I agree. "Now It Gets Dangerous for Democrats"

[madfloridian]

I agree with The Nation on this. Hillary will not win unless Obama is bloodied from the battle. And she and her campaign will likely do that. We learned this week that fear and terror still work, that casually almost agreeing that Obama is not a Muslim..it works. Doubt works. Smears work.

Now It Gets Dangerous for Democrats

Rush Limbaugh said this: ""We need Barack Obama bloodied up politically."

Looks like they will get their wish.

What is getting started is an edgier, rougher Democratic presidential race. And don't think that the New York senator will pull any punches.

If the Clinton campaign has learned anything from the two-week campaign that preceded the Ohio and Texas votes, it is that Hillary Clinton will not win unless Barack Obama loses. The senator from Illinois must be damaged, badly, or so the theory goes, in order for the senator from New York to grab the Democratic nomination from his clutches. Make no mistake: The candidate and her Clintonistas have sought to inflict that damage.

This campaign moves so fast that it is easy to forget everything that happens in a two-week timespan. But, since Clinton lost Wisconsin's February 19 primary, the hits really have kept coming. There was "Barack stole lines from Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick" hit. There was the "Barack stole a page from Karl Rove when he sent out negative mailings" hit. There was the "Barack dresses like a Muslim" hit. There was the "Barack's campaign told the Canadians one thing about trade and Ohio another thing" hit. There was the "Barack's not the guy you want answering the phone in the White House" hit. There was even the "Barack's defiling the memory of Ann Richards because she would have wanted Hillary to have a clean shot at the nomination" hit. And always, always, always, there was the steady drumbeat from candidate Clinton that: ""I have a lifetime of experience I will bring to the White House. I know Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience he will bring to the White House. And Senator Obama has a speech (against authorizing President Bush to attack Iraq) he made in 2002."

Now, the strategy has been sufficiently-if-not-completely validated.

There is no other way. It will continue.

Clinton's campaign has been given a new lease on life.

It will continue.

But she and her supporters – as well as Democrats who may still be undecided about this contest -- need to think long and hard about the kind of campaign will now run against Barack Obama. If the Clinton camp runs the right campaign on legitimate issues, and if it does so with dignity, they will not harm Democratic prospects in November – no matter who the nominee turns out to be. On the other hand, if they run wrong, and seek to destroy Obama by any means necessary, they could be responsible for two defeats: Clinton's for the nomination and Obama's for the presidency in November.

You know, this week I have been remembering how it felt in 2004 to literally see a good man ripped apart and humiliated over nothing. Not just once but many times. It showed us that power and money still hold sway, that the insiders are tough and powerful. It almost drove us away from caring about politics at all. Then Governor Dean formed DFA and we stayed on a while to work and help candidates.

It is not just the attacks on Obama, it is utter ruthlessness in going after the delegates of Florida. Tonight the very man who formed the committee and appointed the people who made the rules...said right on TV they were going to make Florida count.

Terry McAuliffe wants to change horses in the middle of the stream.

He stood on TV and went directly against the rules he helped form. Here is the video of Chairman Dean saying just the opposite, and saying he had been meeting with party leaders to figure how to keep the party together.

Yes, it is a dangerous time for our party. There is a candidate who will win at all costs...even if she can't. Even if the other candidate is bloodied, even if the party splits from the anger of the attacks.

It was hard to stay after they banded together to "take Dean down" as the group said. It will be harder to stay this time. Someone else has captured the hearts and imaginations of people....a look to a future that could be. That person must be bloodied, just as Dean was, for the "inevitable" to happen.

Hillary won some big stuff tonight, even though caucuses haven't even been counted. I am not sure how big a victory it was for the party.

[trynotto_giveuphope]

1. Maybe She'll Start Running A More Positive Campaign Now?

Maybe?

[madfloridian]

4. Apparently she can't get enough pledged delegates, so why be nice?

That is what worries me.

[LongTomH]

6. Not! Bloody! Likely!

She's going to get meaner!

[ikojo]

16. No, she's following Republican advisor, Bill Kristol's

advise by playing to people's fear. It worked for her mentor, Karl Rove, so she's using it. Why working class people support her NAFTA loving self is quite beyond me. Neither she nor her husband care one bit for people who depend upon a paycheck for a living.

If she wins (and that is a BIG IF, because I think she'll lose against McCain) she will put a smiley face on Republican ideas, just like her husband did with welfare reform, NAFTA, GATT, and the WTO as well as permanent normal trade relations with China.

[Medusa]

82. Kristol is small potatoes--the big cheese is Rove

and Murdoch and they are her new best friends.

[krkaufman]

22. You're funny. : ) n/t

[Zhade]

35. Oh, thanks for the laugh! A wannabe-cheater, liar and thief like her?

Not likely.

[madfloridian]

2. Something else LImbaugh said.

He's an ugly person, but this rang some bells.

""I want our party to win. I want the Democrats to lose. They're in the midst of tearing themselves apart right now. It's fascinating to watch, and it's all going to stop if Hillary loses," Limbaugh argued, as he suggested that Republicans in primary states should cross party lines to vote for Clinton.

Only by keeping Clinton in the race, Limbaugh explained, will it be possible to "sustain the soap opera" that might ultimately diminish Obama sufficiently to secure an undeserved Republican win in November. Well, the soap opera has been sustained."

[MaraJade]

20. And Obama supporters don't care about

older folks, rural folks and their concerns. The only thing that Obama cares about is getting more and
more idealistic youngsters to listen to his message. All other concerns can be damned. He keeps talking about
the wave of change that will leave everything old (including the concerns of older folks) in the ashheaps.
And people call this not divisive?

If Obama fails, it will be his own doing and no one elses. You cannot arrogantly and meanly dismiss
the wants, needs and desires of the older folks and the rural folks without consequences. The very fact
that he and his campaign keeps on doing his SHOWS his inexperience and lack of knowledge. Not what
this nation needs in these critical times.

[Andromeda]

44. Three cheers for you!

Not too many years ago people were taught to respect the elderly and middle-aged. People who had a few years on them were thought to be wiser because of the lessons of life. They were listened to and revered for their wisdom.

Obama just wants to toss older folks on the trash heap and let the young run the world. His rational is that we've (older people) have messed up the world so the youngsters are going to have to take over now.

I doesn't work that way. You don't dismiss people who have contributed a lifetime to this world and who have worked hard to put those youngsters you want to turn everything over to through school so they'll know what to do with all this new-found power.

People are living longer now and can contribute to society well into old-age so Obama shouldn't be so quick to dismiss us. When the youngsters screw up and want to have somebody to comfort them what will they do without the advice and support of the elders they are supposed to disdain?

