Hillary overstating her role in N. Ireland

[flor de jasmim]

It's been bugging me the last few days that HC keeps speaking as though she played a major role in the peace process in N. Ireland (and maybe should share David Trimble's Nobel Peace Prize??). Anyway, this is greated overstated, as can be seen here:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/01/clinton_and_northern_ireland.html

---snip---

The Facts
It is true that Hillary visited Northern Ireland more times than Bill. By my count, she went there six times between 1995 and 2000, while he went four times. But she accompanied her husband as first lady on those four occasions, so they were hardly "independent" visits. (She would sometimes fly in a day early to give a lecture.) She made two visits by herself to the province, in May 1999, when she was the keynote speaker to a women's conference, and a 12-hour trip in October 1997, when she gave a lecture at the University of Ulster.

---snip---

The Pinocchio Test
Hillary Clinton seems to be overstating her significance as a catalyst in the Northern Ireland peace process, which was more symbolic than substantive. On the other hand, she did play a helpful role at the margins, by encouraging organizations like Vital Voices, a women's group that takes a stand against extremism. One Pinocchio for exaggeration.

[redqueen]

1. Is she still saying that?

Wow.

[Parche]

6. Have You Ever Kissed The Blarney Stone?

:shrug:
:hi:
:hug:

[redqueen]

7. Not yet!

:hi:

[KittyWampus]

10. redqueen, she'll be tagged as an Exaggerator by the GOP for this. Like Gore, only she really IS

[Puckster]

2. Compared to Laura Bush......

Hillary was a first lady who could actually find Northern Ireland on a map. Just to be clear, I'm pretty ambivalent about Hillary, but I'm just amazed at the really skewed standard she is held to.

[theboss]

5. The standard is based on the size of the role she claims to have held

If Laura Bush suddenly decided to run for Mayor of Lubbock based on her "experience," we would explore her life in the White House pretty closely.

Hillary is claiming her 8 years as First Lady the way most politicians claim "8 years as VP" or "8 years as a Governor."

It's an unelected, largely ceremonial position. So, when she claims to have gone above and beyond that, we need to figure out just what she did.

[Puckster]

11. I agree

But compared to other first ladies, who are merely ornamental and not terribly informed, in my opinion, I think we absolutely SHOULD look at her activities as first lady, and take them into account when evaluating her as a candidate. That she may be exaggerating her efforts in Northern Ireland, or not, is the salient issue. I still think that as first lady, she went above and beyond the call of the duties of a first lady, and was far more well-versed in issues in all kinds of arenas. She can't seem to talk about any of her accomplishments without being nit-picked in a way that the other candidates are not. Double standard!

[theboss]

13. The problem is, her accomplishments are ultimately those of her husband

She may have had a role in the peace efforts in Northern Ireland. So did a hundred other people. Ultimately, though, it's her husband who gets the credit.

That's just the way it works in an Administration:

The President gets the credit/blame for everything.
The VicePresident gets nothing and likes it.
The Cabinet Secretaries get the credit/blame in their areas.
The First Lady gets the credit/blame for the decor, her sense of style, and the book she wrote on her pets.

I personally think Hillary should be treated like a cabinet secretary for healthcare. She gets the blame for killing the idea of universal healthcare. She gets some of the credit for SCHIP.

[Puckster]

14. She's been a senator for a few years now. (For better and worse.)

You are more than toeing the sexist line that is ok now, although even an insinuation of racism is not. Perhaps all us little Dem girls should just talk about clothes n' stuff? You let me know, since I clearly need my opinions doled out to me by a man.

[theboss]

16. I am more into fashion than most women, but that is neither here nor there

She has every right to run on her Senate record. It's when she gets into this nonsense of 35 years of experience that I take exception. More 20 years of her experience is in a role that is not elected and not even appointed. It just is. First Lady is the closest thing to a Monarchial Title we have in the US. To me, it would be like saying "I have 20 years experience as a Duke."

[Puckster]

17. I'm just pointing out that....

compared to other first ladies, who are purely ornamental, and unaccomplished other than changing the decor and being a fashion plate, she does have 35 years of work behind her. Some of it is pure fluff, and I have issues with her enabling a war. But it's totally sexist to suggest that all of her accomplishments redound to Ole Bill.

[Liberal Veteran]

23. And it's a gross exaggeration to claim his accomplishments as her own.

And by her own words, she has damned herself.

She NOW claims she didn't support NAFTA when it was passed.

Yet, she had such a say in everything Bill did and should be allowed to claim his accomplishments as her own.

Which was it?

She either had a true say in the running of the Clinton administration or Bill utterly ignored her while he championing NAFTA.

