Was BO unfairly disadvantaged in FLA becasue FLA voters were told that their votes wouldn't count?

[aquarius dawning]

Poll question: Was BO unfairly disadvantaged in FLA becasue FLA voters were told that their votes wouldn't count?

I believe that it is impossible to argue that he was and, as such, a do-over now is nothing more than giving him an unfair advantage. There's no reason to believe that voters who stayed home were disproportionately supporters of Barack Obama. All things were equal and Hillary won. End of story.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. Was HRC disdvantaged because they finally counted CA fairly?

stop with this shit. your team, despite saying things far worse, lying, cheating, and more, got your pound of blood and flesh today.

I am really beginning to HATE her campaign and the people involved in it.

[madfloridian]

2. So am I.

.

[VolcanoJen]

75. As am I.

.

[MH1]

81. Count me in on that sentiment.

[aquarius dawning]

4. I'm talking about Florida here. I don't even know what you're talking about.

fact is, you can not convince me that barack obama was unfairly disadvantaged in the Florida primary election. All things were equal and Hillary won fairly and squarely. You can vote yes all you want but you can't back up your vote with any kind of objective evidence. there is no reason for a do-over otehr than to give Barack Obama an unfair advantage.

And, FWIW, I'm way past hating the BO campaign and the people involved in it so welcome to my world.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

8. stop your world. I want to get off.

if she is the Dem nominee, I cannot in good faith vote for someone who will behave like that in office and ruin not just the Democratic party, but our very democracy. She is evil, she is a monster, and I will never vote for her. ever.

[aquarius dawning]

12. Then you need to leave this forum right fucking now because you aren't a democrat.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

18. the problem is SHE IS NO EFFIN DEMOCRAT. No democrat

would dare praise the GOP candidate while attacking a fellow democrat. No democrat would lie about NAFTA, while her campaign did precisely what she bitched about and lied about what Obama allegedly did.

Hillary is not worthy of the office. nor is she worthy of this party.

[aquarius dawning]

23. She has nearly 50% of the popular vote so piss off with that logic.

[papau]

57. Hillary noted the public sees McCain as CinC - but not Obama - deal with it

[leftynyc]

68. Hitler was evil

Stalin was evil, Pol Pot was evil. Your hyperbole is infantile.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

69. Hillary is

not a mass murderer, although she voted for us to invade and occupy a nation illegally, based on lies. is the blood of 1,000,000 Iraqis on her hands? you betcha. Did she do her sworn duty as a senator and investigate and look behind the spin? Never.

she is guilty of something, and it ain't pretty.

[leftynyc]

71. Did Sen Obama

investigate? Did he vote to stop funding? Has he done anything other than talk about ending this farce of a war?

Frankly, I don't love either candidate - my point was that hyperbole doesn't help the situation at all and we should save words like evil for those who truly deserve it.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

79. your post makes a lot of sense, and that is nice to see here, given

some of the more outrageous crap that is coming up.

My first choice was Biden, then Edwards. I would still put either one of them up there, (and Al Gore) as superb presidential caliber.

[NDambi]

9. fact is, you can not convince me that barack obama was unfairly disadvantaged in the Florida primary

So, why ask then?

duh

[papau]

58. it is a silly question - given the tax question on the ballot that got everyone out to vote

[RaleighNCDUer]

30. It's simple. Look at the history of this campaign.

In absolutely every contest Hillary started as the clear front-runner in the polls. And everywhere there has been a primary or caucus, where the two candidates have gone head to head, her 'name recognition' advantage evaporated in the three weeks immediately prior to the voting. Some places, like NH, she won, going from a 20 point lead to a 2 point victory - others, she lost, losing so much of her lead that Obama won. Where did this NOT happen? Arkansas, her home state. Michigan, where he did not campaign and was not on the ballot. Florida, where he did not campaign. In those 3 places, she retained the 'name recognition' lead into the voting. Every other contest, win or lose, she had to fight for what she got.

In the real world, unlike here, most people don't pay enough attention until it is in their faces - until the candidates are knocking at THEIR doors. So even though the campaign has been going on for decades, now, most people "know" Hillary and "don't know" Obama - and they vote for what they know. That only changes when the candidates actually campaign.

