Ya gotta love Michigan and Florida...NOT!

[Stoic]

I love these guys. They knew months in advance, and signed off on, the rules and agreements of the DNC as to when to hold their respective primaries. NO ONE put a gun to their heads to monkey-wrench the system and go out of turn. Now that the train wreck has occurred they whine that their voters will be "disenfranchised" by the big mean ol' DNC and, by proxy, Howard Dean. It's everybody else's fault that they broke the rules and are now paying the price.

It's like dealing with big WATB's. Listen, Howard Dean can't break the rules for you! Fix it yourselves!

And you gotta love how the Clinton and Obama campaigns are stepping up to help solve the problem. Really, the only one looking good in this whole mess is Dean. The man would make a good president, come to think of it.

[peace13]

1. You could see this one coming a mile away.

Hill knew that it would not count but entered the race anyway. Now she cries. What a surprise. We don't follow the laws in DC and now no law or rule is too big to break. To make matters worse the American voter is too stupid to notice.

[MonkeyFunk]

2. Howard Dean

will resolve this.

Leaving things as is isn't an option.

[tekisui]

3. The solution is in the works.

It looks like it will be a "firehouse primary" in Michigan.

Not sure about FL, they may seat as is.

[Ganja Ninja]

4. The Democratic Voters of FL & MI did not break the rules.

It was the legislatures of those states that decided to move the primaries up. You don't see the GOP trying to punish it's party members do you? They aren't the ones going through turmoil.

This whole problem was caused by the short sightedness of the DNC and Howard Dean and the Democrats look fucked up because of it.

That being said once you announce the primaries for those states don't count and then hold an election you can't go back and legitimize those primaries. We have only two choices at this point. We can hold new primaries at the Democratic party's expense or live the way things are now.

[dysfunctional press]

15. but the rules were broken in their names, by their chosen reps.

same difference.

[Ganja Ninja]

16. And some of those reps were republican.

They weren't chosen by me. Besides what business does Howard Dean have trying to punish FL & MI by disenfranchising loyal Democratic voters of those states.

Like I said you don't see the republicans going through this. Howard Dean should be fired.

[dysfunctional press]

17. what business does Howard Dean have enforcing the rules of the dnc?

ummm- he's the one IN CHARGE of enforcing the rules, and seeing to it that everyone FOLLOWS THEM.
MI & FL obviously didn't.

[Ganja Ninja]

19. Like I said I don't have a problem with living with things

as they stand, but Howard Dean and the Democratic party have no business dictating when a state should hold it's primary. That's not his job. It's up to the states. Where the hell do they come off trying to exercise that kind of power. They are the leaders of a political party, nothing more and political parties are not empowered by the constitution. It was stupid to have gone this route, it punished only loyal Democrats and it was the DNC's presumption of power that created this mess. You don't see the GOP going through this. Howard Dean or whoever laid down these rules he should be fired.

[dysfunctional press]

26. actually, it IS up to the dnc to establish the rules for choosing it's nominee.

sorry.

btw- ALL the candidates AGREED to abide by these rules.

[Ganja Ninja]

42. But it's not up to them to pick the date an election is held.

That is decided by the states under the constitution.

Oh and by the way I'm willing to live with the decisions that have been made and not seat either FL or MI delegates. In fact I think it's the only fair thing to do at this point. I just think the blame belongs with the party not the Democratic voters of FL & MI.

[dysfunctional press]

47. but they can set rules for the states to abide by when choosing their election date.

otherwise you'd end up with 50 states all clamouring to be "first".

for there to be order, there needs to be rules, and those rules need to be followed- pretty simple stuff, really.

[TheDoorbellRang]

55. The GOP punished their party members, too

The GOP delegates in FL were cut in half as punishment. It just didn't matter as much.

[cali]

62. Could you be anymore igorant?

Setting the primary rules is precisely the role of Dean and the DNC. Duh. Of course it's his job. Do try educating yourself. It's pitiful to see such ignorance here. And Dean won't be fired. Chew on that bitter pill.

[PassingFair]

The RULES COMMITTEE of the Democratic Party VOTED.

Nice try.

Republicans lost half of their delegates in Fla.

Front-loading of the primaries is a NO-NO.

[Independent-Voter]

20. Get the sand out of your drawers. If MI and FL voters didn't keep up with their legislature, fuck em

[BigDDem]

33. "fuck em"

great attitude!
Who needs Florida and Michigan anyway, right?

[Sancho]

53. I hope it happens to you...and then we'll say "fuck you" to you

Florida democratic voters have been abused more than anyone in the world in the last decade. If you think that the DU'ers wanted this mess, then you are dumb as a rock. Sorry, but that is insulting.

