Thank You Charlie Crist!

[Ivote]

Seat The Florida Delegates

[jlake]

1. Thank you Granholm & Crist! Seat them now! They will not be silenced!

[monmouth]

6. Just so you know it's "Crist." Jesus H. gave up on us ages ago..lol..n/t

[jlake]

15. lol! Thank you

[KaryninMiami]

9. We cannot be seated until we have voted and we have not yet voted-

at least not in a legitimate primary where we are advised that the votes will be counted. Seating them now will cause irreperable damage to the party. YOU DON'T CHANGE THE RULES AFTER THE GAME IS PLAYED.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

12. Thank you. That apparently needs to be said.

It is sad that this cannot be grasped by many here at DU .

[KaryninMiami]

57. I know and it makes me CRAZY. See link to letter that explains it all perfectly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4807226

SNIP

The rules governing the date(s) of our primary are in writing and very clearly written. It is so easy to place blame on Howard Dean, the head of our National Party, but why? Governor Dean has followed the rules to the letter and that is as it should be. When the Republican dominated State Legislature overwhelmingly voted to change/move up the primary date, our Florida State Chairwoman, Karen Thurman, was offered financial assistance by Governor Dean so that the Democrats could hold a caucus and thereby escape any penalties. This offer of assistance was turned down by our state party leader(s). Why? This would have left all our delegates intact and eligible to cast their votes at the Convention.

For many months, at many events she attended, Karen Thurman spoke of Hillary Clinton as our “next President”, a clear violation of the bylaws which state that we may not promote one candidate over another prior to the selection of our party’s nominee. At the State Convention, Rep. Debbie Wasserman-Shultz announced from the platform, “..our next President, Hillary Rodham Clinton” much to the dismay of many attendees who were supporting other candidates. Literally a hundred or more signs for Hillary went up around the room….thought the candidates had agreed not to campaign in Florida (I was turned down by Edwards campaign staff when I attempted to pay for signs for John Edwards because they said it would violate the “no campaigning” agreement). Yet here was definite campaigning for Hillary at our State Convention. Is she a woman of her word or not?

The result of all this, including the so fortunate fundraiser for Clinton held in Florida on Primary Day, was that most of our citizens knew little about the other candidates and the Clinton name recognition just about guaranteed a win for Hillary, which I personally believe, was the intent of our State Chairwoman who has consistently promoted ONLY Beltway insiders as opposed to Progressive Democrats seeking to take back our country from the corrupt administration under which we have suffered for seven long, long years.

SNIP

[flyarm]

28. then there can be no legitimate way..because Edwards was on the ballot and a viable candidate

at the time..and i was pledged to be a delegate for him..he still has viable delegates.

and the election for delegates was held last Saturday ..at least in my county the election was as i believe it was state wide..you are going to have some very pissed off elected delegates if there is a re-do
and there would need to be a new delegate election to take place..the dem party does not have the $$$ for that.

and the only candidate who broke his pledge to not run commercials in the State of Florida was Obama..his commercials were running in my county the whole week before the election on cable news shows..he may have had permission from SC dem..but he broke his pledge none the less..and no other candidate did.

He was also the "first candidate " to come into Florida to say he would seat the delegates if he was the nominee..before the ink was dry on the pledge he took..he also did a presser...

i know it was where i live..maybe others don't know..but the people in three counties around where i am sure as hell know!


*and remember where he did this sneaky, backhanded stuff.... Tampa... is the headquarters for this fucking war..people here pay attention..

this has been distributed to most dems here via internet..as a reminder..that is how i found out..

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/30/obama-vows-do-whats-right/?news-breaking

Barack Obama held an impromptu news conference after a Tampa fundraiser Sunday.


By WILLIAM MARCH and ELAINE SILVESTRINI The Tampa Tribune

Published: September 30, 2007



TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it

Obama also appeared to violate a pledge he and the other leading candidates took by holding a brief news conference outside the fundraiser. That was less than a day after the pledge took effect Saturday, and Obama is the first Democratic presidential candidate to visit Florida since then.Obama and others have pledged not to campaign in Florida until the Jan. 29 primary except for fund raising, which is what he was doing in Tampa.

But after the fundraiser at the Hyde Park home of Tom and Linda Scarritt, Obama crossed the street to take half a dozen questions from reporters waiting there.

The pledge covers anything referred to in Democratic National Committee rules as "campaigning," and those include "holding news conferences.

Obama seemed unaware the pledge he signed prohibits news conferences. Asked whether he was violating it, he said, "I was just doing you guys a favor. … If that's the case, then we won't do it again."

[seabeyond]

32. please explain

what is going on with this. i have stayed out of this whole messy primary and walked in two days ago seeing a lot of things i do not like. also a lot of things i dont know what is happening. as short as you can, huh?

