Political Shock Therapy -- Is Hillary thinking of opening it up for 2012 as her back-up plan?

[Armstead]

I feel guilty about asking, but since the Clinton campaign has decided to encourage specualtion and innuendo, this fits right in.

Is it a possibility that she has decided on a scorched earth strategy in the primaries with the idea that she will with win by whatever means necessary OR set herself up for another run at it in 2012 by making Obama unelectable as the nominee and create a void that she could fill then?

McCain is no spring chicken, and there is a lot of talk he is only thinking about one term. So if he were to win the White House, it's not such a big deal for the Clintons to sit this one out and come back in 2012.

They could apply the theory in Naomi Klein's book Shock Therapy by creating disarray and then stepping in to claim you are the solution.

This way she has a chance to win,even if she loses this time.

Just wondering.... :tinfoilhat:

[Hawkeye-X]

1. If we had our way, she'd be getting the numbers lower than Gravel...

for 2012.

[jgraz]

2. No question about it

Why else would she be talking up McCain as president?

[GarbagemanLB]

3. If Obama loses the general and she stays in until convention, she has no shot at a future presidency

[Armstead]

4. Never underestimate.....

[progdog]

Maybe, maybe not.

People have short memories as we've already seen. I think it is her plan.
Four years is ok but in eight years she's likely to have McCain's age issue.

[Armstead]

13. A political version of Naomi Klein's Shock Therapy

If the Democratic Party is thrown into disarray, then Clinton and the DLC can claim to be the deliverers and take over again.

Doesn't matter that they caused the chaos. As you said, people have short memories.

[DJ13]

8. If Obama loses the general and she stays in until convention.........

Well, if her plan really IS to just stay in now to bloody Obama so she can run against President McCain (it pains me to type that), then I expect she will only stay running until Pennsylvania to maximize the damage she can do as a candidate in a contested election.

Then she'll try to make another go at her not-quite Texas debate concession speech hoping to smooth things over with the party.

Maximum damage is her intent at this point.

She has to know theres no chance of actually being the nominee now.

[Armstead]

18. I think she's fighting to win this time

But I'm beginning to wonder if she sees the collateral damage to Obama as a back-up plan to open it up for her next election.

[democrattotheend]

28. I disagree

If she can make a credible case for staying in (which unfortunately she did the other night by winning Ohio, at least for now) she can take it to the convention, weaken Obama's chances in the general, and get the nomination in 2012.

I'd like to think she's not that selfish, but I can't think of any other way to explain her decision to focus the election on national security. She has to know that either of them will get killed against McCain if that's the focus of the election. If John Kerry, a decorated war veteran, could not beat draft-dodger George Bush on security, how the hell will Clinton or Obama beat McCain on the issue?

If the focus is the economy or Iraq, we have a good chance, but if the election is about national security, we don't have a prayer and I think she knows that.

[earthlover]

45. Maybe we should Draft Wes Clark again....

[Dogmudgeon]

5. No agenda there!

" ...the Clinton campaign has decided to encourage speculation and innuendo ... she has decided on a scorched earth strategy ... she will with win by whatever means necessary ... set herself up for another run ... by making Obama unelectable as the nominee ..."

It's a bunch of anti-Hillary talking points. For people who despise her for her supposed bad manners and mud-slinging, they sure do a lot of mud-slinging themselves.

--p!

[Armstead]

7. When in Rome.....

My anger at the tactics she and her campaign have used is honest and heartfelt.

She didn't have to "go there" but she chose to.

[Dogmudgeon]

19. And my anger?

So you tell me that your anger is "honest and heartfelt". Well, if you feel it, it must be right. Hey, I feel my anger, too. But instead of seeing the Daughter of Satan, I see a public servant who has been unfairly defamed for two decades and then blamed with a chorus of "she brought it on herself".

The Clintons have put up with two decades of slime based on a long series of rumors, gossip, spin, innuendo, lies, stories, perjured testimony, wingnut bile, uber-lefty jealousy and hipster disdain. And every time I ask for the reason to hate Bill and/or Hillary, I have been referred to some cockamamie story or the bellyaching of one of their political enemies.

Still not a word of empirical support for the Evil Hillary Theory in sight. But plenty of condescending "you just don't get it" and dismissive head-shaking.