Our republican governor...(Jeb who?) and state legislature and a small number of stupid leaders don't speak for 1.5 MILLION voters. If you want McCain as president, then blow off Florida...hmmmm....do you remember 2000, 20004, etc....

[Birthmark]

5. You have confused the Stated party with the people.

The people did absolutely NOTHING wrong. Disenfranchising them for the actions of others, which is something the <b>Repubs</b> didn't even do, should be repugnant to anyone call themselves a Democrat. We had a record turnout here in FL and all of the candidates were on the ballot.

MI is a mess, though. Almost all of the candidates were absent from the ballot.

[michdi]

7. Michigan IS a mess!

This mess in Michigan was caused by the leaders of the state party. The governor and both state senators endorsed Clinton early, then the party hacks tried to grab more national attention for Michigan by moving up the primary. Strange that only Hillary decided to stay on the ballot, the rest followed the DNC instructions not to participate. Then the state party tried to straighten things out by putting out a press release two days before the vote telling voters that they could vote "uncommitted" if they wanted to vote for Obama or Edwards. People were so confused about what to do that when they got to the polls and saw a place on the ballot for a write-in they thought they could write in the candidate they wanted instead of checking the uncommitted spot. Poll workers at my voting place told me no one really seemed to know what they were supposed to do. This is the fault of short-sighted Michigan party leaders who now claim the DNC is trying to disenfranchise us? Howard Dean was spot-on - and there should be some heads rolling for this mess!

[Birthmark]

11. Yeah, Dean is right wrt MI

There was nothing remotely legitimate about what happened in MI. Clearly, a caucus or a real primary is called for there. But I'll leave that up to Michiganders to work out and support their decision. :)

FL, however, had a record turnout for the primary and all the candidates were on the ballot. Throwing out those 1.75 million votes is unconscionable!

[KaryninMiami]

8. That is true- it's not the fault of the people. We need a revote. Period

As for the "record turnout"-- please remember that the primary ballot included a very highly publicized referendum regarding taxes that most people didn't actually read but voted for anyway since they thought it meant their property taxes would be lowered (which is not what it meant). That has a lot to do with the "Record turnout". Many of us who did vote, did so knowing that our votes would not count towards a delegate so we voted with our hearts rather then for someone we knew could win. There was no campaigning here- except 2 fund-raisers for Hillary with media and press (she gets to break the rules but no one else can) and a few= very few- ads for Obama on CNN which were part of a national media buy which I've been told he got permission to run.

We either get a re-vote (mail in would be fine) or a caucus or they can if necessary I suppose, split the delegates from Florida in two. Otherwise, the rule needs to stay as is which sucks, since it means my vote was disenfranchised by my own party, but that's the deal.

[Birthmark]

13. Nope.

I will NOT tolerate my vote being thrown out. There is no excuse and no rational basis for it. Throw out my vote now and the Dems can count on it NOT being there in November.

[KaryninMiami]

58. No one is throwing out your vote- I just want my vote to count too-

and the only way for that to happen is in a race where we are advised from day 1, that it will count. We need a re-vote. You can vote again for your candidate- and I can vote, along with all of those who did not vote in January- for my candidate.

Why do you believe your vote matters more then mine does? Or why would yours matter more then all of the people who did not vote because they knew it wouldn't have counted anyway?

[Stoic]

10. Nevertheless

The only honest way to fix this mess is for the state parties to step up and do the right thing. Simply rubber-stamping their bad behavior is wrong for EVERYONE involved. The MI and FL Dem voters should be looking to the state parties to fix this and not the DNC.

Fercrissakes, everyone is acting like the end of civilization is at hand if the MI and FL delegates aren't seated as is. I live in Maryland and this is the first time in like forever that our primary vote actually counted for anything. MI and FL should borrow the money and hold caucuses in May or June and live with the results. Then the Democrats in each state should vote out their state party reps, at least each one that voted to hold their primaries out of schedule.

[Upfront]

6. I live in Michigan and voted.

You are correct. Dean is doing it right as always. There may be a do over but the taxpayers of Michigan will not pay for it. First, worthless joke of a primary cost 10 million. I would have voted for Edwards if allowed to. Now its Obama for me. Hillary has shown her true colors and I was watching. I think Michigan will do it again and private money will pay for it. If no money, no go.

[Birthmark]

9. Deleted

Responded to the wrong post. Sorry.

[Stoic]

12. Let me see if I got this right.

Oooops, my reply is no longer valid.

