How is Hillary's comment about McCain any different than Obama's Reagan remark?

[Bake]

The Obamatons parsed his Reagan remark to the utmost, but basically said that he was just stating a "fact" about Reagan. Hillary's comment was simply stating a fact about McCain - that he is an experienced politician. Can anyone deny that McCain has a lot of experience? Geez, the guy is older than dirt, and he's spent most of his life (post-Vietnan) in Washington. That's not an endorsement. Nor is it even praise for McCain. Experience is not necessarily GOOD experience.

Oh. I know what's different. Obama said the Reagan thing; and we all know he can do no wrong.

Get a life, people.

Bake

[redqueen]

1. I was offended by both, but this was worse.

I didn't parse the Reagan stuff at all.

Why is this worse? Because we're going up against McCain later this year.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Reagan's not running for president.

Thus Obama's comments aren't going to help him in the GE.

[billbuckhead]

33. Reagan is always running for President

Didn't you watch any Republican debates?

[bridgit]

82. Correct, it's the so-called Reagan revolution republicans say they are carrying on...

[melody]

3. "Parse" is beginning to be a talking point word with the sock puppets

I've seen it thirty-five times already this morning.

I wish people would learn to use it correctly, however ...

[Bake]

15. Since I've been a DUer three years longer than you,

I'll thank you not to refer to me as a sock puppet.

Bake

[melody]

23. Don't measure a DU'ers time by their ID

This is my second one -- and I have only one.

There are plenty of long-time sock puppets. What defines a sock puppet is the consistent repetition of a message
over several IDs. Oh, and not being a paying member.

[superkia]

28. Damn, am I a sock puppet too because I cant donate? My...

mother is on fixed income and its tough helping her with rent, food and prescriptions and paying my own way. I am lucky that I can afford the internet at this point and donating to DU just doesn't take priority over my family. I hope you were saying that they were a sock puppet because of both of your reasons combined because I work as much as I can to make as much money as I can.

[melody]

31. Where did I say being a non-member makes you a sock puppet?

Or did you just want to gripe at someone?

A sock puppet has a number of distinct identifying features that redflag them. There are even paid sock puppets, but at least
they're improving DU by their puppetry.

[superkia]

37. I was just trying to clear it up, I didnt want to be a sock puppet?

What defines a sock puppet is the consistent repetition of a message
over several IDs. Oh, and not being a paying member.


I didn't know if not donating made me a sock puppet or not. The gripe would have been that classifying people because they have less money is just not cool to put it the least. If you weren't saying that, there is no gripe. I thought I was pretty clear that I was trying to clarify what you were saying? Pretty simple...or so I thought?

[melody]

41. You seemed to me sniping at me not asking for clarification, but we're fine now

I absolutely do not think only paying members are valid DU members. I simply think a paying ID has a marginally
lower likelihood of being a sock puppet -- but there are paid sock puppets, too.

[superkia]

44. I was just giving the details of where I stand and why I cant donate.

I also was hoping that a fellow Obama supporter wasn't judging someone by their money...or lack of. Cool, thanks for clearing it up. Keep fighting the fight and get Obama in the oval office!

[melody]

50. Well, you are now a paying supporter

Happy early birthday, with my compliments.

Enjoy all of DU now.

[superkia]

53. Hey melody, it means allot that you donated and gave me that...

star, I truly appreciate it. I really didn't need a star and it certainly wasn't something I would ever take time to even think about in my life but just the thought of you to do that is awesome. It may seem trivial but just knowing that there are people that care enough to do that is an amazing feeling. It may sound stupid but this is what life is about, no matter how big or small, people doing things for other people. Things like this, can do great things, change attitudes that get passed on. I really, really appreciate the thought and I assure you the way I feel, it will be passed on. You have done more than you think!

Thank you so much.


I was typing and just saw your comment so I wanted to update and make sure people knew.

[melody]

56. You're most welcome - I was happy to do it

There are areas of DU not accessible unless you're a paid member, so you'll get full benefits now. Enjoy.

[Horse with no Name]

35. Actually you are wrong there

the site that shall not be named told their disruptors to give a small donation to get a star because some small-minded DU'ers would point out that they were disruptors.
SO no dice. Even disruptors (especially the ones who plan on long-term disrupting) have stars.
So umm...how much did YOU give?
Since you accused bake of being a troll...one can only assume that it is because you are one.

[melody]

54. I know, I made that point -- as you'd have seen had you read through the thread

It's a combination of things that suggests one is a troll. I put far too many word in a post to be one. lol
I've also said there ARE paid trolls. I'm not going to get into this with you, HwnN -- we've had too many
positive exchanges (I worked very hard for the John Edwards campaign).

[anamandujano]

4. Game, set, match.

That's all folks.

