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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:35 PM
Original message
Can I Get a Clothespin Here?
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 09:38 PM by NanceGreggs
While I have always admired Hillary Clinton, I have never been a supporter of her campaign for president. I loved First Lady Hillary and have great respect for Senator Hillary, but Campaign Hillary has left me cold from day one.

Of course, that personal opinion is neither here nor there. I have never ignored the fact that she inspires many, and the passionate devotion of her supporters has never led me to call their sanity into question, or opine that their assessment of her abilities is a result of kool-aid-drinking-induced mindlessness, or a total ignorance of the facts.

When it finally came down to a choice between two possible candidates, the choice was, for me, simply a difference of opinion as to who was better equipped to take on the role of leadership of a nation in peril, and a matter of whose management style was better suited to the onerous task-at-hand.

I have often stated that we, as Democrats, were fortunate in having a choice between two great candidates, both of whom had the goals of the party and the country at heart, and that although Obama was my personal preference, I would vote for either one in the end without hesitation, or a need to hold my nose in voting for Hillary should my own personal choice wind up not being the ultimate choice of my fellow Democrats.

This was a position I held, and staunchly so, until the past week. Although not my choice of candidate, I defended Hillary and gave her the benefit of the doubt on every occasion, and in every instance where I felt she mis-spoke out of sheer exhaustion, or acted on the poor advice of campaign consultants whose counsel was less than skilled – and, in some cases, out-and-out wrong.

I dismissed the “as far as I know” comment as a result of her having been off her game due to the incredible pressure she was under after so many losses in states she had been repeatedly predicted to win. And although I was disgusted by the decidedly negative approach of statements like “change you can xerox”, I put it down to bad advice from the likes of Penn, whose win-at-any-cost measures might be ill-advised, but to be expected in the dirty game of politics.

However, there are only so many straws the camel’s back can bear before the animal bends and breaks, and even the benefit-of-the-doubt threshold can only be stretched so far before it is irrevocably crossed over, once and for all.

And that threshold, for me, has now been crossed. Hillary’s comment about the experience that she and John McCain both bring to the table – while reducing Obama’s lifetime experience to a single “speech made in 2002” – goes far beyond what is acceptable.

Those who say that this is simply a reiteration of the facts, and is nothing that the Republicans won’t use against Obama anyway are either being totally disingenuous, or are deliberately spinning the unconscionable into something they hope will be more palatable to themselves, and the Democratic voters at large.

It’s said that all is fair in love, war and politics – a phrase meant to encompass, and perhaps excuse, the tactics that one party resorts to in fighting the other. However, when a Democratic candiate uses such tactics to demean his or her own party member, we are into a whole new ballgame.

Hillary has made great political hay of the fact (which, in and of itself, is highly questionable) that she has more experience than her Democratic opponent. But when she makes hay of such facts in attempt to portray herself as one of the obvious choices between herself and her Republican opponent as opposed to her Democratic opponent, she has gone too far.

Her words are her words – and she has said them not once in the heat of a single moment, but several times.

What she has said, in no uncertain terms, is that given the choice between McCain and Obama, should she not be the nominee, McCain is the better choice over her own party member.

While I applaud the passion and good intentions behind the valiant efforts of her supporters to spin this kind of blatant disregard for the Democratic Party into something less than insulting, less than a scorched earth ME-or-the-other-side mentality, a declaration that a Republican in the White House is preferable to an Obama win in November, I would remind them that such a statement is nothing less than a declaration that she will gladly throw her own party members under the bus rather than go quietly into her rightful place as the fair-and-honest also-ran position as may be decreed by her own party’s voters.

The world of politics is, as we all know, a world full of dirty tricks, rumours presented as fact, innuendo proferred as being a where-there’s-smoke-there’s-fire situation deserving of further scrutiny, a universe wherein everyone and everything is fair game.

But even in this filthy environment, clouded by doubtful facts and polluted by ever-changing stances based on which way the political wind is blowing, there are certain things that should, among party members, be considered as totally off-limits.

Apparently Hillary Clinton has chosen to ignore those limits, and has forged ahead into territory where such limits are to be pushed to one side in pursuit of what she perceives will be a win at all costs – even if it means the cost of her own party’s unity behind our chosen nominee for the presidency.

I will reiterate my position – one which I know I share with many others of my party at this juncture: Should Hillary Clinton, by hook or by crook (and you can take that to mean what you will) become the nominee of my party, I will vote for her because she has that all-important (D) behind her name. But I will do it with a clothespin on my nose – because voting for someone who got there will be overwhelmed by the stench of how she got there – and that will be an odor I would rather not inhale, nor remember in the years to come.


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CyberPieHole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. YAWWWWN...
zzzzzzzzzzzz
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JackORoses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. how much Bullshit can a Cyberpiehole swallow before it chokes?
Hillary plans to find out.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
64. since it spews bullshit on a regular basis...
its capacity is never reached.
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KAZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Go Cheney yourself. This board would benefit from your..
..departure. Whackjob.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. You know, that's exactly the kind of ...
... intelligent, well-reasoned, fact-filled response I was expecting from you, and people like you.

Hey, call me prescient ...
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CyberPieHole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. "Prescient" is NOT the word you bring to mind...
try again.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
57. There is no need to 'try again' ...
... your opinion of me is now, and forever shall be, a matter of no consequence whatsoever.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. The ignore list was tailor-made for such pieces of cyber refuse as cyber piehold.
i've had him on ignore for a long time now, and let me tell you, this board is much nicer without him.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #60
181. Thanks for the idea. One more for my list.
:)
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #60
258. Ah yes - My ignore list is now HUGH!!.
And has just grown again.

Thnaks (sic) Elrond!
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
234. Popcorn time!
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 04:56 PM by tavalon
:popcorn:

You do know who you're fighting with here, don't you? She's going to write circles around you. It's kind of like a person who has seen boxing on TV saying "I can take on Ali".

This is gonna be fun.

I know I shouldn't be in this forum, but since I came to read Nance (I read everything she writes because she is one of the best political writers out there in cyberland or pretty much anywhere), I think I'll stay for the smackdown.


Edited to add - I guess I should have realized that Nance is too much of a stand up person to get down in the mud with you. Too bad, the smackdown would have been elegant.
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gtar100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
243. Now where have I seen these kind of post before??? Oh yea, Trolls!!
A great mark of distinction to merely spew condescending words. I hope all your 1000+ posts haven't been so short and sent only to provoke.

Seriously, my good feelings for Hillary are on the edge because of precisely what Nance brings up. If you have anything constructive to say, it would be appreciated. But acting like a troll? Save that for YouTube. DU deserves better.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
251. You're insulting Nance, of all people?
That's disgusting.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Ignore the Doofus...
Great Post, Nancy!
K&R
:kick:
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. Head in the sand and fingers in your ears.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
75. Best screen name ever
It really fits.
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stlsaxman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #75
175. oh but he/she mis-spelled it....
they meant Cyber BUNG Hole...

pie/bung bung/pie... an easy mistake... :shrug:
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kid a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
84. yawn!? yea.. I yawn too when I try reading something over my head
Nance has laid out a a very logical stance.

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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
98. delete
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 12:27 AM by BlueJac
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
99. Go join Mc Cain
and have Hillary as VP.......they are the most experienced at FUCKING THIS COUNTRY OVER!

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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
134. McCain lover
It's soooo boring having the truth shoved down your stinking cyber piehole
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
197. Suitable Name (nt)
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #197
262. His name is "dickwad"?
:shrug:
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
222. And that adds to the discussion, how?
Oh, you were just being a jerk.

I get it now.
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Chipper Chat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
228. "YAWN" = Y elling At Wise N ancy
Obviously, you must be glued to DU 24 hours a day just waiting to pounce on Hill truth-tellers. Oh no - no you don't. Not with our Nancy. Go take a fying fluck.
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
257. So you're going third party?
:wtf:

Admit it. Hilsnbill are all about the power. "I deserve to be President because in 1992 the Republicans torpedoed MY health care plan! If I'm not the nominee, I'll sink the Democratic Party. So there!"
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DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. Standing Ovation
:applause:
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
159. I stand with you!
:applause:

K and R
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
4. You nailed it, Nancy
thank you for posting. Personally, I'll have to hold my nose to vote for either one--but I agree that what she did with the "experience" meme is hurtful to our cause. Sadly, you'll never convince those who support her blindly.

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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
233. Somebody pointed out that it's okay to be for Obama just on account
Of all the young enthused people he has brought into the party.

I think that knowing that he woke up a lot of younger people will allow me to vote for him with only a slightly pinched nose.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. Remember your oft repeated statement that negative posts don't change anyone's mind?
I'm glad you ignored your own advice and felt stirred up enough to post your thoughts.

I still disagree, wholeheartedly, but am pleased that you felt compelled to write down your dissatisfaction in a non inflammatory, thoughtful fashion.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
25. Thanks, ruggerson ...
This was certainly not meant to change anyone's mind - because it won't, and I am well aware of that.

I simply felt a desire to state my opinion, as is everyone's right here and elsewhere.

As a long-time admirer of Hillary Clinton (and I do mean looooong time), my disappointment in her recent behaviour is personally devastating. I truly hope she will overcome the shame she has brought upon herself, and will go on to great things in her Senate career in future. I believe she has the capacity to do just that - and I hope she does.
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GMFORD Donating Member (202 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #25
116. I liked Hillary better than Bill in the 90's
to tell the truth. She was the first 'equal partnership' First Lady, at least during the campaign they ran as a couple. I always thought she would run for President this year and thought I would be a supporter for sure.

But as it turns out, I decided we need to pass the torch. The 90's were great but it's time to move forward so when it got down to only two obvious choices, I chose Obama. However, I kept watching both campaigns thinking Clinton might win me back (several of my friends felt the same way). She never quite did it and we all ended up voting Obama in the primary.

But since her nomination seems out of reach, her campaign has turned ugly. I don't feel wistful anymore about her and agree with the clothespin sentiment. What a shame.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
235. Yeah, I remember thinking she was the greatest when she was trying to get her healthcare
initiative through. And I watched the press and Congress force her into a subservient place. I hated it.

But over the years as she has polished her political knob, it's been harder to like her.
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istopforcookies Donating Member (50 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #235
263. A woman in politics!? How dare she!
Try again.
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KAZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
7. You're speaking for me NanceGreggs! Kand FN R!
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boobooday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
8. Exactly right
Just flip those comments and imagine Obama saying that voting for McCain would be better than voting for Hillary.
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thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
10. Remember ... it took a Clinton to get the Democrats kicked out of government for 7 years.
Hillary will not just throw the Democrats under the bus. She'll throw the country into whatever mess triangulates well on any given week.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
11. K&R ! n/t
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
13. That about sums it up
:yourock:
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
15. I do recall you waited a long time to share who you supported, and were
more than fair. Thanks for making me think about my choice of declaring so early, and questioning whether that was the right choice.

I'm with you on everything else. Sen. Clinton is not acting like a Dem, and she deserves our scorn.
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
16. I applaud your bravery in sharing this with us all.
Because you'll now be branded a kool-aid drinking, Obamite going forward. And every thoughtful post you make, will be degraded into nothing more than a cultist following.

Clearly you've thought hard about this, and I respect and appreciate your decision. I would like to add that this statement stood out, to me..

>>But even in this filthy environment, clouded by doubtful facts and polluted by ever-changing stances based on which way the political wind is blowing, there are certain things that should, among party members, be considered as totally off-limits.<<

I cannot agree more, and her action in this above all has me outraged.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
18. Can't argue with you on this one. She went way over the line with the "experience" line.
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fadedrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
20. I read her book, couldn't wait till it came out...
and found I didn't know her any better after I read it than before. And I liked her less. I thought it was just me. It felt like she had something missing, what I don't know, empathy, real feelings, etc.