[Birthmark]

14. Sorry about that. :) nt

[PassingFair]

41. We will get a caucus.

BIG chatter.

Google michigan caucus.......

[RoadRage]

18. If they DO have Re-do's.. they shouldn't be until everyone else has gone first..

Just like the illegal immigration, illegal voting goes to the "back of the line". Every other state & territory gets to go first.. and THEN if we still need MI & FL votes to convolude this mess further, they can hold thier watevers in late June.

Hopefully this will send a nice signal to states in future primaries - don't mess around.

[eShirl]

28. good point RoadRage

"Hopefully this will send a nice signal to states in future primaries - don't mess around."

[kentuck]

21. "Rules" cannot override the right of people to have their votes counted.

Sorry. I'm sure Howard is trying to do what is right and the states did break the "rules". However, Party chiefs do not have the authority to not count votes. They must find another solution.

Florida and Michigan are different. The votes in Florida were after Obama had his landslide in South Carolina. The voters in Florida knew about him. Yet, they voted overwhelmingly for Hillary, although all the names were on the ballot. I know it may have been more fair if Obama had gotten to campaign in the state but life is not always fair. A "redo" may end up almost identical in Florida?

Michigan, however, is another story. They have a Democratic Governor. Obama was not even on the ballot. They must re-do their election. And they should have to pay for it.

[SoonerPride]

31. You endorse anarchy then.

That's what rules are for, to keep us from anarchy.

[flvegan]

22. If by Dean "looking good" in all this, you mean

DNC shill sellout, you'd be dead on.

With one national primary day, we'd have a clear cut nom and have saved MILLIONS in donated dollars to use against the GOP candidate.

But no. Not under the DNC. The same DNC that forced the candidates to sign a loyalty oath and throw their beloved voters under the bus (but give us $$$$!!!). Fuck 'em.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

23. re: Ya gotta love Michigan and Florida...NOT!

Florida had as legitimate an election as was possible under the circumstances. Our ballot had Biden, Clinton, Dodd, Edwards, Gravel, Kucinich, Obama, and Richardson on the list. There was a record turnout to vote in the election (double previous elections). The election was a closed primary held on the same day as the Republican primary to lessen tactical voting. There was plenty of coverage on the candidates, with news paper and magazine articles, radio discussion, information on the internet, and an endless bombardment of debates and media coverage leading up to the election.

Some people claim they didn't vote because they new it would not count, but any responsible citizen would have gone to the polls to at least vote on a state constitutional amendment. Even my Grandfather who is on his death bed in the hospital at the moment was able to get to the polls and cast his vote. If he was able to make time and live up to his civic duty then I'm sure many other could of as well.

The DNC made a huge miscalculation and should suck up their pride, apologize to the Democratic voters of the state of Florida, and honor our vote as it was cast with full delegate representation at the convention. If they want to punish inappropriate behavior they should revoke the rights of super delegates that are seen as the trouble makers. There is no way in hell a caucus should be held. If another primary is to be held, the Democratic party should pick up the tab, but I will see the results of a second primary as far less legitimate then the original primary. When considering Michigan, I think they should have full representation at the Convention, but knowing it is a completely different situation, I honor any resolution that the state would be happy with.

[Cass]

35. Great post - well said.

:thumbsup:

[SoonerPride]

24. Why is Florida always screwing up elections??

Is it just me or is that state always screwing up elections?

[Florida22ndDistrict]

25. It's just you...

Our election ran smooth and there was great turnout for a primary. You can sling mud all you want, but this was a result of an arrogant DNC that decided that the voters don't deserver representation. They should have focused on the troublemakers rather then inflicting collective punishment.

[SoonerPride]

27. And who exactly are they?

And what are they supposed to do to them?

Draw and quarter?

The DNC's only leverage is not seating delegates. Break the rules? Then your delegates don't count. Period.

No, I'm pretty sure Florida is always screwing up elections.

Hanging chads ad nauseum.

I blame the humidity.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

39. RE: And who exactly are they?

The DNC could have chose to not seat the super delegates at the convention, and could have supported other democrats to run for their seats when they are up for election. Just thought you should know that Florida has been a state for 163 years, and your “always” statement refers to one election. You sure love to paint broad strokes, don't you. If you hadn't noticed, the move of the primaries was attached to a bill that made Florida the first state in the nation to ban electronic voting machines and require a paper trail. We were trying to insure clean and fair elections, but the DNC feels that New Hampshire's silver spoon is more important then that. I guess you do to.

[SoonerPride]

40. No, I think rules are rules and there are penalties if you break them

I don't endorse anarchy.