The confected outrage of the Clinton haters is every bit as ridiculous as that of Rush Limbaugh. Bill can't even raise money for his charitable foundation without fifty junior "investigative journalists" telling us that they heard that a friend of an anonymous highly-placed source who used to date his sister said that Bill may have illegally spent $7.95 on a book of Peanuts cartoons and maliciously not paid the sales tax.

Hillary didn't "go there" at all, wherever "there" may be. Your imagination went there and found it pleasing to think that she is evil. But there are no credible, verifiable reasons given as to why Hillary is evil, or why Obama is any better.

Devils are more fun than angels, and feelings are less work than critical thought. The Clintons may be politicians, but their haters are just haters.

--p!

[Armstead]

20. Not evil -- Just self-centered and hypocritically opportunistic

...and part of a brand of Democrat that has helped the GOP pull the political center far to the right.

I have many legitimate policy differences with the Clintons and the DLC, and had them long before Obama came on the scene.

And over the years at DU, I have engaged in numerous serious discussions about the meat and substance of those differences. Feel free to use the search function and go back to 2001. You may legitimately disagree, but don't make claims that I'm just reacting to "feelings" (which by the way is a favorite right-wing talking point word).

But if Hillary had chosen to run a civil campaign I would have had a more even keel about her. But seeing her spitting out "Shame on you Barak Obama" in feigned outrage and engaging in other Rovian attacks does piss me off far beyond my basic disagreement and mild annoyance with her.

[Unsane]

6. Is the pope catholic?

[Armstead]

15. No he's a muslim

[CoffeeCat]

17. ...and he killed Vince Foster.

[Armstead]

21. No, Sadaam did that

[CoffeeCat]

26. With his reconstituted chemical weapons program? nt

[Armstead]

27. Yes one of those long-range darts

[CoffeeCat]

29. That he shoots from his mobile-weapons labs?

[Armstead]

32. At 3 a.m.

[CoffeeCat]

41. Well, that's really unfortunate...

...because the only person in the entire galaxy fit to handle a 3:00 a.m. crisis, is
too busy--furiously blacklining her tax returns and thousands of White House documents with a Sharpie.

[BearSquirrel2]

9. If she scorches this election ...

If she scorches this election, her standing in the Democratic party will be mud. If she bows out and backs Obama, she might have a chance if Obama lost the general election.

Don't forget that there has never been a women House Majority/Minority leader. She could still blaze that trail. There IS something short of the White House.

A VP nomination is out of the question at this point. We all know that the McCain ad featuring Hillary dissing him on experience is probably mostly made already. How could Obama make her his running mate??? Conversely, if she thought Obama "wasn't ready" to become President, why would she make him a heartbeat away from the office?

That ship has sailed.

[Bullet1987]

10. I would hate to think of it this way...

but you can't not help but to speculate that this is a long-term aspect of their strategy. People have been saying it for a while on this board..."if she can't win, then no Democrat will."

[Armstead]

12. It looks more like this if you project everything out

Not just dragging down Obama but encouraging fights over seating Fla and MI....Kicking Dean, the party's leader, in the butt....promoting general division among the party....

It's either massively short sighted or Machevellian in the extreme

[dbonds]

11. Well, the Clintons didn't get behind Kerry so they could have 2008

So that is possible.

[blm]

14. You mean Bill's 3 week high profile book tour REPEATEDLY defending Bush on terrorism and Iraq

weren't helpful to the Democratic nominee opposing those decisions in 2004?

[Hutzpa]

16. So thats how old you have to be

to become President now, I'm sure folks are looking for to Grampa President Macaca.

[mculator]

22. Dream Ticket solutions

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4927930

[Armstead]

25. Unless one of them checks their ego at the door....

I doubt that's going to happen.

[Mme. Defarge]

23. Obviously.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

24. I mentioned in a thread just a few days ago...

that I am quickly coming to the conclusion. :tinfoilhat:

Her camp isn't stupid -- they know what the delegate numbers are looking like, and the incredibly slim chance she has to overtake Obama.

The last few weeks have begun to feel very much like "If I can't have it (now), I'll make sure you don't either."

[AZBlue]

30. At first I thought this was too conspiratorial, but now I see the logic because Clinton's not dumb.

She knows she can't win the nomination for 2008. She also knows that by publicly building up McCain she's handing him ammunition to use against her if they were in a match-up in the GE - by that very move alone it's obvious she's not anticipating being the Dem candidate this year.

So, she weakens Obama as much as she can now, hoping for a McCain victory in Nov. We all know that McCain will almost make Bush look decent as President - and in steps Clinton in 2012, telling everyone "I told you so" and gaining votes through guilt and remorse.

I'm beginning to think Rove may be on her payroll.

[Armstead]

31. I hope it's too conspiratorial -- I'd rather be wrong on this

I do think she's trying to win this year.

But I am beginning to wonder what she's thinking as the alternative if she can't get the nomination now. I'm not sure the prospect of an Obama victory is very enticing, as it would likely put off her ability to seriously run again for another eight years.

[AZBlue]

36. I know - I can't fully say I believe this theory 100%

But...

Clinton's too smart to pull the stuff she's pulling now - she's also too good at math not to know the numbers are against her. When Obama wins in November, she'll have to wait at least 8 years and she's not good at waiting. She's going down and she has to know it - so this way she can take him down too? I'm not sure, but it is a convincing argument - maybe time will tell, but hopefully time will just show this to backfire against her.

[bvar22]

33. If Hillary is successful at getting McCain elected,

and destroying the Democratic majorities in Congress, she will become more of a pariah than Nader.

She will be met with tar and feathers when she goes back to New York.

[billyoc]

34. Backup plans are not her strong suit, apparently. She'll lose her Senate seat in '12. nt

[antigop]

35. Maybe it's simply a case of listening to her "advisers"

Mark Penn wins either way, right? If HRC or McCain wins, Penn wins, right?

So it's just her ego keeping her going --maybe she really believes she can pull this out. And Penn is right there with the talking points.

[Armstead]

37. I think she believes she can win this time

But I'm wondering what she's thinking is the preferred alternative if she doesn't get the nomination.

Anmd yes, Mark Penn wins either way.

[antigop]

39. I'm not sure she has even considered a "preferred alternative".

I think she is just charging along, convinced she will win, with Mark Penn beside her telling her what to do and say.

jmo

[ShadowLiberal]

38. I don't think it'll work even if that's her plan

I don't think that plan will work if it is what she's thinking for a variety of reasons.

1) If Obama gets the nomination then loses the democrats are going to remember how Hillary went negative a lot sooner then Obama, and how she had the far more negative and potentially damaging in a general election attacks then Obama did.

2) If McCain starts to use some stuff that Clinton said against Obama, or even says "Even senator Clinton says ", then it's going to really hurt Hillary's chances if it costs Obama the election.

3) If Hillary can't even win her own party's nomination in 2008 then how the hell is she supposed to win the general election in 2012 if even Obama couldn't win in 2008 in the general election? Take a look at the polls, Hillary has very high unfavorable ratings among republicans, and independents, the only group she doesn't have them in is democrats. If she can't win the nomination in a contest in which most of the people who hate her aren't allowed to vote then the how the hell is she supposed to win a general election in which everyone who hates her can vote against her?

4) If Hillary can have such a massive 'inevitable' lead for months and months, then squander it all with a lot of poor planning, and various screw ups, then why should her backers throw all of that money at her again in 2012? What's to stop her from screwing it all up again, and having anger towards stuff she did in 2008 become an issue that'll hurt her a second time around? I highly doubt that if Hillary ran for president again that she'd have anywhere near as easy a path to the nomination as she appeared to have in 2008 months ago.

[totodeinhere]

40. The Clintons weren't exactly pulling out all the stops for Kerry in 2004.

And it was widely believed that they hoped that Kerry would lose so she could run in 2008. So I expect the same scenario here. If Obama gets the nomination look for only tepid support from Clinton. If Obama were to lose she would only be 65 in 2012 which is plenty young enough to run again.

[Diane R]

42. Yes. Hillary's goal is now kneecapping Obama and working for McCain's election. Her turn in '12.

[David Zephyr]

43. Armstead, you are not alone at wondering what the hell they are up to with their doomed campaign.

I know that you were not originally for Obama, but only came to support him after a very long time. I waited out all of 2007 before making my decision. We are hardly the cultists that some would like to paint us.

That said, I have no explanation for the hell-bent, Sherman-burn-it-all-down, destructive campaign that has now become the signature of Bill and Hillary Clinton.

You fill in the reasons. I'm just perplexed. They can't win and they don't seem to give a damn.

[Armstead]

44. A better Sherman analogy....

It's as if he made his march through THE NORTH instead of the south, even though he was a northern general.