I just sent Obama an email asking him not to use my donations for a redo in FL and MI.

[dkf]

These states need to be responsible for their own screwup. This means the party apparatus in their state needs to come up with a plan and fund it or shut up already.

Then if the candidates are unhappy with what the states are able to afford, they can pitch in the extra to make something more elaborate work.

If Hillary needs an expensive primary, she should fund it herself.

[NightWatcher]

1. they cannot count those two states

under the argument of "let their voice count"....

What about the states that hold primaries long after the nominee is picked. Most years states like North Carolina, Mississippi, Wyoming and others dont really count because normally the nominee might have already won.

I do not want to see those states come in to play especially as late as Mid June.

[DrDan]

3. absolutely - screw those few million voters

who needs 'em

our 48-state policy (plus PR and Guam) should dictate the nominee.

after all, these voters decided to move up the election - let 'em lie in their own waste.

What? It wasn't the voters? It was the repub legislature - with the help of the D's?

Oh well - screw 'em anyway . . .

[NightWatcher]

8. what about the states who voice doesnt usually count anyway?

several states hold primaries after the nominee has already been picked.

What about them?

As for your second point, yes it was the repukes who bullied the dem party and moved the dates up. I hope that with a powerful democratic win in november, dozens of representatives will ride the wave of Obama into office and we will be able to take back the party from within.

We are all on the same team here. It is just a difficult problem we face with FL and MI

[DrDan]

30. no - we are not all on the same team

the DNC, the state party, Hillary, and Obama all decided that Florida and Michigan D's need not be heard. (Yes - I know there are others who agreed to withdraw from the ballot)

But - if both Hillary and Obama decided that the voices of Fl and MI can be cast aside during the primary season, then why should those of us voting in Fl and MI vote for either of them?

[RaleighNCDUer]

80. Yoou are so fucking wrong.

At ANY time the state parties could have backed away from their date change. The DNC offered financial assistance to help them do it, to preserve the integrity of the schedule that had been agreed on for well over a year. But the DLCers thought they could game the system and make Dean look like the bad guy, and THEY decided that their voters not be heard.

Blame the republicans for strongarming the state dems into cooperating; blame the state dems for not playing by the rules - do NOT blame either candidate, or the DNC.

[DrDan]

84. sorry - just do not see it your way

Dean could have fixed it before it became an issue - he elected not to. I will continue to fault him and the DNC.

I also fault obama and hillary (among others). They were as much a part of disenfranchising FL and MI voters as the DNC and state party.

Believe it or not - like it or not - Florida remains one of the 50. And the electors count. And they are pissed.

[GarbagemanLB]

I'm not against a re-do, but their delegates sure as hell won't be seated 'as is'.

[DrDan]

32. of course not - screw 'em

[RaleighNCDUer]

79. That's "with the help of the DLCs". nt

[Birthmark]

2. Thanks.

I appreciate your support of the DNC's disenfranchising me for something I played no part in. FL had a primary with record turnout and a ballot on which ALL the candidates appeared.

Now, how is it that your candidate gets my vote in November?

[dkf]

6. Your state disenfranchised you.

Take it up with them. They can make it right if they want to. Why don't you call your state party and make a donation for a revote fund? Or maybe your Dem party can start a fund and see what they can afford. But if you don't do it now, you won't make it in time.

All I know is I shouldn't be paying for your states screwup. I had less to do with it than you did.

[Birthmark]

7. Completely untrue. You spout propaganda.

The DNC decided to disenfranchise me.

Now, the State Party broke the rules, but the DNC could have resolved the situation any number of ways or imposed any number of sanctions. They went right to disenfranchising ME. Even the Repubs didn't do that to their members!

[dkf]

14. Nobody is stopping your state from a redo.

If your state won't do it, aren't they disenfranchising you?

Damn you really do expect me to pay for this don't you? Unbelievable.

[Birthmark]

16. There is no such thing as a "redo"

And there is no valid reason for a new primary. None. We had a record turnout with all the candidates appearing on the ballot. That should be respected.

[Occam Bandage]

19. There are three valid reasons for a new primary.

1. To maintain some form of punishment for FL/MI's rulebreaking.
2. The candidates were not allowed to campaign beforehand. Campaigning changes things.
3. Voters were told their votes would not count for anything. Turnout was likely affected.

[Birthmark]

29. Let me address your nonsense point-by-point.

1. To maintain some form of punishment for FL/MI's rulebreaking.

There are other forms of punishment available. The heavy-handed disenfranchisement of the PEOPLE of FL is an inappropriate response that targets the innocent.

