Truth makes no difference here anymore. Anything goes.

[madfloridian]

Everyone knows Hillary is breaking the rules to win, but no one admits it.

The FL and MI thing is going to destroy our party because the Florida leaders won't admit they were complicit in breaking the rules.

Hillary is running her campaign through the DLC, and ignoring the rules of the DNC. She says her rules are not the same as Dean's.

She is running a campaign outside of the party structure.

I remember how bad 2004 hurt. Dean was a fighter. He got off the floor, started DFA, and a year later became DNC chair. He knew the party was dying inside the beltway, and he wanted to spread the power to the state parties.

The Clinton people despise him for that. Dean was and is a centrist, he governed as one in VT. But he is an activist at heart, he believes in trying to change things.

He had the courage to try to change the stale, putrid atmosphere in DC that was instrumental in his downfall. He has done a pretty good job.

Hillary has run her campaign with other backing and with people who think Dean and his fellow activists are not worthy of attention.

I have spent too much responding to people who are just here to bait and see how long their posts stay up and if they get on the greatest page.

I see that the atmosphere Hillary's Penn and Wolfson have created...the anything goes way....is carrying over to here.

Hillary is breaking the party rules to try to win. We all know it, and we are all afraid to say it. The other day on TV they asked Obama his opinion on those states. He said his campaign was following the rules of the DNC.

[acrosstheuniverse]

1. I said it once I'll say it again...

Their supporters are lemmings who are marching the Democratic Party over a cliff.

[babylonsister]

15. When was the first time you said that, and how does that apply? nt

[DemVet]

55. Who? Obama? Lemmings? I wholeheartedly agree!!!!! n/t

[DogPoundPup]

2. .........

:thumbsup:

[writes3000]

3. She will do anything, ANYTHING to win. That's blatantly obvious. What's sad is -

I remember hearing Dick Morris just rail on her - basically calling her "almost soulless". I was so angry hearing this man, who at one point was close to the Clintons, describe her in such monstrous terms.

I still think he was extreme and slanderous in his overall description of her but some of the ways he described her - I'm seeing evidence of them now. It's sad and I think she could do real damage to the party if she doesn't check herself.

[SwampG8r]

51. reminds me of old yeller

i always cry when they have to put yeller down
but
i always know it was the right thing to do

[madfloridian]

62. LOL

:hi:

[provis99]

4. If Clinton loses the pleged delegate race, but wins because of the superdelegates

the shit will hit the proverbial fan. This is the only scenario I can see where the Democrats lose the Presidency and Congress in November. This crap with the Florida and Michigan delegates will only be the nail in the coffin.

[Danzo]

6. Blame The Media

Maybe if the media weren't such a lapdog to Obama and biased AGAINST Hillary, Hillary wouldn't have to level the playing field.

[Gore1FL]

7. As I recollect

she was inevitable in the media's eyes until she started losing.

[madfloridian]

10. Hillary told the media they were biased and they got their act together

and left her alone and went after Obama.

[Danzo]

18. Progressive Media Still Stinks, Anyway...

...plus a lot of the damage from the ultrabiased media has already been done.

[babylonsister]

20. Educate yourself and google. You are full of poop. nt

[Danzo]

32. sorry bs...

...but I'm entitled to my own opinion of the media. And if you don't like that, it's not my problem.

[dchill]

37. I'm coming up with a formula...

full of poop = no googling.

These flamers are NOT interested in progressive or democratic politics. They are interested in winning - they've picked their horse and bet the whole farm. When their candidate takes a crap on Obama, their candidate takes a crap on all of us. They don't know or care about any of Hillary's dirty laundry - she's already been "vetted" and she's ready to be "commander in chief" - they don't care about fair play, because for them, like for Hillary, fair needs only go in one direction. It's somehow, for them, not a contradiction in terms.

When you're full of poop, there's just no hunger for googling. No hunger for truth, or knowledge - of what lies ahead for Hillary Clinton, Democratic nominee.

[babylonsister]

36. Yes, damn the media that had Clinton as the annointed, until she

wasn't! Oh, woe is Hillary! Then Clinton complains about her lack of attention, and bingo, boingo, she's back at the head of the class!

