IMO, Florida's delegates should be proportionately awarded, but Michigan needs a re-vote.

[MoonRiver]

I base this on the fact that all the candidates were on the FL ballot and none of them actively campaigned there, so it was a level playing field. But Hillary was the only Dem on the ballot in MI, so that is obviously an unfair result.

Bottom line: Don't waste taxpayers' money on a re-vote in FL. Just admit the Democratic leadership made a BIG MISTAKE and award the FL delegates to the candidates. But Michigan definitely should hold a re-vote, IF they want their delegates to be awarded to the candidates.

[LostinVA]

1. I've been saying this for a few weeks -- totally agree

[Debi]

64. I don't - it was not a level playing field

It can be said neither candidate campaigned there - but really Hillary Clinton had campaigned in Florida in 1992/1996 and who knows how many times in between for state/legislative candidates? How many times had Barack Obama campaigned in Florida prior to running for President? Shouldn't the voters of a state know who their choices are?

[WCGreen]

80. That is plain silly...

And you should realize that...

[Debi]

105. That's a hell of an argument

While candidates couldn't campaign down in Florida their spouses could. Wow, Michele Obama campaigning or President Bill Clinton campaigning. Silly? No Level playing field? Not at all.

[pbca]

2. No

They were told these wouldn't count before they had the vote. If they want the votes to count they need to do it all over again, and soon.

[MoonRiver]

6. But don't you see how financially wasteful that is?

The vote was a fair one in Florida,so why do it all over again? Dean made a boneheaded mistake not allowing FL and MI to have their primaries when they wanted to, again imo. Admit the mistake and award the delegates in Florida.

Michigan is another matter entirely. There has to be a re-vote there if they want their delegates to count.

[pbca]

27. It may be wasteful, but they were told in advance

that it wouldn't count. If that's how the Florida Dem. party wants to spend their money, that's up to them but if they want the votes to count they have to have a primary within the rules.

[nomorewhopper]

29. you simply cannot tell the electorate that their vote won't count

and then go ahead and count the election

it OBVIOUSLY affected the turnout. fewer dems voted than repubs. only the elderly (with lots of time on their hands) went to the polls to vote in a meaningless election. It's a terrible situation, indeed.

anybody with half a brain knows this is the case which is why there are ONLY two options (maybe 3)

1) hold a new primary election at great expense to the US taxpayer
1b) hold a new caucus at somewhat less expense to the US taxpayer

2) don't count the initial election

The democrats have been hoping to avoid this issue altogether by seeing one candidate win decisively. This looks like it won't happen, so my guess is that they will call for an emergency election in Florida and Michigan. You simply cannot allow those voters to become disenfranchised.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

82. re: only the elderly (with lots of time on their hands) went to the polls

Only the elderly voted huh? Wow! Guess I'll be needing a walker soon. :sarcasm: At my precinct which is located in one of the larger elderly districts, the only old people I saw at the polling station were the poll workers. Mostly middle aged, middle class people showed up at the polls, with a few young people here and there. During the general election I feel like I'm at a nursing home.

[nomorewhopper]

83. anecdotes do not change the fact

the fact that hundreds of thousands stayed home because they were told their vote would not count, and that the makeup of the electorate changed dramatically because they were told their vote would not count

[1monster]

109. That is simply untrue. Florida had a record turnout. Usually, primaries have low voter turnout in

Florida.

I keep seeing this "hundreds of thousands stayed home because they were told their vote would not count" and it isn't true.

I call BS.

There was a very important Amendment on the ballot which is already beginning to affect all Floridians. If the voters stayed home because of the uncertain status of their primary vote, then they probably would have stayed home with some other excuse if they hadn't had that one.

By the way, I've noticed that you've disabled your profile... Are you from Florida? Can you give me a link regarding the "hundreds of thousands" who "stayed home because they were told their votes would not count?" Or was that a figure you pulled out of the air somewhere?

[MojoMojoMojo]

85. The term "Boneheaded" is reserved for Obama

[Deep13]

3. Just because candidates couldn't cram their campaigns down FL voters' throats...

...doesn't mean the voters' rights were violated.

Michigan was unfair.

[tyne]

4. Florida was told

their votes wouldn't count. How is that cramming a campaign down throats?

[Deep13]

20. I guess I don't find that as significant as you do.

People came out to vote and I haven't heard that the turnout was especially low. If there were state primaries or issues that day, it further undermines that argument. And there was no absolute decision that FL would not count. My guess is that the DNC will allow them in to avoid alienating a critical state.

[nomorewhopper]

32. turnout was very low compared to other states in 2008 primaries

the result of that vote simply does not, and can not, represent an accurate reflection of the voter's wishes.

it looks like at least a million democrats stayed home and did not vote in florida. the people who voted? the elderly, who had lots of time on their hands. family people, working class people, and youth simply did not go to the polls to vote in a meaningless election.