2. The candidates were not allowed to campaign beforehand. Campaigning changes things.

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But it's rather a silly point since we all knew the major players.

3. Voters were told their votes would not count for anything. Turnout was likely affected.

"Likely, affected?" That is a guess. I have seen absolutely no evidence that turnout was affected. Turnout was 133% higher this year than in 2004. That's a greater percentage increase than in NY. Was NY affected, too? lol

[dkf]

36. "I have seen absolutely no evidence that turnout was affected."-HA!

I bet if we have another primary turnout will exceed the 1st.

You honestly don't think so?

C'mon admit it. You know you are wrong here doncha?

[Birthmark]

40. So, you have no evidence.

Not a problem. I've looked at the numbers and knew that already.

Your hypothetical justification by "the future" (a future that isn't going to happen) is as laughable as it is unpersuasive.

[dkf]

56. Well Hillary isn't going for a caucus and "as is" is a nogo

I'm guessing primary or nothing.

If we do have a primary I'd like to make a bet that turnout will exceed the first one. You game?

I do like my odds.

[Birthmark]

60. Game for what?

Betting on the outcome of something that isn't going to happen seems a bit like derivatives. lol

But if it makes you feel better to *believe* that, have at it.

[dkf]

68. Bet contingent upon a primary.

Nothing to lose if a primary doesn't happen.

[VolcanoJen]

31. That's exactly right.

And another thing that nobody ever seems to bring up... why the hell couldn't Michigan and Florida just wait their turn? Hindsight may be 20/20, but these two states are just looking really trigger-happy at this point.

Their initial argument (that Iowa and New Hampshire were too small and not diverse enough to choose our nominee) has not played out. The state Democratic leaders were looking into some kind of crystal ball, and it was a stupid thing to do.

At this point, freaking Guam has more prestige than these states. If Michigan and Florida had played by the rules and waited to have their primary later, they'd have had the same amount of influence as Ohio and Pennsylvania.

As an Ohioan, I'm proud of my state leadership for holding our fire. They gambled that this primary was going to be a long one. They were right.

[DrDan]

37. but campaign they did - Obama's TV ad ran in Florida

[dkf]

39. Absolutely no GOTV efforts. That put Obama at a real disadvantage.

Not fair at all.

[Birthmark]

42. Obama's right to GOTV > Floridians right to vote

Noted.

[dkf]

48. You can still vote. Make it happen. Donate your time and your money

to make sure you get a vote that counts!

Do it people!!!

[Birthmark]

53. Already voted.

I'm not inclined to participate in the DNC's disenfranchisement of FL voters. They did the wrong thing. When they seat the delegates, though, they can count on me to support whatever *appropriate* response to the FDP leadership that they care to take.

But I will NOT accept throwing out 1.75 million votes based on the DNC's hurt feelings. In fact, as an American I CAN not accept it.

[dkf]

59. Ah, so you don't want a redo then? Figures.

So why are you getting on my case then? I just want a redo that isn't funded by me. My part in this seems to be moot since you don't want a redo anyway.

[Birthmark]

61. There is no such thing as a redo

It will be a NEW primary. The vote I've cast will be thrown away. It is still disenfranchisement.

[dkf]

22. How many people stayed home because the rules said those

votes didn't count? If you get what you want they would be disenfranchised.

Hell I guess this means if someone wants to hold their primary election 2 years before the general they can do whatever they want to as long as everyone is too afraid to "disenfranchising" their voters.

If we do this for you, next election Florida is going 1st because they outchickened the party.

[Birthmark]

33. As near as I can tell none.

Or to put it more accurately, there is no evidence that any non-trivial number of voters stayed home. That assertion is a talking point that is unsupported by any evidence.

[Occam Bandage]

18. Nope. Those were the rules that were on the books beforehand. In fact, your state party

was repeatedly warned that disenfranchisement would occur. 50 out of 50 state parties agreed to those conditions and agreed to the schedule beforehand, and 48 out of 50 agreed to strip MI and FL of their delegates in accordance with the rules. The DNC even offered to pay for a re-caucus if they'd cancel the primary.

Saying "the DNC disenfranchised me" is wrong. Your state party did. Vote them out of office if you don't like it.

[Birthmark]

21. You make my point.

The DNC immediately went nuclear on the PEOPLE of FL rather than allot retaliation to where it was due. The DNC *chose* to disenfranchise me. If they stick by that, then they will lose FL in November. Your rationalizations are useless.

[Occam Bandage]

24. Immediately? Chose? The rules were on the books beforehand, the punishment was

pre-set, and the DNC repeatedly warned the states that disenfranchisement would occur.