The only thing I remember is that she didn't like Ken Starr and he's the only one in the book she criticized. I was surprised when her people linked Obama with the one person in her book she really seemed to despise. And she hints about him being her veep? I hope not for his sake.
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. She reiterated that today, adding that he didn't deserve the nomination.
Waiting for the KO Upload on the clip sequence as we speak.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
79. if you have a link to a video of that...
i would like to see it.
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #79
91. I've been waiting for it to pop up.
I'm not great at sorting down through youtube. But I watched it tonight on KO. The reporter asked her the question, she hummed around - it was reiterated, and she said that's what I'm saying - or something to that effect.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
21. very thoughtful, well reasoned and well written.
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NC_Nurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
22. You've summed up my feelings! Thanks.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
24. And that is exactly how I would vote for Obama,
peace :)
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stlsaxman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #24
186. let's hope people in either camp at least vote... nasal restraint or no. n/t
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
26. What you said, Nance.
I, too, have always admired and respected Hilary Clinton, but she absolutely stepped over the line by essentially saying that McCain would be a better president than Obama, a man in her own party.

She should be using those kinds of scorched-earth tactics against McCain, not Obama. Her saying she has more experience. etc., that's fine. But stepping over that line was going too far. And I don't think it can be justified.

Makes me really wonder how she would be as President. Would she throw all of us under the bus to satisfy her need for power? Would that not be the same as what Bush has done to us for the past 7 years?

Sorry, Hilary, but you really lost me.

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hisownpetard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
28. Hillary's advocacy for John McCain is, imo, as treasonous as you can get.

That's more than I can take. And, since making that remark, she has seen fit to repeat it
several different times.

Give her the hook! This is the last thing in the world the Democratic party needs right now.
If this is indicative of the kind of judgment she has, it's a good thing she's not going to be the nominee.

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JBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. Yes, repeated several times
She's provided the McCain ad-makers with several takes from which to choose. Pretty easy to edit - just drop the part where she talks about her own qualifications. "Senator McCain brings a lifetime of experience. Senator Obama has a speech".
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lordsummerisle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
29. Outstanding Post n/t
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
30. Great writing once again
I'll take a clothespin also
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
31. I think Obama's insinuations, throughout this campaign,
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 10:15 PM by bigtree
. . . that Hillary Clinton is some trigger-happy warmonger because of her vote on the Iraq resolution has been the most insulting, divisive attack in this campaign, considering he has had an identical voting record on Iraq with Clinton since he's been in the Senate and actually had a vote.

You have your limits, I have mine. I refuse to put blinders on and isolate Clinton's attempt to edge Obama out of the military readiness club as some unforgivable straw. Clinton was correct about McCain's experience. She's also correct that Obama has to carry his own water on this, especially since his attack on her own credibility as commander-in-chief was immediate and deliberate. He says she doesn't have the 'judgment' to serve. Why that isn't seen as an unforgivable affront by the same folks who are up in arms now over the politics with McCain is bewildering.

I have absolutely no respect for Obama's credibility as he continues to press a speech on Iraq he made, with no responsibility at all for anything but his own rhetoric, as equal to a vote made by a sitting Senator, especially since he didn't do a thing about those 'concerns' about Iraq until well into his term in 2005. He's given Sen. Kerry a pass for a vote he says was, in and of itself, a vote for war. He's giving Bush a pass by claiming the Iraq vote gave him permission for what he ultimately did, when he knows Bush perpetuates his occupation through the funding bills he couldn't bring himself to vote against until he chose to run for president in 2007.

In fact, Obama has been stroking republicans all throughout the campaign, admonishing the Clinton campaign and supporters for 'DEMONIZING' them. He's done this in a craven attempt to get republicans to vote for him in the primary.

And he and his campaign have been attacking the Clintons all along, most recently advantaging themselves of a Drudge lie to suggest the Clinton campaign had 'leaked' a photo to the press which had already been in circulation and mostly ignored. They also took Clinton's acceptance of Obama's WORD that he wasn't Muslim and twisted it to suggest that she was trying to further the false impression. The most hysterical and ridiculous was the charge that the Clinton campaign had changed his skin color in a video from orangey-red to his natural brown.

So, you've reached your level of 'outrage'. Fine. I reached mine long ago with Obama. I'm just not using it as some wedge to de-legitimize his candidacy or denigrate him as unacceptable to our party, as the Clinton critics have. I think that attitude is contrived and beyond what is fair, considering Obama hasn't operated his campaign or managed his rhetoric in the careful manner that Clinton's critics say they expect from our Democratic candidates. I think you should go back to you're earlier conclusion that this is just a political fight which isn't going to destroy or significantly damage our party. Just because the CANDIDATES and their high level surrogates are acting up, it doesn't mean that we have to mimic and elevate their political prattle into some defining affront. You know very well that they won't, in the end.
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JBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. "She's also correct that Obama has to carry his own water on this"
Why the fuck isn't Hillary making McCain carry his own water, instead of doing it for him? I'm sorry you don't see that as an unforgiveable transgression.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. she will when she faces him. That's obvious to anyone who's watched these campaigns.
Feint praise is an effective disarming technique. Obama's problems with any perception of his own qualifications is his OWN problem at this point in the race for the nomination, not Clinton's.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #42
54. She can't really be against McCain if she's praising him now.
She wants Obama to lose so that she can force the party to nominate her in 2012. She doesn't get it that this repeated series of comments guarantee that most Democrats will never accept her as nominee.

Face it, HRC can't ask the party to forgive her now.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #54
63. that's just inexperience in these campaigns talking
She won't get anywhere by aligning herself with the inevitable chorus of idiots who will try and make some issue out of McCain's heroic captivity. It just makes sense to establish herself as above all of that, as in: "Sen. McCain is my friend, but, he's wrong . . ."

The experience argument is Obama's to manage, as he's been deflecting that question with his insinuation that Sen. Clinton's Iraq vote makes her responsible for Bush's preemptive invasion and, therefore, she lack the judgment to be commander in chief, but hasn't really made a convincing argument that his own judgment (voting for EVERY Iraq funding bill until 2007) is superior to that experience. He may well be able to, but he hasn't. When will Obama apologize for suggesting Clinton doesn't have the judgment to be commander-in-chief?

And Clinton is working to win the nomination NOW, not the bullshit you've INVENTED about 2012
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #63
128. bwahahaha. tell it to Hill's surrogate Gloria Steinhem who
trashed McCain in Texas. And Clinton acolytes accuse Obama supporters of drinking the koolaid. You're about to explode from imbibing so much.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #128
153. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. I think you are deliberately missing the point ...
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 10:31 PM by NanceGreggs
"He says she doesn't have the 'judgment' to serve. Why that isn't seen as an unforgivable affront by the same folks who are up in arms now over the politics with McCain is bewildering."

What he didn't say is: "John McCain and I have the judgment to serve; Hillary does not."

The minute you hold out the GOP opponent as being the better choice against a fellow Democrat, you've lost your credibility as a party member.

The consequences for Hillary will be dire - I'm not wishing for them; I am simply opining on their inevitability, and the fact that she has brought such consequences upon herself.

I honestly believe that HRC is capable of great things for the party and the country. But if she chooses to incapacitate herself by such blatant displays of party disloyalty, she has no one to blame but herself.

More's the pity.

(Edited to add: DAMN those bracket thingys that remove what you meant to highlight!!!)

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. No you are missing my point. Obama has cast Hillary Clinton's judgment as akin to Bush's
repeatedly. He says she's as responsible as Bush for his invasion. I happen to think that's a despicable, republican enabling lie.

That's as unforgivable as anything, to me, but it won't look that way if you accept his argument that her vote on the Iraq resolution means that she was for the invasion and occupation, as many of folks who support him in his criticisms do.

Where's the 'party loyalty' in that?
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JBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. I don't see McCain, the Republican opponent, mentioned in there anywhere.
That is the point.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #55
66. so what? I don't think she said anything which wasn't true or evident to anyone looking on.
She NEVER said she 'endorsed' McCain either, but dishonest folks see a need to repeat THAT lie, over and over. What she said was that she has experience in military and foreign affairs, McCain, obviously, does, and that all Obama has is a speech which he's using to prove his 'judgment, as a retort to the charge about his lack of experience being a factor in a match-up with McCain.

That is the point.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #66
80. If that is 'the point' ...
... it falls far short of the facts. Hillary is certainly within her rights to criticize Obama's experience, or lack thereof, as she sees fit.

But to reduce his life's experience to being "one speech" is disingenuous at best, and dismissively naive in political terms.

I would not say that she's "endorsed" McCain, because that is a term that has certain connotations in the political environment. However, she has come as close to endorsing the GOP nominee as many care to get in the current political climate - and she has done herself no favours in doing so.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #80
89. that 'speech' is the 'judgment Obama's claiming in defense of the 'experience' question
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 11:48 PM by bigtree
that reference to the 'speech' wasn't made in a vacuum. It was a direct response to Obama's ONLY defense on the question of 'experience in military and foreign affairs. It's his applause line. He's banking on that ONE point which is HIS OWN reference to his speech.

Clinton is, correctly, pointing out that his speech is not definitive enough to serve as a rebuttal to the question of actual experience in military and foreign affairs. His speech isn't even definitive enough to serve as a measure of Obama's judgment, much less Clinton's.

He had NO actual responsibility for his words when he made the speech. When he did, he voted EXACTLY the same as Clinton.

And, her alleged 'endorsement' of McCain will obviously not benefit him as she runs against him. Feint praise of McCain will help remove any charge of personalization which usually is made into an issue, as in 2004, with Bush complaining about the 'politics of personal destruction.' Obama, with his admonitions against 'demonizing' republicans, should understand that.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #66
129. Sure she did. She lied blatantly when she said that Obama's only
"qualification" is a 2002 speech. She's a bald faced liar and she's now contaminated hereself by holding up McCain as preferable to Obama. And dem insiders aren't pleased. She'll get blowback from this. And she's brought it on herself.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #129
155. That speech is the MAIN argument Obama is making to counter the experience question
That was his big comeback to the 'phone' ad. Judgment. He says his judgment is better on national security because he opposed the Iraq resolution in a SPEECH and Hillary Clinton voted for the resolution. OBAMA used the speech as a trump to Clinton's claim of experience, citinf her judgment, and his opposite judgment on that ONE resolution, despite the fact that he did NOTHING on Iraq until 2005 and voted for EVERY Iraq funding bill until he began his run for the presidency. That funding is what has enabled Bush, not a vote on a resolution which he ignored.

Obama elevated that 2002 speech first. It's not a lie to repeat his OWN defense.
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verges Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #47
115. Bush isn't
running for President against the Democratic nominee. McCain is!
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #115
120. there's not a dime worth of difference between them
and, he's still president.
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verges Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #120
225. Yes, and your point is?
Had she compared Obama to Bush, that would have been within the realm of acceptable political discourse. Nobody is going to vote for Bush based on that. Bush isn't running. McCain is. To say that McCain is more qualified to be Prez (CinC) than Obama is not acceptable. Because it places a current Repulican candidate above a Democrat that he very well may be running against.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #47
118. The IWR vote was a politically expedient mistake too many made.
It has devastated and is devastating two countries - Iraq and the US. Hillary is in the the unfortunate circumstance of having looked the other way and gone with the flow.