[Demeter]

59. And Then the Middle Aged and Elderly Voted for Reagan

and lost all pretensions to having any special benefit due to age.

[Jim Sagle]

63. Bigoted, ageist rubbish.

[Demeter]

64. So Glad Your Life Wasn't Derailed, Blighted or Destroyed

You are definitely in the minority. Now I am past the half-century mark, and I have my own lesson learned to pass on to you--and ugly campaigner becomes an even unglier President.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

85. How is it bigoted to point out the truth?

Older people voted for Reagan in droves. The racebaiting he did worked.

Deal with it.

[Andromeda]

133. I wasn't old then, and I didn't

vote for Reagan. A lot of young people voted for Reagan too, so I guess that shows bad judgement happens at all ages.

Reagan had charisma, just like Obama. This is why I don't trust Obama and don't believe in his feel-good platitudes.

I feel that my age gives me an advantage because I'm not so easily fooled anymore.

[DemBones DemBones]

136. Agree on all points. nt

[JNelson6563]

66. Hooray for the biggest voting block in the country!

I've been remiss in not thanking our wise elders for 8 years of Bush. Gawd blees 'em!

But I bet they feel safe, right? :puke:

Julie

[Bluenorthwest]

79. Here's a shocker

There were just as many young people in 2000 and 2004 and the voting age was the same as it is today. So the voters, anyone over 18 who is a citizen, cast the votes in those elections same as any other. And half the voters who bothered to vote voted for Democrats. Al Gore won more votes than GW Bush.
Also one of the strongest Bush bases has been the College Republicans. Young people.

Those who were freshly of voting age in 2004 are now just 22 years old, and more than half of them voted Bush. Are 22 and 23 year olds 'elders'? Are 23 year olds who voted for Bush better in your mind than an 80 year old who voted for Kerry?

[loyalsister]

89. Actually, in my state and many others they're running for office

Maybe Obama noticed?
The "old guard" is retiring or worse. The institution itself is being replaced. That is inevitible. Like it or not, people like to vote for people who look similar to themselves.

[JNelson6563]

113. Registered voters and those who vote

Same thing? Um, no.

If I had a nickel for everytime I heard it lamented by activists and politicians that the youth vote just doesn't come out and vote I would be wealthy.

Surely you aren't trying to tell methe youth vote in any way comes close to the senior vote.

Julie

[DemBones DemBones]

137. Julie, you know better than that! If you don't, read

post 79. Every election involves voters of all ages.

[BornBlue]

100. And you shouldn't dismiss the young

You were young once too, or were you born middle aged? Are you so jaded by politics now that you cannot support this movement, can't remember what it is like to be young? Without this excitement of the youth, the democratic party is going to die. The torch eventually will have to be passed, and if you dismiss the youth, who will it get passed to? Just because the youth have migrated to Obama does not mean that he has said "I don't care about the older folks". Hillary is the one who has publicly said only the big states matter, so what if he is winning little states. She is the one saying millions of voices don't matter if they don't support me, not him.

[catgirl]

69. Yah, getting the young involved is a bad thing

when we face global warming, war-happy politicians, corporate greed over the
welfare of people, poverty and job loss, etc. And where do you get that Obama
supporters don't care about older folks, rural folks and their concerns?

What this nation needs is someone who isn't bedded down with the establishment.
That rules Clinton out.

Please stop throwing false accusations at Obama supporters. It's not very becoming.

[marions ghost]

78. Obama will

"leave everything old (including the concerns of older folks) in the ashheaps."

:rofl:

how ridiculous.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

83. Ya know what? I've been meeting a lot of those "older, rural folks" these past few months

And I've concluded that a disturbing number of them are bigoted dumbasses. These are the people who get the "Obama is a Muslim who won't say the Pledge" emails and believe them.

Sorry, it needs to be said.

[roseBudd]

123. Are you saying the people you describe are democratic voters? Really? Because the people in my

experience who are predjudiced vote republican if only because it is the white brand party. And the flag burning amendment votes are for the GOP base.

So I agree there is a block of those types. But weren't these people never in play? And surely they won't vote for the woman who the emailers will claim killed Vince Foster or is a lesbian according to supermarket tabloids.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

127. This is my experience working on the primary campaign.

I am talking about registered Democrats. The people who post on DU are, sadly, not representative of most of our party. The racists are voting for Clinton in the primary (and Edwards before he dropped out) but who knows what way they'll go in the general. Let's not forget that those "Reagan Democrats" came from somewhere.

[me b zola]

109. So older, rural folks aren't concerned about social security?

Clinton is heading up the dlc's plan to privatize social security, or hadn't you heard?

http://www.ppionline.org/ndol/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=85&subid=108&contentid=253475
http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253993&kaid=86&subid=194


The nation, both republican and Democrats, soundly rejected this same republican plan. But Hillary, like her husband, it seems have every intention to continue rw/corporatist economic policies at the expense of all of us--including older, rural folks.

[Cha]

124. Oh please ..your post is so full of bullshit..

do even listen your own disingenous whining?

[DemBones DemBones]

135. Hear! Hear! His campaign has been very divisive,

constantly arguing that "more educated people" and "younger people" are supporting him, as if being supported by older people and/or people with less education is somehow wrong. What an elitist attitude for a Democrat to take! Is he trying to pit Democrats against each other?

It's also an uninformed attitude. A degree does not guarantee knowledge, since some people just memorize information before tests and quickly forget it. Older people got a better education in twelve years of schooling than many have after finishing a bachelor's degree today. My high school education was certainly more rigorous than many of today's college degree programs and I went to public schools. We didn't have grade inflation, or SAT score inflation, when we were in school. It's too bad that standards are lower today because it doesn't help the students in the long run. Public education needs revision, but "No Child Left Behind" is just leaving more kids behind.

[ChiciB1]

30. I Can't Help Myself Here... I MISS John Edwards!! I Wonder If I'll Ever

stop wondering what COULD have been. Yeah, I know... silly musings of a female the same age as Hillary Clinton! And she doesn't make my socks go up and down either, but Obama doesn't make me feel any better.

I'm beginning to feel even more :fear: and wonder how bad it will really get.

JMHO... and a minority one at that!

[mac56]

62. I agree with you.

This all makes me sick to my stomach, thinking how good we might have had it if the party hadn't thrown Edwards under the bus "for the good of the team".

Looks like we're about to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Again.

[SammyWinstonJack]

80. I'll never stop wondering what COULD have been. We really blew it this time!

:cry:

[pauldg0]

146. I agree..............

.....This is going to be a brokered convention coming up.