[Deep13]

39. I see.

Maybe they should revote. Simply dienfranchising two major states that we need does not seem like a good idea.

[nomorewhopper]

40. i completely agree!

a revote, no matter what the cost (ug) is required to get things back on track

its really sad because this is the reason we have these laws that govern elections, because now no matter what happens the losing side will claim "cheating". hillary will win florida i'd strongly bet. i'm not sure about michigan.

imo the people that moved the primary dates should be sent to jail, and i'm not kidding.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

87. ...

You do realize that a revote will allow people to switch parties to tactically vote right? In Florida both parties have our primaries on the same day. If you have a problem with Republicans voting for Clinton in Texas as many claim, when another Florida election rolls around with McCain already crowned, it may go in favor of Clinton even more dramatically.

[Birthmark]

102. Turnout was NOT low.

That is simply an untruth.

[Birthmark]

89. That's crap.

In the 2008 Fl Primary about 1.75 million Fl Democrats voted.

In the 2004 Fl Primary about 750,000 Fl Democrats voted.

You may look that up here:
http://election.dos.state.fl.us/elections/resultsarchive/Index.asp?ElectionDate=3/9/2004&DATAMODE=

Now you are acquainted with the facts. FL's Dems were well represented. Any other contention is just dishonest.

[nomorewhopper]

92. i said "Turnout was low compared to 2008 primaries" (2004 means nothing)

compare the ratio:

Democrats in 2008 Texas (and texas is a red fucking state yet around 2.9 million dems voted compared to what, like 1.3 million republicans!), Virginia, New York, California, Ohio , etc etc absolutely overwhelmed the number of Republicans that came out to vote.

Yet in Florida, FEWER democrats voted than Republicans. It's OBVIOUS that the reason why is because dems were told that their votes would not count. Judging by the very consistent turnout numbers we've seen in every state, we should have expected to see well over 2.5 million voters at the democratic primary in florida.

It is not a surprise that more voters came out in 2008 than 2004, but when you compare the number of voters in 2008 primary to other states, Florida is a CLEAR anomaly.

[Birthmark]

95. Again, nonsense.

Florida is a CLOSED primary. The number of FL Dems voting in the 2008 primary rose by 133% over 2004. Comparing that to any other state is ridiculous, it's especially ridiculous to compare it to states with OPEN primaries; particularly those that voted after FL. And it's downright dishonest to claim that the primary didn't reflect the wishes of Floridians. By your arbitrary standards, Kerry shouldn't have been awarded FL's 2004 delegates since he got only 754,000 votes in the primary. You are merely trying to justify the unjustifiable in order to get your candidate the delegates --or at least deprive the other candidate of those delegates.

A little more on the FL Primary: "Computer bugs and human errors didn't stop Florida voters from heading to the polls en masse Tuesday, prompting Secretary of State Kurt Browning to declare that "all in all I am satisfied."
Advertisement

Early reports showed Florida on track to top its usual presidential primary performance, with one out of three registered voters casting a ballot. Turnout was much higher in some counties — surpassing 57 percent in Lee County and 46 percent in Charlotte. "It's just huge," said Mark Bubriski, a spokesman for the Florida Democratic party."
http://www.tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080130/CAPITOLNEWS/801300355/1010/NEWS01

Seat my delegates or kiss my ass in November. Endy story.

[nomorewhopper]

98. spin spin spin

the bottom line is that i don't want to kiss your foul ass (but thanks for the offer) and am a firm advocate for holding a new primary.

the electorate was told that their vote would not count. any attempt to use numbers to claim that this did not have huge influence on the election is just plain hogwash.

imo the people that decided to move the election ahead should be sent to jail. this is why we have laws to govern elections. because now, no matter what, people will cry "stolen election" and "cheating" and "foul play". seating your delegates should be a priority, but that election you had in Florida was a joke, and will not be counted.

[Birthmark]

100. Well, you clearly labeled your post

Because that's all that your post was. I have taken the liberty of looking up the Texas Exit Poll. When Republicans and Independents are removed, Texas had roughly 100,000 more Democratic votes cast in their primary than Florida. So, there is no real difference in turnout when we consider that Texas has a population greater than FL by over five million.

Shall we go through this state by state? Pick a state, any state, and we'll go through the numbers. You are simply wrong. It happens.

FL's primary was legitimate and representative of the wishes of State Democrats. Spin that as you like.

The "kiss my ass" is directed at the DNC. You don't have the power to seat my delegates. Sorry for the confusion.

[Cass]

108. Bullshit.

Nearly 2 million dems came out to vote. There was a hot property tax amendment on the ballot. Spin your bullshit somewhere else.