No one can tell me that she was taken in, that facts were available to me that were not available to her. It was a lie and a mistake and she made the wrong decision, along with a big batch of the House and Senate members, many who have since been sent packing.

Obama made a good and courageous call, one that had zero political advantages then but was the right thing to do. To me, that is a crucial character difference between the two candidates and well worth pointing out.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #118
160. For HRC it was political triangulation for the chips she is now cashing in
Play corporate advantage card or play democratic peoples with their party card. Of course she would chose the corporate card in a kind of a vested way, after all her significant other did it that most of time also.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. Bravo.
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desertflamingo Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #31
122. BRAVO!!!
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DWilliamsamh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #31
150. Difference in Judgment: Reality
Since the argument about the Iraq force authorization can't be settled dude to the fact that Obama wasn't in the Senate - how about this: what was there position on essentially the exact same "lets give the president the benefit of the doubt that he won't take us to war for no reason, but give him an enormous s"stick" with which to threaten a potential enemy" type resolution. I.E. Kyle-Lieberman. Did Senator Clinton demonstrate that she had learned from her experience? No. She STILL voted to allow Bush to get one step closer to a military conflict with a country that is no threat to us whatsoever. So much for 'there's no difference in their voting record."
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #150
156. Obama didn't even bother to show up to vote on that resolution.
It looked like he was hiding out on the campaign trail. So, his two main arguments against Clinton's voting record on national security have to do with a vote he didn't have and a vote he neglected to cast.
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DWilliamsamh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #156
168. Senator Clinton voted FOR it.
Voting FOR something is, in objective reality (as opposed to campaign camp), worse than not voting for it.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #168
169. Obama looks like he wanted to have it both ways
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 10:17 AM by bigtree
He wanted to look like he was tough on Iran, but, not be on record as voting for or against the measure. Maybe he wants the flexibility as president to change his mind.
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DWilliamsamh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #169
192. Way to NOT address Senator Clinton's affirmative vote
She voted to give GWP power he had already proved he couldn't be trusted with. Try addressing that.

And while you're at it address the fact that she went even further in the Iraq vote buy voting AGAINST the amendment that would have REQUIRED President Bush to get UN approval and come back to Congress a second time for authorization before he actually invaded Iraq. She helped pave the WAY for the President to go to war without a shred of evidence - while admitting she had never even read the relevant NIE. She saw that as an expedient (at a time when President bush was at least somewhat popular) way of demonstrating her toughness.

Contrast that with Obama who at the time was trying to win a Senate seat in an environment that still demanded tough talk on terror - and made no bones about the impending invasion and beating of war drums being WRONG and ill advised on the facts.

Oh and BTW - isn't "you never change your mind" and "you never admit you were wrong" one of the things that got us into this horrid place in history in the first place? And isn't that one of the staples of Bush's immaturity? Are you saying that you admire Senator Clinton for adopting that attitude?
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #192
202. I disagreed with that vote, but I don't give Obama any credit for opposing the resolution
because he didn't bother to show up and vote. Who knows if he's sincere, since he didn't bother to stand up and make himself accountable by exercising his responsibility and voting?
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DWilliamsamh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #202
203. Well I guess I have my answer... You will not address your candidate
Since you will not address your candidate's vote or why it is so much better that Obama's non-vote, much less address the other point I have brought up, I guess this is pointless. Have a great time AND put some thought into the terms of that bet.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #203
208. you can get all of that from the responses I've already given on this thread.
I'm not wasting another minute rehashing all of that.
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hell-bent Donating Member (593 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #31
154. Right on, bigtree!
An excellent analysis of the Obama campaign with their questionable tactics of arousing the ire of the Black voter. A perfect response to the OP. :thumbsup:
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #154
161. thanks, I'll take that
It's really good to wake up and find some nice words. Appreciated.
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
32. Hear, hear.
"What oft was thought but ne'er so well expressed." -Alexander Pope

:dem:

-Laelth
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
33. Totally agree except
I don't there is a clothespin big enough that will help me to vote for her. :-(
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TheDoorbellRang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #33
94. I'm thinking HAZMAT suit, myself.
Words fail me. Thank God for Nance to say it so well.
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Bigleaf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
34. Awesome Post. Dead on.
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Cogito ergo doleo Donating Member (382 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
35. Thanks for the very thoughtful post.
I'm not sure if even a clothespin will do the trick, but I'll bookmark this thread, and read as necessary.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
37. If McCain gets in, the Iraq war will continue--indefinitely. That's
what makes Clinton's comments particularly hurtful, embarrassing, and destructive. That she would place her own personal ambition above this current world crisis--seriously, I'm speechless. I'm in disbelief now every time I see her.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. that's a view which supposes Obama is the nominee and can't defend himself
Sen. Clinton clearly believes she will be the one opposing McCain in the general election. And, she is positioning Obama out of that equation. She has NO obligation to carry his water on the question of 'experience' and she spoke the truth. I think that's what hurts the Obama campaign, the fact that he hasn't been able to make an effective argument against the charge of having little or no experience in foreign affairs or military matters. It's less some concern with her pumping up McCain (in an attempt to remove the inevitable sympathy backlash for McCain's captivity) than it is with Obama's lack of any substantive retort other than to label Clinton as some trigger-happy warmonger.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #40
53. Many believe ...
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 10:47 PM by NanceGreggs
... as do I, that Obama's all-too-legitimate response to Hill's experience is that her experience includes voting to give Bush the authorization to invade Iraq.

Again, you can only spin that one so far, i.e. "I didn't think it would ultimately lead to going to war." Knowing Bush, where did she think it would lead? And if she didn't think it would lead to war, apparently her 'experienced judgment' leaves a lot to be desired.

She's positioning Obama out of the equation? Kudos for coming up with that - spin worthy of FOX-News pundits. "It's not a matter of declaring your GOP opponent as the better choice for president - it's simply a matter of positioning your fellow Democrat out of the equation."



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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #53
83. I think that equating MY opinions with 'spin' and Fox news is something I'd expect from demagogues
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 12:15 AM by bigtree
. . . not you. But, I can see that you believe that you have a lock on the truth here. I've never believed that the Iraq resolution gave Bush the 'authority' to preemptively invade Iraq and occupy the country for five *years. Yet, Obama and his supporters continually and repeatedly accuse Clinton of responsibility for every thing in Iraq, despite the fact that it is the FUNDING which actually enables Bush and is Congress' ONLY effective tool to manage Bush's manipulation of the military, even in the initial invasion which was advantaged by a loophole in the War Powers Act allowing him to deploy the forces for a period of time before getting congressional approval. The Iraq resolution wasn't that 'approval' the funding was. Obama has the exact same 'judgment' on that as his rival ,so his defense against the 'experience' rap, using that vote as the definitive measure of Clinton's judgment, is dishonest and enabling of Bush's insistence that he has all the authority he needs to continue.

Of course she wants to knock Obama out of the way and make this a fight between she and McCain. What do you expect at this point in the campaign? She clearly believes she can win the nomination.

Thanks for the character attack on MY opinion.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #83
131. oh yes, your "judgment" is worth more than the judgment
of virtually all legal experts and 23 Senators and the majority of house dems. Delusional. As Leahy said it was a blank check. And btw, his voting record on Iraq is similar to Clinton's but not a dupe. Furthermore, there's justification for funding the troops and none for giving bush a blank check for war and then supporting that war when it started. You dissemble constantly on this issue and deserve nothing but contempt for that behavior.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #131
158. I don't know why you jumped into this thread with your rudeness
And, you don't have a lock on the interpretation of that resolution. You have an opinion, and you can find folks who agree with you. So can I.

Take your contempt and shove it. You are like a gnat, buzzing around DU with your high-handed insults. Don't expect me to recognize your posts from here on out from the other Ignored.
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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #131
189. Vietnam was brought to an end by de-funding.
You can insure the troops get the supplies they need and still de-fund combat operations. So yes, voting for blanket funding does show you do not have the courage to stand alone and vote your conscience. There is so little difference between Obama's and Clinton's voting record and their policies that neither of them have swayed me. What has swayed me was the name calling and insults used by supporters on both sides, if you should happen to have a different opinion. So both sides can "hold" their noses as long as they vote Dem. Just don't be so rude and sometimes downright vile when you "support" your candidate, it is getting very annoying. Bigtree made some valid points yet the op found it necessary to liken him to fox news instead of just simply stating her views. I liked the op's post much better before she declared. Now no one dares disagree with either side without be labeled a pug lover. So much for objectivity. Neither candidate is without fault.
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doublethink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
39. Sane voices returning to DU .....
You wouldn't happen to be a super-delegate would you Nancy? ;) .... That would be cool. K&R. Peace. :kick:
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
41. Agreed.
She crossed a political Rubicon with that remark, after some weeks of coyly dipping her toes in its fateful waters.

As wretched as many of her overpaid advisers have been, it's undeniable that she is fully accountable for what comes out of her own mouth. I used to admire this woman greatly. Now I find her embarrassing. It's a goddamn shame.

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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
45. Yep.
'Tis sad.

But illuminating.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
46. very well said! k&r
:hi:

peace~
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ladym55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
48. Nance has spoken
And as always, carefully and thoughtfully. I think it would do EVERYONE good to listen.

When the primary process began, I thought to myself we had an embarrassment of riches. As the field dwindled, I continued to think that I had good choices. My opinion of Senator Clinton began to slip right before the Wisconsin Primary and plummeted during her Ohio campaign. By the time of the Ohio primary, I was done.

I have come to the very sad conclusion that Senator Clinton loves power for herself and has NO problem destroying her party and making sure that by fall, there will be NOTHING left and the Republican Party will continue to control the White House ... and will have coattails for Senate and House races ... and the ability to place MORE jurists on the Supreme Court.

Thanks, Nance, for continuing to be the voice of reason. :applause:
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
49. K&R.
The Democratic Party, in general, is rejecting the way politics has been played for decades, IMO.

Al Gore, Howard Dean and Barack Obama are three who have begun to construct a new way. I think it's exciting, or at least promising. It has the potential to bring perhaps millions back to voting and to participation in the process.
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stillrockin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
50. K & R
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
51. Strongly support the OP. Excellent post.
And strong points to bolster all claims as well.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
52. Thoughtful and non-inflammatory post. You're better than I am, because
I won't even bother with the clothespin--not for someone who's proven that she will burn the whole freakin' house down if she doesn't get her way.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
56. Sadly, we at last deserved far better than clothespins in 08. K&R! n/t
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
58. Nance, I hadn't seen the big deal about Hillary's remarks...
now I do. Thanks for this post. You changed my mind, at the very least.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
59. Fortunately, we won't need the clothes pin, NanceGreggs
Because even the establishment within our Party is now aware that they can not overturn the winner of the popular vote, the winner of the most state contests and the winner of truly won delegates. There would be an uprising in Denver that would make Chicago '68 look pale in comparison.

You are a good writer, by the way. I always enjoy reading your posts.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #59
68. Thank you so much ...
... not only for your kind words about my writing, but for reminding me that the way things are going, I won't need that dreaded clothespin when all is said and done.
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
61. You really are an excellent, excellent writer
Duh! Great insight on my part.

I agree with every single thing in this post. But I have to say that Hillary is causing me to explore boundaries within myself that I did not even know existed - like

I would never have believed it to be a possibility in my life that a Democratic candidate could ever make me consider the option of :

Refusing the clothespin! and sitting out an election

I doubt that I really could ever do that - I would repeat over and over "Supreme Court, Supreme Court, Supreme Court" to psyche myself up before going to the polls. Then I guess I would pull the lever and then go home and take a shower.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #61
70. Oh, my dear Phoebe!
I know just what you mean about those horrible thoughts of "refusing the clothespin" and sitting it out.