Does anyone know how Edwards can still play a role?

[Larkspur]

3. The Clintons only care about the Clintons

They don't give a damn about the Dem Party or this country. It's always about them. McCain will kill her in the Prez debates because she is so compromised by her IWR vote.

[madfloridian]

8. Watch the video I posted. It was odd Dean said that about keeping the party together.

There was no reason for him to say such a thing unless he knew what was coming.

[amborin]

48. what was so odd about it?

without even thinking about any behind the scenes machinations, it's clear this thing has the potential to pull the party apart

we've got two good candidates, who have both demonstrated they've got tremendous voter support

Hillary is a brilliant progressive, her debate performances and her command of facts and policy details are dazzling.....she's a tough, determined, resilient fighter, and we need that, given what we're up against with republican power

Obama has a lot of personal charismatic appeal to many of his supporters, and like Hillary, he's identified many plans that sound great.....

both candidates have determined supporters, and the longer this thing drags on, the more acrimonious it gets in terms of those supporters

people say Hillary has run a negative campaign but so has Obama...remember those horrible misleading flyers in Ohio, misleading voters about having to pay out of pocket for Hillary's health care?

that wasn't slimey and sleezy to do?

come on....

but anyway, back on topic....Dean is right, this protracted battle will only bloody both dems, and look how the McCain lobby scandal just disappeared

[antigop]

61. BWAHAA! Hillary a "brilliant progressive"? NOT! n/t

[catgirl]

70. Garnished from your paycheck=out of pocket

The "horrible flyers" were not misleading at all. Hillary just had to have
a temper tantrum for some free press coverage.

[catgirl]

71. Garnished from your paycheck=out of pocket

The "horrible flyers" were not misleading at all. Hillary just had to have
a temper tantrum for some free press coverage.

[Bluenorthwest]

81. Voluntary= mandatory

No mandate, he says, but if you don't volunteer you are gaming the system and will be fined when you do sign up, and billed for back premiums. He's talking in a circle. By his measure, the income tax is voluntary, in that one can put it off and pay later by paying fines and interest.
And your guy is a gay baiting religionist who is parading his bigot pals around to prove he's a Christian via a message of judgement and intolerance toward a strong, organized, educated, rich and very well connected Democratic voter base.
NH had just celebrated the start of their new Civil Union laws and the baiting was not very well liked there. Just so you know. Oh, and NV! Man your candidate walked into that one, they did everything wrong, including of course neglecting the huge show biz industry there. A state that has entertainment as a major economic driver and holds Liberace as a legend, a state that depends on choreographers and artists, writers and circus acts, what would it take for Obama to look and say, all those people in leotards and feathers are probably not homophobes and they bring in billions to this state?
I guess the Foursquare Church just off the Strip voted for Obama and it just was not enough. Maybe he should have done a week with McClurkin and Caldwell at the Mirage.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

101. did the $54 Million Junior Sen propose health care in NY?

what ARE her accomplishments besides naming post offices and savaging other democrats?

[BornBlue]

108. Flyers eh?

One example of how Obama ran a negative campaign, to Hillary's how many. She plays dirty, and is destroying a good man for her own benifit. It really is sad.

[Yavin4]

13. You Are 100% Correct

<<They don't give a damn about the Dem Party or this country. It's always about them. McCain will kill her in the Prez debates because she is so compromised by her IWR vote.>>

She cannot criticize McCain on Iraq because she voted for the war.

[JVS]

15. It's similar to Kerry's situation in 2004

[madfloridian]

55. I think Kerry was a victim in 2004.

I don't think he realized it. They used him as a placeholder, with all the Shrums and others telling him how to act. There was another placeholder who made sure of Dean...Clark.

[JVS]

56. I was just referring to the war issue, where Kerry was particularly hindered by his past.

But what you say sounds about right.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

102. they've made their $54 million, are happy to help the GOP regain majority

thats what the Clinton's do.

[RainDog]

130. seems to be the case

why didn't Bill resign after he was impeached for perjury? the whole case was b.s., but he also lied under oath. If he had resigned in his second term, Gore would've been prez and we wouldn't have had Bush.

I really have tried to be open to the idea of another Clinton presidency, but it just makes me ill to contemplate. I find her supporters on this site repulsive because they've insulted me repeatedly for having an opinion that's diff. than theirs... and I'm betraying females b/c I don't support her... and then this b.s. about Obama not caring about elderly people??

If you have to try to bully or guilt people into supporting your candidate... well sometimes I think Clinton supporters are on crack. If she wins, the party is going to be split because she has so many negatives within the demo base. I have never referred to her in any sexist way... that's really not the issue, tho some try to make it the issue. The point is that ALL of America wants change after 8 years of b.s. and Hillary doesn't represent that. She's yet another Clinton. (oh, and when I brought up the dynasty issue, I was told that there was no dynasty because there had never been a female dynasty... as tho her marriage had nothing to do with anyone's perception of her as part of the repellent politics of the last two decades.

I hate the idea that she would be the nominee and I wish she would stop her campaign. This season is once again the DLC backroom wheeler dealers and the candidate that inspires... as was the case with Dean and Kerry.

Sometimes I wonder if the dems actually want to win. They seem to do everything possible to prevent a united party and hopeful campaign.

[DemBones DemBones]

141. The Obamas only care about the Obamas.

They ALL have huge egos; they're politicians. Why do Obama supporters whine so much about the Clintons?

Could it be you know your guy can't win, that he doesn't have what it takes, that he's a rookie senator who is disliked by many Americans for his condescending attitude?

IF Obama is the nominee, I think he will lose to McCain and it would mean that neither he nor any other black man could be nominated for years to come, maybe 20-30 years.

[nomorewhopper]

5. Now it becomes true gutter politics

good post and i'm very afraid of the coming weeks

[joshcryer]

7. Negativity works, the drug accusations, the race baiting worked well for Obama.

It's a wonderful tactic in our society.

Look at this forum.

Negative attacks from both sides, and it works. People who aren't assholes stfu and walk away, and people are easily persuaded that someone attacking another is respectable.

It's mind boggling.

[rusty quoin]

9. I hate this shit. We don't work like Republicans.

I got a bad feeling about this. (Star Wars)
Or maybe we do work like them. Crapppppppppppppppppppp

[Zhade]

36. Clinton does.

I'll be relieved when she loses (she will).

[populistdriven]

115. Clinton does.

I'll be relieved when she loses (she will).