[KaryninMiami]

60. We were told that our votes would not count- the DNC Stripped them from us. See link for whole story

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[joshcryer]

127. So you didn't vote in the primaries?

[jefferson_dem]

50. I agree. Seat them!

Just don't grant them authority to determine the Party's nominee, as per the rules everyone agreed to.

[MadBadger]

2. They wont be seated

If they are, Howard Dean should be fired. And I like Howard Dean and I'm sure he wont seat them.

If the delegates are seated in Michigan and Florida and put Hillary over the top, you can probably count a lot of Obama people out.

[jlake]

4. They will be seated and Howard Dean will be fired.... sounds like a plan to me!

[Sulawesi]

A putsch! great idea

[JackORoses]

14. can't you see you have built your entire belief around MI and FL?

It's really going to hurt when you finally accept that they don't count.

Then you'll see what everybody else does. This contest is over.

[jlake]

19. Can't you see that Obama's only chance of protecting his lead is to

disenfranchise 2 very important states?

[JackORoses]

61. Hillary's only chance is to void the rules that this contest is based on.

That is called cheating.
There are no Delegates awarded to FL and MI because of a real rule that both willingly chose to break.
Because of this, any results of these contest are wholly flawed.

Your cries of disenfranchisement will not work. Everyone can see them for what they are.
The desperate attempts of a losing campaign...

These States will not be used to determine a Nominee.

[seabeyond]

80. bush broke rules. took convention to sept. no one said anything. florida decides not

break the rules. dean offers to pay to so dems wont be hurt. hillary now wants rules ignored. and it seems that both florida and michigan didnt have things set up for a fair vote.

and people are pissed at obama and dean

i dont follow the logic

[seabeyond]

78. that is stupid. people made decisions knowing ahead of time. stupid to blame obama. n.t

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jlake]

122. Vile & Sexist hatred spews forth from you.

Yes, he is fighting to keep them disenfranchised.

[elixir]

43. I'm with you, he totally mishandled this situation. He may not be responsible for it, but, he's

responsible for getting this primary season completed w. all delegates.

[seabeyond]

79. he offered to pay so they didnt end up in this mess. he told them it wouldnt

count. there were rules that were broke. please tell me how it is deans fault.

[anigbrowl]

8. They're not enough to put her over the top anyway

we could add their #s back into the contest now and she'd still be down 50 delegates or so. that's why the Obama campaign hasn't been responding to the Clinton campaigns attempts to bait them over the issue.

[MadBadger]

34. Obama doesnt automatically get those uncommitted votes.

[snappyturtle]

27. I agree with you. Fl made a mistake by having repukes in charge

in the first place. It's a shame but.............

[MadBadger]

35. talk to madfloridian, she'll set you straight on this talking point.

[snappyturtle]

72. Believe me I've read her point of view. I don't agree. eom n/t

[PassingFair]

87. You don't get to disagree with facts.

Opinions are a different matter.

[seabeyond]

89. another republican ploy. call facts opinions ergo they can simply disagree. n/t

[snappyturtle]

111. I like to play by the rules. eom n/t

[Lucinda]

30. I'm not sure Obama wont support this.

If he picks up the uncommitted MI delegates and the ones he won in FLA he might actually do better than if they hold new elections. There isnt a huge gap in what Hillary would gain from the two states.

I think he'll support whichever he thinks will be the best option.

However it goes, we need to work it out and not piss off two big states before the GE.

[AZ Criminal JD]

90. So the Obama people are going to be "out" as you put it if he doesn't win.

Sounds like cult followers rather than party members.

[MadBadger]

94. Say hello to ignore

[book_worm]

3. Of course the GOP wants Hillary to run against.

[jlake]

5. Ms. Granholm is GOP now?

[SteppingRazor]

7. You do realize that Crist is just trying to make the Democratic primary ...

as drawn-out and bloody as possible, right?

[monmouth]

13. He also wants to be seen as the "centrist" gov. Many dems are

favorable towards him...

[SteppingRazor]

22. Hey, count me as one of them, for the most part.

He's about the best Republican I can think of (of course, that won't stop me from voting against him). But this isn't about policy, this is about politics. And Crist may be a lot of things, some of them occasionally good things, but he is, at the end of the day, a committed Republican.

[maddezmom]

10. from The Swamp: Fla. and Mich. guvs: Seat our delegates

Fla. and Mich. guvs: Seat our delegates
by Frank James

Forget the fact that the state legislatures in both Michigan and Florida were forewarned that if they moved up their states' primary dates their states would be penalized by the Democratic and Republican National Committees. The governors of both states are demanding that the delegates from both states' primaries earlier this year be seated at the respective party conventions this summer.