Your logic is this: A criminal decides to commit a felony. He announces this plan. The police warn him that if he does so, he will become a felon and lose his right to vote. He announces he will anyway. The police ask him not to, and offer a compromise by which he commits a misdemeanor. He goes ahead and commits a felony. He loses his right to vote. He then complains that the state "went nuclear on him" and "disenfranchised him."

[Birthmark]

35. Stop spinning.

The real analogy is a criminal commits a crime and the police arrest his family. Anyone who supports that...well, you can fill in the rest.

[DrDan]

38. the DNC disenfranchised me . . .

it was there rule - and they were once again one-upped by the repubs.

[dkf]

44. You can do something about it instead of crying to us.

Call your state party. Tell them you'd like a primary and you will help fund it. Get your friends and neighbors to call also.

Make it happen since you are so upset.

Have you done anything yet? What kind of efforts have you made I would like to know.

[Birthmark]

50. If you're in favor of that, you do it.

In the meantime, I'll do what I think is right: That is, seating FL's delegates.

[dkf]

64. I'm cool with seating FLs delegates after a legit vote.

Why should I care more about getting you a vote than you are?

Damn you want me to pay for it and do all your work. What is up with that?

[Birthmark]

69. Pay for what?

There is simply no rational reason for a new primary. Our primary had a record turnout. Hard to get more legitimate than that.

So, there is nothing to pay FOR. Use the money and buy your SO something nice.

[DrDan]

51. not that I need to answer to you . . .

but yes - I have been active . . . .

and no - I feel no need to explain the actions to you . . . but they have involved other voters as well as public contact . . .

[Birthmark]

47. Heart-breaking, isn't it?

It's a bad day when we have to admit that the Repubs treated their voters more liberally than the Democratic Party.

[DrDan]

49. got that right!

[dkf]

52. Stop crying already and get your people to redo the vote.

Playing victim never got anything done.

[Birthmark]

55. Tell that to the DNC! lol

Poor little dears got ignored and it hurt their feelings. Of course, the only response is to disenfranchise the innocent.

The fact that you defend it should bother you...at least a little.

[leftofcool]

70. It scares the hell out of me!

[leftofcool]

20. And as a voting Democrat for many years

let me be the first to apologize for our party's blatent disregard of one of the first and finest principles this country was founded upon........"no taxation without representation" and "one man, one vote."

Left of Cool

[dkf]

23. The delegate process is contrary to "one man, one vote"

as is this entire process.

Primaries are run by the party using party rules. Geez.

[leftofcool]

27. But

one man one vote at least keeps people from feeling as though they have been disenfranchized. The entire process is certainly flawed but since it is what/all we have, everyone should be able to have a say.

[dkf]

28. Yeah but in this era of superdelegates trying to assert one man one vote is a joke.

[leftofcool]

57. Not a joke

if you use the phrase to mean inclusive

[dkf]

74. Thats kind of weak. jmo.

[DrDan]

41. bingo - you nailed it Left of Cool

[leftofcool]

65. Every voice heard

I would be pissed if my state or the DNC set rules that disenfranchised my vote, especially since my state runs blue by a tiny margin.

Left of Cool

[DrDan]

58. what REALLY PISSES ME OFF

is the large number of holier-than-thou posters at this site - who claim to follow Democratic principles - and who are not outraged that voters from 2 states are stripped of their voice.

Had a rule been made to take away the votes of women or blacks - they would be lined up in blind obedience shouting "follow the rules" . . .

Those have no right to the bandwidth of DU.

[spoony]

63. Mostly they are Obama supporters who are willing to throw millions overboard

for the sake of their candidate. Hmm, trying to suppress votes so their guy can win. Hmm, where have I heard that before...maybe about eight years or so ago...

Don't get me wrong, I like Obama. It's his fanatics I don't particularly like, especially when they're trying to toss out whole states of Democrats.

[Birthmark]

66. That's a conclusion that I'm trying to avoid reaching

But I admit it's getting harder and harder to avoid it. I don't like the implications.

[leftofcool]

73. I fear that Democrats

have played right into Republican hands. Florida-stolen votes in 2000 disenfranchisement in 2008

[dkf]

76. Did I say that FL and MI shouldn't get to vote?

No. This whole disenfranchisement thing is so weak when people could do something about it and chose not to.

The earlier elections are invalid as they were not done in line with party rules. That can't be helped. So find something that works.