[lapfog_1]

5. Reagan is a) dead and b) not running for anything.

McCain is only dead.

[mattclearing]

40. dingdingdingding! n/t

[theboss]

47. That made me laugh outloud

Well done.

[goletian]

55. lol mccain is the undead

plus obama didnt compare hillary to reagan. no harm done.

[New Dawn]

69. Actually, they're both zombies. n/t

[WVRevy]

6. Oh, come on...

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/clinton-obama_slugfest.html

Does it hurt to know that Hillary and Bill ALSO praised Ronald Reagan in a recent book?

Reality's a bitch, ain't it?

[scheming daemons]

7. Obama's Reagan comments can't affect the GE... Hillary's McCain comments CAN

....if you can't see the difference, it is because you don't want to.

[Bake]

24. Really? I can see BHO's description of the Pukes as the "party of ideas"

easily fitting into a fall campaign ad.

Bake

[scheming daemons]

30. He said it in PAST tense... they WERE the party of ideas......

...changes the meaning all around.

[Bake]

34. The PUkes were NEVER the "party of ideas"

Only the party of horribly bad ideas.

Bake

[scheming daemons]

64. Never said they were GOOD ideas.....

....

[Bake]

81. It's hard to read or hear Obama's comments and not take them as positive

"Transformative," e.g., is generally considered to be a good thing. If he had to clarify his remarks afterwards to say that, OK, they were the party of ideas but they were bad ideas, well, he probably shouldn't have said it in the first place.

Bake

[Omega3]

76. sure they can affect the GE, why not???

[bunnies]

8. What about "Reagan is not a candidate" cant people understand?

Its astonishing really.

[nonconformist]

9. It's not.

This is what you call faux outrage.

[TheWraith]

10. Maybe because there's no comparison?

Clinton was saying McCain is better than Obama. Obama was saying Reagan changed politics. Apples... oranges.

[Lerkfish]

11. unless the republicans are running reagan's dead corpse in the general

which, I wouldn't put past those guys, but no your premise is flawed and blindly partisan.

[blm]

12. Because Hillary followed it by saying that "ALL Obama has is a speech made in 2002" which is NOT a

fact but an insult to the 20 years of experience as a public servant that Obama does have.

[John Q. Citizen]

13. OMG!!!!HUGHER THAN EVER- REAGAN IS THE 08 REPO NOMINEE!

I didn't realize.

Yes, that is very bad. Bad Obama, bad.

Only Hill can beat Reagan, because they are both politically dead!

[liberal N proud]

14. The shoe is on the Clinton foot

Most people can only see one side of any story, Theirs!

[democrattotheend]

16. For one thing, Reagan's dead

And not a candidate for president.

Second, since Hillary has throughout the campaign treated experience as her trump card, you'd be hard pressed to argue that she views McCain's experience as a negative.

Third, by saying that all he has is a speech, her statement had the implicit implication that Obama is not qualified to be president. That can be used against him in the general.

[Iceburg]

17. Obama not only praised Reagan, he heaped accolades on the GOP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaoYD7iZG9w&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbaszmcpesc

[Alamom]

38. & dissed our only two term Dem Prez since....the 40's .Who is (btw) married to his opponent,

Obama: Raygun better than Bill Clinton.


edit grammer

[Bake]

62. Yeah, that one kinda bothered me too.

I don't care much for people who diss the Big Dog.

Bake

[LisaM]

18. Well, like it or not, we ARE running against Reagan

Every single Republican contender mentioned him exhaustively in their debates. Reagan (for whatever reason) is fondly remembered by Republicans and his name will come up a lot, since they certainly can't run on anything to do with Bush's record. I think the memory of Ronald Reagan (whom I consider to be wicked) is far more potent than the mizzling reality of John McCain.

[niyad]

27. thank you for pointing out a fact that many are overlooking.

[LisaM]

29. McCain referred to Reagan as "beloved"

I don't care who runs against McCain; he's not going to win. He'll fade.

[meow mix]

19. Reagans not running

people vote for alive people

[Bake]

26. And the LIVES ones all want to compare themselves to St. Ronnie.

At least on the right side of the aisle.

Bake

[LiberalAndProud]

60. I knew someone had stated the obvious.

Thank you, meow mix.

[Beregond2]

20. Quote

She went on to say: "Obama has a speech he made in 2002." Apparently being a U.S. Senator counts for nothing; which means she has no experience either. The woman is just shooting off her mouth in all directions without any thought at all at this point. She is an embarrasment.

[IsItJustMe]

21. Regan isn't running for president. That's just for starters. Don't get me going.

[Recursion]

22. Let me try to clear it up for you

It's quite simple:

Obama said "Reagan changed American politics more than Nixon or Clinton did"

That's largely a value-neutral statement that points out the fact that a (now dead) ex-President had a huge impact on America's politics.