Florida Gov. Charlie Crist, a Republican, and Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm, a Democrat, issued the following statement:


Florida and Michigan Governors to DNC and RNC:
Don’t Silence 5,163,271 Americans

TALLAHASSEE- Florida Governor Charlie Crist and Michigan Governor Jennifer M. Granholm released a joint statement today calling on the Democratic and Republican National Committees with a very clear message: Seat our delegates.

Joint Statement from Florida Governor Charlie Crist and Michigan Governor Jennifer M. Granholm.

“The right to vote is at the very foundation of our democracy. This primary season, voters have turned out in record numbers to exercise that right, and it is reprehensible that anyone would seek to silence the voices of 5,163,271 Americans. It is intolerable that the national political parties have denied the citizens of Michigan and Florida their votes and voices at their respective national conventions.

more:http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/2008/03/fla_and_mich_guvs_seat_our_del.html

[Maddy McCall]

18. Wow. Thanks for posting that.

[anigbrowl]

25. God...hypocrite central

I don't especially object to the delegates being seated...but I'd like to see the state party chairs go on TV to apologize to their voters while dressed in clown suits.

[seabeyond]

38. so they dont follow the rules, ..... do it wrong knowingly and then suggest it is

eeping others votes from counting. look i am not a rule follower, and i dont care if they count them or not.... but this is NOT obama or deans doing for sure and the fool that suggests it is.

[truebrit71]

64. Message to those two governors...hold legitimate primaries and they will be seated...

...otherwise go pound sand...

[PassingFair]

97. From the DNC to Governors Crist and Granholm:

[ananda]

11. They need to have another vote..

This is something Dean said he could agree to.

[Shakespeare]

75. This really the only fair solution.

And there's plenty of time to have a re-vote.

[CyberPieHole]

16. I agree. In both Florida and Michigan, I say the Delegates should be seated...

Hillary Clinton won both states. Seat the delegates. Don't dis~enfranchise the voters.

[jsmirman]

70. You really should be embarrassed that you've come to this

You KNOW that would be completely unfair and a total perversion of the process.

But you're so desperate to win that you are praying that this happens.

So what you're endorsing is that every state party should do whatever they please, all the states can race to be among the first primaries and our process can be even more of a cluster**** than it already is?

There has to be a bar to this happen. That bar is the right of the central committee to penalize state parties acting without regard for agreed upon practices. The penalties were clearly laid out.

But because you're hoping for an overall outcome, you endorse cutting the knees out of any sort of responsibility and overall party cooperation.

This is VILE, VILE politics. Disgusting.

It is "whatever it takes to win"- the same sort of reasoning that leads Republicans to sleep well at night despite the disgraceful things they do to the franchise every even November.

It sounds like some Obama supporters around here are willing to race to the bottom of the barrel and I missed it because I wasn't around to see it. But what I've seen from Hillary supporters in these last 24 hours- I'm appalled.

[seabeyond]

88. i have not been paying attention.. was letting it all play out. came in two days ago

i am just SHockED shOCKed SHOCKED i tell you on what i am hearing from hillary supports and what i have watched hillary do last couple days and her supporters saying, .... it is all cool. i feel like i am in 2004 election and the busco/rove crowd again with all the republican voters excusing their behavior

[jsmirman]

106. I'd be open to hearing what dissembling Obama supporters are accused of

but I'd have to agree, the behavior of the Hillary supporters is starting to remind me to a frightening extent of past Republican prevarications.

[CyberPieHole]

114. Thanks for your concern.

:hi:

[jsmirman]

115. Well, I can tell you that I'm embarrassed on your behalf

if you are truly a Democrat of voting age, I am embarrassed to share a party with you.

Your response is impressively substantive, btw.

:dunce:

[CyberPieHole]

119. And YOU are something to make the corn grow...

I'm not sharing a party or anything else with you, so don't flatter yourself.

And your post is something for the ages.

:hi:

[jsmirman]

120. Pathetic

rhetoric, nastiness, and BS. Very impressive.

I've resisted the temptation to slam you with the obvious insult.

[CyberPieHole]

121. back at cha! n/t

[seabeyond]

86. understand one state didnt have all the candidates and one state only hillary got to campaign

per some lady who wasnt suppose to but she was the boss....

and that is a win to you

bah hahahhaa

now that i am learning what this is all about, i am just flabberghasted that clinton supporters expect to be taken seriously

what am i missing?

[CyberPieHole]

116. Clinton didn't campaign in EITHER of those states...Obama did campaign in Florida...

which skirted the rules...but, still he LOST in Florida. In Michigan, Obama stupidly removed his name from the nomination, so only Clinton and Kucinich's names remained...no one forced Obama to remove his name, he did so of his own accord. Clinton won Michigan. So, perhaps if you read up on the matter you wouldn't be "flabberghasted" (whatever that means, though perhaps you meant to write, flabbergasted?)