Fortunately, I don't think it will come to that - but it would be a close ethical call, to be sure.
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #70
117. I guess I'm lucky then
I live in California, which means I can vote my conscience without worrying that I will throw the race. There is no way any Democratic candidate will lose California. If Obama wins, I will vote FOR him, not against McCain. If Clinton wins, I will probably vote Green for the presidential portion of the ticket.
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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
62. Thank you. nt
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Pavlovs DiOgie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
65. Excellent post
I am hoping I won't need the clothes pin this time around - I'd like to vote my heart this time.
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annie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
67. Oh come on with this "win at any costs" meme, it's so exaagerrated...
it's just not true. there are plenty of other reasons to dislike her, this one has been touted by Obama "supporters" before things even got started. It's just silly. Let him get tough, he's acting like a victim so everyone can make her out to be 'the scary meanie what was mean to obama'.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #67
74. Is that anywhere akin to ...
... "that meanie called me a monster"? Is that what you mean by 'acting like a victim'? :shrug:

Sorry, but I don't think any of Obama's supporters (myself being one from the beginning) foresaw that a fellow Democrat would align themselves with the GOP as a means of "winning".

In politics, one must of course be prepared to defend one's self against the opposition - but defending one's self against one's own party member has never been part of the mix - until now.
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annie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #74
85. Mario Cuomo had a good point when he said a good way to...
prepare for the championship fight is to box.

ok, it was something like that, but yeah, i think he should have to actually have a contested race before heading to the presidency. how many times has he been tested? she's not hitting him all that hard, he's not made of glass.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #85
105. It has nothing to do with how hard she's hitting him ...
... he's a professional boxer, and he should be (and is) able to fend for himself.

It's how hard she hit her own party members by suggesting that the Republican candidate was a better choice than one of their own.



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annie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #105
107. i took the comment as...
a 'mccain vs. obama' vs 'Mccain vs. clinton' is going to be better with me b/c mccain vs. obama is going to make him look inexperienced. “I think you'll be able to imagine many things Senator McCain will be able to say" is referring to what he'll be able to say vs. barack in the GE contest, not who mccain will be as president.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #107
110. Inspired spin ...
... but sorry, ain't buyin'.
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annie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #110
111. well that was her point, so.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #111
112. No ...
... that was your point. Her point was, as they say, something else again.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #74
171. Ah and that is why I am keeping the clothes pin


In politics, one must of course be prepared to defend one's self against the opposition - but defending one's self against one's own party member has never been part of the mix - until now.

This is how I felt about all of those preachers calling me cursed and condemned at Obama events. We now have two candidates I don't see as Democratic in methods. I think for many of us we are left with no choice at all. It is very sad for me. This is the first time that either of the two who will be nominated has crossed lines in my personal sand that only Republicans have crossed before. Leaves me, like most voters, fully unimpressed. And yet I will have to register and organize voting for half the people I know, and promote these candidates as I have no choices left.
I will not forget the events of this cycle. I have learned much about the prejudices in our Party, and at DNC headquarters. Where I used to feel kinship, now I feel the need to watch my back, just like with the GOP. The Party is not home anymore, and I will never again assume Democrats to be open minded and liberal, at all. Too many people called me a faggot this year. You know, I've never been assualted verbally, until this cycle and the Obama baiting tour. Like it or not, the bigotry has been stunning. Not paying money to nurture that crap, you can count on that.
The problem for me is that this time I cared, and I wanted better. I should have just been willing to take what ever hack they put up there and voted and forgot about it. Looking too closely reveals the truth about the candidates, and that truth sucks, sorry to say, in both cases fairly equally although in different measures. I feel shafted and defrauded. I feel like we have 3 Republicans running, and two are sort of moderate in some ways.
They should both be talking about the economy, the Iraq exit, FISA, $4 gas, housing bubble, credit crunch, our standing in the world community, Impeachment or indictment, the missing billions in Iraq, Blackwater Mercs, spying on Americans, the actual nuts who have attacked us, not just once but three times....it just seems to me there is a long list not being talked about. And that does not even get to Single Payer, universal equality, improving education, our failing infrastucture....
But instead we call each other names and hold sermons to demonize our own. Whose priorites are these? Not mine.
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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #171
194. nor should they be the priorities of any true progressive.
Sadly they are more interested in topping each other with their "he said she said" rhetoric to see who will need the biggest clothes pin. They should be working to steer the campaign and their candidate in the direction needed to bring about real change not just enough to keep us complacent.
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LiberalLovinLug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #171
227. If we already had a clear winner..
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 04:33 PM by LiberalLovinLug
..then priorities could be refocused. First they have to fight each other to get the nomination. There is an expected ugliness that will come from this, and I can understand that their focus now would be mainly against each other, but Nancy's point is well taken: that its one thing to keep it in the ring its another to underhandedly endorse a neo-con worshiping dip-shit of a turncoat like McCain as a method of attack.

It makes me afraid to find out just what else is in Hillary's dirty bag of tricks if this one doesn't work! Another thing that puzzles me is that by this endorsement of the GOP candidate, and pandering to fear, she is appealing to who? Duct tape hording Republican voters? Doesn't make sense at this point in the game.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
69. you always put things way better than I could ever hope to
knr
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
71. I actually look forward to an Obama-McCain contest.
I really believe it will be a respectful ideological smackdown that will realign the parties and open up debate about the path we choose going forward. I think it will be therapeutic for America.

Thanks for posting this. :)
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
72. Thanks, NanceGreggs, I've got your back.
Lots of Hillary types swarming here on a DU Friday night, but they have shown themselves for what they are this week.

We are going to stand tall and true in the face of the unprecedented smear campaign by one Dem against another we are seeing.

Yes we can. They won't break us that easily. Thanks for the post.


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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
73. First mistake Hillary's campaign made was to act as if she was automatically entitled to the
nomination, to assume that if they bludgeoned the rest of us with gibberish about the "inevitability" of her being the nominee, we would all jump on board the train.

While she was doing that, she wasn't explaining why she SHOULD win the thing. She wasn't, for instance, doing a halfway decent job (or any job) of acknowledging that her vote for the IWR was a screw-up, and not just a garden variety screwup, but a big one...

I'm not the only one to notice this strategic goof. Hillary-supporting pundits have noticed it, too.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #73
81. Hell, on DU, well before Iowa, there were arrogant Hillary supporters...
huffing and puffing about her inevitability, and how us obama supporters would either fall in line or be ts'ed soon enough.
i didn't forget those posts.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #81
97. Yeah, I noticed it 8 months ago. And I was uncommitted to anyone except maybe Al Gore. nt
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #73
217. Yes it is narcissism and it stinks
She acts as if she is entitled to the nomination and her supporters have swallowed that hook, line and sinker. How dare Obama oppose her? How dare he expect to be nominated?
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blonndee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
76. Good argument, but no clothespin here.
I won't elaborate since this is DU after all, though.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
77. Kicking this, with special reference to the OP's paragraphs 1 through 18.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
78. Now THAT is constructive criticism
I agree with your position - great post. I think many of us who have been trying to remain open-minded to both of our fine candidates now have an uneasy feeling in their guts. Hillary has taken this primary to a place where it did not have to go. She has stepped over the line and she needs to step back before it's too late. I'm all for drawing distinctions that may even help toughen up our candidates for what they're likely to see in the fall. But giving the oppostion free ammunition with no possible upside is beyond reasonable. Though it could be said that Obama now knows what the fall is really going to be like. Maybe this will help in the end - we have had our more intellectual candidates (Kerry, Gore) get blindsided by the right in the past - at least Hillary is demonstrating what a real attack looks like - so maybe it's not all bad. :)
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #78
90. "Hillary has taken this primary to a place ....
... where it did not have to go."

As always, I can count on a fellow DUer to say in one sentence what I have attempted to say in a brazillion words.

As for Hillary demonstrating what a real attack looks like, that may be true. What is unfortunate is that the attack is coming from inside the party, when it should be coming from the other side.

"We've traced the call - and it's coming from inside the house!"

Great line in a horror movie - not so great in a political primary.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #78
96. Hugh, have a look at this thread I posted the other day--
Not because I was so goddam brilliant, but it drew a whole lot of very interesting, thoughtful and useful discussion.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4925156&mesg_id=4925156
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #96
109. Good post you linked to there
It's easy to see the negative in what's happening and post a flaming log, but to observe what is happening and still try "to make lemonade" as it were is much more productive and interesting IMO. One way or the other, we are stuck with whomever comes out of this process still standing and the Repukes aren't going to be playing softball!!!
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
82. if it comes to that I will be jumping with you
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kid a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
86. Perfect! nt
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Tuesday_Morning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
87. Thank you, Nancy!
:applause:
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
88. See... Now I Would Have Gone Just Completely Negative On Her, LOL !!!
But you are definitely welcome to borrow these!!!



:loveya:

:hi:rofl::hi:
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
92. You nailed it again...
as usual.
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nancyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
93. Superb, as always.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
95. I still have my clothespin.
The one I used twice while voting for Bill.

Good for you, Nance. This post took courage. I always respected your circumspect and positive approach to this Primary season, and have tried to emulate it, not always successfully (Sometimes I let slip a few barbs rather than cause grave injury to my tongue with my teeth). Yeah, I'm still with you. It's time to speak out about despicable tactics. It's time to call people out for fouling their own nest.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
100. K&R!
:applause:
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
101. You express my sentiments exactly, but in respect to Obama. I'll need a gas mask, not a clothespin.
My husband and the rest of our extended families will NOT vote for him though. They're what you would call ABO.



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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
102. K & R
:thumbsup:
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jlake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
103. I must disagree - strongly. But I appreciate your well thought out case and civil tone.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #103
108. As I appreciate your civil tone in responding ...
... and simply agreeing to the fact that we disagree.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
104. Yep Nance-
I've been very natural since my candidate suspended, and I have to mostly agree on this one. When I heard the comments it was like getting hit in the gut. My sister, who is a Hillary supporter and a Democratic voter since McGovern, even said it was wrong.

There's just some things you don't do, and for me, that was one. Thanks for the thoughtful post.
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Harry Monroe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
106. Great Post Nance!!
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 12:52 AM by NotGonnaTakeIt
But I'm thinking a paper bag over my head. I'll be so embarrassed for the Democratic Party if she wins the nomination and we have to vote for her!!!
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
113. K&R Once again you've nailed it.
Luckily it probably won't come down to needing a clothespin, because I'm not sure there would be one big enough for me.

Of all the writers on DU that I enjoy reading, for their excellent writing (and you for your humor, as well), I would guess that this is Nance REALLY angry, and still you manage you stay calm and logical in your post. I can't say the same for myself.

I'm angry, REALLY angry - It's doubtful she'll get my vote in her next Senate race, and if she becomes the nominee "by hook or by crook" (I'd venture the latter), I will sit this one out. I'm in a blue state, her adopted "home", and I just want her to go away.



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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
114. A great post, as usual...
You have expressed better than most of us can the type of frustration we are feeling with Senator Clinton right now. She is coming close to ruining our chances in the fall.
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Justice Is Comin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
119. In primaries, it is the modus operandi to
to go to the heart of your opponents weak points. The statement you are so influenced by was referenced in terms of the 3 AM phone call and there is no question in my mind obama would freak if he got one of nuclear proportions.

Obama is nothing more than a teacher with a key note address on his resume. No matter how much sugar you put on that, it does not equate to this person having the most power of any human in the world.

