You really think the Democratic Party establishment will rule the first black nominee unsuitable?

[mattclearing]

Hillary's only likely path to nomination at this point rests on this question.

And if it happens, we can probably kiss black America goodbye from politics for the foreseeable future.

That means forget victory in November, and the end of the Democratic coalition of the past forty years.

[tritsofme]

1. Hillary's path rests on winning the popular vote for the entire process.

If she leads that variable, I believe she has the strongest moral claim to the nomination.

[jgraz]

5. Yeah, nobody will mind that she's won fewer states and has fewer delegates.

BTW, she's likely to lose the overall popular vote as well, even though you know full well that it completely ignores the caucuses.

Maybe we need to move those goalposts just a bit more for you. How about we only count the closed primaries? Or the primaries in Democratic strongholds? Or maybe just the elections where Hillary came in first?

Seriously, how many criteria need to be bent or broken so Queen Hillary can have her coronation?

[Ravy]

70. Popular vote is a valid criteria, so is popular Democratic vote.

Also pledged delegates from the state or congressional district that the superdelegate represents.

National pledged delegates would be one of the weaker criteria to consider were I a superdelegate. My role in the process of superdelegate is to use my judgement to make the vote. If I just went for national pledged delegates, then superdelegates really have no role in the process. Politicians usually do not like to think of themselves as totally unnecessary to the process.

I am sure some of them will use the national pledged delegate count, but I don't think it will be that many.

[mattclearing]

73. A good point.

Although the open primary is a strong argument for the inclusiveness of the party, so I don't think it's wise to overrule non-Dem voters, it's a lesser version of the problem in my OP.

[Ravy]

78. Right. I agree about open primaries... but they are only part of the

equation. The nice thing about primaries and caucuses and whether they are open or closed really gives data about a candidate's appeal (popular vote) and organization (caucuses) in both the Democratic only arena (closed caucuses/primaries) and the open arena.


All are valid data that can, and should, be considered by the Superdelegates. That is *their* role in the process. They may use different criteria and weighting on that criteria, but they specifically aren't bound by one criteria (national pledged delegates) or they are totally irrevelant to the process.

[mattclearing]

81. That's the best argument I've heard for superdelegates yet.

How they weigh the Democratic Party vote, the mischief vote, the various caucuses which clearly aren't equally proportioned...that is a good argument for their involvement.

[jgraz]

84. How's about we only count delegates won through positive, issue-oriented campaigning?

That makes about as much sense as anything Hillary is proposing. If Hillary can only win by tearing down her fellow Democrat, then she is clearly the weaker candidate.

[Ravy]

87. Some superdelegates may, but they aren't bound by that criteria.

They aren't bound by any specific criteria. The goal was for them to consider all criteria that they consider valid and vote for the good of the party.

[aquart]

77. Yeah, who cares about HUGE industrial states.

Not Obama.

[mattclearing]

82. Yeah, that's why he sank some ridiculous amount of money into Ohio.

He outspent Hillary more than 2-1, even though he knew the odds were against him there. Clearly he wanted it.

[Emit]

6. Winning the Primary is all about the delegates

She'll need to have the delegates to win.

[tritsofme]

13. Neither candidate can win on pledged delegates alone.

There are not enough outstanding, the superdelegates will have to decide.

The superdelegates would be crazy not to at least consider the popular will of Democratic voters in their considerations.

[mattclearing]

55. That is exactly my point.

Overruling the popular vote would be Party suicide. Overruling the delegate count to honor the popular vote I can see.

[mattclearing]

43. That is a reasonable claim.

It disregards the rules, but it does honor one person, one vote, so that's fair.

[Capn Sunshine]

2. If Hillary can articulate a win, then YES, she'll do that

I'm quite sure the Clinton campaign is capable of this. Win at all costs and all that.

[jgraz]

10. Right after she sends out a photo of Obama snorting cocaine out of Bin Laden's butt crack

She'd have done it already, but they haven't quite got his skin to look dark enough.

[mattclearing]

52. That's pretty harsh.

Funny though. :)

[FrenchieCat]

3. Well, Hillary won't be the nominee......

because everyone can see, she's only winning voters that any Dem candidate always win.......and her winning Ohio in a Democratic doesn't mean anymore Jack Shit.
Winning Ohio now certainly doesn't mean that she will win it in the General....

