I can't believe its come to this

[BL611]

I never thought there would come a day where I would no longer be a "good Democrat" and support the nominee,I despise Nader voters, and don't think that there is any principle that is worth more than voting for the best person with a realistic chance of winning in the general election. I am also not a longtime Hillary hater, indeed in my sporadic trips to this board, I spent much time defending Hillary and her record from those who thought she was basically a Republican in the past.

This being said, in the unlikely scenario in which Hillary actually does win the Democratic nomination, I cannot support her. The only way she wins this nomination is by (1) Overriding the pledged delegates will with super delegates (2)Trying to play fast and loose with Florida and Michigan instead of honoring the rules that she along with every other Democratic candidate AGREED TO at the beginning of the election cycle (3)Running a completely nasty and negative media campaign, while being at the very least complicit if not actually initiating whisper campaigns that would make Karl Rove blush. If she is successful in this, than the Democratic Party as an institution is broken, and the strength of Obama's REAL grassroots movement (not the 12 college students and 5 burnt out hippies known as the Nader campaign) should be used to build a new progressive political party.

Again I think it would be a tragedy if the world's oldest political party came to an end like this, but I do believe if Hillary wins it will. I am as loyal of a Democrat as they come, and I don't think it will come to this, although I am very concerned on how this race will impact Obama's chances in the GE. But if it happens, I'm out, and not as some sort of sour grapes protest. Pragmatically, if anyone thinks that the way to build a progressive majority in this country is by disillusioning the vast majority of people under 30 who are finally excited about politics, umm well then maybe it's time for a "reality check."

[Bigleaf]

1. I agree. If it ever came to it, fuck her. I'd rather blow up the party

and start from scratch.

[scheming daemons]

4. I agree.... time to blow it up and start over...... Hillary's on a kamikaze mission and is aimed..

...right for the U.S.S. Democratic Party.

[Bread and Circus]

2. I know Obama is to loyal to the Dems to do this. But if he did, I'd follow.

[BL611]

6. I think the more important question is

if his supporters did this would he follow? I think they would, and I think he would.

[KAZ]

3. Happy to rec this thoughtful post. Not to worry, it won't come..

.. to that. This race has been over since WI.

[Window]

5. Excellent post. There are many with the same thoughts.

K/R



:kick:



Peace:thumbsup:

[JimGinPA]

7. K&R

[underpants]

8. I do hate to say this but in the soundbite world of MSM "Monster" could be the end for her

We'll see if it lasts through the weekend (my advise to Team Hillary is to let it go, let it die off) but if it does she is done.

A lot of this has not been fair-the rightwing "prepped the battle field" on her for years mainly as an attack on her husband and on feminism but also because they knew she was going to run.

The "Monster" line is something that sticks. It cements the established perception of her.

A shame, she has an incredible history but that might have been the accidental (off record) end of her national run.

We'll see.

[BL611]

10. I think she's plenty capable

of playing the victim card with stuff like this, it may help her, unless the media starts to dig into the Power's reason for calling her this, which is her campaigns very real dirty tricks, which despite the media's purported love for Obama does not get the examination it deserves.

We will see...

[NMMatt]

9. Excelent post

Preserving the integrity of our party and ridding it of Rove tactics is more important than a single election.

[KoKo]

11. I find I can't support either candidate...unless they run together....

It's a dilemna that we've been put in that makes me very angry with our party. Frontloading the Primary Season allowing the Florida/Michigan thing to get out of hand and promoting two candidates that are causing a racial, sexual, ageism war amongst Democrats.

What our Party has caused can only be healed if Clinton and Obama run on the same ticket to spread the misery. We don't have any other choice. I will leave the Presidential column blank and vote for my own State Candidates. My state doesn't allow "write ins" or I would write in Al Gore or Dennis Kucinich. I'm sick of being railroaded into either of the two candidates running.

[quiet.american]

12. The thing is, as angry as I am with Clinton, I don't want to hand it to McCain, either.

-- So, I'll vote for her if it comes to that. I may be in the minority, though.

[jlpohio69]

13. OP, clearly you are an Obama supporter....

and adding that you have spent much time defending Hillary and her record does change your biased point-of-view.

[BL611]

14. And your point of view is not biased?

The point is
A) I'm not an irrational Hillary hater. It is her specific tactics in this campaign that bother me.

B)That I'm not someone prone to jump ship when my preferred candidate does not make it through the primaries.

Yes I want my candidate to win. But I cannot support Hillary not because I am some longtime Hillary hater who believes every ad hominem attack on her, or over sour grapes, but because of her actions in this campaign. If you would like to refute any of the points I made in the OP go ahead...

[casus belli]

15. I feel where you're coming from

Give it some time. This will eventually all blow over. I think, once the hard feelings have settled you'll realize that holding your nose and voting for Hillary (on the really remote chance she clinches the nom) is always going to be preferable to a McCain administration. NOT voting for her could set progressive politics much further back than any insults hurled by overzealous supporters of hers.

All the best to you...

[BL611]

16. Sorry, but I don't think I'm would do that

Again I don't say this out of bitterness, it is a pragmatic calculation. If Hillary gets the nomination there will be a highly mobilized group of young and independent voters which will feel left out in the cold by the Democratic Party after playing by their rules and winning. If the choice is between yielding to the Democratic party as an institution (which will be completely antiquated if it gives the nomination to Hillary) and turning my back on this new coalition, or building something new with the group of people who will be the principles of any future progressive movement in this nation, I'm going with the latter. And again its not emotion, its what makes sense- their younger, better organized, and more active than whatever the Hillary Democratic PArty would look like. Why would I stay?

[casus belli]

17. Well, for one...

A McCain presidency would probably put 2-3 conservative judges on SCOTUS, setting back progressive politics by decades.

[BL611]

18. Not enough of a reason

McCain is probably only a one term President due to his age.There will still be a Democratic Congress which will be much more careful after Roberts in who they approve. More importantly I don't think Hillary will have any chance in the GE. I'm aware the polls now show her as being competitive, however after whatever events at the convention that would lead to her getting the nomination happen, I don't think there's anyway she will be able to get enough young people and African Americans to be competitive. A good President popular with the country can eventually break a conservative court, look at FDR, a Democratic Party vacated of everyone under 40 cannot.

[casus belli]

19. Well, in any case....relax

She isn't going to win the nomination. And if she does, the dirty tricks and back-room politics that would be involved would cause a lot more people than just you to bail on the party. And it would go a long way towards proving true what many independents have been saying for a very long time: that there is no difference between the two parties.

I can't see all of the progressives in this party letting something like that happen without a fight.

[BL611]

20. I agree

at the end of day I am much more concerned about whether Obama can put the party back together in time for Nov (as in the short term Hillary's constituency is certainly important), than her actually winning.