[Birthmark]

62. I thought it was "one man, one vote...

...unless someone in your state does something that the Party doesn't like, in which case we'll take it out on YOU?" lol

[leftofcool]

67. ?

elaborate please

[DrDan]

34. nope - will just use my GE vote appropriately

and it will probably have nothing to do with the DNC choice . . .

[spoony]

45. Isn't it nice being told over and over that you don't matter?

Personally I never tire of it. I love fellow Dems telling me I don't deserve a voice because of something other people did.

[Birthmark]

71. It's like talking to ex- , isn't it? nt

[Irishonly]

77. There Are Two Sides

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1888

Florida and Michigan broke the rules. If you are unhappy and you should be, take it up with Bill Nelson and your state democrats. When they knew the consequences why did they forge ahead? Why did they agree to the primary date in the first place? I think this debacle makes the case either for a national primary or rotating primaries. I would be mad also but I would direct my anger at who created the mess in the first place and it wasn't the DNC.

[CookCountyResident]

4. What would stop....

the Republicans from crossing over heavily anyway, especially since their primary ostensibly is done already?

[leftofcool]

5. I don't think you have to worry

The states won't count, the voters will feel disenfranchised and both states will go to McCain. Republican work at it's finest. They had to steal Florida in 2000, this time, just disenfranchize the voters.

[dkf]

9. Why don't they put the blame where it belongs.

Breaking the rules and then expecting everyone to accomodate you and bail you out is wrong.

These states decided they would break the rules because they could. That is wrong. My state wanted to be earlier too but we listened to the rules and we went later. Thank goodness my state leaders can follow rules.

[Tarc]

15. Tough titty says the kitty

Ignoring Florida and Michigan entirely will doom whichever of the two wins the primaries, as it will be easy fodder for McCain to use in the fall. The voters should not be disenfranchised because of the wrongs of the state party.

[dkf]

25. I'm not saying Florida and Michigan shouldn't redo their vote.

I think they should.

I'm just saying Obama shouldn't pay for it with the money I donated.

[The_Casual_Observer]

10. HE pissed your last donation away in Ohio, so you do have cause

for concern.

[dkf]

17. Ha, my $ is still in his bank account.

which I would prefer to be used fighting McCain, but now has to go to fight Double Suicide Hillary.

[NDambi]

11. Be mad at your representatives....not the DNC ..and...

Unless they can come up with a fair and equitable way to handle this issue that is agreeable to all...things are going to get real hecitc and you can bet, the Dems will really be in trouble.

I know Dems in ready mode now...waiting to pounce on any unfairness. I mean some are talking about taking it to the street with demonstrations and protests, and I'm in that group. We will organize and protests to the cows come home.

So for those that think, this is just a little adjustment and can be overcome with a snap of the fingers, think again.

Many are prepared to do battle over it, at the first hint of unfairness.

[DrDan]

46. we have already gone beyond a "hint" of unfairness . . .

millions of once-again disenfranchised Florida voters

and . . . . this will not be forgotten during the GE.

[NDambi]

72. Well, I promise you it won't be forgotten if there is some Bullshit pulled either..

so let's concede to the repugs now..and get it over with

[DrDan]

78. pulled by whom?

are you suggesting we not only have our primary voice stripped - but we must also blindly follow the will of the DNC?

otherwise, there will be hell-to-pay?

not sure I understand your post.

[NDambi]

81. Pulled by Hillary, her cohorts, the super delegates and the rethugs..

I'll stay home, as will many others I know..

[DrDan]

82. and . . .

do you not think that will be the result if the delegates are not seated?

of course, I would not expect you to care. Just saying there will be lots staying and home and worse under the current situation.

[NDambi]

83. and I don't expect you to understand my point of view...so what

[navarth]

12. The complaint should be with the state party. They broke the rules. They were warned.

I voted in Michigan and I don't feel disenfranchised by the national party. Our people here and those in Fla. knew what they were doing. I was against it, I knew what would happen.

If my vote doesn't count, I'll blame the state party. What were they thinking? Stupid, stupid.

[Adelante]

13. I will do the same

I consider the idea extortion.

[VolcanoJen]

26. Excellent idea.

I just did the same thing. :thumbsup:

If the states can't afford to pay for a mulligan primary, then just have a damned firehouse caucus and be done with it. Of course Clinton hates caucuses, because she hasn't figured out how to win them. That's not Obama's problem, and it's not the peoples' problem, either.

[spoony]

43. I'm sure he'll personally put it aside.

I presume you signed it, "Sincerely, Moran"?

[BigDDem]

54. Please let us know his email response back to you...

:rofl:

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

75. Agreed. If Hillary wants to break the rules, let her pay.