Women are not going to vote for Nutcase Bomb Bomb Iran over Obama, so even that vote isn't Hillary's alone.....

However, Hillary is the one with the problem...because she's the one that "loses" voters, not Obama

She'll lose
a lot of The youth vote and the New voters
a lot of The pissed off AA votes
a lot of The Independent votes
a lot of The Men votes

and will get instead a lot of the Republicans voting against her.

What will we win with Hillary as the Nominee? Not a goddamn thing.....including downwind elections.

Obama can mitigate a lot of his "issues" (Namely racism) by running with a good well thought out VP pick.

Hillary can't mitigate her "issues"....because a lot of them have to do uniquely with Obama.

[Control-Z]

16. Don't you find it

the least bit odd that Hillary supporters will embrace the "Dem" nominee, whomever it is, but OB supporters will not embrace anyone other than OB himself? So, just who is the divisive candidate?

[FrenchieCat]

23. I believe that even Hillary believes that it is about Hillary and

winning.

That's what makes her divisive.

Obama can't help it if many of the voters that he brings to the table can't be forced to vote for Hillary.

Just like he can't help all of the Republicans that Hillary will bring out to vote against her. :shrug:

[lapfog_1]

48. you must be reading some other board than this one

because here you see threads like this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4833297

Be sure and count the number of Hillary supporters who state that they will write in her name if Obama is the nominee.

[mattclearing]

57. I'll embrace Hillary if she wins.

I'll be disgusted because I see what it took to get there, but she'll be much better than McCain, no doubt.

And where are your numbers? Where's your proof that more Obama people won't support the nominee?

Of Democrats who support him, it's a given. We will support her.

Of new voters who are only here for him, what do you expect? They don't owe Hillary anything.

[Control-Z]

97. BO has made that assumption. n/t

[Buve]

19. WHAT

Obama wins african americans and white democrats.... OLD DEM VOTERS

Clinton wins hispanics, NEW DEM VOTERS


What the hell are you talking about.

[oasis]

4. The Democratic Party will not be held hostage by race baiting Obamamites.

There are many leaders in the African American community who are equipped to soothe any hurt feelings.

Obama should be the first to do so.

[Emit]

7. Obama's still in the race, last I heard

[mattclearing]

68. And winning. n/t

[FrenchieCat]

8. Yeah.....like we get marching orders! It doesn't work that way at all!

Like I said, Hillary will lose in November if she's the nominee. The treasure trove of scandals fresh and new will not be hesitated in being used.

Hillary loses too many voters that would make the difference. When you include that along with the math, she's not looking all that.

[Buve]

20. Evidence

What polling data do you have to back up this claim.

If you can't, get out.

edit: removed bad joke.. sorry to offend

[FrenchieCat]

25. It's called looking at the demographics of who is voting for whom.

And stop with the dumb shit in reference to me personally. I'm not Hillary or Obama, which are the only folks that I am discussing. Grow the fuck up or get your ass out of here.

[Buve]

28. What?

I asked for data to back up your claim and humorously suggested that with out this data you might be overly influenced by your own 'bubble'

So, what data do you have to back this up?

[FrenchieCat]

32. No, what you did was to attempt to personally deride me....

So in actually, I don't have to give you shit at this point.

[Buve]

34. So it doesn't exist then.

You have no evidence to back up your GE claim.

It's ok.

[FrenchieCat]

38. I don't need to provide it to you......

but it's out there, and folks will be looking at that. Don't you worry about it.

[oasis]

22. "treasure trove of scandals". Gimme a break.

A new twist to the "Politics of Hope". You "hope" they can find something on Hillary.

[FrenchieCat]

29. I'm not into the politics of hope as long as we are running against

a fearmonger....which at the end of the day, is all that ever helps Hillary win.

Be afraid of that Black man! :scared:

Be afraid that he might, for all I know, be a Muslim! :scared:

Be afraid of his name! :scared:

Be afraid, lookit at what he was wearing in Kenya! :scared:

[Buve]

42. Baiting

Hillary suggested that Obama only has a speech to fill his national security creds. When he could change the war via his chairmanship he did not. This is fear mongering? These are facts.

LISTEN and WATCH the 60 min thing. It was a setup and she said "ABSOLUTLY NOT" to start the comment. I'm not surprised the Obama campaign (and the MSM) has drummed up a non-issue.

