Let's See Some PROOF, Hillary Bashers!

[Danzo]

I've seen a lot of you FRAME the discussion with the implicit premise that Hillary said that she deserves credit for every single accomplishment of Bill Clinton's administration. It would appear to me as though your premise is a STRAW MAN ARGUMENT.

I'm an open minded guy, though. If you Hillary bashers can offer me some PROOF that Hillary said that she deserves credit for every one of Bill's accomplishment, I shall apologize for accusing you all of setting up a straw man arguments.

Let's see the proof, Hillary bashers.

[Yes We Did]

1. Try youtube-ing a debate or two.

And it's not just us... It's ALL the blogs, newspapers, pundits, news shows...

I don't have to give you proof of shit, not when it becomes common knowledge.

[Danzo]

2. Cop Out.

Uh uh, you're sounding a little defensive, bucko.

Common knowledge? It was common knowledge that the earth was flat, too.

[Yes We Did]

8. I don't really give a shit about the 90's.

Let's talk about now.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hs4my_9Ms5U

Let's talk about things she won't take credit for, but should.

[Danzo]

14. Red Herring

That video had NOTHING to do with my thread.

[Yes We Did]

29. Read this.

Hillary says everything by saying nothing.

http://www.americablog.com/2008/03/really-hillary-name-one.html

[Danzo]

43. Another Straw Man Premise From A Hillary Basher

"Name one world crisis, Hillary, where you were the one really in charge, and not your husband, the president."

Show me some proof that Hillary claimed that she, and NOT her husband was in charge of the nation.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

59. She's the one claiming to be "Ready On Day One".

She needs to prove it. It's not our fault she can't, no matter how much you try to make it so.

[Trajan]

3. Trolling for criticisms from critics ?

I feel more and more alienated from posters here. Every other post is a candidate-hatred thread, and some ask for more ? ....

Criminy ....

[Swamp Rat]

4. "Every other post is a candidate-hatred thread"

This is by design.

[Danzo]

6. What?

It's not their fault for putting forth a fraudulent argument, it's MY fault for CALLING THEM ON IT? Is that what you're saying?

[Johnny__Motown]

5. She takes credit for them one at a time. It amounts to the same thing .

[Danzo]

7. Proof?

[anonymous171]

9. 35 year of Experience.

[Danzo]

11. Wrong.

Saying that you have 35 years of experience is NOT the same as claiming credit for all of Bill's accomplishment.

Did Hillary say that she had 35 years of experience as a US PRESIDENT? I didn't think so.

[anonymous171]

13. If she took eight years off and said "27 years" I wouldn't mind.

[Danzo]

15. You Put Words In Her Mouth

She never said that her experience as a first lady was the same as being president.

[anonymous171]

16. She says 35 years make her "ready on day one" to lead.

[Danzo]

32. Wrong Again

She's saying that he experience PREPARES her to be ready, no that it's IDENTICAL to the experience of actually being PRESIDENT.

You put words in her mouth again.

[Johnny__Motown]

30. she said something like that... on the end of this video I have posted here 3 times now

&t=OEgsToPDskJt5aWR4w5csY3vVdhdDOVU


http://jedreport.vodpod.com/video/956648-disloyal-democrat-hillary-clinton-picks-mccain-over-obama


waiting for a response

[Yes We Did]

36. link not working... or youtube is down.

[Joe the Revelator]

17. I hate people like you. You ask for proof, and when you're given it, its never enough

What else could she possibly mean when she includes Bill's presidency in her 35 years of experience??

[Danzo]

18. Get A Clue

Ever heard of vicarius learning?

Not to mention the fact that she was ACTIVE in some of the administrative work for Bill Clinton.

[anonymous171]

19. No briefings, no security clearance.

What exactly was she doing that's ON RECORD?

[Yes We Did]

26. We'll never know, will we? I mean, I know she drank a lot of tea...

[Danzo]

27. Intiated Several Government Reforms

"She also successfully sought to increase the research funding for illnesses such as prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institute of Health."