No matter which way you look at it, she is inflating her resume beyond any sense of reality.

[Puckster]

26. So, you'd rather have McCain in the WH?

[Liberal Veteran]

28. I beleive in oratory terms, that is called a red herring.

Consistently for the last few months, Obama has faired much better in match ups against McLame than Clinton.

The simple fact that Clinton has gone from absolute inevitability as our nominee to someone who treading water at best should give you pause if her extremely high negatives and polling against McLame doesn't.

[Puckster]

30. Her comments about inevitability pissed me off from the beginning.

I really think she wants power so badly, that she is willing to risk losing the WH to the Repugs, rather than doing what's best for the country. However, that standard that she is being held to, which I agree with by the way, is non-existent when it comes to Obama. Make no mistake, I'm not a Hillary lover, I'm just remarking on the fact that her accomplishments, some of them dubious at best, are being trashed. I don't see the same laser criticism aimed at any other candidate. I would love a woman in the WH, just not necessarily this one. I am actually losing sleep at night over the thought that her negatives are so polarizing, that we could end up with 8 more years of rape and pillage at the hands of the neocons. If I'm going to vote for Obama, who I happen to like a great deal, we are going to have to prepare for an onslaught against him from the loony right. We MUST be able to point out HIS accomplishments, which he doesn't seem to be highlighting enough. Like the bill he put together with Lugar, to secure loose nukes in Russia. Pretty impressive for a young senator from Illinois. Don't let my sarcasm make you think I am defending Hillary out of some personal agenda. I just think she is being trashed because of her gender. Have at her for enabling the war, etc. I do on a daily basis! Just hold others to the same standard.

[Liberal Veteran]

34. I don't think her gender has anything to do with it.

If anything, her personal failings and sense of entitlement has more to do with it.

[Puckster]

36. Your opinion, but I do think she is being held to a double standard.

She has oodles of personal failings, and a whopping sense of entitlement, but she's also got some experience and accomplishments under her belt. Some of those accomplishments are fluff, and some are egregious, but I'm just asking that we aim the same scrutiny at Obama, so that if/when (please, God) he makes it to the GE, he can withstand the wall of bullshit the opposition is going throw at him, and us. For the good of our party and our country, let's hold everyone running to the highest possible standard.

[Puckster]

37. We seem to have soaked up the electability/experience paradigm....

... doled out by the mainstream media. EITHER Hillary or Barack could absolutely kick McCain's ass in a GE, given the amazing turnout in the primaries, so far. When there is large turnout, Dems tend to win. As of the Super Tuesday primaries, 6 million more Dems than Repugs turned out to vote. That's HUGE. We should strongly scrutinize both Hill and Barack, in preparation for a vicious fight from the right for the WH.

[Puckster]

32. And it's a gross exaggeration to claim that her accomplishments are Bill's.

They both have their warts. She neither had a true say, nor did Bill ignore her. She swivels back and forth from one position to another in a way that pisses me off, and makes her incredibly vulnerable in a general election. The fact that she won more primaries yesterday is upsetting to me. In a GE, they are going to absolutely wipe the floor with her, using her record, as well as making crap up.

[Puckster]

18. Self delete

duplicate post

[nomorewhopper]

9. i doubt laura bush will take credit for many of georges's "accomplishments" lmao

[anonymous171]

3. She's overstated her significance on just about everything.

I can't wait until Obama takes her to task on her so called "experience."

[ORDem]

19. Hear, hear!! n/t

[Genevieve]

42. She absolutely has.

35 years of experience. Doing what?

(i used to actually like her a wee bit, before her horrible campaign).

[Benhurst]

4. So shocking, especially in a country where many actually believe

Ronald Reagan caused the Soviet Union to collapse.

[Lucinda]

8. One of the responders at the OP links sums it up well:

Posted by: Seufet | January 10, 2008 02:14 PM

Let's examine the claims in the quote...

1. I went to Northern Ireland more than my husband did -- true

2. I was working to help change the atmosphere... -- a far cry from 'This would not have happened without me'; contrast with Obama saying 'I' passed ethics reform...

3. bringing together for the first time -- the post says this 'seems dubious'...ok, if you're a 'fact checker' not an 'impression checker' maybe you should find an instance which disproves her statement, rather than make the vacuous statement that it 'seems dubious.'

[anamnua]

12. I am Irish and living in Ireland

and I can tell you that she played a low key but highly significant role in the Irish Peace Process.
Beir bua agus beannacht.

[anigbrowl]

15. I'm also Irish and was there at the time (though not now)

and while she certainly played a role, I don't know I would characterize it as 'highly significant'. By meeting with the Vital Voices group, she certainly drew media attention to the important work they were doing, among many other contributions. but I'd say this was something of a side show rather than the main event.