[1monster]

Strawman comparison. Florida had record turnout in both parties.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18514724

Record Voter Turnout in Florida

Voting was brisk throughout the day. Even before primary day, more than 1 million Florida residents, or about 10 percent of all those eligible, participated through absentee ballots or early voting. (Florida is one of several states to allow early voting at select polling stations.)

In the last Florida GOP contest in 2000, 700,000 Republicans voted. This year, about 1.9 million did. Democratic turnout was also up dramatically from 2000 and 2004, with at least 1.7 million voting on that side.

While the close presidential race may have helped turnout, a local proposition on property taxes also fueled voter traffic.

[rinsd]

111. That is not true at all. Turnout was outstanding for FL even without a Dem nomination campaign.

http://www.miamiherald.com/political-currents/story/396057.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/30/florida-voters-turn-out-f_n_84004.html

Though that was more likely because of a property tax meausre that would have amended the Constitution.

"family people, working class people, and youth simply did not go to the polls to vote in a meaningless election."

Yeah because these people didn't care about the property tax measure that would amend the Constitution.

:eyes:

Here are the exit polls

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/epolls/#FLDEM

Where you pull these factoids from Inner Rectum News?

[Fresh_Start]

37. the voters didn't make the decision, the party officials did

strip the party officials of their superdelegate status would have made more sense

[wileedog]

7. It matters because

Florida voters were told it would not count.

We don't know how many stayed home who would have voted otherwise, and what % would have backed either candidate.

It was not a valid process, therefore the votes have no legitimacy either way.

[Birthmark]

97. Doesn't matter what they were told

Florida voters ignored that, if they heard it at all. The number of votes in the FL Democratic Primary was 133% higher than it was in 2004. It was the highest in FL history, both in number of votes and percentage. Claiming it's not valid is nonsense based on the fact that some didn't like the result. Tough stuff.

Again, to the DNC: Seat my delegates or kiss my ass in November.

[gravity]

5. Because that favors Clinton

[MoonRiver]

9. Why? Because she won on a level playing field?

Isn't that what democracy is SUPPOSED to be all about? Or is Howard Dean the one who determines what democracy is supposed to be?

[tyne]

14. What level playing field.

The candidates weren't even able to campaign there. What kind of dem "campaign" is that?

[MoonRiver]

22. Exactly. NONE of the candidates, including Senator Clinton, campaigned there.

Ergo, it was a level playing field.

[Deep13]

23. see post #3.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

93. RE: candidates weren't even able to campaign there

Yeah, because none of us down here in wee old Florida have the Internet to read about the candidates positions, newspapers, magazines, radios, or a television to watch the endless stream of debates. The campaigns were so obtrusive this year that people in Botswana are probably saying get it over already, enoughs enough!

[gravity]

16. She has name recognition

And no other candidate had the chance to establish themselves with a campaign.

A revote will be fair, but not using the delegates as is.

[Birthmark]

79. Apparently, Dean believes that...

...the superdelegates (who caused this mess) should retain their seats at the convention, while ordinary and powerless Democrats in FL should be disenfranchised for what the superdelegates did. Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?

I don't want to hear any whining from the DNC when McCain carries FL. It's their fault.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

96. RE: Apparently, Dean believes that...

Funny isn't it. I can't believe I campaigned for that guy. He's has a date with a podium and needs to suck up his pride.

[Birthmark]

101. Yup. There's no problem...

...in making a mistake. We all do it. However, failing to correct that mistake through foolish pride is usually far, far more harmful than making the mistake. Dean has plenty of time and opportunity to correct his mistake. All he need do is un-seat the super-delegates and seat the delegates awarded on the popular vote. And I'm even open to some negotiation on that second point. I'd settle for half the delegates, though I still think that that would be unfair. But that's what compromise is all about.

But seriously, if FL gets no delegates at the convention, I (and some others that I know) won't vote in November. I view the right to have my vote counted as more important than the winner of any particular election.

[goldcanyonaz]

8. How does Michigan pay for a re-vote? The state is in the crapper waiting to be flushed.

[RunningFromCongress]

12. DNC offered to pay for it. Thank you.

[MoonRiver]

35. I haven't heard that. Please provide a link because that is HUGE news if true.

[madfloridian]

44. You want a link??? Take your pick. I have been writing about this...

and nobody cares and nobody pays attention until effing Hillary needs the delegates.