"Perhaps the most successful component of her accomplishments as First Lady was initiating the Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, a federal effort that provided state support for those children whose parents were unable to provide them with health coverage"

More first lady accomplishments here:

http://www.firstladies.org/biographies/firstladies.aspx?biography=43

[Yes We Did]

35. OH, after her pathetic attempt at Universal Healthcare fell flat? Yeah.

[Mooney]

28. Vicarious learning?

What parts of "presidenting" did she learn vicariously? Just the stuff Bill Clinton did well, or did she absorb his fuckups too?

If the presidency is such an easy job that all it requires is some job shadowing, then sure, I guess she'll be fine. Because, you know, she overheard stuff.

[Danzo]

39. "Overheard Stuff"?

You think maybe since she's the WIFE of Bill Clinton she might have spoken to him DIRECTLY about his experiences of being president?

[Mooney]

47. That still doesn't count as experience, genius.

My wife tells me, directly, about what she did at work every day when she gets home, but that doesn't make me a pre-school teacher, or in any way qualified to become one. I still have to go and get independently certified. You're expecting Hillary to be able to bypass this process.

There is also no way of quantifying what Hillary learned, if anything. She may have learned a lot. She may have learned nothing. She may have learned things that are now ten years out of date. THERE'S NO WAY TO KNOW, except to take her word for it.

[cali]

34. She frequently speak of "we" and "us" when recounting

what she considers the accomplishments of the Clinton administration. I don't really have a problem with it. She was an activist first lady for at least part of those 8 years, and she took the heat for it at the time, so I'm not about to say that her experience in the White House was meaningless. She obviously was an important advisor to her husband on certain issues. She does take credit for the Clinton years. Why bother denying it?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

61. But she only was vicariously learning and active for the good things, not the bad. Right? nt

[mrreowwr_kittty]

45. DUers who make these ultimatums tend to move the goalposts.

This one obviously wants to force you to accept his premise. You are supposed to uncritically accept Hillary's account of her experience and not delve into any specifics of it.

[Danzo]

65. Nope.

No one is FORCING anyone to accept a premise. It goes without saying that you're entitled to disagree with me.

[akbacchus_BC]

73. Yes, she did claimed she has 35 years of experience. What is wrong...

you clintonistas? She is a sham and get over yourself!

[FogerRox]

12. You mean a lifetime of experience

http://www.youtube.com/v/ou4JnWQsxKw

[Danzo]

22. Please.

She clearly meant POLITICAL experience. Unless you SERIOUSLY believe that Hillary thinks that John McCain has PRESIDENTIAL experience, she's clearly referring to POLITICAL experience. You may think she's unfairly portrayed Obama as inexperienced, but the context CLEARLY shows that she was talking about POLITICAL expereince.

[PseudoIntellect]

24. Well then...

Obama apparently only has 2 hours of political experience, according to that HRC plane video and the other interview.

[Yes We Did]

10. Here is something.

At least, she is stealing his words here.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RernchYH-Ec

[Johnny__Motown]

20. Try the second part of this video, the first part is on another subject

she talks about her 8 years of experience "on the other end of Pennsylvania Av."




&t=OEgsToPDskJt5aWR4w5csY3vVdhdDOVU



http://jedreport.vodpod.com/video/956648-disloyal-democrat-hillary-clinton-picks-mccain-over-obama

[Danzo]

51. I'm Underwhelmed

She said that she gained from watching her husband on the job, which is EXACTLY what I said when I refered to VICARIOUS LEARNING.

How exactly is your video a smoking gun?

[SoCalDem]

21. well

[PerfectSage]

23. Hillary deserves credit for being an egotisical dumbshit...

... who was lucky enough to marry Saint Bill.:rofl:

[Johnny__Motown]

25. Come on Danzo... watch the end of this video and respond..... I am waiting

&t=OEgsToPDskJt5aWR4w5csY3vVdhdDOVU

[Yes We Did]

31. He can't do it. He knows he's been had.

[Johnny__Motown]

33. I am thinking about sending him the link in a PM

[Yes We Did]

38. I can't get it to work. Nothing shows up.

[Johnny__Motown]

40. Try Now,,, not all of it copied, sorry should work now

[Yes We Did]

41. you know the title of it? I can look it up

[Johnny__Motown]

44. I took it off someone else's thread, dunno why it won't work here for you

youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=ou4JnWQsxKw&rel=1&eurl=http%3A//&t=OEgsToPDskJt5aWR4w5csY3vVdhdDOVU


but it is long as hell

try putting http and www in front of this


or just cut and paste it... should work

[Yes We Did]

50. awe fuck it. I give up. Either way, not like we don't know the truth.