If and when that scenario comes to fruition, take it to the bank, Hillary will take the steps and say the words that will mend the statements interpretation. However I can not and will not vote for obama.

When he said he was sure all Hillary's voters would vote for him, but he wasn't so sure the other way around, he lost any shred of a chance I would vote for him. It is the height of presumptive arrogance, which defines him on every level. And I promise you, there are huge numbers that also tombstoned him after that statement right along with me.

Clothespin or no clothespin, it is more important to me to know I'm principled than it is to know I would concede my valued right to cast my ballot for someone I see as a disaster which would make me a participant. And I will not compromise it.


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desertflamingo Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #119
127. right on, justice...
that one put me over. i'm a former edwards follower and i was down on hillary, but i've been watching her closely and i like what i'm seeing. i'm not offended in the least about these supposed affronts to obama. i see a fighter, a super smart woman who's been around the block (meaning: WORLD) a few times, she's a sitting senator and i believe HER white house experience is far and above any that other first ladies have experienced. she is known and loved around the world. we can certainly use some of that right now. she's also been fighting against the neocons and now the obamites FOREVER and she's still standing and still smiling and still fighting. hmmm... yeah, i'd rather have her as president than some guy who can't distinguish between making a speech THAT HAD NO CONSEQUENCE vs making a decision that included taking into consideration constituents who had just had the shit blown out of them and their city AND wants to whine because clinton pointed out he doesn't have as much experience as her or the other candidate. cripes almighty. yeah, if he's the nominee... well, that's a long shot, so... never mind.
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ncsoapmaker Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:05 AM
Response to Original message
121. I don't get it
...when I saw her statement...I saw it for what it was, Hillary Clinton playing up her experience. Who will be best suited to run against McCain....Hillary with 35 years of experience...or Obama with little experience. I never once saw her taking sides with McCain as the better candidate over Obama.
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writes3000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #121
123. 1) Obama has 20 years of experience
2) Hillary knew EXACTLY what the implications of her words were. She easily could have said "I think McCain will run as the national defense candidate. I have a lot of experience with national defense issues. Senator Obama doesn't have that kind of experience."

What she actually said was entirely different.

"All Senator Obama has is a speech he gave in 2002."

Really? All Obama has to offer is a speech. Not one other accomplishment, life experience or position you can credit Obama for?

She put herself first. McCain, second. And then she insulted and dismissed Obama's 20 years in politics.

Hillary knew exactly what she was doing.

I get disgusted at her again just thinking about it.
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writes3000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #121
124. 1) Obama has 20 years of experience
2) Hillary knew EXACTLY what the implications of her words were. She easily could have said "I think McCain will run as the national defense candidate. I have a lot of experience with national defense issues. Senator Obama doesn't have that kind of experience."

What she actually said was entirely different.

"All Senator Obama has is a speech he gave in 2002."

Really? All Obama has to offer is a speech. Not one other accomplishment, life experience or position you can credit Obama for?

She put herself first. McCain, second. And then she insulted and dismissed Obama's 20 years in politics.

Hillary knew exactly what she was doing.

I get disgusted at her again just thinking about it.
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desertflamingo Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #121
125. i know, ncsoapmaker...
i feel the same way. i just feel as if the obama people are looking for ANYTHING to kick a fuss about - and i mean ANYTHING. or... they're just dumb, but i'm not going there. i think obama has been a despicable misogynist pig from day one in this campaign and to me, that's way worse than the b.s. the obamites keep kicking up. this thing about mc cain? pretty simple. and obama can't come up with anything to defend himself except stir up the shite on hillary. what an A**. anyway... can't wait to see what tomorrow brings. everyday it's some petty bull pucky...

oh, and if obama somehow ends up as the nominee? i'll be holding my nose, but it'll be when i check off nader's name. i will NEVER EVER vote for obama.
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LiberalLovinLug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #125
265. Turncoat
"i will NEVER EVER vote for obama."

Even after that vile stab at another Democrat by Hillary what you claim you will do if your favorite Dem is not the nominee is far worse. Even Hillary, when she loses, I can only assume, will retract the claws and openly support Obama. And she will cast a vote for him. But you will not, instead you will intentionaly help damage the country by helping to possibly facilitate another neo-con wannabe's royal ascension.

Hillary would be ashamed of you.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
126. Yep, I'll vote for her IF I HAVE TO.
But it's become painfully obvious (and I do mean painful, because I generally like and respect Senator Clinton) that she's taken her eyes off the prize, the real prize, which is having our country led by a decent, rational human being and not another neocon thug.

That prize is more important than her ascendancy to the Presidency. I don't care how much ambition is hard-wired into any human being; she's got to come to realize that, and stop campaigning against Obama like a goddamned Republican.
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
130. Thank you Nance, as usual you've said what I've been thinking far better than I could. nt
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:40 AM
Response to Original message
132. Agree on the Xerox comment and the AFAIK
People who get offended by that kind of typical campaign stuff need to get thicker skins. Clinton did cross the line by saying on more than one occasion that McCain would be preferable to Obama, and I'll just get into your clothespin stash if I may.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:44 AM
Response to Original message
133. thank-you and sadly
you speak for many of us who not only expected more from "Ms.Clinton," but now have to eat tons of crow at our next family holiday dinner where our rwing in-laws will be salivating at our next bite.

Thank-you Ms. Rodham, you truly know how to separate a family dinner in order to suit your personal agenda. x(
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:11 AM
Response to Original message
135. Would like some extra plastic sheeting and duct tape with that clothespin?
That is what I am going to need if she gets the Nom. :hi:
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:59 AM
Response to Original message
136. Hey Nance......
I understand the race has taken turns for the worse-On a daily basis. I don't defend Hillary's statement "What she has said, in no uncertain terms, is that given the choice between McCain and Obama, should she not be the nominee, McCain is the better choice over her own party member." And I'm troubled by that comment as well. But not to long ago, Michelle Obama, when asked if Hillary was the winner would she vote for her? Her lack of certainly, left the same troubling feeling. The lack of unity and the dash of hope is becoming clearer and clearer from watching both of these candidates. But I will be voting for a Democratic President.
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 06:52 AM
Response to Original message
137. And who will Hillary vote for?
If she is not the nominee, who will Hillary vote for? According to her, she will vote for McCain. Not Obama. And that is the point many will not take the high road and hold their nose and vote for her if she is the nominee. There is too much hypocrisy in her "campaign rhetoric" to overlook at this point. Focusing mainly on her supporters and on her refusal to release financial information which is being released anyway since much of it is easily obtainable. She has sold out her party and the people along with her husband. You can hold your nose and vote for her if you want. I suspect quite a few Democrats will take her advice and vote for McCain. And they will not be disloyal Democrats in doing so. Hillary Clinton is the disloyal Democrat. Having a (D) behind her name does not make her a Democrat.

I will vote for neither. I will vote for whoever else is on the ballot. Because my conscience will not allow me to vote for Hillary Clinton or John McCain. And my conscience is more important to me than anything else.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
138. Don't forget: Obama praised Reagan. What's the deal with our candidates sucking up to Republicans?
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 07:00 AM by Perry Logan
I'm appalled when any Democrat starts sidling up to these traitors.
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #138
140. Out of context
That has been taken out of context by Hillary's Hell's Angels and what he said was that Ronald Reagan energized the nation and its people. Nothing more. Reality is quite a few Democrats voted for Ronald Reagan. And quite a few Democrats became Republicans because of Ronald Reagan. If you want them back, by all means, invite them back. That includes the governor Texas. Governor Goodhair. Governor 39%.

Barack Obama did not say Ronald Reagan was a good president or an admirable president. He merely said Ronald Reagan energized a nation. We all wanted to believe in the shining city on the hill. We all wanted Camelot again. And you know what? We still do. And we see it through Barack Obama. Not John McCain. And certainly not Hillary Clinton.

The superdelegates will decide who the nominee is. They need to really look at the Clintons. Because Hillary is Hillary and Bill. Their financial dealings belie her campaign rhetoric and indicate the only interest of the Clintons is the Clintons. Not the American people.

Think about that when you go fill up at the gas station this week. A lot of their fortune has come from the Persian Gulf.

Nance is right to be idealistic. Her idealism, however, is really misplaced with regard to Hillary Clinton who does not deserve anyone's vote. Particularly when they have to hold their nose to vote for her.
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hell-bent Donating Member (593 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #138
157. Good point.
But, that's not what the Anointed One really meant! Was he appealing to those Reagan admirers?
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elizm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
139. Should Hillary Clinton, by hook or by crook ....
...become the nominee of the Democratic party, then I for one will never vote Democratic again because it will have been the Democrats who allowed it to happen. And I don't want to hear about how it is as good as electing a Republican because in my opinion electing Hillary would also be electing a Republican. The Clintons are so in bed with the Bushes that there is no difference at all.
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
141. Here are some fact:s (with opinions in parentheses)
1. The suggestion that what Senator Clinton "has said, in no uncertain terms, is that given the choice between McCain and Obama, should she not be the nominee, McCain is the better choice over her own party member" is a lie. Clinton did not say that McCain would be the better choice. She said that McCain has way more experience than Obama does. (That was a stupid thing for her to say, of course.)
2. Bill Clinton has said over and over again that he would support Senator Obama if Obama gets the nomination.
3. Michelle Obama refused to say that she would support Senator Clinton if Clinton gets the nomination (even more stupid than Senator Clinton's remark).
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 07:37 AM
Response to Original message
142. the last week has been pretty reprehensible by the clinton campaign
but I think the more extreme rhetoric from both sides is WAY over the top.

"Monster," "Ken Starr," Randi Rhodes all but equating Clinton with king george, "Rovian" . . . there is more mudslinging here than at a monster truck rally.

Neither candidate is a bona fide progressive. Neither candidate is a bona fide fascist. Both have received the corporate seal of approval. Both are better than any repuke.

The question is "how much better?"
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
143. I personally think both of the "historical" candidates are not prepared
to handle the Republican machine. Obama walked out of a Press conference saying he, "answered 8 questions".. Is that how he will run the whitehouse... and Hillary has way too many skeletons with that all empowering "Clinton" name that Republicans love to hate. This should have been a win-win year for the Dems.. but eveyrwhere I look in Florida, people are looking to McCain.
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DeeDeeNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
144. Once again, you've paraphrased my thoughts exactly!
I've been growing increasingly uneasy over her negative campaign strategy but chalking it up to her advisors, especially Mark Penn. She crossed the line for me the other day when she referred once again to the Obama - NAFTA controversy even though it has already been debunked and an apology had been issued to Obama. This is a Rovian tactic that W constantly used in his 2004 campaign - repeating falsehoods and innuendo about Kerry well after they had been shown as falsehoods.
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Hersheygirl Donating Member (353 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
145. I'm right with you on this
She reminds me of a spoiled brat, who when they can't get their way start throwing tantrums.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
146. " that all-important (D) behind her name"
will need more than your one clothespin to be mistaken for a spine.
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DWilliamsamh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
147. I was the 99th Rec.
Wish I had been the historical 100th. But I had to rec because I too had a last straw moment when Senator Clinton made her tacit endorsement of Senator McCain. I just don't think a reasonable person can see that statement as anything other than - "if it's not me it should be Senator McCain." As Gary Hart said over on HuffPo, Senator Clinton broke "the final rule."