Clinton said "I can bring a 'lifetime of experience' to the white house; John McCain can bring a lifetime of experience to the white house, Obama only has a speech"

This is a mostly value-neutral statement that John McCain will be able to use in the general election: "Even Hillary Clinton says that Obama just offers empty speeches as opposed to McCain's lifetime of experience"

But what is most troubling, far and away most troubling, about Clinton's statement to me is that she thinks she has significant experience that prepares her for this job.

It really, really worries me that she thinks that.

[Omega3]

77. simply stated, he was playing to the indies and centrist repukes by saying that-- bad idea

[Recursion]

80. Right, because it's bad to have independents and centrist Republicans support us

That's one of the silliest arguments I've ever heard.

[Greyskye]

25. How are the Clinton's Reagan comments different from Obama's?

Source: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/clinton-obama_s...

Obama's Reagan Remarks to Reno Gazette-Journal,
Jan. 14, 2008
Obama: I don’t want to present myself as some sort of singular figure. I think part of what’s different are the times. I do think that, for example, the 1980 election was different. I mean, I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that, you know, Richard Nixon did not, and in a way that Bill Clinton did not. He put us on a fundamentally different path, because the country was ready for it. I think they felt like, you know, with all the excesses of the '60s and the '70s, you know government had grown and grown, but there wasn’t much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating, and I think people just tapped into – he tapped into what people were already feeling, which is we want clarity, we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism, and, and, you know, entrepreneurship that had been missing.

I think Kennedy, 20 years earlier, moved the country in a fundamentally different direction. So I think a lot of it just has to do with the times. I think we’re in one of those times right now, where people feels like things as they are going right now aren’t working, that we’re bogged down in the same arguments that we’ve been having, and they’re not useful. And the Republican approach, I think, has played itself out. I think it’s fair to say that the Republicans were the party of ideas for a pretty long chunk of time there over the last 10, 15 years, in the sense that they were challenging conventional wisdom.

Now, you’ve heard it all before. You look at the economic policies when they’re being debated among the presidential candidates, it’s all tax cuts. Well, we know, we’ve done that; we’ve tried it. That’s not really going to solve our energy problems, for example.

And if you think Obama's quotes are terrible things, what do you think of these?

Obama also has been taking heat for praising Ronald Reagan in that same interview. See the text box to the left for his exact words. Clinton tried to avoid mentioning that, for good reason, but Obama turned it against her anyway:

Obama: The irony of this is that you provided much more fulsome praise of Ronald Reagan in a book by Tom Brokaw that's being published right now, as did – as did Bill Clinton in the past. So these are the kinds of political games that we are accustomed to.

Obama is correct: Both Bill and Hillary Clinton have lauded Reagan’s political skills. Tom Brokaw’s "Boom! Voices of the Sixties" quotes Clinton as saying that Reagan was "a child of the Depression" who understood pressures on the working and middle class:

Hillary Clinton (in Brokaw book): When he had those big tax cuts and they went too far, he oversaw the largest tax increase. He could call the Soviet Union the Evil Empire and then negotiate arms-control agreements. He played the balance and the music beautifully.

And here’s Bill Clinton in 1998 at the dedication of the Reagan Building in Washington, D.C.:

Bill Clinton (May 5, 1998): The only thing that could make this day more special is if President Reagan could be here himself. But if you look at this atrium, I think we feel the essence of his presence: his unflagging optimism, his proud patriotism, his unabashed faith in the American people. I think every American who walks through this incredible space and lifts his or her eyes to the sky will feel that.

We’ll leave it to others to decide who's praising Reagan more. The fact is that Bill and Hillary have done it, not just Obama.

[bowens43]

32. It's completely different.

The implication was that McCain is a better choice then Obama. If you can't see that then you're viewing the world through HIllary colored glasses

[madrchsod]

36. reagan is dead

McCain is alive

hillary is .....well i`ll be nice today

[npincus]

39. BO said Reagan was a transformational figure for the Republican Party

which is TRUE... and is not a personal recommendation of the man or his policies. HRC aligned herself with McCain against a fellow Democrat. Is the difference hard for some here to understand?

[Strelnikov_]

43. Apparently

Then again, I don't think they really want to understand.

[npincus]

48. willful ignorance.

how disappointing.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

42. get off of it Hillbot

Please find in BO's statement about Regan a line dismissing the other democrat in the race to 'nothing but the wife of a president' with less than a decade of experience in any elected office.

If he had said 'Regan changed politics in america and had a vision. I also have a vision and can change politics, its not like I'm hanging my hat on my spouses resume and a carpetbagging senate run'

Hillary praised a Republican in order to hurt a democrat!