[babylonsister]

10. I don't know what to think; I've read so many

positive accounts today, mine and my husband's included, about the turnout in TX. Phenomenal. Then I read she's got a problem with caucuses. Then I heard on MSNBC she might contest the TX election. Now she's winning? I just don't know what's up.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4889497

and...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2960469#2960513

[madfloridian]

12. She can't be winning yet....the caucuses mostly have not been counted.

They are part of the vote, maybe a third.

They should not have called TX for Hillary.

[joshcryer]

23. Hillary got the popular vote in TX. What is debatable about this fact?

Because she gets more "delegates"? Which weighs more with superdelegates at the DNC? "Delegates" or "popular vote"?

[madfloridian]

27. only 5% of caucus votes counted.

Caucuses 5% of precincts reporting

Obama 56 %
Clinton 44 %

[joshcryer]

47. OK.

Caucuses don't represent popular sentiment, sorry. TX is undeniable proof of this.

[Divernan]

119. Caucuses represent informed, committed opinions

of politically savy people.

[Divernan]

117. More positive news for Obama from TX caucus in 2 precincts - only 1 Clinton delegate.

My lawyer Texas cousin sent me this email at 1:30 a.m. today.

I went to my caucus tonight, and my precinct (just one small part of Collin County) went 60% to 40% for Obama. The other precinct having its caucus there went 3 to 1 for Obama! The interesting thing was that there was an Obama campaign guy there (he looked like Ron Howard from Happy Days - when he was about 20!), and as we were standing in line to vote in the school gym (after being outside for an hour to wait for the last of the voters to finish voting, which took until 8:00 p.m., because apparently there was a huge line of last-minute voters at 7:00 p.m.!), this guy went around asking everyone to stick around to make sure we would have enough delegates to the county convention.

So after we all signed and registered either for Obama or Clinton, a bunch of us stayed and chatted, and waited for the vote count. There were about 240 votes to count in our precinct, and about the same number in the other precinct, so it took a while. Once the numbers were announced, the Election Chair asked us to divide into two groups, and in our precinct, only 1 of the Clinton supporters was still there, but there were 27 Obama supporters still there (and everyone else from the other precinct who stayed seemed to be Obama people as well).

Our precinct gets 28 delegates to the Collin County Convention (then they pick delegates to go the State Convention in June, then the State delegates pick the National delegates), so with a 60/40 split, 17 of us had to sign up to be Obama delegates (with the same number allowed as alternates) and there were supposed to be 11 Clinton delegates (and 11 alternates). We had 17 people who readily agreed to be the Obama delegates, and the other 10 of us signed up as alternates (I signed last as alternate #10; it's 8 hours on March 30th, which is too long of a day for me as a single parent, although it would have been interesting!).

So my question is, since one of the websites said that the caucus system rewards the grassroots organizers (like the Obama guy at our caucus) who get the people to stay and agree to be delegates, does Clinton only get one delegate from our precinct, and none from the other precinct? That's what I'm guessing/hoping!

[PFunk]

11. I agree. Who ever wins this now will be easy picking for the repugs in the GE in '08.

And I think the current divesiveness between the camps wont be patched over that easily. If not at all.

[JVS]

14. It would be nice if Dean would confront her concerning her negative campaigning.

I'm sure that he doesn't want another McGovern situation like the article talks about. Dean should curb her excesses.

[madfloridian]

28. Watch the video. He met with party leaders to see how to save the party.

How to hold it together. He said there have been phone calls between them already. He says it is not as rough aa 2004 yet, but I have a feeling he does not believe that.

[americanstranger]

17. Yep. Good ol' Democrats.

We had a clear shot to the White House this year, and we're well on our way to screwing it up all over again.

Can we have a viable third party now?

- as

[peace frog]

34. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory

It's coming if HRC continues the negative attacks against Obama. Save us the time and trouble of an election, just hand the presidency to McCain now.

[americanstranger]

42. Oh, you know it's coming.

By the time the convention rolls around, Obama supporters will want nothing to do with Clinton, Clinton supporters will want nothing to do with Obama, Independents and moderate Repubs will be sick of looking at them both and neither one of them will be in any shape to stand up to the Slime Machine.

We're friggin' geniuses in this party. Too goddamn clever by half.

We could have won this year, but I fear it ain't gonna happen.

- as

[ClayZ]

18. Judging from the Obama speech,

he is better for the struggle!


Go Obama!

Yes We Can!

[tridim]

19. I think Obama should declare a truce, no more negative (damaging) campaigning

and use it as leverage if she refuses.

If she accepts, everybody wins.

[gravity]

24. That seems like a good strategy

He will refocus his campaign and confront Hillary on the negative attacks.

Obama was caught off guard the last couple of days, but I don't think he will make the same mistake again

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

73. But...

...then we'll see "negative" parsed to within an inch of it's life.

[Johonny]

21. I think this is good stuff

Who ever you support, I think it's clear the turn in the campaign hasn't been a good one this past week. I don't know what Hillary does to win back Obama supports she has basically mocked openly at campaign rallies. I have no idea if Obama can win back Hillary supporters who seem convinced he will lose the GE. All the great turn outs, all the primary talk on the issues, all the good stuff might not be repairable. Then again 4 more years of Republican rule might make all this primary stuff seem silly come November. It's hard to tell. Tonight all I can tell you I've pretty much lost interest in this primary race because the race isn't about anything I CARE about anymore. It appears tonight to be about rescuing Clintons ego and finding out how negative you can go against an African American candidate.

The oddest thing about the whole race is I think Clinton might have better ideas than Obama, and Obama might be actually better organized to be ready on day one to be president. Ahhhhhh... my head exploded.

[madfloridian]

25. Yes, it is about rescuing the Clintons.

2004 was about placeholding for her.

[SoCalDem]

26. and they want to reward the rule-breaker states of FL & MI

by making them the "final tie-breaker" states....

Kind of like Mom sending you to your room, where a catered party awaits you.. & all the ice cream you can eat..

Dean needs to play hardball and either make all the sooopers commit..NOW or deduct the 366 (FL & MI) from the 3253 pledged delegates (2887)..and the first one to get to 1444 pledged delegates ..wins.. (No soooopers allowed..there can be no tie)

It's obvious that sooooopers are not even "needed" since there is no "kooky candidate" that needs to be bumped off..just two good ones..and only one can win..


let MI & FL send some people to the convention, but they get no votes.. they were punished..remember??

[GoldieAZ49]

29. it is called Politics and is not for the faint of heart

since 1980 the Clintons have not lost to anyone and they are not going to lose this to Obama, they will not walk away, they will not 'play nice' they play to win.