Thanks Nance for putting things in a way that I couldn't, but agree with wholeheartedly. Like you, I will vote for Senator Clinton in the GE if by some unlikely set of circumstances she manages to be the Democratic Party nominee. but I will immediately seek to impose a state of amnesia about how she got there.
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Unbowed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
148. If she said it once in the heat of campaigning and distanced herself from the comment, one could
conclude that it was a mis-statement, that she was actually trying to say that she could better fight McCain in the general election. If she had immediately apologized for how the statement sounded and explained she didn't mean McCain was more qualified than Obama, then she could have lessened the damage her statement caused democrats.

However, she not only refused to apologize or distance herself from the implication of her statement, she REPEATED IT and REPEATED IT AGAIN.

I'm sorry, but I no longer consider Hillary R. Clinton a democrat. She is no more a democrat than is Joe Lieberman.

She simply cannot be the nominee. That would be a lie of monumental proportions.
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
149. Thanks for summing up the situation so well.
I can't believe how deeply her words playing up John McCain's experience and denigrating Senator Obama hurt emotionally. I have always admired her, but by her own words she tore down years of goodwill with that ploy. I always enjoy your essays. I admire this one especially.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
151. I know I'll get flamed for this, but... I honestly, honestly don't see it as most here do.
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 09:31 AM by Sparkly
I was going to PM you to avoid the flames, but I'll just post.

This isn't spin -- I truly don't see it the same way, and I've thought a lot about it.

To me, what she said might have been audacious, and I can understand the feeling that it was out of bounds. (Although that's not uncommon either, on all sides.) But I honestly didn't hear it as an "endorsement" of McCain, or a statement that he's better than Obama. He's more experienced than Obama, and that's a fact. (He's also more experienced than Clinton.)

IF experience is everything, then by implication she said he's superior to Obama. But experience is NOT everything. (Is it?) Policy positions are the main differences between Democrats and McCain, and on policy positions, there's no question that Obama is far superior to McCain.

Before anybody jumps on me to say I'm blind, or stupid or spinning or a 'bot' or whatever, please at least know I'm being honest. My intention isn't to defend her or attack him -- I honestly saw it differently from the start.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #151
162. and Obama's argument about judgment is a legitimate one
I don't think he's made it effectively against Clinton, because his actual record in the Senate is so similar on issues of national security and defense but, I think the argument about better judgment can certainly be made against McCain with not a little success.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #151
166. No flames here, but I think your comments merit discussion.
I'm glad you chose to go public with this. You may very well be right about what she said in a literal sense, but the problem as I see it isn't so much what she said as what can be done with it. Can you imagine McCain running against Obama using a collage of those "experience" clips and then doing a voice-over about how even the Democrats think Obama is a weak choice? She gave them a lot of footage, and they can get pretty creative with it. Of course the Republicans will come up with plenty of despicable stuff on their own, but why make it so easy for them? I just can't help but see this as a low business of giving aid & comfort to the enemy. Especially when you add it to some of the other things she's done: the hypocritical NAFTA barbs, the half-hearted "As far as I know..." nonsense, and it just adds up to a needlessly destructive scorched-earth campaign. Makes ya almost wonder if she's not helping McCain to win in '08 so she can run against him in '12.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #166
238. Thanks
I have heard that fear, but that's been said in primaries for as long as I can remember, and I don't remember it actually happening. I think if they want to say he's dangerously inexperienced, they'd show military brass or the family of dead soldiers or 9/11 victims or something. If she doesn't get the nom, she's pretty irrelevant.

(For the record, I didn't see the other two issues you raised as jaw-droppingly shocking, either. I'm starting to wonder if I just expect less from politicians than other people, or whether I'm seeing things as most are and it's most of DU that's seeing things differently, or what.)
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #151
190. well-said n/t
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writes3000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #151
200. But it wasn't an HONEST discussion about experience and that's what pushes it over the edge.
If Hillary really wanted to count all of their years of "experience" and do a fair comparison, I might agree with you.

But instead, she calmly and intentionally credited herself and McCain with the needed experience for the White House and then said the ONLY experience Obama had was a speech he gave in 2002.

It's nowhere near the truth. And if someone really pressed Hillary about it (perhaps at the next debate) she would be forced to admit it was a HUGE exaggeration.

Why would she exaggerate? Why would she demean her fellow Democratic nominee's experience to such a belittling degree while giving McCain all the credit in the world?

Because she prefers McCain to Obama? Sure as hell sounds like it.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #200
237. Okay
I can see the case that "a lifetime of experience" is something everybody brings to everything -- Obama too brings his lifetime of experience.

Exaggeration, distortions, attacks of all kinds come from all sides. I don't want to get into a big tit-for-tat here because it isn't the point, but when -- for the sake of example and to make the point, nothing more -- when Obama has said Clinton is "all about deceit" it was an exaggeration. Even if he believes she's deceitful, it's not literally true he considers her all about deceit, as he's praised her, as well. When he says she represents the failed policies of the past, it isn't literal -- their voting records, and proposals for the future, are extremely similar.

These are examples of exaggerations, as well. Anyone who claims Obama has no experience beyond a speech is also exaggerating.

My only point is that the shock and outrage of this one particular exaggeration, attack, call it what you will, seems disproportionate to me.
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Mira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
152. Thank you ! I was just now getting ready to explain why
I had said I was getting more infuriated with Mrs. Clinton every day...now all I have to do is send a link and go back to hitting my head against the wall.
K & R
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alteredstate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
163. If you can find a clothespin big enough to hide the stench generated by the Clintons' ugly campaign
please send me a link to the vendor, so I can purchase one. On second thought, I think I'm going to need more than a clothespin. Right now I shudder at the thought of voting for the Clintons. Is there a pill I can take to make me forget about the Clintons' blatant and unapologetic employment of Rovian tactics in this primary?
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
164. As an Official "non-committed", I agree wholeheartedly w/your
concern on this matter.

I too, find it disconcerting when any D, but particularly a D contender for president, sees McCain as anything but the shill he is...but to offer "support" for McCain is beyond the pale.

I have always respected HRC's intelligence and fortitude, but to even bring into the fray that McCain would even come close to being a "good" president is revolting.

I remain officially on the fence, but another serious gaffe like that will almost certainly push me off of said fence...x(
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shrub chipper Donating Member (622 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #164
256. Well, she has repeated it
at least two more times since then.

Will that push you off the fence?

It has me.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #256
260. Awfully foolish on her part...she'll get no support from me...
:(
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
165. I too had liked her a long time... before she campaigned for Prez.
I liked her better than Bill and had always thought she would be a good president. But the more I get to know her thru her campaign this past year, the more I think she differs very little from *.

If she is the nominee, I will vote for her ONLY because of the possible Supreme Court replacements needed in the next 4 years and not because I think she will bring about effective progressive leadership.
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
167. Another Nance Rants
that gets to the issues at hand with logic and reason. And although the Clinton campaign is using underhanded tactics in an underhanded business, using them on members of the home team is verboten.
Hillary has crossed the Rubicon. She managed to burn the bridge to the 21st Century. That comment about about McCain's qualifications exceeding Obama's was a bit too Lieberman for this Democrat.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
170. Beautifully written and civilly presented. I can't see how intelligent
dialogue gets much better than the OP's post.

There's both room for civil disagreement and cause for admiration of a very good writer's demonstrable skills.
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
172. you don't get a clothespin from me - sorry
nt
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Phillycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
173. As a Hillary supporter, I disagree with your post, but I do think it was a mis-step
on the Clinton campaign's part to make that statement. I don't see it as something that will destroy the Democratic party or anything nearly so dire, I just think it was a mistake. I know why they said it - it's been said already in this thread - the campaign was trying to draw distinctions between who should be running for president and who shouldn't, between who has a national political presence and who doesn't...but I do think it will come back to bite them later on, and that's why I think it was an error.

However, someone up above put it very well - the foreign policy experience is only PART of what one needs to be an effective POTUS, and the ideological and policy differences between McCain and either of our candidates are more than clear enough to draw distinctions in the minds of voters.

Thanks for a thoughtful post. I disagree, but I appreciate the manner in which is was presented.
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mcollier Donating Member (887 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #173
174. Fair Game.....
And it's not just 'Obama supporters' who are angry. There are tons of people now coming out publically against her tactics who have not spoken out
before and many who are withdrawing their support because of it. But you have every right to defend your candidate to the death...so carry on.


"Lastly, it's time for me to step out of the sh*tstorm and take a shower to wash off the slime and disappointment. I’ve had enough of the Clinton fluffing of McCain, and

I’m done with her. Frankly I’ve looked foolish trying to defend her and her campaign’s burn-the-house-down-to-get-the-nomination strategy, and I’m tired of seeing this

message and these tactics. Politics at this level is not softball, but as I have said before, being an arsonist does not recommend one for the party’s nomination."

http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/012095.php


I ask you to join the Obama team to help take our country in an new direction, one of openness, honesty, integrity, hope, respect, wise judgment and prosperity...

Together we can make the difference. We all have worked hard to get power back to the people. With Barack Obama, we have that opportunity...


Thanks All,

MC

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Phillycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #174
177. No thanks.
I prefer Hillary, who is brave enough to get passionate and sometimes make errors, to Obama, who always says the right thing but has nothing to back it up. Hillary is more qualified to be president. She will do a better job once in office. That is why I'm voting for her.
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Blue Fire Donating Member (588 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #177
254. Endorsing a rethug over a fellow Democrat is hardly an "error".
It's not an error of speech, nor judgement, nor is it rooted within passion. It's rooted in her egocentric delusion that she is somehow entitled to the office of President of the United States. I'm not convinced she's good enough to be referred to as a DINO.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
176. I could've forgiven her McCain almost-endorsement if she'd walked it back
I'm infinitely patient with primary season rhetorical missteps. People in the heat of the moment sometimes say dumb things. Saying McCain would be better equipped is a dumb thing, but an understandable contrast for her campaign to draw.

But once you make a mistake, you have to have the intellectual integrity and partisan loyalty to walk it back, to clarify, or at least to equivocate your way out of helping your opponents. Even a beast doesn't foul its own nest. Clinton is showing character flaws here. The country should always come before one's ambitions. If she wasn't behind in delegates, Clinton would know that.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #176
209. Yes, exactly.
When I first heard Hill's statement, I put it down to a moment's bad judgment - one of those things she would attempt to clarify after realizing how it could be (and was, for the most part) perceived.

It was only after I learned she had made this same statement on several occasions that I realized it was not an unfortunate choice of words - but a deliberate and calculated comment.

And now the inevitable backlash cometh - and it ain't gonna be good for Hill.

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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
178. I have gone from having nothing against her but thinking her unfavorables too high to
despising her in 2 weeks. I cannot even look at her without feeling revulsion. I should be reserving that emotion for McCain
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
179. "a declaration that a Republican in the White House is preferable to an Obama win in November"
I think that's a bit of a stretch. I viewed Hillary's words as an attempt to point out that the Dems will have a better chance against the experienced McCain if we nominate a candidate who also has lengthy experience in her resume.

I also think she's wrong because Obama showed much better judgement on Iraq in 2002, but I don't think Hillary was endorsing McCain over Obama in her statement.

I voted for Obama and his delegates in the Illinois primary. I held my nose when I voted for Kerry in 2004 as I would have for Edwards Biden or Dodd if they won the 2008 nomination. A vote for the IWR in 2002 is still inexcusable poor judgement in my book.

Hillary's statement and recent campaign tactics also border on the inexcusable, but I think she has fallen far short of stating or even implying an endorsement of McCain over Obama.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
180. My nose is resistant to even Industrial Strengh clothespins in '08.
And, is in open rebellion to further abuse.
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Kajsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
182. Doing the work for the Repubs.
With Hillary going after Obama's " lack of experience"
and praising McCain for having such experience,

she is doing all the research for the Repubs!