Could he win FL, going against the DLC machine there? I don't know. But he sure as hell deserves the chance to try.

[GOTV]

37. I would feel dissed if I were told my state didn't count....

... so I didn't vote
and then they said "Psyche!"

[AikidoSoul]

66. All cadidates were penalized but Hillary fared best

because of name recognition.

Early primary penalties meant that the presidential candidates were not allowed to campaign in FL prior to the primary. Obama, Edwards and Kucinich did not have their troops on the ground.

Hillary fared best.

The only way it could become fair is if the election was run again in FL -- but FL officials don't want to PAY for it. No... they want to get off scott free even though they knew they were breaking the rules.

Hillary benefitted. Period.

[Fovea]

67. On Monday

we expect you to donate your work for free.
And that will be the day we do your performance evaluation on the sly.

But it should not matter that we are not going to pay you.
You should give 150% even if there is no payday, because, hey, it might count.

[MagickMuffin]

84. Well, only 41.8% went to the polls

Not a large turn out if you ask me.

http://doe.dos.state.fl.us/elections/resultsarchive/Ind...

It doesn't appear a whole lot of people got the chance to vote, only 41.8% of voters voted in the primary.

You can view the stats by using the pulldown menu in the left column, statewide/district.

[MH1]

80. delete - wrong place

[MoonRiver]

3. Of course not.

There's no reason to believe that more Obama supporters stayed home than Clinton supporters. As I mentioned on another thread, it was a level playing field. Award the Florida delegates, NOW.

[tabatha]

5. He was disadvantged because there was no CAMPAIGNING.

And if you think that is not true, then we should stop all campaigning and advertising.
Just think of all the money that would be saved.

[aquarius dawning]

7. Nobody else campaigned either though so it wasn't a disadvantage.

They were all equally disadvantaged; therefore, nobody was disadvantaged. All things were equal. Hillary won. saeat the delegates as is. End of story.

[gravity]

15. Umm, Hillary had the advantage

by having the name Hillary Clinton and attracting attention from the media for the past 15 years

[aquarius dawning]

22. so what. That's not an unfair advantage, that's life. you don't get a do-over because of that

All things were equal and she won fairly and squarely. You can't have a do-over now because your chances of doing better have improved. are you nuts? What kind of Democracy would that be?

[gravity]

25. It is an unfair advantage

It is like a race between and incumbant and a new challenger with no campaigning. Of course the incumbant is going to win no matter what.

Not to mention, people were told their votes weren't going to count anyways. This wasn't a legitimate election no matter how you spin it.

[GOTV]

38. When the rules change, you get a do-over n/t

[Vinca]

11. Exactly. Why else did he move up 20 pts. in Texas and Ohio?

Campaigning. They will claim, of course, the one ad that ran in the Carolinas spilled over into Florida and that's his campaigning. Baloney. Can you imagine the argument if Obama had the majority of delegates in Florida? They'd be sitting on the steps of the Supreme Court ready to stop them from counting.

[aquarius dawning]

16. so what. this eelction was fair at the time and you don't get a do-over now

because it gives you an unfair advantage over your opponent. No fucking way.

[Vinca]

29. What if they do a recount and Obama has more votes than Hillary? nt

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

17. Exactly. Everywhere Obama campaigns, he closes the gap with Hillary

[Florida22ndDistrict]

24. RE: He was disadvantged because there was no CAMPAIGNING.

So you assume that the people of Florida are unable to understand a candidates positions by:

Reading over the candidates website
Reading articles about the candidate in newspapers and magazines
Listening to candidates speeches on the radio, television, and youtube
Listening to the candidates positions in the 20+ televised debates this primary cycle
Listening to sounds bites constantly from every media network in America

Well are you? Would negative campaign ads run on local television, a bunch of junk mail, and a few rallies really made that much of a difference? No. The only thing that negatively tinged the Florida primary were sound bites of Howard Dean stating that the delegates would not be seated, and even then more then two times the normal turnout was still seen.

[dysfunctional press]

28. how else do you explain how obama manages to close the gap every time...

when he's been able to campaign?

:shrug:

[Florida22ndDistrict]

36. re: how else do you explain how obama manages to close the gap every time...