Policy? There is not spitting space between the two of them on policy. It will be about experience. Hillary has set the tone on that, and the note rings true. This will be hard hitting, more than the past week or two have been.

Fact: people vote on fear more than they vote on hope.

In this day and age, after 9/11, fear of a hopeful inexperienced POTUS is going to bring voters out.

[madfloridian]

31. Then she will be the nominee because of attacks.

I guess we have to accept that rule of the insiders or leave.

:shrug:

[GoldieAZ49]

32. The game doesn't change just cuz you want it to

When the Clintons first ran, they ran "clean" and lost

It really is an ugly business, why most will not go into it


She was serious when she said she was just getting warmed up. She has taken him off his pedestal, the infatuation is fading and his momentum has been broken.

[writes3000]

33. Mark my words...

The uglier she makes this, the more like she will LOSE the general election.

She cannot afford to mock, belittle and insult the millions of people who have supported Obama.

And no matter what you say, no matter how petty your side gets, Barack Obama has never, ever insulted the intelligence or the integrity of the Hillary voters.

Good night.

[Daphne08]

38. You are so right. n/t

[AlinPA]

75. re"She cannot afford to mock, belittle and insult the millions of people

who have supported Obama": I don't see how she could expect to "unify the party" as she has said after insulting voters who have been inspired by Obama.

[madfloridian]

76. Ohio Gov: “following their heart without engaging their head in the process.”

That is what Governor Strickland said about Obama supporters. He is the one who said he would deliver Ohio for Hillary.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1885

" Yesterday, though, it was impossible to miss you standing behind Senator Clinton and nodding as she delivered her "shame on you" tirade. This morning, I was disheartened to read your remark about Obama supporters “following their heart without engaging their head in the process.” Yes, I know you said some Obama supporters, but you're playing into stereotypes, which I hope you don't really believe. Please be careful. Once you've said something, you can't really unsay it, you know?"

They said the same things about Dean supporters.

[madfloridian]

37. Then the party will go back to the old way of doing things.

And hubby and I who were so inspired for working so hard in 2004 will move on, I guess.

It is not what I want so much, as the total disillusionment I feel when I see her now.

2004 was her placeholder. This is her time, and nothing else matters.

Is Hillary's campaign being run as a "shadow DNC" for her benefit?

"A few months earlier, The New Republic had reported that Clinton's camp was "laying the groundwork to circumvent the DNC in the event that Clinton wins the nomination." This shadow DNC had a number of integral parts: adviser Harold Ickes would develop state-of-the-art technology to help Clinton reach prospective voters; EMILY's List and Clinton's allies in organized labor would launch an unprecedented effort to turn out supporters, especially women voters; former DNC chair Terry McAuliffe would raise untold sums from wealthy donors and the business community; and communications honcho Howard Wolfson would direct an unrelenting war room. Ever since 1992 the Clintons had used the DNC as an outpost for raising money from big donors, and funding candidates had taken precedence over nurturing progressive organizers. That model would continue into '08. Dean could remain at the DNC as a figurehead but only if he stayed in line."

If there is no hope, and no rules will be followed, then maybe some won't be sure of what they will do.

I saw one good man destroyed in 2004. He fought back. Now they are ignoring that man as leader of the party, and they are bringing down another.

So be it. It that is how it will be.

[AikidoSoul]

114. These tactics could destroy the party

faithfuls trust in the Democratic Party. We have always been able to trust the loyalty of the black community. If Hillary plays a dirty game to win by pushing for Florida and Michigan to be seated at the convention -- we are going to see a HUGE rebellion amongst the faithful.

I wouldn't blame them at all.

I think this may be the final war between the real Democratic Party and the Republican wing of the party.

See what the N.Y. Times had to say today about the possibility of seating FL and MI delegates:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



Mrs. Clinton closed the gap with Mr. Obama by 15 delegates after her victories in Texas, Rhode Island and Vermont, not counting the results from the Texas caucuses, which have not yet been finalized, according to a New York Times count. Overall, according to a projection by The Times that includes a survey of super-delegates, Mr. Obama was left with 1,456.5 delegates compared to Mrs. Clinton’s 1,370.

A fund-raising e-mail message was churned out overnight to Obama supporters, declaring the results “make one thing clear.”

“When the dust settles from today’s contests, we will maintain our substantial lead in delegates,” the e-mail continued, signed at the end, “Thank you, Barack.”

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


A central challenge for the Clinton campaign Wednesday was how to deal with questions about mathematical realities. Mr. Penn and Mr. Ickes, in their memo, sought to refute the argument made by Obama supporters that he leads in the popular vote and has won nearly twice as many states. They argue that Mrs. Clinton has done better in states that will be battlegrounds in the general election, including Ohio, Michigan, Nevada and Florida.

None of the Democratic candidates, however, campaigned in Michigan and Florida as part of an agreement with the Democratic National Committee, which was punishing the states for moving up their primaries.

Indeed, the most controversial part of the Clinton memo may be at the end, where Mr. Ickes and Mr. Penn again make the case for seating delegates from those states, which Mrs. Clinton won.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/05/us/politics/05cnd-campaign.html?hp

This a.m. on the Diane Rehm show someone stated that there is an obscure provision in the Dem Party rules that would enable the Clintons to seat FL and MI. The guests also discussed how it could split the party apart.


I'm afraid of the harsh dog-eat-dog, win at all costs flavor to this. It is already getting really ugly, and potentially EXTREMELY destructive!

On edit: It occurred to me that the Clintons probably know how destructive seating FL and MI would be in that this morning Hillary was on the talk shows responding to queries about the possibility that Obama might be considered as a running mate. Hillary said something like, "...this might be where this is headed..."

Would that heal wounds, or would it sink our chances?

I personally think that idea would not be a winning ticket simply because a large segment of the public still has such strong prejudices against women and blacks. They might be able to overcome one prejudice... but two would likely contort the outcome to favor McCain.

[Kool Kitty]

40. One question that I have is Hillary always saying

she has a "lifetime of experience" or "35 years' experience". What experience would that be? She has been a senator and First Lady. I wouldn't think that she had the "answering the red phone" experience.

Saying that, just know that whoever winds up with the Democratic nomination, they will get my vote, because the alternative-McCain-is just unthinkable.

[foxer]

77. I wonder which Hillary will answer the phone

[PatGund]

145. The feeling I get from Sen. Clinton is.....

....It's all about her. Period. Party be dammed. Her attitude seems to be "if they won't vote for me, screw them!"

If she doesn't get them nomination, I fully expect her and her cronies will do everything in their power to sabotage Sen. Obama - and then if he loses, look sad and say "if you had only picked me....."