The repugs do the name thing... at least when you have a point where we can join you in denoucing the actions of the repugs bring us together.

You again have no EVIDENCE that the picture was put out by the Clinton camp. The only people who really seemed to care about the photo was the Obama people? huh?


Its been a rough day... grab a glass of wine and relax (us clinton supportors will grab a beer, its ok, we don't like wine anyway)

[mattclearing]

93. I didn't really buy into the photo thing, and it could easily just be a graphic designer's liberty.

The "as far as I know" thing was snarky, though.

[mirrera]

95. Uh wine vs. beer? Are you kidding???

I have been very civil through the primary wars, but that takes the cake for me. This is Bush all over again. BEER VS WINE???? OMG! Yeah lets all drink a beer with one candidate, thats how we'll choose the next President. can't have those WINE drinkers. OMG! You have really done it to me... I believe my bullshit meter just shorted out.

Beer vs. wine... yeah how'd that work for you.

!
!
!

[oasis]

46. Bottom line, on merit, Obama is not the best Democratic candidate.

It's easy to understand how folks can get emotionally invested in a particular candidate, but that alone doesn't make him/her the best person for the job.

This is the future of America we're talking about. Some feelings will get tread upon along the way, but there is so much more at stake.

[mattclearing]

92. That is your opinion.

Many of us, more of us, to date, even, respectfully disagree.

[jasmine621]

11. I simply do not believe that most blacks are that shallow in their thinking.

A lot of ignorant folks are. A lot of haters are.

[mattclearing]

88. If it came down to keeping McCain from starting WWIII, I'd hope not.

But I'd understand if the black voters that the Democratic Party has always been able to rely upon for support felt betrayed and rejected. They'd have every right if one of their own was overruled by the establishment, assuming he had the popular vote.

[JoFerret]

18. Black Obamaiams

are as varied as white Obamians.
They will be disappointed their chosen candidate lost but those with sense will support the nominee regardless of race. Clinton has traditionally had strong black support.And for good reason.

[redstate_democrat]

61. honestly

Do you believe that a majority of Black voters would cast a ballot for someone whom they believe has (a) stolen the nomination (b) disrespected their heritage by race baiting (c) denigrated and smeared the first serious Black contender for the U.S. Presidency? Remember, many of these voters lived through Jim Crow, they lived through King's assassination, remember Mississippi Burning, and Emmit Till, and Medgar Evers, the three little girls blown up in a church in Alabama, and all the millions of people who fought for Obama's opportunity today. If it is perceived that this election is hijacked, stolen, "set up", then forget about it. Many will view it as a slap in the face because Black voters have been the most loyal to the party. Many will start to wonder why this remains the case.

I'm just telling you the reality of the situation. This day had to come sooner or later. The party will show what it is made of.

[woolldog]

71. Really?

Is thatwhy blacks are voting 90-10 for Obama? lol

You're kidding yourself if you don't think a lot of blacks will be very unenthusiastic about a Clinton GE, enough that many will stay home or even vote McCain. Not so much in disappointment over Obama losing, but because HRC is largely perceived as having run a racist, race-baiting, bigoted campaign. (And this is before the darkening of Obama's picture in her ad came to light--I don't know how much press that has gotten to date)

If you think "black leaders" are going to smooth things over, you are very naive. These are the same black leaders that were lining up to support Clinton and whose endorsements were overwhelmingly repudiated by their constituents.

JMHO...

[mattclearing]

91. I suspect this would be bigger than her.

This would be the backstab that calls 40 years of reliable support for the party into question.

[nolabels]

21. So your default position is that Clinton folks are race baiting on purpose then?

My pink skin finds your excuse for reason very lacking x(

[oasis]

27. The OP is making the assumption that black folks will blame the Dem Party for

rejecting Obama. So we have to hand him the nomination or they'll flee the party.

Get it?

[mattclearing]

60. White folks, independents, the media, the Republicans. Everyone will draw that conclusion.

This is assuming that he has more votes, of course.

[nolabels]

96. This is my interpetation that some feel (as a SOP) it's okay to crap all over people then......

later come back to tell them that you still want to be their friend

Like what are friends for if you can't do things like that :shrug:

[David__77]

40. You're deluded.

There's no race baiting by Obama supporters. But if you think you're going to get Black leaders to carry water for going against the elected delegate lead of Obama, you're off base entirely. This would be a historical betrayal remembered for decades.