Clinton naturally had an advantage in Florida due to a larger elderly population who are concerned with health care, as well as a large former New York population who generally favor Clinton. The reason why Obama did bad, is because people still had the option of selecting Edwards, but now that his campaign is suspended, Obama supporters want to go back and capture that 14%. Honor the vote as it was cast. A revote would be far less legitimate then the one that already took place.

[aquarius dawning]

40. You can't jump in the same river twice, especially this river.

It's a subjective hypothesis which can't be used retrospectively to justify a do-over. Every candidate was on the ballot. The playing field was perfectly level and Hillary won by a large margin. No do-over. Seat the delegates now.

[dysfunctional press]

60. sorry- but you can't change the rules midstream just to benefit yourself*.

*unless of course, your name is clinton.

[aquarius dawning]

74. OK, no bitching about superdelegates then

[GOTV]

39. Campaigns make a difference. Did you just fall to earth? n/t

[Florida22ndDistrict]

65. RE: Campaigns make a difference. Did you just fall to earth? n/t

Statistically direct mail is only read by around 1% of the people it is sent to. Political rallies are generally only attended by die hard voters that support the candidate or lean in there direction. Rallies mainly serve as publicity stunts to get air time on TV and radio. Both candidates bombarded Florida voters with publicity stunts. I know negative campaign ads have an effect on a lot of people, but I'm glad I didn't have them spaming my television this year. I did however see several of these commercials by both candidates on CSPAN's Washington Journal. The main tool of campaigning that is effective is canvasing, but that is more of a get out the vote thing. If you looked at the numbers you would know that double the normal turnout for a primary occurred this year, so I don't think canvasing would have been that big of a deal. People were tuned in this year, and it shows across the nation.

[Kittycat]

6. I heard all sorts of callers claiming they didn't vote and friends didn't vote

Because they didn't have any reason to, since they weren't homeowners, and their presidential vote wouldn't count. It wasn't worth them taking off work for it.

[aquarius dawning]

10. And I suppose you're going to try to tell us that they were all barack obama supporters?

and therefore a do-over is fair? Sorry, but there's absolutely no reason to believe that's the case.

[RaleighNCDUer]

34. I think it is not unreasonable to expect that Hillary's middle-aged

working class base is liklier to be home owners than Obama's young, largely student base. They would have more reason to show at the polls.

[GOTV]

42. I don't know but if we re-vote we could find out. n/t

[Kittycat]

59. No, actually they were supporters of all candidates.

And the rules are the rules, michigan broke them. They're lucky to have a chance at a do-over, but I think that's the right thing to do.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

31. RE: I heard all sorts of callers claiming they didn't vote and friends didn't vote

You don't need to be a homeowner to vote on a state constitutional amendment. If you are a responsible citizen you should be concerned about your state's constitution. You also have an interest in property taxes if you rent. Higher property taxes affect the cost of residential rent as well as commercial rent. A change in taxation could affect a renter's cost of living, or a businesses operating cost. High property taxes also affect the availability of properties for rent. If property taxes are too high, an investor will dump his real estate to reinvest in a more lucrative market, meaning that rent skyrockets and affordable housing is hard to come by. A citizen should also be interested in where their government is going to collect its revenue so they can understand what public services may suffer or benefit from a change. Them not voting because they are not homeowners is flat out irresponsible.

[SKKY]

13. Of course. Those are the only 2 states were Republican voters outnumbered Democratic Voters...

...Every other state has had more democratic voters almost 2 and 3 to 1. Democratic voters stayed home because they were told their votes would not count. Those who did vote did so out of protest against their state officials, I'm guessing.

[Big Blue Marble]

14. So a nice little push poll.

Really cute. You are making things up out of whole cloth. How very Hillary of you.

[aquarius dawning]

27. It's a fact that the playing field was level. Neither candidate campaigned in Florida

all names were on the ballot. record numbers of people showed up. hillary won. A do-over now amounts to nothing more than handing an unfair advantage over to barack obama. There are no do-overs in a democracy and especially when there is no reason to have one.