[JimGinPA]

45. Obama Qualified His Remark, Saying He Didn't Agree With Most Of His Positions

Hillary threw a Democrat under the bus. Big difference.

[anamandujano]

59. after he got blasted for it--Does it bother you at all that he has to "qualify" everything?"

[JimGinPA]

68. No, He Repeated The Qualification After Hillary Misinterpreted It Intentionally

Nice try.


:eyes:

[anamandujano]

73. He didn't just "qualify" this issue, but almost every other thing he said.

And those he doesn't get around to, his supporters here do a "what he meant" again and again.

Nauseating.

[Autumn]

46. No difference

and neither remark bothers me. I can't understand why people make a big issue of it.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

49. Should Obama win the nomination

He has an endorsement from Hillary that he is the only one left with the experience needed

Should Hillary win... umm how would Obamas statement hurt her?

[NashVegas]

51. Hillary Never Said She Wanted to Be the John McCain of Dems

For one thing.

[MrCoffee]

52. It's not different. They were both completely dumbass things to say.

[Bake]

65. Best response in the whole thread!

Right on all points!

Bake

[amborin]

57. Obama's Reagan remark was utter treason

to democratic and progressive ideals

[RBInMaine]

58. Use your brain and you'll know why.

Obama was talking about politics in GENERAL and saying that Reagan had a transformative presidency because he put together a broad coalition.
It was NOT an attack on a Democrat. Hillary the WITCH embraced the Republican opponent in order to attack a fellow Democrat. TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS !! You are NUMB if you can't see the BLATANT difference her in purpose, context, and language.

[Bake]

63. Use your brain and you'll see he dissed Bill Clinton

Who happens to be campaigning for his wife, who happens to be your boy's opponent. Unless you're numb, of course.

Bake

[jmg257]

61. I know I know! Reagan is dead and won't be running in '08???

[amborin]

66. Reagan's legacy lives on

and praising those ideas was pure treason to democratic ideals

shocking

[jenmito]

67. Hillary's comment that "Obama has a speech he gave in 2002" is the problem.

Especially when comparing it to McCain's "lifetime of service" when Obama has 20 years of service, too...much more than just a speech.

[Omega3]

78. community organizer vs. US Senator, sits on commitees, writes important legislation and a war hero

in todays Zeitgeist.

you win :)

[weezie1317]

70. Because Reagan is not running, obviously.

[JackORoses]

71. Say hello to Benedict Clinton!

[Nine]

72. Reagan is the prototypical Republican

The election is not just going to be Clinton or Obama against McCain, it's also (and perhaps even more importantly) going to be the Democratic Party against the Republican Party. By praising Reagan, Obama praised the Republican Party; Reagan is everything Repubs are about. The strongest thing Democrats have going this year is that the other team, the GOP, has screwed things up royally and everyone wants change. Bush isn't running. The way we tie his screw-ups to McCain is by reminding people they are on the same team. Obama hurt us on that position. He made it easier for people to say, "Well, Bush was a disaster but McCain might be different. I judge the candidate, not the party they belong to. Not all Republicans are bad; I liked Reagan." My impression of Obama is that he thinks he's bigger and more important than the Democratic Party.

Clinton didn't give McCain any ideas. If Obama was the nominee they were always going to attack his experience. Clinton is less vulnerable to that criticism and is the stronger candidate against the Rebubs in that respect. That's what she was reminding voters of.

But, man, talk about a "scorched earth" strategy -- Obama's racism charges will hurt Clinton (and Dems) far more if she becomes the nominee than her experience comment will hurt him. It's a simple fact that he has less experience than McCain, and he'd be a fool to try to deny it.

[tinrobot]

74. Obama didn't slam another Democrat while saying it.

Simple as that...

[AZBlue]

75. Oh dear God, do you really need it explained?

Reagan's not running for President.

[Bake]

84. Oh dear God ... yeah, no shit, Sherlock!

Every Republican for the past decade has run as the heir to St. Raygun. They want to put him on Mt. Rushmore, the currency, etc. Yes, dipshit, I know he's DEAD. But his legacy isn't. His "sunny optimism" that Obama talked about isn't .. and the Pukes all think they've got his sunny optimism.

Parse it all you want; it was a dumbass thing for The Messiah to say. And unlike The Messiah's supporters, as a Hillary supporter, I can readily admit that what she said was wrong. I will not and have not defended what she said, although it was, to borrow a line from the Obamatons, merely a statement of fact. It was a statement of fact that I would not have made.

Bake

[gordianot]

79. Hillary's comment is worse. n/t

[George_Bonanza]

83. Reagan's dead

McCain is very much alive (most of the time anyway).

[eridani]

85. Reagan's dead. Dems aren't running against him this year. n/t