And if you want to change the rules, then you work within the system to change them.

You don't do what you want and then cry when the rules are enforced.

It's a matter of chaos versus order.

Florida prefers chaos and anarchy, at least in recent memory. Maybe they were more orderly 163 years ago.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

45. RE: No, I think rules are rules and there are penalties if you break them

Ah you like order over democracy. I guess you were in favor of the supreme court passing judgment that a recount should not occur due to time frames for counting votes and you are proud that we elected George W. Bush in 2000 as a nation, because a recount that considered the voice of the people would be disorderly. Thanks for sharing your views. I'll have to politely disagree with your sentiments being that I'm American and appreciated liberty over authoritarian order.

[SoonerPride]

48. Once again, Florida was at the center of that mess too.

Weird Huh?

Seems like they're always trying to steal elections.

[PassingFair]

37. The "arrogance" was all on the side of your Mr. Nelson and your Fla. legislators.

They KNEW the rules.
The KNEW the penalties.

They said they didn't CARE if the delegates
were seated or not, THEY were going "first".

Tiny minds think that only Iowa and New Hampshire
determine our candidate. Going "first" does NOT
decide our candidate.

Front-loading the primary ensures that the most
famous name snags the nomination.

You SHOULD have been screaming your head off in AUGUST,
when YOUR legislature BLEW OFF the rules of the party.

[SoonerPride]

38. Bravo!

Exactly!

[Florida22ndDistrict]

43. RE: The "arrogance" was all on the side of your Mr. Nelson and your Fla. legislators.

You can talk garbage all you want, but the fact is the people were not asked, the state party leadership was. As a result of the ruling the people were punished, not the party leadership that agreed to the rules. You can be mad at the state party leadership all you want, but that does not justify disenfranchising the voters who played no role in reviewing or agreeing to the contract. The DNC should have noticed this, and acted accordingly.

Regarding your comment on most famous name wining, I would have to ask when was the last time someone like Kucinich did well. Lesser known candidates get eliminated almost immediately under the current system. Even with Florida going much earlier this year, the only people still in the race by the time it reached our state were Clinton, Obama, and Edwards who dropped out right after our state had voted. The only way to give lesser known candidates any hope at all would be to have a single day closed national primary.

[PassingFair]

44. That makes no sense at all...

"The only way to give lesser known candidates any hope at all would be to have a single day closed national primary."

:crazy:

There would be NO alternative to the DLC
if the primaries were all run on day one.

And you should go after your state party leadership.
Parties have RULES.
If you can't abide by the rules, perhaps you
need to look elsewhere for your candidate.

Maybe an "anarchy" party somewhere.

Or write YOURSELF in.

F22D, Party of One.....

[Florida22ndDistrict]

46. RE: That makes no sense at all...

I'm not an anarchist. I believe that having a government and rule of law is important and necessary, yet I don't see law as black and white, there are shades of gray. For example, Jim Crow Laws were law, but unjust. The protests of the civil rights era were just in my opinion. The period was quite disorderly but necessary. When injustice infringes on the basic rights and principles on which we are founded, it is our duty to shout at the top of our lungs, and demand change. We should not submit to the rules for the sake of order, we should stand by our principles and fight for what our forefathers created for us.

By the way, a single day closed national primary is far more representative of the candidates and the voters then what we currently have. In most states, voters get to chose between the lesser evil of two candidates, and many times only have the option to give a vote of confidence in the candidate that has already been chosen by previous states, or stay home from the polls. In a single day closed national primary, all candidates would be on every ballot, and every party member would have the opportunity to voice their opinion. Far less campaign dollars would be needed for such an event, but more would be needed early in. This gives rise to the possibility that more candidates would chose public financing over special interest fund raising. Overall it would be a much healthier way to run our elections.

[PassingFair]

50. We disagree.

Candidates can remain on the ballot if choose.

A one-day process would be an anointing
of the candidate with the "biggest brand".

We clearly disagree on this.

:hi:

[Florida22ndDistrict]

52. RE: We disagree.

Well we can agree to disagree, but I don't see why you assume it would be a dead giveaway if there was a single day closed national primary. I figure it would run something like this: December 31 of the previous year would be the deadline to be on all state ballots. June 1 all Democrats across the nation go to the polls for a National Primary. In the 5 months in between they have a series of debates throughout the nation. Each debate should be focused on a topic where the candidates actually debate their policy strategies on particular issues that will be part of the Democratic platform. Each candidate campaigns and fund raises across the nation based on their own strategies. Then we all vote, and who ever wins wins. There would be time to get to know the different candidates, and people would actually get to vote for their candidate of choice for a change.