This one specifically refers to the money aid.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

From instigator to victim. It was a Dem who introduced the early primary bill in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1829

How it began last August....how Florida Democrats began their propaganda war
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1819

Think I exaggerate about Florida's attitude? Here's a county chairperson's rant against Dean.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1827

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a "voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1453

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1452

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1456

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1460

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1462

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1466

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1469

Bill Nelson today will file a bill for regional primaries...but first he had to get your attention
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1478

Bill Nelson today: "DNC penalties unacceptable, unacceptable, unacceptable"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1479

Carl Levin and Terry McAuliffe made a deal about primaries in 2004.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1483

Email from Florida DEC chairs saying not to give to the DNC or candidates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1481

Pelosi says it is not Florida's fault at all. So if the speaker says it I must be wrong.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1567

"Florida Democrats are all for it"...March 2006. All for the early primary that far ahead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1564

Details on how Florida worked with the GOP to set the early primary date.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1617

Nobody sued Terry McAuliffe when he said Michigan's delegates would not get near Boston.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1638

Nelson and Levin of Michigan file the bill today. It's getting deeper
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1741

My postings about the heartbreak of the Florida primary fiasco.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1607

Florida Dems at convention have button that says "Screw Dean"...very classy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1608

Senate leader ponders suing 'rogue states' over primary
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1527

[MoonRiver]

49. Please see reply #47. I accidentally replied to myself!

:argh:

[Debi]

66. I care!

:bounce:

[MojoMojoMojo]

88. "until effing Hillary needs the delegates"

Obama needs 2025 to win the nomination

[MoonRiver]

47. I am not trying to start a fight.

I can't wade through all those links. Please, if you have heard that Howard Dean/DNC has offered to pay for FL and MI re-votes I would definitely like to know the details. If you can send me ONE link about that I would appreciate it. :hi:

[madfloridian]

51. I just posted it. I put it first. He offered almost a million.

I am tired of writing and posting stuff and no one cares enough to read it.

Look it up.

[MoonRiver]

53. Well, that's a good thing then.

A million won't go very far, but it's a start.

[madfloridian]

73. Are you aware that FL Dem leaders do NOT want a revote?

This is the very worst thing that could happen to our party. It will divide us like nothing else.

I won't say what we will do if it happens...because I would be banned from here.

You are wrong to keep pushing it and beating a dead horse.

[madfloridian]

94. Well, since FL tried to hurt DNC fundraising....it is more than fair.

.

[MoonRiver]

15. I don't know. But it's results are not valid.

Nobody but Hillary Clinton was even on the ballot. MI shouldn't count unless they have a re-vote.

[madfloridian]

78. But Hillary is pushing for it...and so are you. Hillary wants MI to count.

So make up your mind. Or you with her or against her cause she plans on bringing this party down to win.

[MoonRiver]

110. I can't believe how obtuse you are.

Please carefully read my OP. I am NOT in favor of Michigan counting. I have an argument that favors Florida counting.

[galadrium]

10. How about let the candidates actually campaign, then let them vote.

It would be unfair to award those delegates without letting them each campaign and voters vote again.

[RunningFromCongress]

I think that's the 2nd most fair option..More...

Most fair (in terms of the election, not the people) would be to either A) Re-Vote both B) not count both

[Birthmark]

11. I agree.

It amazes that people calling themselves progressives want to disenfranchise fellow Democrats. It's politically stupid, too, since alienating Floridians might make it difficult to win the General Election.

[wileedog]

25. Well if its so important

"It amazes that people calling themselves progressives want to disenfranchise fellow Democrats. It's politically stupid, too, since alienating Floridians might make it difficult to win the General Election."

So lets pay for the re-vote if it is that important.

Funny how the people who are fighting tooth and nail for voters right's are suddenly penny pinchers when they might not get the same results they want.

[MoonRiver]

33. Unless you're from Florida, I'm not, you won't be paying for it.

I just believe it's an incredible waste of the Florida taxpayer's money.

[wileedog]

48. So next time

the Florida taxpayers won't try to buck the system.

They should pay a penalty for that, and they won't if the DNC simply seats the delegates.

Which again, were counted in an invalid process because the voters were told it doesn't count.

You want a legitimate vote in Florida, I'm all for it. But this is like saying a team should be in the World Series because they won an Exhibition game.

[1monster]

67. The Florida taxpayers DID NOTtry to buck the system. WE had NO SAY in the primary dates

set. WE were NOT asked.

The dates were set by the state legislature; yes some Democrats voted with the Republicans. And, yes, Bill Nelson pushed for the early primary too.

But the TAXPAYERS only foot the bill. We get no say in the dates set.

Once again the Florida VOTERS get screwed. And this time by our own party.

I say, let Bill Nelson with his followers and Howard Dean with his follwers get in a ring and duke it out.

Maybe we'll get lucky and they all knock each other into the hospital. Then we could get some sensible leadership. A leadership that knows a power struggle like this one is STUPID.

As far as most Democratic Floridians that I have talked to are concerned, they can all go cheney themselves!