[Big Blue Marble]

33. You are right that you cannot step into the same river twice.

But an election without a campaign is not a fair airing of the issues. Wherever Obama has campaigned including Ohio and Texas,
his support increases. When people in a state hear his message, the dynamic is changed. He did not have that opportunity in
Florida. And for that matter neither did Hillary. I actually feel that it might be to HRC's advantage to redo the election in Florida.
The demographics of the state more match her constituencies than his. IMO, it is very likely she would win the state.

Never the less in the interest of democracy, I, still, think it would be better to give the voters of Florida a real chance to participate
in this dynamic and extremely important process.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

73. RE: I, still, think it would be better to give the voters of Florida a real chance to participate

Yeah right... Lets eliminate 6 out of the 8 choices we had, allow republicans to switch parties and tactical vote for whom they want, and have the media tell us that one candidate has already been crowned and that we should support him/her around June. Sounds real democratic to me. We had a real opportunity to vote already and we took it at double the rate we have in previous primary elections. Large numbers of us turned out to vote. Our vote was recorded but the DNC refuses to accept it.

[jlake]

19. Why would BO be unfailry disatvantaged? Were his supporters specifically targeted

while Hillary's supporters were told that it would count? NO!
Meanwhile, the only candidate to campaign in FL was OBAMA!
Seat Florida NOW!

[sdfernando]

35. So you are willing to disenfranchise all who stayed home...

no matter who they would vote for because you believe the outcome would be the same? Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. You have no way to prove the percentages would stay the same, you're simply taking it on faith they would not change.

There is also the matter of the rules of the game. All parties, every single one of them, campaigns, state parties, DNC, agreed to a certain set of rules. Play by those rule or be penalized. I guess we should just throw out the rule book! (and the Patriots won the Super Bowl btw!)

I have seen no proof of your statement "Meanwhile, the only candidate to campaign in FL was OBAMA!" If you can back that up with reliable references then do so. (And maybe you can prove that the other candidates didn't at the same time.)

I have no problem with new primaries or carcases in FL & MI...so long as they are run by the rules ALL parties agreed to....Fair play, but the book!

[GOTV]

46. The voters were disenfranchised and should have a chance to vote in an election that counts n/t

[LSdemocrat]

20. We have no idea because its kind of difficult to claim a fair election happened with no campaigning

[kentuck]

21. But that didn't keep the old folks at home...

Maybe some Obama supporters stayed home?

[Perky]

26. Wrong.

I think that the results reflected a whiter and older electorate exists than actually exists. I do not necessarly think he would have won. But I think it would have been closer if his base thought it was a process that mattered.

[dchill]

32. To Clinton, "unfair advantage" ...

means "not to MY advantage." She even wants Michigan delegates seated as is. No unfair advantage there.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

70. LOL! But don't mention facts. Hillarians can't deal with those things.

[Lucinda]

41. He narrowly missed beating the top two Reps and he only ran a week of ads

Florida knows who he is.

I can see the point of a MI redo...but if he were given the full 40% uncommitted delegates, I don't think there would be much of a gain for Hillary.

[GarbagemanLB]

43. It will be 50/50 or re-vote. No other way the delegates will be seated. The original primary was no

t only unfair to those who thought their votes wouldn't count, but it was basically a vote on name recognition. The high turn-out also had to do with important ballot measures at stake, not just the primary.

[redqueen]

44. The voters were disenfranchised... nothing to do with the candidates.

A do-over allows disenfranchised FL voters to have a REAL say, instead of a joke of a primary spearheaded by DLC clowns.

[boston bean]

45. If this is your argument, do you think only BO supporters stayed home. Give me a fn break. nt

[GOTV]

51. I don't think only BO voters stayed home AND I don't think the vote was legitimate....

...I have no confidence that the results would have been the same had they been told their votes mattered and the candidates campaigned.

[MonkeyFunk]

47. No, of course not

but Obama supporters will claim otherwise, simply because he didn't win.

They believe he DESERVES to win every race, and if he doesn't, he was cheated.

[GarbagemanLB]

48. No, we only want people to play by the rules. Hillary seems to want to break them so she can 'win'

[onenote]

54. why won't HRC do as well or better the second time around?

If the first vote treated both candidates equally, as the OP claims, then presumably the second vote would do the same. So why wouldn't you expect the result to be the same?

[MonkeyFunk]

62. One obvious reason in Florida

is that there are now two candidates instead of 8.