[PassingFair]

54. Because nobody really pays attention until the voting starts.

"Branding" will be the name of the game.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

56. Do you see the current system as free of branding?

Branding is a basic marketing technique and is used to sell everything. This year the most successful brand is Hope and Change brought to you by Obama for America who's headquarters are located in Chicago, Illinois.

[PassingFair]

57. Yes, as the voting goes on, the VETTING begins. n/t

[Florida22ndDistrict]

59. RE: Yes, as the voting goes on, the VETTING begins.

Well my opinion concerning the current method, is that a few small sparsely populated homogeneous states pick which George Foreman Grill the rest of us are allowed to buy into, and the rest of us are forced to watch reruns of the same unsatisfying product until we become disenchanted with politics.

[PassingFair]

60. Well, we are certainly seeing that the states that go first don't necessarily...

decide who the nominee is...

I think the process show us a lot about our candidates.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

61. re:

Well I have no wish for my state to be first, or to be the state who decides for all others, I just want every state to have the same opportunity to vote for their candidate of choice out of the same pool of candidates. I also want all candidates to be able to have that opportunity to be voted for. As you may know Florida was the 6th state to vote this year, voting only 26 days after the first state, and all with the exception of three candidates had been eliminated by the preceding states. The supper Tuesday states only had 2 candidates. You hear a lot of growning everywhere you go about people being on the second candidate of choice, their fifth candidate of choice, their last choice, or not liking their options at all. Do you think that this is healthy for democracy? Could this partially explain why there is low turnout in general elections compared to other nations?

[cali]

63. Fuck that. Florida agreed to the schedule and then went back on it

As usual that cesspool of a state screwed up big time. And it was a dem that introduced the earlier date in the leg, and dems blithely went along with the repukes. I'm so sick of thw whining and squealing of a hillbots and Floridians here. They aren't so special that they get to cheat with impunity. Thankfully, Dean won't let them.

[spoony]

29. By the way, congrats on bringing back "...not!" sarcasm, very retro

Maybe next you can work in "psych!"

[SoonerPride]

32. That coat is NOT black.

:)

[spoony]

36. I will look on your treasures, gypsy. Is this understood?

:rofl:

[calico1]

30. I really don't know what the right solution is but I do

know this: it is NOT a good idea to piss off the voters of Michigan and Fl and basically tell them to go to hell because they don't count. Can you imagine how that will play in the GE? I can just see it now. Perfect stump speech for MCcain. "The Democrats think you don't count. Well I think you do and I think your vote is important."

Yes there was a major screw up but the voters are victims here. It was not in their hands. And regardless of the what or how or why the bottom line is a lot of people are going to feel angry and disenfranchised. And they are going to be angry at the Democratic party. This needs to be fixed.

We need to look at the big picture. We are talking about two major states. One that can be in play and one that should go to us. And more importantly, both are ELECTORALLY RICH states. This isn't RI and HI we are talking about.

This is already a very contentious race and no matter who gets the nomination the party will come out somewhat damaged from this. The last thing we need to do is to say FUCK YOU to two states that we will need to have in play in NOV. Because anyone who thinks that this election will be a cakewalk is living in fantasyland.

[dysfunctional press]

34. "It's like dealing with big WATB's..."

what's a WATB?

:shrug:

[Utopian Leftist]

49. Amen

A rule is a rule. You DON'T change the rules AFTER the game begins, especially not when they only benefit one of the players!

I know it may have been more fair if Obama had gotten to campaign in the state but life is not always fair.

What utter nonsense and circular logic. Life is not always fair, therefore the Democrats have no responsibility to run a fair election? Bullshit! The voters in those states only have their elected officials to blame and if they don't like it, then they need to throw the bums out and elect others. Because if there are no enforceable rules about primary dates, then we'll end up in a situation where the whole country votes two years before the election even occurs.

You Hillary supporters show your true colors every time you attempt to change the rules and every time she moves the goal post to wherever the hell her whim dictates.

[nickinSTL]

51. I agree that it's the fault of thestate parties...however...

it's the people of both states who want to vote in the Democratic primary and have their votes count who are being punished. That is wrong. And stupid, IMO.

Not only are you putting party politics ahead of the people, and their right to be counted, but doing this will alienate voters who would otherwise vote for the Dem nominee in November. After being treated like this by the Democratic Party, though...a lot of those votes may be lost.

Punish the party leaders. They broke the rules. But find a way to do it without disenfranchising the Democratic voters in two important states.