Quite honestly Sen. Clinton's campaign reminds me of an abusive parent who beats the child and then tells the child "look what you made me do!"

[johnnydrama]

39. and it's also bad

that the convention is so late.

They can both stay in it until the convention for all I care, but not at this pace of harshness. That would hurt both of them.

[madfloridian]

41. This came to mind today. The tactics we use against each other....

I thought of the way Hillary praised John MCain to the skies, and said Obama only had a "speech." The attacks to blooody, the humiliating way she talked of the skies opening in that speech.

I thought of this, and we are using it against our own now, just as we did in 2004.

The tactics of ridicule, the tactic of ignoring the base, tactic of appeasing the right....

"The tactic of ridicule is being used quite widely in Florida now. It is working. Florida worked with the GOP here to get the vote through for the early primary. Then they immediately started the ridicule of Howard Dean and the DNC. It was well orchestrated indeed. They covered up their own dirty deeds by shifting blame and filing lawsuits."

Now they will claim the delegates from Florida, again breaking the rules.

I feel very discouraged again as I realize the outcome is set, and all the things we have done, our activism, just don't matter.

[depakid]

43. Not dangerous -transparent

and something that all of us -and the country, could have used (and damn- don't you wish we had) in 2004.

[madfloridian]

45. Dangerous actually.

Because of the harm done for inevitability.

[Dogmudgeon]

46. Wait until Barack Obama goes negative.

Should be in about three weeks. April 25 at the latest.

But if he does that, the aura of perfection goes down the toilet.

But perhaps I am wrong.

--p!

[joshcryer]

49. "Wait"? He hasn't been negative all this time?

He's not the one who flamed the Hillary campaign of the drug accusation stuff? The race baiting stuff? Calling Hillary out for her Wal-Mart thing? I mean, really. The guy has gotten off the hook for far too long for his negative spin against Hillary. His stump speech bashed her for far too long, it's about time she realized American's, the stary eyed consumers who strive for entertainment, want a President that will play dirty.

[amborin]

51. Obama's campaign sent those misleading Ohio health care flyers

suggesting Hillary's health care insurance program would mean costly out of pocket expenses for lower income people....

that was sleezy and nasty....totally dirty politics

so once again, the media lets Obama off the hook...

what IS it with the media? why is it always nasty attacks against Hillary?

and it was Obama who brought up this whole Nafta issue, to bash Hillary

[mrreowwr_kittty]

88. What about HRC's misleading flyers in NH about Obama's record on choice?

NARAL and Planned Parenthood condemned them.

As for the media mistreating Her Majesty, how do you suppose they'd be treating Obama had he been the one who lost 11 primaries straight? The clarion call for him to drop out would be deafening. But the Queen has been indulged for weeks now, getting free airtime for every tirade and trumped-up outrage. This has allowed her to remain relevant far past most other people's expiration date.

Media hard on Clinton. Pffft.

[Dogmudgeon]

58. You're right. My mistake. I regret the error.

And I'm enjoying the value of learning!

:evilgrin:

--p!

[DemBones DemBones]

138. She has been way too nice to the guy from Chicago,

Mr.-Smile-at-You-While-Stabbing-You-in-the-Back. His supporters think anything she says is "mean" and anything he says is an "epiphany" and "hope" and "peace, love, and hippie beads." :puke:

This worship of a rookie senator, a politician like any other pol, is disgusting.

Howard Dean can fight for Obama all spring and fall but I will never vote for that smug, smirking, lying jerk. We've already had one like that for more than 7 years.

Hillary Clinton won't be the greatest president we've ever had but she'll be better than McCain. Nominate Obama and we'll get McCain.

Obama is a GOP stalking horse and people need to wake up and realize that.

[madfloridian]

50. There is no aura of perfection around anyone.

There is an aura of inevitabiity around the Clintons. They have said the party rules are not theirs. They have said they will push for Florida delegates. They are fighting the party rules as hard as they can.

I was never that excited about any of them, but I was learning to appreciate the classiness of Obama. Now she will be inevitable.

I hope the party will survive them.

[amborin]

52. classiness?

what is so classy about Obama?

as just mentioned, he has resorted to really dirty tactics

the misleading health care flyers in Ohio, trying to scare lower income people into voting for him...thinking they would have to pay out of pocket, not realizing they'd get a govt subsidy

and saying Hillary was on the wallmart board, or that she was responsible for Nafta, etc......

that's all classy?

again, the incredible double standard is at work

[madfloridian]

53. Oh, god.

He has an air of class and graciousness that Hillary will never achieve.

[catgirl]

74. Why don't you say it one more time?

If you say it enough you may actually begin to believe it. He stands by
his statements about her health care plan. It is money out of the pocket.
Garnished paychecks is Money out of the pocket.

Did you not hear her say this? I certainly did.

[Divernan]

118. So you're saying she WASN"T on the Walmart Board! What alternate universe are you in?

[DemBones DemBones]

139. Yes, she was, but Sam Walton was alive then and

he made it a policy to sell only items made in the USA.

NOW Wal-Mart appears to sell only items made in CHINA and Michelle Obama is on the board.

Kind of makes Michelle look bad, doesn't it?

[madfloridian]

54. The criterium is not who is the best candidate...just who can weather attacks the best.

That's all it is. Be tough. Be mean. Take it like a man.

Bull hockey. That is what we have become.

[babylonsister]

57. Who has the best plan, sounds more like it to me. And that is Obama.

His major thing is diplomacy, and that is so attractive to me.

[BayjanDem]

60. Win at all costs

That's the Clinton strategy. It's working. My concern is this: Usually registered Democrats support whoever the nominee is running against in the general election. But if Hillary resorts to the negative personal crap, will those of us that support Obama support her in November? Right now, it doesn't look good. A lot of the Obama supporters I've spoken to are pissed, PISSED at HOW she won Tex and Ohio. And now she's got Lard ass Limbaugh telling his minions to vote for her to keep "the mess" going. Unlike John Kerry in '04, if Obama wants to get back the mo, he's gonna have to get real personal. Chicago style. I don't know if that's something he wants to do.

[Coexist]

65. it has become abundantly clear that the Clintons care about the Clintons more than the party.

[MilesColtrane]

67. Rove tactic #1 is to attack your opponent's strengths.

In this case, it's the fact that Obama is a relative newcomer in Washington. (4 years vs. Clinton's 15)
This gives some people hope that he really is a "fresh face" who isn't covered with the stink of entrenched partisanship and corporate corruption.
Clinton finally started winning again when she attacked Obama's alternative to politics as usual as inexperience.