[mattclearing]

47. I'm not trying to race bait here. Trust me, if this happens, I'll be hiding for cover.

If the Democratic Party is perceived as overruling the popular vote and/or delegate count, that is a problem. It will tarnish the party. And it will prove once and for all that not all Democrats are created equal.

[woolldog]

9. I don't see how she wins the GE

When I tally up the states I think she'll win, I get Hillary 256 ....McCain 282

Hillary states:

CA, WA, NM, MN, IL, MI, OH, PA, NJ, NY, ME, DC, CT, RI, VT, MD

I think she loses WI, FL, MO

Play around with this interactive map (just click on the color you want the state to be first, then click on the state): http://www.pbs.org/newshour/vote2004/politics101/politics101_ecmap.html

[Buve]

26. With Hillary

OH, NV, MT, CO, VA and most importantly AR are in play

With McCain VA will be hard, AZ is gone and maybe NM with it.


From 2004
LOSE: WI(which i don't actually think will happen) & NM
WIN: AR, OH


Dems win! Dems win!

[woolldog]

31. thanks for answering!

I had forgotten about Arkansas. But I would be extremely surpised if she took NV, CO, and VA. On what basis do you say those states would be in play? She's losing to McCain in all of those. Same for Wisconsin.

Did you play with the map in the link I posted? It's handy isn't it?

[Buve]

44. map

yeah, i love it.


I call NV, CO and VA based on rapidly changing demographics. NV more than any state in the union.


BUT, all you need is OH and AR, given a loss of WI.

[mattclearing]

94. I don't see Hillary winning Virginia.

When the Clintons were in office, Virginia was red. I don't think the people have changed that much, but the way Dems campaign there sure has.

Hillary doesn't take rural voters as seriously as Obama, Dean, Kaine, Warner, etc. do. I think she loses there, especially against McCain, who many Virginian Dems actually don't mind so much. I know, I've had to yell at people in my family about what a nutcase he is. With Democrats like these...

[Lyric]

12. You do a grave disservice to black people with this kind of rhetoric.

It's asinine to think that black Obama supporters aren't capable of conquering their disappointment and supporting the Democratic Party in November. Unlike many of the more hyperbolic supporters of both candidates on DU, the vast majority of black people are intelligent, reasonable folks who are NOT going to bolt the party and either vote for the GOP or stay home if Obama doesn't win the primary.

I understand that you're concerned about party division, but you shouldn't single out black voters like this. It just sets them up as a group to be "blamed" if we lose the General election, and that's flat-out wrong.

[Skittles]

14. correct

well-said :thumbsup:

[mattclearing]

63. Someone needs to say it now, because if the superdelegates overrule the popular vote

EVERYONE will say it. Edit: And they'll be right.

[Skittles]

74. all it will tell me is

the delegate system SUCKS

[mattclearing]

76. Well, that too. But the fact that the Party ruling class overruled the people is what will play.

The race side of it is a problem as well, since African Americans have delivered for this party consistently for the past forty years. When it comes to put up or shut up time, and we overrule the voters to install the white candidate, I won't blame them for being angry.

But race issue aside, it's still wrong to overrule the popular vote. That's why we're the Democratic Party.

[FrenchieCat]

17. It's not about "disappointment"....it's about being treated like dirt

and told that their votes don't even count. Mark my word, it ain't about what you think it is about, and it won't be about "getting over it".

The thing about Black Folks is they have always been low on the totem poll no matter who's in office. Many will say, I don't give a damn and continue to ride it out. When you are dealing with folks with little to lose, it ain't about being "disappointed".

Nobody's stupid now, in particular Black folks.
They've seen it all.

[MonkeyFunk]

36. And yet you guys

are adamant about telling Florida and Michigan voters that their votes don't count.

[mattclearing]

64. No, we're adamant about having an uncontested election not count.

We're more than happy to contest those states again. But we don't want Hillary to change the rules and claim delegates she didn't earn.

[Lyric]

37. As a member of a family made up of about 5 different types of minorities, I understand that.

I know how it feels to be told that, in the end, you'll vote for the Dem nominee no matter who it is, 'cause who else are you gonna vote for? It hurts like hell. It's like having somebody come right out and tell you that in the grand scheme of things, neither you nor your concerns really matter. But I think that in the end, common devotion to giving the Dems a shot to fix the hell that Bush created of America will win out.

What I would like to see happen is one of the two following scenarios:

Clinton wins and picks a liberal black VP
Obama wins and picks a liberal female VP

Either of those two theoretical tickets would have my vote, and the votes of my family, in a heartbeat. We're all kind of divided right now, with half of us supporting Hillary and half supporting Barack, but tickets like those would go a long way toward fixing those divisions. If it can work for a family as diverse and politically passionate as mine, it could work for the nation (and the party) as well.

Even when we struggle amidst ourselves, hope remains. :hi:

[mattclearing]

67. I like your tickets.

It would be nice to have a liberal VP in a Clinton administration, even if it's reasonable to assume they'd take second fiddle to Bill.

[redstate_democrat]

39. Thank you.

I keep trying to tell people. Can you believe someone said that they will just get the Black leaders to "smooth things over" with the "Black community"? This is laughable. If this thing turns out the way I fear it will, then we may be looking at a cataclysmic shift. I hate to say it, but this is pretty serious around my way.

[FrenchieCat]

51. Kinda of like how Democrats were voting for Republicans until FDR......

Folks need to brush up on their history...to realize that like the Hispanic vote can flip on a dime, it is not the only one.

Just like that Brown people don't vote for Black people bullshit coming out of Hillary and her gang and then the media. That shit is not going to be forgotten or "Gotten over".

[redstate_democrat]

66. Exactly.

You know sometimes I think some of our fellow Democrats just really don't understand what's going on right now. I mean, this isn't just some regular election for Black people. I could say a lot right now but I will hold my peace. This party has its nerve at times.

We SHALL see what it's made of.

[mattclearing]

83. My point exactly. n/t

[woolldog]

24. You don't get it.

The way that Hillary has treated Barack has turned off a lot of black voters who'd otherwise be inclined to vote for the Democrat in the GE.

[Buve]

33. The way Barack has treated Hillary

the other shoe also fits, but only one canidate has turned it into a political issue...

~"I can get her votes, but I don't know if she can get mine" - Obama

Who is trying to spit up and destroy the party again?

[woolldog]

45. He's run a honorable campaign.

I don't believe she has.

[mattclearing]

85. That's just a statement of fact.

Like I said elsewhere, it's a given that Democrats who favor Obama will fall in line for Hillary. I will, we all will.

But independents who are here only for Obama? They may not even like Hillary, and they certainly don't owe her or us their support.

[mattclearing]

41. It's going to get said if it happens, so we should at least know it in advance.

Black people will say it, white people like me will say it, and God knows the freaking Republicans will say it.

If the Democratic Superdelegates overrule an Obama lead in pledged delegates, it will be a disaster. That's pretty much assured.

And I do my best to respect all of my Democratic brethren, even here in GD-P, where it's difficult. I understand the tolerance of every Democratic voter, after 8 years of Bush, the disenfranchisement, the complete disregard for our Constitution and our principles.

If it happens, people will say the Democratic Party isn't Democratic. And they'll have a point.

[Buve]

15. Delegates as the measuring stick

As long as some states get delegates for 1000 votes and others take 25000 to get the same delegate...
As long as winning a states popular vote means getting less delegates...
As long as primaries have different results as caucuses held on the same day...

The system will have ZERO probablity of surviving public scrutiny and the only bar that is deemed 'fair' will be popular vote.

[mattclearing]

49. Like I said above, the popular vote is a fair argument.

If Hillary leads in the popular vote, even if she has to smear Obama to hell to get there, I'll respect that, and surely that will help her with the superdelegates.

[LulaMay]

30. It isn't ruling him unsuitable if she gets the nomination. Would it be ruling her unsuitable

NO. Why does he deserve more empathy if he loses than if she does? Because he's had a narrow delegate lead? Because of the media hype? Because of the loud fanaticism of some of his supporters? Because Ted Kennedy said so?

Give me a break.

You think women wouldn't be just as disappointed? Hillary has done very, very well in this race too. He has a slight delegate lead, she has won key states important to a GE.

But, it appears some feel we, women, don't count.

[FrenchieCat]

35. Well, I'm a woman who voted for Obama......

and there are many of us out there.

Women who try to gain an office through the coatails of their husband's name and husband's accomplishments (except the accomplishments that they don't want to claim) shouldn't count, if you asked me. I never did respect Mrs. Bono very much either, come to think of it.

[woolldog]

56. Didn't Paul Tsonga's wife

do the same thing. She got his seat in Congress didn't she? And also that widow of the Missouri congressman?

I prefer self-made men/women when it comes to politics.

[mattclearing]

72. Jean Carnahan.

If people can't have the person they had, who better to take over for them than the person that knows them best? I think that's fair.

That doesn't really apply to this race, because Bill is alive and Hillary is distinguishing herself from him on some points, less so on others.

[mattclearing]

50. Because more people voted for him. n/t

[Buve]

53. popular vote

If at the end of the day he has pledged delegates and popular vote... he wins. Period, IMO.


I think Hillary stays in to see if she can wrest away popular vote or get a redo in FL or MI.

[mattclearing]

58. And that is fair.

And the hope that he'll get scandaled. That's the other option.

But yeah, if she has more votes, that's a good reason to take it to the convention. Haven't done the math, but I suspect she's not there yet.

[JTFrog]

54. Fuck Hillary. Fuck her and every fucking lobbyist she's rode in on.

:rant:

That DINO runs around swiftboating democrats and praising her fucking republican friends and threatening to sue the fucking party if she can't manipulate everything her fucking way. Fuck Hillary. Fuck Bill. Fuck the narcissistic fuckers who can't see past their own fucking egos and fears of being uncovered by a real democratic president. Fuck their not so secret little love affair with the Bushes. Fuck their neo-con enabling records.

And fuck this place. I'm so sick and tired of coming in here and seeing people who call themselves democrats support and encourage this shit.

God forbid we should have a residing figure that would offer hope and unity instead of some fucking xeroxed republican trying to spread the fear and doom plague.

George Carlin said it best: Fuck the Fucking Fuckers.

:rant:

*edit spelling - and no I didn't misspell Fuck.

[Buve]

59. need a hug?

nameste my amphibian brother.

[mattclearing]

62. Tell us how you really feel.

I feel your pain. I really do.

[mtnester]

65. As opposed to ruling the first woman candidate unsuitable you mean?

I don't think race or gender is on the checkoff sheet.

[mattclearing]

69. My post assumed that Obama goes to the convention with the popular vote.

I didn't actually say it though, but with that in mind, that is my concern.

[mtnester]

80. So, if he does not, and HRC goes in with the popular vote

it could then be a concern that the first woman candidate be ruled out?

[mattclearing]

86. My original point was that it's party suicide to overrule the voters.

I suppose taking the black angle was inflammatory, but it's only fair, because if it happened, it would be inflammatory.

If it happened the other way around, it would be no less wrong, agreed.

[mtnester]

89. Thank you n/t

[aquart]

75. Not when they can use him to ignore a woman candidate.

And how nice of you to speak for the American black population. Have you their proxy? Their permission to paint them as spoiled, petulant brats with no knowledge or understanding of politics and the necessities of compromise? Because I would consider such a portrait untruthful and racist.

And it would shock you how many black women see right thru Obama. It did me.

So maybe you should talk for yourself and not stigmatize whole peoples with your denigrating speculation.

[mattclearing]

79. Nice personal attack.

I'm not speaking for anyone. If you read the thread, you'll see that I was assuming that Obama has the popular vote when the Convention happens. If Hillary has the popular vote, I'm all for the superdelegates deciding in her favor.

My point is that if the superdelegates overrule the people, it will destroy the party. I suppose the race issue is secondary to that, but it makes it even worse.

[redstate_democrat]

90. So basically what you're saying is that if

Black people don't roll over and cast a vote for someone they believe has "stolen" an election, smeared Obama as some sort of terrorist, AND race baited, then they are "spoiled, petulant brats with no knowledge or understanding of politics and the necessities of compromise"? I really don't think many will give a hot fuck about "understanding" politics and the "necessities of compromise" when an entire party has bitch slapped them as would be the case in this sort of scenario (Obama goes to convention with delegate lead, popular vote, yet leaves without the nomination). What would be the compromise? What would be the prize? People don't vote for business as usual.