[Birthmark]

74. Isn't it interesting...

...that it was the people at the top like Superdelegate Nelson (whose vote WILL count) is not penalized in the least. It's ordinary Democrats that the DNC is picking on. I guess disenfranchising the superdelegates (which would be appropriate, given the circumstances) is too tough for the DNC, so they take it out on us little guys.

No delegates at the Convention, no vote in November!

That is my motto. There is a larger issue here than one election, imv.

[1monster]

84. Yes, it is. My suggestion was to seat the rank and file delegates and deny the Super Delegates.

I could live with that easily, even happily.

[Birthmark]

86. Seems the obvious and appropriate solution

That's what the DNC should have done in the first place. The DNC made a bad call and rather than admit that and correct it, they are sticking to their stupid decision for emotional reasons.

But I'm sure they'll feel fully justified at McCain's Inauguration.

[Birthmark]

36. What the hell is a "re-vote?"

You know, I'm sorry Obama didn't win Fl and all, but that's the way it goes. I'm far more sorry that Edwards didn't win, though. Either way, the people of FL voted. The DNC can either accept the will of FL Democrats or ignore it. There will be no re-vote.

[wileedog]

50. They did not vote

They went and pulled levers in a machine in an exercise which everyone was told did not count. People who may have wanted to vote did not go to the polls.

Calling that a legitimate vote is a sham and will cause a legal headache that will make 2000 look like a traffic violation.

[Birthmark]

54. Nonsense. Complete nonsense

Floridians went to the polls on the day appointed by the State. They voted in the usual manner with no major irregularities. They voted in record numbers in the Democratic primary (which is closed by the way, so EVERY vote in that primary was from a Democrat). There is no legal justification for a re-vote. We voted in good faith in a manner consistent with Florida's law.

The DNC's problem is the DNC's problem. But they'd better figure it out pretty quick. There are a lot of us who think our votes are more important than the DNC's political ego. If they think that they can win without FL, then good luck to 'em.

[wileedog]

65. Wrong

It was NOT "good faith". people were told not to bother, it doesn't count. Just because the state went through the exercise anyway does not make it a valid process. Jsut because there was hig turnout, you don't assume there was no effect. Proportionally against other states the turnout was actually low.

You are just making assumptions, which are not a legal and valid way to count the votes.

And if your going to vote for McCain because your own state party officials are boneheads then you deserve everything you are going to get. I would take that anger and energy and make sure the people who decided to play 'chicken' with the DNC were shipped the hell out of there.

[Birthmark]

71. No, you are wrong.

Florida law set the date and places for voting. Tough stuff for the DNC if they don't like it. They can take it up with (and out on) the State government. Using the voters as pawns is wrong, anti-democratic, and stupid. The votes were legally and validly counted, unless you have some evidence that shows otherwise. You may not like that, but that's the way it is.

Your point about turnout likewise is foolishness. FL had a record turnout. Period. The fact that you *believe* it should have been better is based on your feelings, not any sort of facts or real reasons.

I didn't say that I was going to vote for McCain. I will simply sit it out. If the DNC doesn't count my vote in the summer, they won't get my vote in the fall. Let the DNC figure out how to win the election without me, my wife, and several of my friends, and some of my friends' friends...

After all, what really counts here is how the DNC feels, right? Or is it that Obama didn't win?

[1monster]

77. Are you a Floridian? If so, your opinion might have merit. If not, then STFU!

As a Floridian, I went to the polls and voted my choice (whom by the way is no longer running). My vote, and those of every other voter was in good faith.

We (apprently studpidly) believed that the Democratic Party would work this out so that our votes would count.

How would you feel if there were a feud going on between the top Demo dog in your state and the top Demo dog in the DNC that cost YOU your vote? And those who have no real stake in this, except that they are for one candidate or another, kept insisting that the voters of your state didn't count?

I think you'd be singing a different tune altogehter.

You want to punish Nelson and the other Dems who pushed for an early primary? GO AHEAD. But you are not punishing them one little bit by disenfranchising Florida voters.

By refusing to come up with some kind of acceptable compromise, Dean (as the leader of the party) has weakened the Party and himself.

You notice, the Florida Republicans are not screaming anywhere near as loudly as the Dems are. But then the Republican Party is (unbelievably) being more reasonable in thier punitive efforts. Only half of the Republican delegates will be denied their seats at their convention.

My suggestion is that Florida's Super Delegates be denied convention credentials, while the delegates who were voted for in the primary be seated.

That would take care of Nelson and other Dems who broke the rules.

But I guess that is way to reasonable for those playing politics with our votes.