By attacking Obama's " lack of experience"
and credibility,she is mapping out a game plan
for McCain's staff to fine tune in the GE.

Let's not give them the ammo!

Instead, our candidates should be focusing on their qualifications, their accomplishments,
their goals and their ability to counter Republican roadblocks to those goals.

Great post, Nancy!

:applause:

Hillary not only crossed the line, she threw the Democratic party
into the dumpster.
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Irishonly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
183. November Nominee Supporter
Thank you Nancy. My candidates of choice left the race long ago and I admit I have never been able to get excited about either Obama or Clinton. I also hate the angst on the underground and I fear another 68 until I realize most of the US isn't as passionate about politics as bloggers and members of political rooms are. I have always said I would support the nominee because another republican in the WH causes me to have unspeakable nightmares.

Your post is one of the few that clearly states why you are not a Hillary supporter without demeaning her. I also loved her as first lady and I also find myself appalled at the campaign she is running. My opinion for what it is worth is that she thought the primary season would be a cake walk and wasn't prepared for the enthusiasm of Obama supporters. Obama can drive me nuts at times but they also remind me of a much younger Irish in the 70s when we fought so hard to get the vote. We haven't seen a movement by our young in a long time. I am glad they are here and I hope they never lose their desire for change. Too many boomers turned into pirates.
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TexasLady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
184. I dont get her strategy
IF she were to become the Dem nominee, the Repugs are going to use this against her again, and again, and again. She shot herself in the foot, no matter what she 'meant' by it. She's a smart lady, why would she do that to herself?
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vireo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
185. In the words of an Obama adviser
Even some Obama advisers see a real problem. "Ultimately, all that matters is how the nominee stacks up against John McCain," said one adviser who spoke on the condition of anonymity, referring to the senator from Arizona and presumptive GOP nominee. "Right now, Barack is not connecting with the children of the Reagan Democrats. That's a real concern."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/03/08/ST2008030800051.html
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
187. I am a little more sensitive so I will be using a gas mask.
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
188. Nance, once again you have nailed the issue. Hillary made that
charge on at least two occasions and it is inexcusable. I have been supporting Hillary as well as I can, despite several positions and tactics I personally disagree with. Personally I do not understand how either Hill or Obama are still standing. This election cycle has been way too long. That said I am totally disgusted with the McCain deal from Hillary. In fact yesterday I e-mailed her web site and I called her office in DC and in both instances I made it quite clear that this is unacceptable. I also made it clear that if Clinton uses that tactic again I will no longer support her. If she hears from enough of us, it might make a difference. McCain is a war-mongering Bush-kisser. To promote such a person, who is not even a dem, is beyond any realm of sensible campaigning.
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DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
191. Morning Kick
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
193. I am happy to recommend this post
More than anything else, I am baffled at how candidates pull out the big guns against others in their own party, and then expect voters to ignore all the muck that has been thrown when the general election rolls around. Personally, I think both Obama and Clinton are bad choices, but I have to say: the tactics used by Clinton's campaign, and the comments that she herself keeps making, keep putting Obama in a better light by comparison.

Come November, I will vote for the Dem candidate, not only with a clothespin on my nose but at arms reach and without telling any of my friends. I just wish by all the Powers that there was someone else -- ANYone else -- that I could vote for without feeling dirty and shameful.
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Chalco Donating Member (817 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
195. Me thinks you misunderstand.
I'm sorry but I generally like your pieces but...in this case, my interpretation of what Hillary was saying was that she and McCain are equivalent in the experience realm, therefore, she could go against him and win easily when the two of them are considered in terms of the progressive vs not progressive aspects of their agendas. Whereas, Obama having no experience could be beaten by McCain because McCain outdoes him on said experience. McCain obviously doesn't outdo Obama on agendas.

She was NOT endorsing McCain.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #195
206. There was nothing in her remarks to misunderstand.
At this point in the race, Hillary's chances of being the nominee are slim at best. And she's not stupid; she knows that.

So with that in mind, she compares herself to her GOP opponent and, in the same breath, dismisses her Dem opponent as being not on a par with either herself or McCain.

"All Obama has is a speech he made in 2002." She stated that knowing full well that he will most likely be the Democratic nominee. and the message she's left lingering in her fellow party members' ears is this: I should be your first choice and, if I'm out of the race, McCain is the obvious second choice.

There's way to spin that. She's harped on the idea of her experience over Obama's time and again - fair game. But when she brings the Republican nominee into the equation and declares unequivocally that he is the better choice than her fellow Dem, that is out-of-bounds.
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Chalco Donating Member (817 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #206
215. Did she say that?
"I should be your first choice and, if I'm out of the race, McCain is the obvious second choice."
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #215
219. Did she make that exact statement?
No, which is why I didn't put it in quotes.

What I've said is that is the message she has left with many Democratic voters. And if her intention was otherwise, why has she repeated her statement over and over, now knowing how it is being perceived?

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Chalco Donating Member (817 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #219
267. At GW where she gave a foreign policy speech she said
the following "But in terms of foreign and security policy, in the calamitous wake of President Bush, Sen. McCain can't seem to budge from the Bush approach that insists on using military force when diplomacy is needed."

I just spent an hour trying to track down the entire "experience" quote to which you referred but can fine nothing but the one sentence so it is impossible to discern the context, but her foreign policy speech from which I quoted above supports my notion that what she was saying was that she outdoes Obama on experience. She is equal to McCain on experience but trumps him on position on issues (unless you're a war monger.)

I stand by my comments.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #267
268. Here's the quote:
"I think that I have a lifetime of experience that I will bring to the White House. I know Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience that he will bring to the White House, and Senator Obama has a speech he gave in 2002."

If she is trying to compare her experience to Obama's, why was McCain even mentioned? The statement is clear: She is telling the voters that McCain is more qualified than her fellow Democrat.

I am outraged by that not as an Obama supporter, but as a Democrat. You don't point to the GOP contender and say, "This guy is a better bet than a Democrat."

I appreciate that you stand by your comments. What bothers me is the fact that Hillary stands behind hers.

Although I have been behind Obama from the beginning, I have never said anything negative about Hillary before this OP - in fact, I have defended her on many occasions, and praised her substantial abilities.

But she crossed the line, and I am seriously disappointed in her. For someone running on their vastly superior experience, that same experience should have told her that this statement would be unacceptable.

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Chalco Donating Member (817 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #268
269. I have that quote. What I can't find is what came before and after.
That would be the context. That's what I can't find anywhere. That particular quote from the press conference has been repeated ad nauseum. That doesn't mean its meaning is accurately portrayed since the context is not there.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #269
270. She said it four different times ...
... at least (there is a video of it in the Video Forum here).

I don't see that any context could have changed this. She said that the GOP nominee is more qualified to be president than her fellow Democrat. I can't imagine any context in which that would be acceptable.

It is to be expected that she will compare herself to Obama, and compare herself to McCain. But to compare Obama to McCain and say that McCain is the more qualified choice between the two is out of bounds.
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ldf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
196. sorry, nance
for once, i have to disagree with you.

and as a disclaimer, my first choice was gore. that got taken from me by mr. gore, himself.

he decided to not be involved.

my second choice was edwards. that got taken from me by democratic voters (and the m$m).

kucinich's heart is where mine is, but for some reason he has never been given the chance, nor will he be. that is reality.

that leaves hillary and obama.

i prefer hillary over obama BECAUSE of the experience issue.

he is green. he needs more time.

i'm not a big hillary supporter because, although being a HUGE bill fan, as time grows between now and then, i am able to see more realistically his presidency. i have gotten past the "the clintons walk on water" worship. his presidency was good in many ways, not so good in others, but if he had been able to keep it in his pants we would now have gore in the whitehouse and, well, we will never know what could have been.

but now it is down to hillary and obama. i have stated my "orientation", as it were.

i think ANYONE, looking at "experience", would have to say mccain has the most political experience, with a tremendous amount of highly charged history BEFORE he got into politics.

he HAS the experience.

bill's presidency was almost a co-presidency. hillary was involved in more than we will ever know. she has already dealt on an international stage with so many foreign leaders that she ALREADY is on a first name basis with many.

i don't agree with many of hillary's stands. she doen't go near far enough, she is still a part of the problem of our democratic leadership.

but i do think she will listen, and do the best she can.

when hillary says she thinks mccain has more experience to be president than obama, she is just stating fact, because mccain has the MOST of the three.

but there are two battles going on.

the first, obviously is to be the nominee of the democratic party, and she feels she has more experience than obama. she does.

but, let's say she does get the nomination.

then there will be a different battle.

it won't be between hillary and mccain, it will be between the vision of the democratic party for the nation, and the REALITY of republican rule for the last seven years.

with those comparisons, if framed properly, a ham sandwich would win.

i have frequently echoed that i will hold my nose, but anytime i am not voting for my first choice, i AM holding my nose. unfortunately that is the reality of current politics.

as far as the sniping here on du, it is stomach turning. and i frequently slip, and dip my toe into the fetid waters of the gutter. but hey, we're all human.

it's the posters who are here to do nothing BUT be vicious, that bothers me.

i have never put anyone on ignore, but i sure don't have to read their posts. only when i DO, do i lose control and do a little toe-dipping.

all i can say for that is, my bad.

but back to your reasoning, (i do tend to rant AND ramble, simultaneously), hillary's expression concerning experience is the reality.

the real war, AFTER november, will be between the hope of the democratic party and the overt greed, racism, bigotry of george w bush, whom we will tie around john mccain's neck like a two-ton anchor.

if we do it right, it will be a cakewalk, whether obama is on the top, or hillary is on the top.

but that's just my 2 cents, and i offer it with much humbleness.
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Patriot Abroad Donating Member (242 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #196
201. Good Response!
Politics is a contact sport - but she's turning off Democrats and needs to not burn down her village to save it . . .

:applause:
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Patriot Abroad Donating Member (242 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
198. Lieberwoman: "I am more important than the party" nt
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BumRushDaShow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
199. K&R
:kick:
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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
204. Thanks NG...
I have found you to always be a voice of reason. and I'm behind you in your thinking. As I've posted before, IF in 2004, Howard Dean would have called himself and George Bush more qualified than John Kerry--would that have set off an alarm? anyone?

Doesn't she get we're on the SAME team?
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NastyRiffraff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
205. I'll probably be flamed (not by you, Nance) but..
I have to disagree on this one. I watched that statement in real time, and it never even crossed my mind that Hillary was saying anything to even hint that McCain was "better" than Obama. I can now understand how people can stretch it, but that doesn't make that true.

What IS true is that yes, McCain DOES have more experience than Obama (and Clinton) has. That's indisputable. And if Hillary had followed that by saying that experience in that area is the ONLY or even the MOST important thing, I could see your point. But she didn't, because of course she didn't mean to imply that McCain is a better candidate, or more qualified than Obama overall.

I do agree it was a rather clumsy statement, and I wish she hadn't put it quite that way. I wish she had made her point (that she is better qualified than Obama to go up against McCain) more clearly. But in no way was this an endorsement of McCain, and those saying so should know better.
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writes3000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #205
207. Once again, here's why it was damn close to an endorsement of McCain.
If Hillary really wanted to count all of their years of "experience" and do a fair comparison, I might agree with you.

But instead, she calmly and intentionally credited herself and McCain with the needed experience for the White House and then said the ONLY experience Obama had was a speech he gave in 2002.

It's nowhere near the truth. And if someone really pressed Hillary about it (perhaps at the next debate) she would be forced to admit it was a HUGE exaggeration.

Why would she exaggerate? Why would she demean her fellow Democratic nominee's experience to such a belittling degree while giving McCain all the credit in the world?

Because she prefers McCain to Obama? Sure as hell sounds like it.

Just my opinion. But a lot of others seem to agree - including some former Hillary supporters.
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Levgreee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #205
230. And if Hillary had followed that by saying that experience in that area is the ONLY or even the MOST
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 04:03 PM by Levgreee
important thing..."


She's been saying that throughout the whole campaign.
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
210. That was the part that got to me, the McCain blunder
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 01:45 PM by OhioBlues
I wish she hadn't done that and done it several times. :sigh:
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
211. If we award a fraud with a vote, what we get is a fraudulent leader. That's no prize. nt
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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
212. BIG K & R
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
213. It seems to me that that renders her supporters on DU persona non grata.
How could they meet the DU requirement of generally supporting Democratic aims (or words to that effect, I believe)?

We knew you she was a corporatist, even an imperialist, and very close with the Republicans - yes, even the current ones - but to spell it out so clearly?!?!
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
214. You can have the clothespin off my nose as soon as I'm done reading this thread
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
216. I call her campaign the Roto-Rooter campaign.
Cuz it's full of shit.
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Utopian Leftist Donating Member (204 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
218. Fantastic!
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 02:15 PM by Utopian Leftist
You are an incredibly gifted and eloquent writer, Ms. Greggs! Now about this:
IF she were to become the Dem nominee, the Repugs are going to use this against her again, and again, and again. She shot herself in the foot, no matter what she 'meant' by it. She's a smart lady, why would she do that to herself?

That has been my question ever since she made the comments and, having thoroughly wracked my brain, I can come to only one conclusion: Hillary KNOWS that it is impossible for her to win the nomination this year without persuading a HUGE number of superdelegates to subvert the will of the Democratic voters and support her. The math simply is NOT there for any other conclusion. Which means that, barring some unexpected catastrophe of enormous proportion, she CANNOT gain the nomination. So there can be only one explanation: she is doing everything conceivably in her power to ensure that America votes John McCain into office this year so that she can come back and be the Democratic nominee in 2012.

Seriously, think about it. That is her ONLY remaining hope of EVER becoming President at this point AND SHE KNOWS IT! She is simply too smart to shoot herself in the foot at this point and there is no other explanation that makes any sense whatsoever.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
220. I don't know what you mean by clothespin but this gets a high recommendation
This is a great post.
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Berry Cool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
221. K&R
You took the words right out of my mouth, Nance.
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fadedrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #221
236. Kick
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
223. Thank you for putting into words , how I feel.
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 02:43 PM by myrna minx
This last week was the last straw for me too.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
224. Thank you for putting into words. how I feel.
This last week was the last straw for me too.
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
226. Another fine bit of writing, NG.
Yes indeedy. Compromise is one thing, but sacrificing principle for personal gain is...well...so Karl Rovian.
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sss1977 Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
229. Fascinating...
So you think she's gone too far, and has thrown her party under the bus in her final attempts to win the nomination at all costs, which could very well be the splintering of the Democratic party... but you'll STILL vote for her because of the (D) at the end of her name? Ha... Personally, I use my vote to vote for things like principles, ideas, leadership, and not so much for letters.

Would you also drink sour, curdled, chunky milk over anything else because you prefer milk?
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #229
231. It's called the Supreme Court.
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 04:23 PM by Patsy Stone
(for one thing)

How much further to the right would you like to see it go?

K&R
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #229
232. It simply comes down to the fact ...
... that neither Hillary Clinton, nor any other Democrat I can think of, could possibly be more reprehensible than a President McCain.

Voting for a (D) over an (R) is in complete keeping with principle
No. 1: This country cannot survive another four to eight years of a Republican in the White House, nor can it withstand another RW nutcase being appointed to the Supreme Court.

In the great scheme of things, some principles simply trump others.
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No Blood for Hubris Donating Member (171 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
239. I completely disagree.
Just thought you'd like to know.
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merkins Donating Member (309 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
240. Is there a DLC War Room somewhere
where they use multiple identities on DU and pounce at the get-go at any post thats negative to Hilary?
Just one after the other .. days on end.
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cseper Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
241. Are we ready to give the smooth-talking stranger.....
anything he wants even if it means throwing some old friends under the bus. That makes no sense to me.
People see themselves in Obama, they love him, they need him, they can't
live without him but they can't explain why - they just want somebody to love.
Is there any room for logic here?
We're about to give someone unlimited power - should it be an unknown? That only beat Alan Keyes!
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #241
244. You are stating 'facts' not in evidence ...
"People see themselves in Obama, they love him, they need him, they can't live without him but they can't explain why - they just want somebody to love. Is there any room for logic here?

The fact that this is your perception of Obama supporters does not make it an actual fact - any more than someone stating the same about Hillary supporters would make that a fact.

Besides, this has absolutely nothing to do with the OP, the entire focus of which was Hillary's remarks.

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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
242. YOU started out fine. now I need a Clothespin after reading the rest.
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #242
246. This thread has become a hard act to answer...
because the 'truth' lies somewhere in the middle and not out there on the fringes.

The records of both Hillary and Obama are quite similar. Both are well-educated. Both have records of accomplishment. What separates them at this point is simply words. Political rhetoric.

Where both differ from the Right though is in the selection of Supreme Court and Federal judges. There are other areas equally important where BOTH will select people better able to rebuild a failing country.

Both. Not just one or the other. Neither's skirts/pants are clean politically. There is no way to achieve that whilst engaged in the great game of politics. Both have stumbled a few times to this point and, being human, both will continue to stumble from time to time in the future.

As to the much discussed McCain statement by Hillary--she was correct in that she and McCain do have more experience than Obama. That is entirely true. Doesn't mean much how she said this...truth will out in the end. Her comment was not even close to any sort of endorsement and most of us are sophisticated enough to understand that. The important point is that what was unsaid was that their experience was totally different. Hillary and McCain's experience is out there for everyone to compare. Obama's not so open and clear...and most certainly not as extensive.

Being a primary, this is not the time for our two leaders to take on the Repugnant machine, but to compare each other's record so as to show a difference. There is absolutely no doubt that either Obama or Hillary will be better for the country as president.

Rather than sniping comments about one or the other of our candidates, it is time for honest and open appraisal of the pasts and potential futures of either.

If we do not achieve unity in the next few months, we will fail to change the path we are headed down. Either of our two people can make these changes and will undoubtedly do so.

He says/she says sniping will do little in the end to achieving unity. That is the direction we must head in at this point. How we go about this is up to us all.

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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
245. Clothespin for R. Gibbs, Communications Dir. for Barack, and who knows what else behind the scenes.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
247. It's the old triangulation game once again.
Playing both sides against the middle.
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Raffi Ella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
248. lol,
blah blah blah - Journal Updated

and Obama Underground goes wiiiiild!!!!

As they were expected to.

This post could have easily been written about Obama as I think he has committed some pretty abhorent 'sins' over the course of this primary.

The fact that you don't acknowledge this same sentiment about Obama's remarks regarding RayGun,his exploitation of race in S.C. and the right wing talking points to disparage two of Our Finest to "win at all cost" by throwing Them under the Bus but you are willing ready and able to see it in Hillary Clinton speaks of your bias and little else.

Yours is a position you've chosen to take,nothing more,nothing less.It speaks volumes about the nature of divide and conquer going on within the Obama campaign.I'm sorry to see you're yet another who has fallen for the tactic.

Hopefully come Novemeber you can ease your discomfort of having to vote for her with your holier than thou attitude that you seem to be basking in at the moment.
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salbi Donating Member (195 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
249. We may need to buy clothespins by the case...there are lots of us who will need them!
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LulaMay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
250. ABC & NBC: Hillary Now Leads Obama in Popular Vote, and Dem Vote.

New Network Estimates: Hillary Now Leads Sen. Obama in Popular Vote

ABC & NBC reporting that Hillary’s received thousands more votes than Sen. Obama in this year’s contests

Hillary Clinton has received more votes than anyone else running for President this year, Democrat or Republican, according to new estimates from ABC and NBC News. The new numbers -- bolstered by decisive wins in Ohio, Texas, and Rhode Island. Following are the latest estimates from the networks:

ABC: Hillary Clinton has received 13,568,891 votes so far in primaries and caucuses while Sen. Obama has received 13,565,339.

NBC/MSNBC: Hillary Clinton has received 13,521,832 votes so far in primaries and caucuses while Sen. Obama has received 13,497,175.

In addition to the overall lead in votes, Hillary holds a significant lead in votes among Democrats. Hillary has received nearly 10.3 million votes among Democrats so far while Sen. Obama has received 9.2 million.
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Blue Fire Donating Member (588 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #250
252. Link(s), please?
Just to back up your numbers.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #250
253. Oh, that's right ...
... I forgot we're not counting delegates this time around.
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GoldieAZ49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #250
259. state the facts of those numbers please
Hillary has a total of 3355 IF YOU COUNT FL & MI, where Obama did not campaign

otherwise Obama leads in the popular vote as well

Thank you very much
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GoldieAZ49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
255. Hillary's words send a message to America on National Security
When Clinton was asked if she could name one instance where she had to make a critical decision like the one she references in the "It's 3 a.m." ad that began airing this week she said the question was framed incorrectly.

"No one who hasn’t been president has done that. That’s not the right question," she said. "The question is what have you done over the course of a lifetime to equip you for that moment. Now I think you will be able to imagine many things Sen. McCain will be able to say. He has never been the president. He will put forth his experience. I will put forth my experience. Sen. Obama will put forth a speech he made in 2002."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/03/clinton-reduces.html

This clearly lets everyone in the country know that as far as she is concerned only she and McCain are equipped to meet this country's national security needs.
We are a country at war. We do have enemies around the world. Yes the economy is a growing concern, but I think you would agree that the fear of attack is greater than the fear of the economic slow down. If past elections (ours and other countries) are any indication (I believe they are) then we will be threatened in some manner leading up to the GE, again.

National security will be a key issue in the GE, and fear gets more votes than hope and change ever will with a war going on. The message will remain, and be replayed by the GOP and 527's of Hillary speaking about Obama only having a speech (and a lot more unrelated material to be sure). Most indies and moderate repubs will wish him well, hope to see him run again in the future, and vote for McCain.

They should not have one of the leaders of the Democratic Party (I still think Bill & Hillary are, as the last elected Dem POTUS) to use in their propaganda.

I doubt she can successfully pull off getting the nomination, but if she did, why would she be trusted with the SCOTUS appointments when she has shown her only interest is her own power? If she cannot have the nomination no Democrat can.

Does the D after her name stand for Democrat or Disgusting?

Thanks Nance

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argyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
261. I'll see your clothespin and raise you a barfbag. Her de facto endorsement of McCain
over Obama is truly beyond the pale.Yeah,I'll vote for her,mainly for future SCOTUS and other federal judgeships and little else.

We've had nominees that were lackluster and less than inspiring and I had no trouble pulling the lever for them but if she wins it....

Well,I've voted for every Democratic nominee since McGovern and will do the same in 2008 regardless,but if I walk out of the polling booth after voting for Obama I'll be walking with considerably more spring in my step than if I'd just voted for the alternative.
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istopforcookies Donating Member (50 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #261
264. Thrown under the bus?
You mean like Obama throwing women, lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, and transgendered under the bus?

Oh, I'm slave. My masters have ordered me to vote for St. Obama.

Not Going To Happen.

Try again.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
266. kick n/t
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GoldieAZ49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
271. Here is the ad, surprised it is out so fast - on youtube
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