Not wasting another post in here.

[Johnny__Motown]

52. sorry, but got another link for it

http://jedreport.vodpod.com/video/956648-disloyal-democrat-hillary-clinton-picks-mccain-over-obama

[Johnny__Motown]

49. here it is off jed report

http://jedreport.vodpod.com/video/956648-disloyal-democrat-hillary-clinton-picks-mccain-over-obama

same vid

[Danzo]

56. Assumptions, FTL

I proved you wrong by answering it.

[Eurobabe]

37. How's bout you meet my ignore list? C'YA!

[Danzo]

53. Good riddance.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

42. I'd say you are the one making a strawman argument.

She is running on 35 Years Of Experience(TM). The burden of proof is on her to demonstrate it, not on us to analyze her husband's record and determine which accomplishments she played a role in and which she didn't.

As for your premise, of course she has never claimed credit for all the good things! Why would she? She expects us to assume that if it was good, it was her idea and if it wasn't, that she had nothing to do with it.

[Danzo]

46. There's No Burden Of Proof On Hillary

Hillary clearly stated that that she had 35 years of POLITICAL experience, and it is NOT unreasonable to refer to her First Lady tenure as politcal experience. Especially when I pointed out in another post in this thread that she AFFECTED POLITICAL CHANGE.

[anonymous171]

48. She doesn't say political .

[Danzo]

54. Seriously?

What you do you think she meant, if not POLITICAL experience?

[anonymous171]

55. Clinton counts everything she did since she graduated law school at age 25 as "experience."

This includes working at a law firm and being involved with Walmart. Obama has more legislative (AKA political) experience than she does.

[Mooney]

57. The burden of proof is absolutely on Hillary

Just like when you go on a job interview, it's your responsibility to bring your resume, not challenge the employer to prove you're not qualified.

[Danzo]

62. She Already Put Forth Her "Resume"

If you don't agree with the validity of her 35 years of experience, fine. But it's simply not accurate for you to say that she didn't even OFFER a "resume".

[anonymous171]

63. No, she just said she had "35 years of experience".

Just because she says so doesn't make it valid.

[Mooney]

67. No she didn't

She put forth a shitload of padding to supplement her extremely thin resume, which starts and ends with seven years in the senate. Everything else that she tries to claim as experience qualifying her for the presidency is not applicable. Particularly when it's anecdotal experience during her time as first lady, which cannot be independently verified or qualified. We're just supposed to believe her.

[Danzo]

68. "Not Applicable?"

Not AT ALL applicable? You don't believe in the science behind vicarious learning, then?

[Mooney]

70. No, in fact.

Vicarious learning is by definition not scientific. It's also not quantifiable. But even if it was, we're not talking about a job like operating a conveyor belt, or covering someone's shift waiting tables. It's the presidency, and it's not something you can just kind of "pick up." Bush has been at it for over seven years and he still doesn't know how to do it.

[Danzo]

79. You Failed On TWO Counts

Vicarious learning can be scientifically tested AND quantified:

http://www.cs.memphis.edu/~sdmello/assets/papers/craig-elearn04.pdf

[Mooney]

81. Great

Well when Hillary gets tested, when it's been quantified what she learned about presidenting as First Lady, then we'll have something to talk about, won't we? Until then, you can't do anything but guess and offer wishful thinking.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

58. Huh? I'm supposed to just take her word that she "AFFECTED POLITICAL CHANGE"?

Again, she is to be uncritically given the benefit of the doubt here. She was the First Lady of Arkansas and then of the United States, ergo, she was an instrument of change. No proof needed. Meanwhile, her opponent is subjected to endless scrutiny of his "lack of experience", even though he has been an elected official for several years before she was and has a record of legislation.