[onenote]

63. and you assume more of those candidates will go for obama than HRC? Why?

[mohc]

49. The fact that the votes did not count did not disadvantage Obama

There is no reason to believe that Obama voters stayed home in numbers statistically significantly more that Clinton voters. The argument is not that the primary did not represent the attitudes of the Florida electorate at the time of the primary. The problem is there was no campaign. Saying that there is no do-over for this as it is not an advantage is silly. If the entire nomination process took place with no campaigning the winner would be effectively decided years in advance. Elections are held on set dates, giving campaigns time to get their message out and compete for support. You could take polls a few weeks before the election and get very different results than the actual vote, not because of error in the polls, but because opinions change as the campaigns unfold. Saying that the campaign process does not give an advantage would be no different than just taking the early polls and using them as the election result. The Florida primary was not a sanctioned Democratic Party event, as it was clearly against the rules. For all intents and purposes, the Florida primary was an extremely expensive opinion poll with a 0% MoE on a 100% confidence interval. A very accurate poll, but a poll nonetheless. A real election is needed.

[smartvoter]

50. I generally stay out of this fight because I'm okay with either one, but

the result is a joke. Maybe HC would win by more. Maybe BO would win. Who knows? But it stands to reason that if people are told they can stop by but the vote doesn't count this year, that you don't have a real election.

The poll probably should have been worded, however, to ask if it was a legitimate result. It's not about advantage/disadvantage.

[housewolf]

52. Because the primary was so early

At the start of the primary season, Obama did not have name recognition with the general public, whereas Hillary did. Obama's track record is that as he goes to states and people have an opportunity to see him, hear him, het gets local coverage and his support mushrooms.

He didn't get a lot of votes in Florida because most voters hadn't had a chance to get to know him prior to the election, thanks to Florida's early primary date and the face that he wasn't "allowed" to campaign there.

Your poll needs an "Other" category.

[onenote]

53. when you said you couldn't be convinced, I figured it meant your mind was made up.

But having read your posts, it appears that you have no mind.

Leaving aside the fact that (a) following rules matters and (b) campaigning matters, let me ask you a question:

Why are you so scared of a re-do. If the first vote treated everyone equally, and the second vote does the same -- both can campaign -- then why are you so fearful that your candidate will do worse?

[anigbrowl]

55. Then why are you holding a poll, when you know you won't like the answer?

The thread is just an elaborate form of flamebait.

[taught_me_patience]

56. Hell yes n/t

[marlakay]

61. He didn't campaign there so people haven't

seen him in person in the state at all. Be honest everyone knows Hillary and that she was married to past president...they see Obama on tv but haven't had a chance to hear him speak in person.

So no i don't think it was fair.

[Labors of Hercules]

64. If you answered no to this question

you only demonstrate your lack of reason and intelligence...

But more than being told the votes don't count, the real issue is that there was no campaign in Florida. Without a campaign, there is little chance that anyone BUT the early frontrunner would win ANY primary, far less one as large as Florida.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

72. It's impossible to tell...

Voters might cast their ballots differently when they're told that the election is "just a beauty pagent" than if their votes are going to count for something. It's possible that a lot of third-tier canidates received "protest votes" that might have be cast differently had the voters believed their votes would acutally be selecting delegates. I think that effects Hillary just as much as Obama.

[donheld]

76. Yes Number 113, are you sorry you asked?

[Exultant Democracy]

77. Of couse he was, Obama gets a huge amount of support from first time voters

who obviously do not have a habit of voting so by becoming a beauty contest it overwhelmingly favored Clinton who has strong support with traditional voters.

[robertpaulsen]

78. "End of story". Great! That means NO FUCKING DELEGATES to states that break the rules.

Everyone here cool with that? :)

[indimuse]

82. neither campaigned(except your boy) Both names on the ballot

what the F*CK ...PEOPLE voted...millions did...they did not vote for barck. Hillary supporters got up and voted where were Obama's supporters...some lame excuse you have!

[indimuse]

83. neither campaigned(except your boy) Both names on the ballot

what the F*CK ...PEOPLE voted...millions did...they did not vote for barck. Hillary supporters got up and voted where were Obama's supporters...some lame excuse you have!