[KaryninMiami]

13. Excuse me- but you are wrong. I voted knowing it would not count. Many did not vote at all.

How dare anyone - suddenly decide to change the rules after the game is over? And for the record- Hillary broke the rule and campaigned here. She called it a fund raiser. But she was here on Miami Beach campaigning away. Here is the story of what happened to our delegates:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4807226
LETTER TO THE EDITOR: FLORIDA’S DELEGATES TO CONVENTION

February 27, 2008

Dear Sir:

I am beginning to see more and more letters asking that Florida’s delegates be seated at the National Democratic Convention and that their votes be counted. To clarify this matter, once and for all and, as a member of Hernando County Democratic Executive Committee and an elected Precinct Committeewoman, here are the true facts.

The rules governing the date(s) of our primary are in writing and very clearly written. It is so easy to place blame on Howard Dean, the head of our National Party, but why? Governor Dean has followed the rules to the letter and that is as it should be. When the Republican dominated State Legislature overwhelmingly voted to change/move up the primary date, our Florida State Chairwoman, Karen Thurman, was offered financial assistance by Governor Dean so that the Democrats could hold a caucus and thereby escape any penalties. This offer of assistance was turned down by our state party leader(s). Why? This would have left all our delegates intact and eligible to cast their votes at the Convention.

For many months, at many events she attended, Karen Thurman spoke of Hillary Clinton as our “next President”, a clear violation of the bylaws which state that we may not promote one candidate over another prior to the selection of our party’s nominee. At the State Convention, Rep. Debbie Wasserman-Shultz announced from the platform, “..our next President, Hillary Rodham Clinton” much to the dismay of many attendees who were supporting other candidates. Literally a hundred or more signs for Hillary went up around the room….thought the candidates had agreed not to campaign in Florida (I was turned down by Edwards campaign staff when I attempted to pay for signs for John Edwards because they said it would violate the “no campaigning” agreement). Yet here was definite campaigning for Hillary at our State Convention. Is she a woman of her word or not?

The result of all this, including the so fortunate fundraiser for Clinton held in Florida on Primary Day, was that most of our citizens knew little about the other candidates and the Clinton name recognition just about guaranteed a win for Hillary, which I personally believe, was the intent of our State Chairwoman who has consistently promoted ONLY Beltway insiders as opposed to Progressive Democrats seeking to take back our country from the corrupt administration under which we have suffered for seven long, long years. As for Michigan, I thought all candidates had agreed not to be on the ballot there, but there was Hillary…can you count this as a “win” when the only competition was Kucinich? I think not and find this a statement we should pay attention to regarding Hillary Clinton’s word and her character.

So please citizens of the could be great state of Florida, stop vilifying the guy(s) who play by the rules. We have had seven years of watching our Constitution and our laws violated over and over again by those currently in power. Do we now blame those among true Democrats who follow the rules and obey the laws? Following the Judas Goat leads to only one place, the slaughterhouse!

Respectfully,

Frances Earl

Chair-Democracy for America Tampa Bay North

[tokenlib]

17. Be careful what you wish for....

Granholm is so unpopular because of her being the easiest scapegoat for our economic hellhole(and I like her) that a lot of people of all political persuasions might go for Barack just to embarrass her...

And there is precedent--a lot of us dems voted for McCain in 2000 to embarrass our fat ass Gov. Engler who's assured Bush he'd get the state. Mischief can work.

[MoonRiver]

28. Wake up. I am for democracy.

I wish we would just eliminate the stupid and undemocratic delegate system and rely on popular votes for all primaries and general elections.

[madfloridian]

18. No, you are wrong. The nominee would not be legit.

Even with all the court hearings...no, hell no.

[LittleClarkie]

19. They both need a revote. Some people didn't vote in Florida

because it didn't matter.

So the only fair thing would be a revote in both states.

[mazzarro]

21. How do deal with voters that skipped?

What about voters in those two states that decided not to vote because they have already accepted that the vote won't count?
The argument that it was a level playing field is not totally true since we do not know the percentage of voters that would have voted for either candidates and chose to skip voting because of this problem.

[1monster]

81. Only very irresponsible voters skipped this election. There was an Amendent on the ballot that was

VERY important to the state.

Besides which, we had a record turnout.

Primaries in this state tend to have very low voter turnout. That was not true this year.

[democrattotheend]

24. I don't like that idea but I could live with it

I don't think it's fair to count Florida but I am less opposed to that than I am to counting Michigan. And if we are going to count Michigan, then Obama should get all of the uncommitteds, since all of those people specifically cast a vote AGAINST Hillary Clinton.

[madfloridian]

26. Don't fret, don't worry. Repub Charlie Crist to the rescue.

He is teaming with the Hillary people to get MI's vote as well.

If Hillary goes ahead with this, I will not consider her the nominee.

[MoonRiver]

30. What the hell are you talking about?

Florida's governor can somehow get Michigan's results counted? :wtf:

[madfloridian]

38. It's a new tactic by Hillary's campaign

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2963505

[MoonRiver]

43. Has nothing to do with Hillary. The governors want their delegates awarded.

I'm sure you understand my position. MI is out unless they do a re-vote. I think there's a good argument, based on the level playing field that existed during the primary, to award Florida's delegates.