[Danzo]

64. Didn't Bother To Look For My Earlier Post, Huh?

Or maybe you did? Either way, I'll fill you in on what I cited earlier.

"Perhaps the most successful component of her accomplishments as First Lady was initiating the Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, a federal effort that provided state support for those children whose parents were unable to provide them with health coverage."

"She also successfully sought to increase the research funding for illnesses such as prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institute of Health."

More accomplishments as first lady:

http://www.firstladies.org/biographies/firstladies.aspx?biography=43

[mrreowwr_kittty]

71. Wonderful!

She also failed to speak up for the thousands of children who were dying in Iraq because of her husband's sanctions and bombings. She did nothing to prevent the slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians in Rwanda. She didn't stop her husband from enacting draconian "welfare reform", that threw thousands of American children into poverty and caused Marion Wright Edelman (her former mentor at the Children's Defense Fund) to denounce the Clintons.

She went on to the U.S. Senate, where she enthusiastically supported Bush's invasion of Iraq, even though the people behind it were the same PNAC putzes who tried to get her husband to do it back in the late '90s. Yet she pretends that she had reason to believe that Iraq had WMDs, despite the fact that her husband was starving and bombing the shit out of that country for years. She voted for the Kyl-Lieberman Amendment, proving that she learned nothing from the folly of giving George W. Bush any kind of license to attack a sovereign nation. Oh, and let's not forget that she saw fit to vote against a ban on cluster bombs, which kill and maim children throughout the world.

You were saying?

[cooolandrew]

60. "35 years of experience" that makes her time as 1st lady,at national and state level experience...

Making Luara bush qulififed for president. Barack ahs long legislative experience at state and national level.

[Danzo]

66. Laura Bush Was A Senator?

No? Is there some OTHER reason that you're CONFLATING Hillary with Laura Bush?

[Cant trust em]

69. Obama supporters imply that Hillary implies

that she took credit for the Bill Clinton administration.

I'd like to hear her talk about the things that she didn't have a part in. It would be a very long list.

[Cant trust em]

72. You're asking a question that Clinton doesn't want answered

She would love to perpetuate the idea that Bill's 8 years in office were a co-presidency. She's never refuted that idea. If she wanted that idea to end she could do it by saying that she didn't really have a lot to do with many of the decisions made.

[akbacchus_BC]

76. No matter what anyone say on here, the Senator Clinton groupie is always ..

gonna say she is right. She is a loser and knows how to bring tears to suit her purpose. What an effing loser? Too bad Obama cannot cry!

[Danzo]

78. Intolerance, FTL

"Clinton groupie?" This isn't the first time that I've seen someone use an ad-hominem attack against someone (in this case, ME) who happened to have their own opinion about Hillary.

[HooptieWagon]

74. Okay, I admit she didn't take credit for Monica

that probably happened on her day off

[Cant trust em]

75. This should answer your question

"Both Clintons are making the case that theirs was a co-presidency'

"Several times, he cited the statistics on the economic gains of the 1990s -- the rise in family income, the decline in poverty and in the number of uninsured, and the increase in students obtaining college aid ("I still know the numbers," he said)."

"For all his talk about the 1990s, though, the former president does not go into great detail about the role his wife played in his administration, instead simply leaving the impression that she was part of the team that brought about the decade's gains."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/21/AR2007122102588.html

[Danzo]

77. I Didn't Ask What BILL Clinton Said

I asked whether HILLARY said that she deserved credit for every one of Bill's accomplishments. Nothing in that artcle said that she did.

[Cant trust em]

80. He's been a part of the campaign.

Unless she distances herself from those remarks or condemns them in some way, it doesn't matter who said them. The surrogates matter.

[rodeodance]

82. NO proof yet--interesing!!

[Armstead]

83. Her "experience" claim is largely based on her husband's presidency

What did she do before or after her husband's term that would prepare her for the presidency more than Obama?

The only claim she has to presidential experience is her husband's term. By extension, that would mean she claims she was an integral part of his presidency.