That tactic, and the fact that Republicans were crossing party lines to vote for Hillary helped insure Obama's losses yesterday.

[NOLALady]

68. HRC is Republican Lite.

Maybe it is time to create another party.

[readmoreoften]

72. And so is Barack Obama.

You see any difference in the candidates? I don't. Just in the hype.

http://politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2008

I'm leaving the party after this election.

[natrat]

92. agreed but polls show he can beat mcain while she cant

further her associations, and bill's, are downright sleazy

[redqueen]

84. *sigh*

:(

[madfloridian]

86. I was not against Hillary at the beginning....that is the scary part.

We actually supported Edwards, then decided to be open-minded about all 3 of them. We supported Obama when Hillary decided to go after Florida's delegates.

Today hubby and I realized that we can not even stand to watch or listen to her on TV now.

That is the danger. So many of us saw this side of politics in 03 and 04, and we thought we were over it.

The day they played the video of her "the sky will open" and "celestial choirs"....we could not watch her again.

That is the danger. It is real.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

106. So I'm not the only one???

Some critical mass has been reached internally for me -- I have recently found myself turning the TV off whenever she comes on! I was really shocked at how disgusted I have become with her -- the last few weeks were just the icing on the cake for me. It caused me to reflect on a desire back in '92 that she be the one running for president instead of her husband -- damn, what changes 16 years will bring...

[madfloridian]

110. We can not watch her or George Bush.

Period. Something happened to my brain when I saw that nasty video about the celestial choirs. And for her to praise McCain on the same day the DNC chair was presenting negative facts about him...was terrible.

[DemBones DemBones]

87. I had read that Howard Dean was pushing the Obama campaign.

Guess this proves it.

Disputes over seating delegates are nothing new in politics, especially among Democrats. I agree that FL and MI should not have held their primaries in advance of Super Tuesday -- but why were the Iowa caucuses, the NH primary and the SC primary allowed to precede Super Tuesday? I think we should do away with caucuses, in which the more assertive people can bully others into voting for their preference, and have ALL primaries on Super Tuesday, with delegates assigned proportionally in relation to votes.

But what to do now? People in FL and MI went out and voted when their states allowed them to. They didn't have a choice. Aren't you mad, madfloridian, that Dean is saying your vote won't count? Or do you want it that way in order to hurt Clinton?

(I think Clinton won FL and Obama won MI but may be wrong; I haven't been paying that much attention to who won what state, especially in the early primaries. I despise the system that so limited the debate participatrion of Biden, Dodd, Gravel, and Kucinich. I know you remember when debates were sponsored by the League of Women Voters and were much more equitable.)

The voters in FL and MI have been screwed by their states. The party should seat the delegates at the convention since the delegates didn't break the rules and neither did the voters, the states did. Or the states should hold another primary, as Gov, Crist in FL has mentioned. The convention really should vote to have all the primaries, and no more caucuses, on Super Tuesday, NO exceptions, from now on. Then campaigns would not drag on forever and bore most voters to death.

I also think that candidates should only be allowed to start campaigning six months before Super Tuesday, and that something should be done to prevent crossover voting in primaries. Obama won a number of primaries because Republicans crossed over and voted for him, trying to make him the Democratic nominee for McCain to beat. Maybe a few of those Republicans would vote for him instead of McCain but I wouldn't count on it. Clinton would have won more primaries if Obama hadn't had all that help from the GOP. I know he's gotten a lot of young voters and black voters to turn out for him, but I don't believe he can get enough support to beat McCain.

You know I've always supported Kucinich. Once it got down to Clinton and Obama, I realized I had to support Clinton because she is far more experienced, more progressive, and more honest than Obama. She can beat McCain but Obama can't. If Obama is the Dem nominee, I will vote third party, hoping that Cynthia McKinney will get the Green Party nomination.

I won't vote for a man who has led people to believe that he voted against the IWR when he was not elected to the Senate until two years after the vote and when he said in his Senate campaign that he basically agreed with Bush's policies on the war. Once he got in the Senate -- after running against Alan Keyes, who didn't have a chance in hell -- he has voted for every bill to fund the war and voted to extend the PATRIOT Act. That is not exactly my idea of an anti-war candidate, or a civil rights candidate. Why is it yours?

[madfloridian]

90. Spreading things that are not true....devastating to our party.

From instigator to victim. It was a Dem who introduced the early primary bill in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1829

How it began last August....how Florida Democrats began their propaganda war
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1819

Think I exaggerate about Florida's attitude? Here's a county chairperson's rant against Dean.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1827

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a "voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1453

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1452

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1456

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1460

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1462

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1466

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1469

Bill Nelson today will file a bill for regional primaries...but first he had to get your attention
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1478

Bill Nelson today: "DNC penalties unacceptable, unacceptable, unacceptable"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1479

Carl Levin and Terry McAuliffe made a deal about primaries in 2004.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1483

Email from Florida DEC chairs saying not to give to the DNC or candidates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1481

Pelosi says it is not Florida's fault at all. So if the speaker says it I must be wrong.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1567

"Florida Democrats are all for it"...March 2006. All for the early primary that far ahead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1564

Details on how Florida worked with the GOP to set the early primary date.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1617

Nobody sued Terry McAuliffe when he said Michigan's delegates would not get near Boston.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1638

Nelson and Levin of Michigan file the bill today. It's getting deeper
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1741

My postings about the heartbreak of the Florida primary fiasco.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1607

Florida Dems at convention have button that says "Screw Dean"...very classy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1608

Senate leader ponders suing 'rogue states' over primary
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1527

[mzmolly]

93. "On the other hand, if they run wrong, and seek to destroy Obama by any means necessary, they could

"be responsible for two defeats: Clinton's for the nomination and Obama's for the presidency in November."

Agreed :( We should all be calling the campaign and encouraging them to do the RIGHT thing.

[Gman]

94. Why do people want to put lacey panties on Obama

and cry about what a victim he is and how Hillary is so horrible?

Do Obama a favor. Take the panties off of him. I think he can take up for himself. If he can't he doesn't have any business in this race much less being president.

[madfloridian]

95. That is ugly and NOT what this is about.

Shame on you for misstating something like that.

[Gman]

96. Well then quit treating Obama like he's so fragile

And yes, that's exactly what this is about.

[madfloridian]

99. It is about sarcasm and "celestial choirs" and "skies opening"

and her upraised arms showing utter contempt for him and his supporters.

It is about the governor of Ohio who said he would deliver it for Hillary saying that Obama supporters thought with their hearts and did not use their heads.

It is about her praising McCain and putting down Obama, saying he only had one speech.