THAT'S what you're missing.:hi:

[seabeyond]

118. i am hearing contradictive info. hillary had campaiging and michigan

had been told they wouldnt count as did florida so obama and the others were making their decision off the information given them. you fault them for making a decision with the information at hand?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

SNIP

The rules governing the date(s) of our primary are in writing and very clearly written. It is so easy to place blame on Howard Dean, the head of our National Party, but why? Governor Dean has followed the rules to the letter and that is as it should be. When the Republican dominated State Legislature overwhelmingly voted to change/move up the primary date, our Florida State Chairwoman, Karen Thurman, was offered financial assistance by Governor Dean so that the Democrats could hold a caucus and thereby escape any penalties. This offer of assistance was turned down by our state party leader(s). Why? This would have left all our delegates intact and eligible to cast their votes at the Convention.

For many months, at many events she attended, Karen Thurman spoke of Hillary Clinton as our “next President”, a clear violation of the bylaws which state that we may not promote one candidate over another prior to the selection of our party’s nominee. At the State Convention, Rep. Debbie Wasserman-Shultz announced from the platform, “..our next President, Hillary Rodham Clinton” much to the dismay of many attendees who were supporting other candidates. Literally a hundred or more signs for Hillary went up around the room….thought the candidates had agreed not to campaign in Florida (I was turned down by Edwards campaign staff when I attempted to pay for signs for John Edwards because they said it would violate the “no campaigning” agreement). Yet here was definite campaigning for Hillary at our State Convention. Is she a woman of her word or not?

The result of all this, including the so fortunate fundraiser for Clinton held in Florida on Primary Day, was that most of our citizens knew little about the other candidates and the Clinton name recognition just about guaranteed a win for Hillary, which I personally believe, was the intent of our State Chairwoman who has consistently promoted ONLY Beltway insiders as opposed to Progressive Democrats seeking to take back our country from the corrupt administration under which we have suffered for seven long, long years.

SNIP

[Justitia]

17. Yeah, because its the REPUBLICAN that has our best interests at heart. -eom

[eissa]

20. This is beyond unethical

How on earth can you seat delegates when in at least one primary (MI) you didn't even have the names of all the candidates listed?! This is completely unfair, especially after ALL candidates agreed to abide by the DNC's stance to ignore those states that pushed up their primaries. Do-over or nothing.

[Justitia]

21. Rules don't apply to Republicans, only the rest of us. -eom

[Ivote]

26. We are being disenfranchised & That's Not Why I Am A Democrat

Florida and Michigan Governors to DNC and RNC:
Don’t Silence 5,163,271 Americans

[eissa]

29. I agree, BUT

of course the voices of our dems in those states MUST be heard. But when EVERYONE agreed to abide by the ruling of the DNC, and the names of certain candidates were left off the ballot, to seat those delegates also disenfranchises many voters. A do-over in June -- no changing the rules in the middle of the game.

[Cha]

37. Talk to the fucking officials in Florida then..

they're the ones who made the power play.

[seabeyond]

42. but it is whose fault. you may not like it. i dont like that i have perry....

i dont like that i couldnt vote for any local republican races yesterday because i wanted to vote in dem primary and in this area it is only republicans running locally. but there are rules. i knew i would have to make a choice and lose out somewhere. some fucked you all but it wasnt hillary, obama or dean

let me say though, i dont care if it goes thru either

[seabeyond]

40. didn't even have the names of all the candidates listed?! YA... what about that n/t

[snappyturtle]

23. I was hoping that after last night's wins for HRC they would play

by the rules. Play by the rules=no harm to either candidate. Fl and MI are just going to have to be happy to vote in the GE. imho

edit: I heard that had FL left things alone they would have voted yesterday. Kind of ironic, don't you think?

[napi21]

24. Whay is he doing that? He's a Pub! I hate to look a gift horse and all that,

but I can't help questioning his motives!

[snappyturtle]

31. Maybe to cause dissension in the Democratic party? Just a guess.

:sarcasm:

[Lucinda]

33. He's being the good guy for his state. He's a pretty popular Gov

and I assume he wants to stay that way.

[napi21]

36. Iknow he's popular, but what does it get him by helping out the Dems?

I know I'm very prejudiced, but I've nev (let alone a Pub one) to do something favorable for someone unless it benefitted him somehow!

[Lucinda]

44. 1.6 (ish) million Dem voters already voted. The state doesn't want

tax payers to pay for a second election. She he's advocating the delegates be seated. Seems like a smart move on his part...unless someone else pays for the election.

[napi21]

73. The problem I see with seating them, and I assume that means counting

their votes, is that in future years we'll have even MORE idiot States trying to have THEIR primaries FIRST, and we'll be having primary votes before THANKSGIVING! There has to be SOME punishment for both States trying to be renegades and breaking the agreed upon rules.

[Lucinda]

76. I do totally understand that point. But when I weigh it against the damage

that not seating the delegates might do, seating them wins out, for me anyway.

Someone recommended stripping their super delegate votes. That seems a bit weak, punnishment wise, but appropriate, since it was the state party that caused the problems in both cases.

[seabeyond]

84. no. i am sorry. but rules were clear. people knew what was up

i am not getting how people are blaming obama and dean for the people responsible for this mess. they are the last people connected to this crap and dean tried to stop yawl from the mess.

[Lucinda]

92. I've never blamed anyone but the two state parties. But I do think it's stupid

to let this drag on. We'll have to agree to disagree on this. :)

[seabeyond]

98. was the primary fair to all. i am curious. n/t

[Lucinda]

105. Michigan? No. But Conyers did what he could to protect the process

by pushing the Uncommitted vote on Obamas/Edwards behalf.

Florida? Obama is the only one who ran ads, so not ideal. But they were all on the ballot.

The media reaches both Michigan and Florida, so the assumption that voters were not aware of the candidates, after all the debates and other MSM saturation, falls flat with me.

The two states should never tried to play chicken with the party.
It needs to be fixed.

[seabeyond]

110. if michigan is a flat no. then it is a flat no one the vote. florida you didnt

give a flat out no..... but still there was explanation to problems.

look. you did not decide this. i would be soooooo pissed if my vote didnt count. but yawl knew it wouldnt.

personally i dont care hillary gets them or not. but just seems wrong. very basis of wrong to count the vote.

it does need to be fixed. they shouldnt have played a game. was stupid.

sorry

but i think it is beyond contempt to have this outrageously messed up situation and use it to attack obama and dean. neither of them are responsible for this mess.

[seabeyond]

82. but didnt they all know when they were voting their vote was going to count. didnt

that piss everyone off?

[tridim]

48. AKA "CYA"

I don't blame him for it though, but the reality is that he just wants to get reelected.

[seabeyond]

81. if he was a good guy the state wouldnt be in this mess. he created it. n/t

[Eurobabe]

39. FL, MI: Tell your parties to play by the rules!

The only reason CRIST wants this is so Clinton can be put over the top and they run against Hillary. What a FUCKING JOKE.

[Medusa]

41. Of course he wants the Democratic delegates seated

he wants Hillary to be the nominee so John McCain can kick her ass in the GE. He's also been rumored to be a possible VP candidate for McCain.

[AllexxisF1]

51. Sssssssshhhhhhhhh......

Don't tell Hillary supporters that.

They think she still somehow has a mathematical chance and that a Republican Governor (WHO WOULD SUCK MCCAIN'S DICK IN A SECOND TO BE VP) is doing this for the betterment of voters everywhere.


Hillary supporters really need to wake the fuck up.


...and I live in Florida.

[Vinca]

45. In Michigan, in particular, how is this fair since there were so many

other candidates in the race whose names were not on the ballot? Michigan might have been a springboard for John Edwards (which, at this point, would have been a very good thing). The state parties agreed to this idiot scheme long, long ago and are only now crying foul. It isn't fair to most of the candidates and very biased in favor of one candidate. The only way to do more damage to the party than has already been done is to seat the delegates from these 2 states based on the early primaries they had. It'll make for a whole lot of new Independent voters . . . me included.

[seabeyond]

85. i see the people wanting hte votes arent answering. they break the rules. they know

there votes wont count. they have a fake/incompetent primary and NOW they want it to count. i am not getting it. and to blame bama and dean is stupid. blame it on the dumbshits that made these decisions.

[JimGinPA]

46. They'll Be Seated - As Soon As Obama Secures The Nomination

B-)

[MadBadger]

47. If delegates are to be counted in Florida and Michigan, there needs to be another election

We have turned out more people in our primaries in every state except Michigan and Florida. Gee, I wonder why. If these delegates are counted, those who didnt vote in these beauty contests will be disenfranchised as well.

[Maribelle]

52. The Democratic vote in Florida for the Presidential Preference Primary shattered all records.

And so did the number of votes Hillary received.

[Maribelle]

49. CNN reported live from Miami a while ago that there is the possibility ...

The Florida Legislature, which just opened its new session, wants to pass a law saying if you don't seat our delegates you cannot put your nominee's name on the ballot for the General Election in November.

If anyone finds a link for this news story before I do, please feel free to post it.

[yourguide]

54. Oh screw THEM.

Florida screwed this up and royally...and now they want these seated when there was no campaigning there? Give me a flipping break.

[Texas Hill Country]

55. WOW... That is seriously hardcore.

[progressoid]

59. Sounds good to me.

Sorry, but your state has kinda fu**** up in recent elections. It would take a lot of pressure off if we knew up front that we wouldn't have to worry about some weird election snafu gumming up the works again.

[truebrit71]

63. That is unconstitutional and will not a) pass and b) stand

...

[Texas Hill Country]

77. Cite please...

because there isnt one.

[truebrit71]

83. FL legislature doesn't get to dictate what goes on a Federal Ballot...

..

[Texas Hill Country]

95. IIRC the states are the ones that run the elections and print the ballots...

[truebrit71]

101. But they cannot dictate who stands for a FEDERAL election...

..they can dick around with their state to their hearts content, but not when it comes to a federal position...

[Texas Hill Country]

109. you might be right, but cite me the law.

It certainly isnt unconstitutional... IIRC from my Con Law classes that is :-)

[flyarm]

53. Fl is being punished because we put up a bill for voting machines with verification of our vote..

this bill was put up to rid the state of florida of DRE voting machines and to get voting machines where audits were possible.

the republicans who control our legislature tagged on the change date of the primaries..they knew damn well what they were doing..all but one dem signed the bill..can you imagine any dem not signing it to rid this state of DRE machines..especially after Sarasota had 18,000 votes dissapear..they would have lost their seats ..asap..

so essentially the repukes knew damn well what they were doing tagging the primary change date onto the bill..too damn bad our dem party leaders in Washington and here in fla were late to the damn dance when so many people..regular people paid for ..out of their own pockets... and worked their asses off for this bill..and to get our votes to count..

now they will hopefully count..and we will finally get an opportunity to audit a damn election..

but now we are punished because we fought for what the democratic party ignored and fucked us over for, all these years..and told us to go away and shut up..they didn't give a rats ass our votes were not counting..and that when we voted, votes were swapping ..and we had no way to audit the machines or an election to see if our votes were counted.


now the very party that ignored all the voting problems and the vote theft that was going on rampant in the state of Florida..is punishing us./.because we as citizens of our state..silly us....fought a tough damn battle against the Jeb power and the repig power in this state, as well as the dem party, who told us to go away and stfu..about the machines.....and we the people...got rid of the fucking DRE machines..without any damn help or $$ from them.

so i would say..Howard Dean is not too popular among alot of Floridians right now..

and many are so disgusted..many dems i know in my county have said if they don't seat the delegates..they will vote for McCain...because at least the Repigs will seat 1/2 their delegates.

There is true anger over this..lifelong dems i know ( ones that do the work on the ground) are really fucking pissed off and have had it with the dem party ..

fly

[yourguide]

56. FIRST

The DEMS in FL submitted the early date first.

SECOND the FL legislature voted 150 to 1 to move the date up. Unless you have only 1 dem in the FL legislature the dems are just as responsible for this as the republicans down there.

[flyarm]

58. ahhh that is what i just said..the dems voted for this bill as it was a bill to get rid of our DRE

voting machines..the primary change date was tagged at the end of the bill..and i said all but 1 dem signed it.

they damn well had to, can you imagine if they hadn't signed it to rid the state of the DRE machines?????????

and yes it was brought up by both the dems and repigs to change the date..but then it was dropped when they knew the consequences..it was revisted by the repigs and tagged onto the bill requiring Paper verification of votes.

fly

[yourguide]

67. Oh STOP

they could have raised a stink about it if they wanted to - they didnt.

madfloridian will set you straight. you will see.

[seabeyond]

99. dean offered yawl the money to run it on regular day, right?

[seabeyond]

93. dean offered money if yawl didnt change your date. only the dems didnt he?

[PassingFair]

104. Florida Dems could have gotten around the early date by holding a caucus.

There were ALTERNATIVES!

This is a disingenuous argument to say the LEAST!

:freak:

[truebrit71]

62. As soon as you have a legitimate primary you can sit 'em anywhere you like...

...'til then THEY DON'T COUNT...

[HCE SuiGeneris]

66. 'zactly n/t

[THUNDER HANDS]

65. yay illegal voting...anything to help hillary steal the nomination

yay hillary, woot!

:woohoo:

[flyarm]

68. 1.7 million dems voted..a record for Fla in a primary and we are a closed state

no indy's or repigs could vote in our primary..unlike the supposed legit elections in many of rhe repig states that went to Obama.

so that would be 1.7 registered dems that voted in Fla primary.

that is alot of folks to piss off!!

and remember when you count up alot of those small states..we have 25 electorial college votes..put a bunch of those repig states Obama won * combined * and they won't equal the vote from Florida..

remember it is because of Fla being stolen ..you got GW..don't think that wasn't the plan this time..to piss off the Fla dem voters into staying home..

there are many right now in Fla very very pissed off at Howard Dean..and the DNC...people who do the grunt work for the dem party and contribute big $$ to the dem party..and remember..it is seniors who vote in the largest block!

My friends and i call our state of Fla the AARP state...they freaking vote!

last poll i saw last week from Fla..Obama is 16% points behind McCain..see the old folks don't think McCain is too old..



fly

[HCE SuiGeneris]

69. Why didn't you vote to hold legal elections?

This would have seated your delegates.

[HooptieWagon]

107. "We" didn't vote to move the date up,...

the Florida Legislature did - including Dems (115-1). They wanted to be big shots by cutting in line, also FDP (DLCers, esp. State Party Chair Karen Thurman and US sen Bill Nelson) did the as an attempt to force Dr Dean out of the DNC Chairmanship.

[flyarm]

123. we the people didn't get any vote or say! eom

[seabeyond]

100. was the primary fair to all candidates? n/t

[flyarm]

125. opps wrong spot..eom

[seabeyond]

91. i didnt know about this. i am jsut learning about it in this thread. i am stunned

and that they want it seriously. and say it with straight face and like they have a right. AND they blame dean. wha..... and obama wtf. seems like dean tried everything to avoid the wreck. the people knew what repercussion was and did it. and obama..... he had NOTHING to do with it.

[HooptieWagon]

108. Read madfloridian's journal

she outlines clearly and accurately how this happened and who was responsible.

[flyarm]

124. that is not true..Obama signed the pledge..he is the only one who broke the pledge of all the

the candidates..he was the first to say he would seat the delegates..shortly after he signed the pledge to not do so..and to not campaign in Florida..

before the ink was barely dry..he broke his pledge...and he was the only candidate to do so.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/30/obama-vows-do-whats-right/?news-breaking
Barack Obama held an impromptu news conference after a Tampa fundraiser Sunday.


By WILLIAM MARCH and ELAINE SILVESTRINI The Tampa Tribune

Published: September 30, 2007



TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it

Obama also appeared to violate a pledge he and the other leading candidates took by holding a brief news conference outside the fundraiser. That was less than a day after the pledge took effect Saturday, and Obama is the first Democratic presidential candidate to visit Florida since then.Obama and others have pledged not to campaign in Florida until the Jan. 29 primary except for fundraising, which is what he was doing in Tampa.

But after the fundraiser at the Hyde Park home of Tom and Linda Scarritt, Obama crossed the street to take half a dozen questions from reporters waiting there.

The pledge covers anything referred to in Democratic National Committee rules as "campaigning," and those include "holding news conferences.

Obama seemed unaware the pledge he signed prohibits news conferences. Asked whether he was violating it, he said, "I was just doing you guys a favor. … If that's the case, then we won't do it again."



and Obama was the only one to run commercials of all the other candidates in the state of Florida before the election...and yes i know he got permission from SC democratic leadership..but that does not negate the fact he signed a pledge to not do so..a pledge that all other candidates honored..he did not.

you can try to twsit the facts , but we in Fla of the Dem party know the facts..

...and remember this..the delegates only are effective at our dem convention...you must then deal with our voters in Nov..just keep pissing them off..and Dean can keep up this shit..but he will lose the election and Florida in Nov..and our 25 Electorial college votes.

The vote for this primary change came attached to a bill to rid the state of Florida of DRE voting machines that had no possibility of audits....it was added to that bill ...by the repubs..

yes it was voted by state dems, all but one..but it would have been suicide for them to go against our voters getting paper ballots, especially after 18,000 votes were lost in Sarasota..in 2006...in Kathrine Harris territory,,on DRE's with no possibility of audits.

and again remember this..Obama was the first and only candidate to come into Florida after pledging to
stand with the sanctions..against the state of Florida and Mich...before our Jan 29th Election.

fly

[seabeyond]

126. firstly i am trying hard to understand all this shit, listening to everyones side

and deciphering the favored candidate bullshit. because i am fair and just and i dont really care about a candidate but to get it right. and your retaliation on obama because your florida people whomever it was fucked up your election is bullshit. i hope you guys get a re vote. it isnt fair once you have been told votes dont count to then say surprise, yes they do. i would be pissed too. but because you want clinton, and your vote isnt going to her, it is so little of you and ALL the others to dump all this shit on obama. and dean.

i heard dean had offered some solutions and none were taken.

and below a read this from a poster saying clinton had some help from inside democrats.

i am not looking at this from obama side or clinton side. i want to know the truth about this or i believe nothing about it.




http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

SNIP

The rules governing the date(s) of our primary are in writing and very clearly written. It is so easy to place blame on Howard Dean, the head of our National Party, but why? Governor Dean has followed the rules to the letter and that is as it should be. When the Republican dominated State Legislature overwhelmingly voted to change/move up the primary date, our Florida State Chairwoman, Karen Thurman, was offered financial assistance by Governor Dean so that the Democrats could hold a caucus and thereby escape any penalties. This offer of assistance was turned down by our state party leader(s). Why? This would have left all our delegates intact and eligible to cast their votes at the Convention.

For many months, at many events she attended, Karen Thurman spoke of Hillary Clinton as our “next President”, a clear violation of the bylaws which state that we may not promote one candidate over another prior to the selection of our party’s nominee. At the State Convention, Rep. Debbie Wasserman-Shultz announced from the platform, “..our next President, Hillary Rodham Clinton” much to the dismay of many attendees who were supporting other candidates. Literally a hundred or more signs for Hillary went up around the room….thought the candidates had agreed not to campaign in Florida (I was turned down by Edwards campaign staff when I attempted to pay for signs for John Edwards because they said it would violate the “no campaigning” agreement). Yet here was definite campaigning for Hillary at our State Convention. Is she a woman of her word or not?

The result of all this, including the so fortunate fundraiser for Clinton held in Florida on Primary Day, was that most of our citizens knew little about the other candidates and the Clinton name recognition just about guaranteed a win for Hillary, which I personally believe, was the intent of our State Chairwoman who has consistently promoted ONLY Beltway insiders as opposed to Progressive Democrats seeking to take back our country from the corrupt administration under which we have suffered for seven long, long years.

SNIP

[ourbluenation]

71. I've seen everything now. n/t

[theboss]

74. So, a Republican should tell the Dems how to run their party?

Do I get to tell the Republicans to nominate Alan Keyes?

[DuaneBidoux]

96. Am I wrong? I thought both candidates and DNC already agreed on this?

I'm not for taking ANYONE's votes away but if you set up the rules one way is it fair to start changing them in the middle of the game?

[seabeyond]

103. and from what i am hearing one state didnt have all cnadidates on ballot, one state

only had hillary campaigning.

i am thinking that doesnt amount to fair. BUT, i cannot get those in favor of "giving" her the votes to answer

[in_cog_ni_to]

112. No one told Obama to remove his name from the Michigan ballot. It was NOT required.

Clinton and Dodd kept their names on the ballot. Had Obama just left his name on the ballot, we wouldn't be having this discussion....more than likely....unless Obama lost big in BOTH states, then disenfranchisement would still be fine with him and his supporters. NO ONE made him remove his name. It was NOT required by the DNC.

<snip>
Senators Barack Obama of Illinois and Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware - joined by John Edwards, a former senator from North Carolina, Governor Bill Richardson of New Mexico, and Representative Dennis Kucinich of Ohio - declared yesterday that they would not be candidates in the state's primary. Senators Hillary Clinton of New York and Chris Dodd of Connecticut - who, like all of the Democratic candidates, have pledged not to actively campaign in the state - chose to remain on the ballot.

The decisions serve political purposes for many of the candidates. Clinton, who has been well ahead in the polls in Michigan, may end up with a strong showing that gives momentum to her campaign, even if the DNC follows through on its threat to refuse to seat convention delegates.

The other candidates, meanwhile, can avoid the potential embarrassment of a poor showing in Michigan, while appeasing officials from New Hampshire and Iowa who are angry about Michigan's move to mid-January.

The DNC played no role in the individual candidates' decisions about Michigan and had no further comment on those moves, said spokeswoman Stacie Paxton. Florida has already been found in official noncompliance, meaning that its delegates will not be seated at the convention in Denver next year or be given any convention perks, such as hotel rooms.<snip>

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/10/10/five_democratic_hopefuls_pull_names_off_michigan_ballot_boston_globe/

[seabeyond]

117. "disenfranchisement would still be fine with him and his supporters."

his supporters adn obama did not do this to michigan and florida. you are directing your aim at the wrong people. there were rules. rules were broken. they were told what the repercussion would be. those repercussions were accepted. now they are crying not fair. election held that werent consider "for reaL" now are suppose to be taken as a for real. i want more during an election than that.

have another election both states. do it right. do it fair. and in future follow the damn rules instead of yelling when rules broken suffer repercussion

geeeez i teach my children, you choice to follow rule or not, just understand o bitchen about consequences.

full of shit though pinnin it on obama.

[HooptieWagon]

102. thankyou FDP Chair Karen Thurman, and US Sen Bill Nelson (D)