delegates to the national convention declare their preference and then they are chosen to match the results of the primary or caucus of the particular locality they are representing. Presumably they will maintain that preference, but there is nothing that forces them to vote for their declared candidate. This is why we had the blow up a week or so ago about the potential for the Clinton campaign to go after Obama's pledged delegates (or vice versa). Unfaithful pledged delegates in a race this close would probably have hell to pay, so I really would not worry too much about the possibility. But on a purely hypothetical basis, there is nothing to prevent the pledged delegates to vote for a completely different candidate on the first ballot.

[TechBear_Seattle]

16. Ah, I didn't know that, thanks

I know that state party rules vary. I may also be thinking of Electors rather than delegates. :hi:

[Exilednight]

26. The rules have been changed to fix this problem.

11 (I) : No delegates at any level of the delegate selection process shall be mandated by law or party rule to vote contrary to that persons Presidential choice as expressed at the time the delegate is elected.

11 (j) : Delegates elected to the national convention pledged to a Presidential candidate shall all in good conscience reflect the sentiments of those who elected them.

[mohc]

29. These are actually the rules that allowed this

At the 1980 convention, Kennedy's forces sought to go after delegates pledged to Carter. Then the rules binding pledged delegates were seemingly airtight. Kennedy tried to challenge the rule.

After that battle, the Hunt commission changed the rule, known as Rule 11 (H). The new wording read, "Delegates elected to the national convention pledged to a presidential candidate shall in all good conscience reflect the sentiments of those who elect them." Kamarck notes that this rule, now known as Rule 12 (J), governs the 2008 nominating process.

That means either campaign would be within the rules, if not necessarily within the spirit of the times, to persuade these pledged delegates to change their minds. But such a strategy would risk a major rupture within the party.

Washington Post

While the language in what is now rule 12 J of the DNC delegate selection rules may seem to some to force pledged delegates to remain committed, this very language was added after 1980 specifically to allow pledged delegates more freedom.

[Exilednight]

30. Rule 12(j) was changed (actually it no longer exists) in 2004. Link below to current rules....

http://www.scribd.com/word/full/192090?access_key=cg5nh35ggd1e2


This is what happens when newspapers use outdated reference material. I heard KO repeat rule 12(j) on the air one night, so I looked it up and found the rules have since been changed.

As far as I can tell, the rules have not been changed since 2004, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I have to find a copy of the 2008 DNC rules online. If you know of one, I would love to see it. (I don't want the last part to sound sarcastic, I'm really interested in actually reading the rules and I am truly curious to see if what other changes were made.)

My guess will be that the rules will be changed yet again after this election. The party doesn't want to see this process repeated again and again, nor do they want another Michigan and Florida fiasco to haunt them.

[mohc]

31. Here it is

Delegate Selection Rules

The rule looks like it has remained intact.

[Exilednight]

32. Thank You.

[rateyes]

2. There would be a second ballot.

[tekisui]

4. A 2nd ballot if Supers abstained, and neither got 2025, right?

But CAN they or WOULD they sit out?

[rateyes]

7. Right.

And, technically, none of the delegates HAVE to vote on the first ballot for the candidate they "committed" to in the primaries/caucuses. But, regardless, 2025 is the number that has to be reached, even if there has to be ballot after ballot after ballot for someone to reach it.

And, darkhorse candidates can be nominated from the floor.

[tekisui]

9. But, as I see it this could ONLY happen is Supers chose NOT to vote

at all on the first ballot. If they all vote, one or the other will get 2,025, right?

I am trying to check the angles, I don't think a brokered convention will happen. The only way is if Supers sit out. OR if the count on the first ballot is 2013 to 2012 to 26(Edwards).

[rateyes]

20. It depends on how the supers split the vote.

They are part of the total number of delegates (4049).

[tekisui]

22. Right, but they would be unlikely that the vote would split to force a 2nd round.

[rateyes]

24. I don't know. If Clinton can gain some momentum...

:shrug:

[mohc]

23. They could all vote for someone other than Clinton or Obama

They can pretty much vote for anyone qualified to be President.

[tekisui]

25. Sure, but I don't see that as a possible likely scenario.

I don't think it will be brokered. Even if both stay in until August, someone will win the first vote. They will be bruised from a long campaign, but they will win outright.

[LiberalAndProud]

5. Edward's delegates became free agents when he suspended.

Some of his delegates have already committed to one or the other candidate. Some remain uncommitted. They are already in play.

[tekisui]

6. His Supers did. He still holds his 26 Pledged.

[Exilednight]

11. Not True, Rule 11(j) states that pledged delegates must ...

vote to 'reflect the sentiment', so if it is Edwards sentiment that his delegates vote for Obama, then they must vote Obama. This is one of the reasons that Edwards suspended his campaign, and did not drop out of the race. In suspending he leaves the door open for a return AND he maintains control of his delegates on the first ballot. After the first ballot is when all delegates get released.

11 (j) : Delegates elected to the national convention pledged to a Presidential candidate shall all in good conscience reflect the sentiments of those who elected them.

[tekisui]

15. The only way that Edwards 26 Delegates could lead to a 2nd ballot

is if the first ballot was 2012-2013-26(Edwards).

I don't think it will be that close.

[Exilednight]

19. Yes, but he can give those delegates away. He "controls" the delegates. If he says....

"vote Hillary", or "vote Obama" then those delegates will vote for who he tells them to vote for, but that is only in the fist round.

[LiberalAndProud]

28. Quick & dirty search.

http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/2008/01/edwards-out.html

Wednesday, January 30, 2008
Edwards out
John Edwards is dropping out of the race today. What happens to his delegates? First, all of his superdelegates go back into the no endorsement pool. Second, his 4 delegates from New Hampshire and his 8 delegates from South Carolina will go to the convention as Uncommitted. And finally, his delegates from Iowa don't exist anymore, but will be replaced with Clinton or Obama delegates. That's because delegates to the national convention haven't actually been picked yet in Iowa. There are Congressional District (CD) and state conventions still to come, and all his delegates to the CD conventions will have to vote for one of the remaining candidates to the state level convention. We'll get the delegate trackers updated as the day goes on.

Leaving 12 delegates uncommitted.

[flyarm]

10. and Edwards has requested his delegates ( super) stay with him! eom

[tekisui]

14. But, all of his supers have left.

[Exilednight]

18. Super's can go where ever they want, only pledged are mandated to stay.

[flyarm]

17. Edwards asks delegates to stick with him

this has been out here in internet land for a bit now..


First mentioned here Below
Edited on Fri Feb-29-08 01:25 PM by saracat
http://www.eenrblog.com /



Edwards asks delegates to stick with him
by: peacock
Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 13:07:36 PM EST

Okay people. There is a diary at Kos about this so please go there and support it. Edwards wants his platform to be recognized and we need to do what we can to make that happen.
peacock :: Edwards asks delegates to stick with him
http://www.dailykos.com/story

[tekisui]

21. And he has retained his 26 Pledged Delegates, but his Supers have

moved to others, mostly(if not all) to Obama. Green papers, and CNN have him with 26 Pledged, 0 supers.

http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P08/

[tekisui]

27. Thanks everybody. I don't see a Brokered Convention.

Regardless of who stays in, and how the results go. Hillary and Obama will know this, too. If the Supers continue to line up behind the delegate leader, the runner-up will likely drop. There would not even be the chance of winning at the Convention, and the damage to each candidate would be substantial.