Yes, some people possibly stayed home. But statistically speaking, as many Hillary supporters as Obama supporters stayed home. There's no reason to think otherwise.

[madfloridian]

46. No, I do NOT understand your position. Hillary has CALLED to seat them.

IF Florida's delegates are awarded in any way unfairly....it is a signal that she OWNS the party. This is her way of saying Dean does not have the authority.

[MoonRiver]

52. Again, IMO, Dean made a very bad mistake.

The Florida electorate should not be forced to pay for it. They put all the candidates on the ballot and none were allowed to campaign. It was a level playing field. Probably as many Clinton supporters stayed home as Obama supporters.

LEVEL PLAYING FIELD = VALID RESULTS.

I think there's going to be a gigantic lawsuit about this. The Democratic Party has no right to disenfranchise American citizens based on stupid and arbitrary "rules."

DNC either needs to pay for a re-vote in Florida or accept its results. Michigan is another matter.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MoonRiver]

58. I am sick of being insulted by you juvenile Obama people.

You are now officially on IGNORE.

[yourguide]

61. OOOH I AM SHAKING IN MY BOOTS!!!

So, you are WRONG, I back it up with facts and quotes, and you put me on ignore.

so what!

[wileedog]

63. Nope

"Probably as many Clinton supporters stayed home as Obama supporters. "

Your argument becomes invalid at "Probably"

And the Democratic Party LEGALLY has the right to decide how its votes are counted any way they want, including the LEGAL right to discount results that don't play by their rules. FL already lost this lawsuit, its not coming back.

Am I remembering wrong or has the DNC offered to pay for the re-vote already?

[madfloridian]

76. There already is an effing lawsuit....being heard on March 17

Have you read nothing on this issue at all?

I am sick to see the Hillary campaign pushing this.

It is saying she controls the party, and it is notice to Dean they will not accept his leadership.

[1monster]

106. And would your tune change if it were Obama calling for the delegates and not Hillary?

For the record, I don't like Hillary or Obama.

My only axe in this pole is that the Florida voters not get screwed again.

You have been very vocal in being willing to sacrifice the voters in Florida and Michigan, and resist any reasonable compromise.

Like, for example, seating the delegates but not the super delegates who are part of the problem.

Or not seating the super delegates and seating half of the elected delegats.

Answer this MadFlo...why are you so gungho on disenfranchising your fellow Floridians when the culprits were elected officials who, being super delegates, will be seated at the convention and not punished at all?

[wileedog]

57. There is no way to prove that

We don't elect people based on statistical probabilities, we elect them on votes.

[Birthmark]

103. And the votes are in and counted.

There is no rational reason to deprive the people of the FL their voice. None. We had 133% in turnout for the primary over 2004. It was clearly legitimate by any reasonable standard.

[madfloridian]

31. If Hillary continues this push, it will undermine the DNC.

It will mean she really does have her campaign set up as a "shadow DNC."

"A few months earlier, The New Republic had reported that Clinton's camp was
"laying the groundwork to circumvent the DNC in the event that Clinton wins
the nomination." This shadow DNC had a number of integral parts: adviser
Harold Ickes would develop state-of-the-art technology to help Clinton reach
prospective voters; EMILY's List and Clinton's allies in organized labor
would launch an unprecedented effort to turn out supporters, especially
women voters; former DNC chair Terry McAuliffe would raise untold sums from
wealthy donors and the business community; and communications honcho Howard
Wolfson would direct an unrelenting war room. Ever since 1992 the Clintons
had used the DNC as an outpost for raising money from big donors, and
funding candidates had taken precedence over nurturing progressive
organizers. That model would continue into '08. Dean could remain at the DNC
as a figurehead but only if he stayed in line.

And then the effort to marginalize Dean collapsed. Partly it's because the
party's Congressional takeover--and a subsequent study by Harvard's Elaine
Kamarck documenting Dean's contributions toward that end--eventually
silenced the Carville-ites. Partly it's because Barack Obama forced the
Clintons to devote all their resources to fending off his insurgent
candidacy. But another reason the DNC-in-exile never got off the ground was
Dean himself. Dean is no longer a marginalized figure, the butt of "Dean
scream" jokes, but a man with a powerful constituency in regions where his
fifty-state strategy has energized aging, ailing or previously nonexistent
state parties. His support to these parties has not only strengthened them
but has created an independent power base for Dean himself."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080317/berman

She is signaling that she and hubby ARE the party, not us.

[Birthmark]

104. And if the DNC persists in its stupid and unfair

retaliation, it will hurt the Democratic Party and the candidate...as well as the People of Florida.

To the DNC: Seat my delegates or kiss my ass in November.

[Fresh_Start]

34. totally agree nt

nt

[yourguide]

41. Not a level playing field if no one was allowed to campaign or advertise

campaigning is very important to winning these states and if it werent dont you think the nominees would just stay in washington?


sorry, doesnt wash.

[MoonRiver]

55. It was level if everybody was doing the same thing.

In this case that means not campaigning.

[yourguide]

59. No because one player had a huge name recognition advantage over another

so it's not level. even Florida Democratic Party chairwoman Karen Thurman has stated:

"It is important that we are clear about one issue. At this time, no suggested alternative process has been able to meet three specific and important requirements: the full participation from both candidates , a guaranteed commitment of the millions of dollars it will cost to conduct the event and a detailed election plan that would enfranchise all Florida Democrats, including our military service members serving in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere."

[HockeyMom]

42. We cannot be held hostage to Florida AGAIN

Florida needs to learn a LESSON and FAST. They are not better than any other state in this country.

I moved to this unfortunate state. I voted in this unfortunate state. I knew my voted wouldn't count. So be it.

Former New Yorker who voted for Hillary TWICE, but NO MORE.

[yourguide]

45. EVEN THE HEAD OF THE FL DEMS

Says "the full participation from both candidates" is a requirement. I dont think that means not campaigning. from politico:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0308/Inching_toward_a_revote.html#comments


Florida Democratic Party chairwoman Karen Thurman has a statement out that seems, at least, warm to the notion of a re-vote there -- something neither campaign has publicly signaled an interest in, but still seems to many (not least sun-starved reporters) the best of bad options.

"It is important to remember that the Democratic nominating process does not end until June 10. The Florida Democratic Party continues to work with our leadership, Sen. Clinton, Sen. Obama and the Democratic National Committee to ensure this state is fully represented at the National Convention.

"We have discussed many things, ranging from the plans for the general election to a potential alternative primary to the process for appealing to the credentials committee of the National Convention to seat our delegates as currently allocated.

"It is important that we are clear about one issue. At this time, no suggested alternative process has been able to meet three specific and important requirements: the full participation from both candidates, a guaranteed commitment of the millions of dollars it will cost to conduct the event and a detailed election plan that would enfranchise all Florida Democrats, including our military service members serving in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

[jefferson_dem]

60. I'm not a fan a do-overs. They fucked up and we should leave it at that. A caucus in MI maybe...

That seems to be what Granholm is suggesting.

***

Results were too close to call in Texas early today, but even before Clinton won in Ohio, her campaign chairman, Terry McAuliffe, said he would welcome a second chance in both states (Michigan and Florida), where Clinton won what are, for now, meaningless primaries.

"We're all for a primary in both states because we can't go into a general election and say those votes didn't count," he said. "But do-overs cost millions of dollars. It's up to those states."

Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm, a Clinton supporter, said the victory in Ohio changes "the landscape a bit" and could open the door to a Democratic caucus -- not a primary -- in Michigan, though it would have to be privately funded and both candidates would have to agree.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080305/NEWS15/803050333/1009/NEWS07

[guidod]

68. You can't change the rules

in the middle of a game, you change them next time. Florida and Michigan knew the consequences before they changed the dates of their primaries. The people in those two states have to take it out on their own government. Nobody was on the ballot in Michigan and nobody campaigned in Florida. It is what it is.

[Debi]

62. Hmmmm, Clinton had been First Lady for eight years and had

campaigned there for her husband and others in the state prior to running for President. How many campaign visits had Obama made to Florida before running for President? Wonder how Obama would have fared in Florida if he were able to actually campaign in the state prior to the election? But you call it a level playing field?

[sunnystarr]

69. If HRC wants the votes to count for MI and FL

then the only fair thing to do is to divide the delegates in half and give HRC and Obama half of the delegates each.

[adapa]

70. I agree, MI & FL have different solutions- Dean needs to step up & broker a solution like yours

[madfloridian]

72. No, if FL counts, Hillary will not be a legit nominee.

She will have usurped power that rightly belongs to the DNC.

[ecstatic]

75. Are you kidding? It's called disenfranchisement. Voters in FL stayed home

thinking their votes would not count!

[PITBOS]

107. good post.. thats not democracy telling the state their

vote won't count and then change the rules.

[MojoMojoMojo]

90. Let the candidates pay for the balance of the cost after DNC

They both have obscene amounts of donations.A few less or even a lot less TV commercials wont hurt either of them.
How much is the cost anyway?

[sampsonblk]

91. Re-vote them all

You can't reward breaking the rules. But we have to have a way of counting FL and MI.

[madfloridian]

99. I think Ohio needs a revote, myself.

I don't like the way it went. I don't care about the rules...just have a revote there.