I love the meme by Hillary supporters that ugly politics is just fine.

[Gman]

105. I've never seen utter contempt like

the utter contempt shown by Obama supporters toward Hillary and her supporters (surrogates to you Obama supporters).

You list those things like they're bad things. Surely that's sarcasm. Politics is a contact sport and even a blood sport. Again, if Obama can't take it I damn sure don't want him in the WH where someone like Putin would turn him inside out.

[midora]

120. We're Contemptuous Of Hillary Clinton and her Supporters....

..for obvious reasons. All I can say is, guys, what goes around comes around. If she wins the Democratic nomination, McCain and the Repubs will wipe the floor with her.

[DemBones DemBones]

134. Obama gave the "epiphany" speech, telling a crowd that they would

have an epiphany that they must vote for him. He opened that door.

Clinton's riff on his "ephiphany" speech was funny. If a Republican had delivered Obama's "epiphany" line, you'd be laughing at Hillary's riff on it.


Obama really needs to stop stating that he opposed the war from the beginning when in July 2004, while campaigning for the U.S. Senate, he told the Chicago Tribune that his position on the war was basically the same as George Bush's position. That contradicts his 2002 "anti-war" speech. His votes in the Senate to fund the war also show that his anti-war stance is phony.

Senator Clinton should keep stating this because the media has let Obama get away with lies for months.

Politics is ugly. You're old enough to know that, and to know that it is not "a meme by Hillary supporters." If Obama can't take the heat, he should get out of the kitchen. What's he going to do when the media turn on him -- send Michelle out to whine at them about how hard the lives of Barack and Michelle are, having to get by on over a million dollars a year in their house that cost more than $1 million? The Obamas are Not Ready for Prime Time.

[FloriTexan]

104. If we can agree to leave Obama's panties on...

can we agree not to require Hillary to remove her girdle?

[Gman]

107. Deal!

[Yael]

97. Snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory

Welcome to the big tent.

*sigh*

[FloriTexan]

98. Link to the Texas Caucus Results...

It looks like these are running totals. Results are still coming
in at this time ...

http://precinctconventionresults.txdemocrats.org/election08district

[madfloridian]

103. Thanks, will take a look.

:hi:

[OzarkDem]

111. Going ultra-negative will hurt Obama

but that's his choice.

[madfloridian]

112. The poster simply presented the caucus results link.

Not a word was said about Obama or Hillary.

So you think it is ok for Hillary to be negative, and not Obama?

[AikidoSoul]

116. Kick and Recommend

:kick:

[mistertrickster]

121. Zellary's determinination to win at any cost is all we need to know about her loyalty to the party

and its cause.

Husband Bill -- almost insanely -- engaged in the sleazy Monica Lewinsky affair with special prosecutors breathing down his neck. This is after he narrowly dodged a bullet in the Paula Jones Sexual Harrassment case.

That's how much he cared about our party.

Why do we expect anything different from his wife?

[OzarkDem]

125. What's that smell?

[mistertrickster]

143. Yeah, I've only posted about 2500 times here.

Face it, Bill's reckless selfishness cost us the election in 2000, which shouldn't have even been close . . .

[chill_wind]

126. Couldn't agree more.

We can thank him and Diebold- both- for these last 8 nightmarish years. Florida 2000 shouldn't have been even remotely close enough for that loser joke from Texas to even be convincingly close enough to steal. Should not have even been remotely close!

[mistertrickster]

144. Thank you. So many people around here want to pretend that when a

Democrat does it, it's somehow okay.

If Bill had stepped down during the scandal, as he should have, Gore would be running this country right now and we wouldn't be bogged down in two wars . . .

[Timbuk3]

122. Because (apparently) if Hillary dropped out today...

...the GOP wouldn't start bloodying Obama, tomorrow.

Here's a hint for ya'all.

Rush Limbaugh isn't your friend.

[VotesForWomen]

128. grow up! if your candidate's strategy is to pout and demand that all opposition drop out, then *he*

should drop out, because he'll never make it in the GE.

[madfloridian]

129. Was that ugly response to me? To my post?

Gee, if I grow up much more I'll be dead.

[Turner Ashby]

131. Well, here is one mad Floridian

Play by the Rules, Madame Clinton. The delegates were not supposed to be seated. End of story. If the Democrats of Florida, who knew all the repercussions of Florida's decision well in advance, didn't say a word, that was their tough luck. Now, is not the time to whimper and whine like spoiled brats. Nelson went to court and lost, as I told his office staff today by phone. Learn to win an election by the rules. And yes, he is my Senator.

Madame Clinton lost any shred of decency when she lauded the Republican candidate as being better qualified than the Democratic candidate. You don't hand your opponent his campaign line for the rest of the season. "Why even the most experienced candidate in the Democratic field said it was either myself or Ms. Clinton; obviously the Democrats were swayed by emotion". What kind of lunatic party shoots itself in the foot like that?

Further how is she going to debate McCain on the war. I voted for the war. Gee, so did I. Well, I thought it was run incorrectly. Oh, so did I. Well, I thought the surge was the way to go, and its working as you can see from the fall off in death and destruction. Oh, I totally missed that point. Next?

[DemBones DemBones]

140. You're quick on the uptake. nt

[Missouri Blue]

132. Don't everybody panic. The problems of the Democrats aren't really problems.

We have a totally energized base, with enough votes to crush the Republicans and John McCain. We have two excellent candidates. We shouldn't worry when the third runner up was John Edwards! Look at what the Republicans had to work with, for goodness sake. Then there's Al Gore. If we play this right, we can have a quarter century of very good presidents.

Just make a pledge to vote for the winner. Remember that both Hillary Clinton and Barrack Obama will sign the same health care, the same education, the same Iraq bills that Congress will bring them. Both will do equally well reversing the Executive abuses of Bush. Don't be carried away by these two candidates huge egos. Listening to either one will make you think he and she are the only ones for the job.

The party leadership, Dean and the super-delegates, are going to have to mediate and come up with a deal between both candidates. This is really one time that party officials should step in. It's not hopeful that these two ambitious people are going to back off on their own, even if neither of them wants to destroy the party. They have to be brought to the negotiating table. They both have presidential size egos, they are not going to go there on their own.

[Divine Discontent]

142. dignity??? from HRC?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl::rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl::rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

my Mom is a perfect example - heavily inspired by Barack Obama, and so disgustingly enraged by the shocking building up of the illustrious John McCain by Hillary, that she will not vote for Hillary...

I'm over half way there, myself.

Keep it up Hill, we prefer to have our eventual nominee to be as bloodied as possible. :sarcasm: