Clinton Should Agree to Primaries (not Caucuses) in FL and MI

[kennetha]

She would, I think, win Florida going away -- especially with Edwards out of the way. She could win Florida 62 - 38 or so. She could probably win Michigan by 8-10 points. Coming after TX, Ohio, Penn, if she adds formally adds MI and Fla to her tally of big states, there is no way, no way in heck, that the automatic delegates move to Obama.

Problem is it would take a lot of money. And it might be closer than I am imagining. But I believe she would win a "fair fight." Moreover, she could easily position herself as the champion of the Florida and Michigan voters by not giving in too easily to the idea of a new primary. That way she could position herself as standing for the enfranchisement of the voters who already voted and position Obama as the self-serving opportunist who is willing to disenfranchise millions for the sake of his own blind ambition and impregnable sense of entitlement. Let it be him and the DNC be the ones who resist enfranchising the people. Hillary insists on a re-vote as a kind of compromise and she campaigns as the candidate who wanted to count the original vote on behalf of the people.

But there absolutely must not be anything short of a primary -- and preferably a closed primary open to registered dems only.

[Kittycat]

1. Actually - I do believe there might be some rule that one of the two states

must caucus. Can't remember it exactly, but I did read about it.

Caucuses are also cheaper, so if the states decide to go that route, it's still a legitimate way to get their delegates awarded and seated.

[kennetha]

2. They both had primaries

Why would they be "required" to caucuses.

Caucuses are an affront to democracy. They are seized by the most organized and devoted junta. That a plethora of Obama's delegates were won in caucuses and that he has gotten his tail kicked in many primaries in crucial dem states is a powerful argument against the automatic delegates handing him the nomination.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. I Agree With Everything You Said About Caucuses

Do they change the rules for a rematch in any other endeavor?

[aaroh]

41. Clintons should just STFU

People will be up in arms if one team tried to change the rules in the middle of the superbowl. Hillary should be content with any bone thrown her way, show some humility and just STFU!

[Kittycat]

28. The rule had to do with not being able to have 2 primaries.

But you could have a caucus or mail-in I think. I don't have a problem with any option, I'm just stating what I read.

And one could argue that Obama's supporters are more dedicated, and that's why he does better than Clinton at caucuses.

[LisaM]

3. Yes, after this election, I think we need to examine the caucus system

Caucuses are ridiculous. They are undemocratic, and they limit the rights of people to vote.

Michigan and Florida have both traditionally been primary states. First, I think they should have primaries. The DNC has plenty of money. They can split the cost with the state parties. For those of you who want to complain: understand that Michigan and Florida are absolutely crucial in the GE. You can gripe all you want, but we simply cannot lose the Democratic voters in those states.

Second, and very importantly, Republicans have already voted in those states. The primaries MUST be closed. It has to be made perfectly clear that anyone who has declared as, and voted as, a Republican is ineligible to vote in the Democratic primaries. Make it a felony if you have to.

[Justitia]

10. You are clueless as to how caucuses work in my state. -eom

[LisaM]

32. Wow, what a snotty thing to say. Actually, I'm not clueless.

I don't live in Texas, but like any other person here, I informed myself on the Texas primary/caucus system. And I can tell you that any system that insists that people attend during a certain period of time is not democratic. We had caucuses in my state, and they were extremely undemocratic. You could get a proxy if you were disabled, but you couldn't get a proxy if you had to work! From what I read on the caucus portion of the Texas primary/caucus, you DID have to attend in person, and you could not get an exemption. Someone here even said that he did early primary voting, but couldn't attend the caucus because of an out-of-town business trip. So, he couldn't participate 100%.

[Justitia]

40. Have you ever PARTICIPATED in a caucus? In Texas? Then you don't know the first thing about it.

[LisaM]

43. No, but are you telling me that everyone can participate?

'cause it doesn't sound that way to me.

Why are you being so vicious? I don't like caucuses, because I think they exclude people (and not just in Texas). They are run during certain windows of time, and people who can't get there, or have to work, are left out. They generally pull in way fewer people than primaries. Perhaps you have some reason for defending them, but I think they're undemocratic and I have every right to say so. Why don't you try knocking that chip off your shoulder? I've been to plenty of caucuses and I think they suck.

[kennetha]

4. Looks Like I'm Prescient!

Check this out:

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/top_hillary_supporter_bill_nel.php">Top Hillary Supporter Bill Nelson To DNC: Time For A Florida Revote

A re-vote in Florida changes the entire narrative of this endgame. Obama won't be able to pretend that Florida and MI don't exists. And when he gets his clock cleaned, again, his always questionable claim to enjoy some kind of entitlement to have the automatic delegates move en masse to him will be severely undercut.

I still think Clinton ought to publicly advocate for the vote that has already cast to be counted.

[WilyWondr]

5. Agree with who?

Herself?

She is the only person pushing for anything else "to be done".

FL and MI changed their primary dates. They knew they wouldn't count. They changed them anyway. They will not count.

There is nothing to this story. It is a temper tantrum by the HRC campaign.



Get over it.

[kennetha]

7. What are you?

A Republican in disguise? A blind loyalist of Obama that cares more about blind ambition than democracy? To disenfranchise millions of everyday voters -- democratic voters -- for the sake of your candidate's lust for power is pretty unbecoming a true democrat, I'd say.

[TAWS]

6. Revote will not happen in Florida, no way to pay for it. n/t

[kennetha]

8. Either revote in a closed primary or seat the delegates in accordance with original!

Those are the only two options that even show a semblance of respect for the voters of Florida. If Obamaniacs persist in insisting that Florida and Michigan get no say, it will be a disaster for the party.

[seabeyond]

13. except all the voters that didnt go out because it was clear it wouldnt count

those voters dont matter?

[kennetha]

16. There was a record turn-out!

[seabeyond]

22. ya... and still there were people that did NOT vote because it did not count

what about them. fuck them?

[Rageneau]

9. Obama tells Democrats in Florida and Michigan to drop dead.

I'm writing in the political language of the moment. Of course, Obama does not REALLY want people in Florida or Michigan to drop dead, but he also doesn't seem to care if their votes get counted.

None of the VOTERS (people like you) in those two states had any say-so about when the primaries were set. So it is NOT the fault of the average Democratic voter in those states that their voices have not been heard.

A GOOD Democrat, one who was fair-minded and wanted the enfranchisement of ALL loyal Democratic voters, would be searching for some way for Florida's and Michigan's votes to count. That's what Hillary -- a fair-minded candidate -- is doing.

Meanwhile, Obama's camp would be happier if the Florida and Michigan voters just went away -- if they, for all Primaries purposes, just dropped dead.

A guy who does not want all the votes counted (remember 2000) does not want to win fair and square.

[wileedog]

31. Hillary agreed to it

"A guy (gal) who does not want all the votes counted (remember 2000) does not want to win fair and square."

SHe agreed with the deal when it was announced. She was absolutely fine with 2 states of 'disenfranchised' voters when the deal was made. Everything was 'fair and square' back then.

Now of course she desperately needs those delegates, and the whole picture changes.

[seabeyond]

11. you are fuckin using the voters again.... she can play with them a bet and be their champion

arent you even a little ashamed. that is pathetic
then promoting some more lie to add on to it making obama the bad guy

and clinton lacks the character to do just that. obviously so does the supporters

[kennetha]

15. Anybody who wants to disenfranchise voters

out of blind ambition and personal gain is the bad guy. You don't have to make him look like anything he isn't. YOu just have to show his true colors. A chicago pol in reformer's clothing.

[seabeyond]

24. to blame someone not responsible truely shows their colors and to suggest

a person wants to disenfranchise people when it is false is called a lie and character assination. firstly. it is not obama that fucked this all up. you want some votes counted yet not those that didnt vote because they thought it was a waste of time. sounds like you need to look in the mirror.

obama is saying and so is the rest of us..... if you are going to count votes then EVERYONE has to have the chance to vote, knowing it is official, and the candidates have to have a chance to run an election. really election 101 in the u.s. none of this is new stuff

but instead of fairness, you and hillary supporters are suggesting unfair in many regards then cry disenfranchise when hypocrisy, wrong, unfair is shown you.

[seabeyond]

25. further i want to know how you honorably can talk about fucking with the voter AGAIN

the florida dem has already fucked with them enough to have all of their votes not count. yet you speak of character and want to mess with them again

[MoonRiver]

12. Caucuses should be BANNED.

They are about as undemocratic a system as I can imagine. Of course, that's why BO loves them.

[JackORoses]

34. they work fine for everyone but Hillary. her support just isn't dedicated enough.

That's what happens when you run an election on name recognition.

[skooooo]

37. A long tradition in American politics..

Sorry they aren't turning out like you would like this time, but that's how the cookie crumbles. Our system has been doing this for a long time, and doesn't need to change for a bunch of whiny crybabies.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. I Don't Think She Can Beat Him 62%-38% Here

But she could give him a large blue state ala California 55% -45% whipping...

[mmonk]

17. It's not her determination to make.

[featherman]

33. Agree... not her choice to make. The state party submits a plan for

delegate selection to the DNC. The DNC accepts or rejects the plan as they did with the too early primaries. It should be remembered that several states submitted earlier than usual primary plans (like CA) that WERE accepted.

Delegate selection plans whether primaries, caucuses or conventions must meet the criteria set by the DNC. This controversy is about "too early" but another controversy could be a state party submitting a plan in which only "white, male landowners" could vote (to cite an extreme case from our past). A plan like this would be rejected by today's DNC and resulting delegate selection from such a plan considered null and void.

[AZBlue]

19. If there's a re-vote, it should be done EXACTLY the way it was planned originally.

Caucus or primary - whichever it was to begin with is how it must be re-done. YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE RULES MID-STREAM JUST BECAUSE YOU FEEL IT BETTER SUITS YOUR CANDIDATE (which hasn't even been proven, BTW).

[IamyourTVandIownyou]

20. But, Florida and Michigan already decided to have their primaries.

EARLY!

[BenDavid]

21. I beleive Senator Nelson of Florida has made it perfectly clear

there will be no damn caucuses in Florida....

[skooooo]

36. There's not going to be anything in Florida.

Because no one wants to pay for it.

[Renew Deal]

23. Hillary has won 2 primaries by 60+

So it's not very likely. Also, Obama does well wherever he campaigns. Don't forget that uncommitted got 40% in Michigan and Jesse Jackson won there. Obama would have a very good chance.

[Maribelle]

26. There is yet another point against a redo that, it seems to me, no one seems to care about.

Snowbirds are gathering for their migration north. As soon as the Red Sox, Twins, and Yankees begin to load their equipments trucks, the snowbirds begin the trek to their mating nests.

How many snowbirds voted on January 29th seems to be a stat few care about. I know from personal experience, that number is sizable on the west coast of South Florida.

[kennetha]

27. Absentee voting is the answer here

[RoadRage]

30. Honestly.. that was a point I had never even thought about!

I'm sure the answer to this is obvious.. but if you are a resident in say "MA" during the summer, and "FL" during the winter.. you can't vote in both primaries, can you? You have to declare one state your primary residence.. and vote wherever that is (assuming via absentee ballot if you're not living where you claim your primary residence to be).

[RoadRage]

29. There are a lot of Obama supporters in MI & FL

who are feeling quite disinfranchised if their states award delegates to a candidate they did not have a chance to vote against.

There are plenty in both of those states who would prefer that the votes don't count, or a new primary or caucus is run.. but ALSO disagree with just "giving" her the delegates.

Let's not forget about those folks too.. and let's stop assuming that everyone in those states is just DYING for Clinton to take delegates that she did nothing to earn. She had her name on 2 ballots. She didn't campaign.. she didn't lift a finger. She won on name recognition alone.

If you want a fair fight - i'm all for that.. but no, you don't get to win delegates because you're last name rings a bell anytime someone says "democrat".

[skooooo]

35. Too bad it's not up to her!!!!

:rofl:

[DrFunkenstein]

38. Pottery Barn Rule

They broke it. They own it.

They should go to the convention with delegates that exactly mirror the final tally, so they can show up without rewarding their voluntary rule-breaking. It was not fair of them to jump the other states and influence them, only to get a second say.

[blogslut]

39. The caucus system is hands-on democracy

Too bad your candidate doesn't fare well in them.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

42. Why waste money that could be used to beat McPain? Makes no sense.