Here's an extensive article about it from an Irish newspaper.
http://www.irishecho.com/newspaper/story.cfm?id=18626

[Liberal Veteran]

20. Given her stance on the need for experience, we should all vote for Laura Bush.

Since her experience will be more up to date than some first lady from the last century.

[NMMatt]

21. Hillary's "Experience" is the biggest fairy tale of the campaign

Fact is that she had only one significant task as first lady - healthcare reform, and she single handedly did more to undermine progress in that area than anyone in recent history. After that she became a "traditional" first lady kissing babies at children's hospitals.

[Liberal Veteran]

22. Ouch. That's gonna leave a mark.

You are absolutely correct on that.

[Puckster]

24. That may be true, but....

let's give credit to the Rethugs for attacking the attempt to bring universal health care to us all.

[Liberal Veteran]

29. She didn't exactly cover herself in glory in her first face off with the republicans.

They mopped up the floor with her in that fiasco.

[theboss]

31. Too bad she didn't have a Democratic House and Senate....oh wait, she did

That's the most amazing part of the Health Care Saga. It couldn't get through a Dem Congress...and ultimately played a role in costing us the House and Senate.

[Puckster]

33. I know, and it's frustrating as hell. Maybe we should overhaul Congress, as well.

[NMMatt]

47. No we should invite congress to be part of the discussion

And not meet in secret and then arrogantly expect everyone who didn't have a voice in the process and who are actually politically accountable to just fall in line. It's her surpreme arrogance and condescension that screwed us on health care for a generation. I still haven't forgiven her for that one - can you tell? :P

[Puckster]

48. Agreed! But, ironically, she may be the very person who we have to deal with...

... to get healthcare reform. And the way Congress just rolls over and doesn't defend its constituents is the reason I say we need to clean house, so to speak. I haven't forgiven her for a lot of things either, but we're staring down the barrel of some pretty horrible things if the repugs get in for another 8 years. I don't have the money to help my mom out if she should have some kind of health crisis, (no, I wouldn't dare say how old she is, she'd kill me. And then I would need help.) I have a dog in that particular fight, as do so many other families.

[nomorewhopper]

25. ANOTHER HILLARY LIE

[seabeyond]

44. see, i dont call this a LIE.... i like to be real particular on this stuff.

from what i read there may be a spot where she exaggerated some, .... but it seems like she put her time and effort into the peace process in ireland and i am ALL for her getting credit where credit is due...

i am voting for obama, ...
i have a HUGE problem with clinton and rove tactics

and i dont see this as one. this i see as politics....

[busymom]

27. Actually, I lived in NI at the time

and she was seen as instrumental by the locals.

[OzarkDem]

39. and I would take their word for it

she chose not to take a high profile role and that's understandable.

[City Lights]

35. Hmmm...today we find out that Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton is a serial

exaggerator as well as a habitual non-discloser. Not a good day for Hilly.

[KittyWampus]

43. next she'll claim SHE invented the internets

[OzarkDem]

38. Let's take a stroll down memory lane

Recall the days of right wing Hillary hate after Bill was elected? (not much different from what we see in GDP these days, but I digress).

The right wing constantly harped about how they "didn't elect Hillary", etc, etc. Well here's some news for you. Hillary did continue to play an active role in her husband's administration on many issues and initiatives. But after the attacks by the right wing, she did so behind the scenes. I know because I worked on some projects that she was involved in, but she never took a high profile role. He work was done quietly and without fanfare.

So yes, I have no doubt she worked on peacekeeping in N Ireland. It was a long and difficult process and she traveled there often. But after the right wing attacks early in her husband's administration, she took no public credit for these things.

[stop the bleeding]

40. How many Delegates are up for grab in N. Ireland?

:beer:

[AtomicKitten]

41. Her resume consists of less than 1 year at the children's gig, a failed attempt at healthcare,

Walmart, and speeches. Even her foreign policy adviser, Jamie Rubin, when pressed on what exactly constitutes her foreign policy experience responded it was the 1995 Women's Conference in China. Another surrogate scratched his balls and said it was that she had traveled to 80 countries.

That's it folks. That's all there is. And I hope she gets nailed for presenting a resume that is pieced together with fluff and amphibian DNA.

[Medusa]

45. The media needs to start pressing her on what the hell this 35 years of

experience is and particularly the discrepencies in what she claims and what is factual.

[AtomicKitten]

46. should be fun and I'm looking forward to it

When Clinton decided to fight dirty, she should have hidden that can of worms that is about to be opened and dumped on her head in a delightful what goes around comes around kind of way.