Fuck Hillary. I hope Obama with his message of change trumps Hil with her message of 'same ole, same ole.'

Eh, and bon soir!

[madfloridian]

61. The media is pushing her like crazy since she lectured them.

.

[AgadorSparticus]

5. Who knew the thuggish mentality of the neocons would seep into the dem party like this.

Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.

:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

[DJ13]

12. Who knew the thuggish mentality of the neocons would seep into the dem party like this

The Clintons have always been corporatists.

"While classical corporatism and its intellectual successor, neo-corporatism (and their critics) emphasize the role of corporate bodies in influencing government decision-making, corporatism used in the context of the study of authoritarian or autocratic states, particularly within East Asian studies, usually refers instead to a process by which the state uses officially-recognized organizations as a tool for restricting public participation in the political process and limiting the power of civil society."


In effect, the reason there are similarities to Hillary's campaign and the neocon campaigns that Bush used is because the Clintons and the Bush's represent the same corporate interests.

Hillary would be a "New!" "Improved!" "Now better tasting!" third term of the Bush administration.

[PurityOfEssence]

28. Um...so is Obama

I'm not making a relativist argument here to support her by saying that he's no better, but don't fool yourself: he's a corporatist. He's not going to rock the powerboat. That's part of why he's been allowed to get this far.

Sit back for a second here: his is an enthusiastic campaign, but it's not a "movement" like many marching in the parade seem to believe. The media never would have given him the many passes it has if he was truly going to shake the timbers of the building. The dark side of this "hope" is passivity, and the dark side of "unity" is going with the flow and not messing with the big boys' hustle.

He'll placate big business and Religion Incorporated as he makes some social strides, but those progressive movements are nothing that she wouldn't do, and in the case of health care, a bit less. They're really much more alike than many seem to admit.

[babylonsister]

23. Your emoticons are admirable but what are you talking about, or are

you just another spewer without an opinion? You SUCK until you explain yourself.

[SoCalDem]

45. I agree.. she has run a very divisive campaign n/t

[bigtree]

8. don't blame the manipulations of your state's officials on Clinton

Your state needs to get IT'S shit together and allow the will of their voters to be represented at the convention, one way or the other. Blaming everyone except the public officials in your own state for penalizing voters there for their own construction is amazing.

[madfloridian]

16. ..........

[bigtree]

24. you left out your freeper governor

[madfloridian]

26. The Democrats did it to themselves.

But no one wants to hear that. It is more fun to pretend they were victims. They were not victims. They were complicit.

[bigtree]

43. the voters are the victims

the politicians need to straighten it out, period.

[Hepburn]

47. Oh, lookie, lookie....

...the Goldwater Girl, head of the College Pubbies and former member of the Walmart Board is looking to be president and some people are stupid enough to support her.

:puke:

[Eurobabe]

9. Hillary is out for HILLARY, the US Dem party be damned

I have never seen a more egocentric inside the beltway power player than Hillary Rodham Clinton and her sleazy advisory team. :puke:

They are rapidly pushing me to the brink of not voting for her is she gets the nomination. I am contemplating sitting this one out. And I have voted in EVERY presidential election for 30 flippin' years.

[madfloridian]

60. Yes.

It's getting pretty bad.

[Quixote1818]

11. K and R

[Raine]

13. You're completely on point

I couldn't agree with you more.

[grantcart]

14. May I offer a contrarian opinion?

I think that there has been a seachange in the Clinton camp with the McCain debacle. Yes the lemmings are still there but a lot of the warriors have put down their arms. Some have switched sides altogether. I think it would be wise for us to consier a change of tone and a great deal of patience as people who have invested a great deal in their candidate are trying to disengage.

Rather than take the absurdities I intend to respond only with humor or gentile satire at the spin and try to avoid direct attacks on the Clinton supporters. I think the Clinton camp is close to imploding. Remember Richardson's pre Tuesday remarks? I think in the next few days we should start to see some big names making statements. The adults are not going to let the children ruin the party. Obama is not simply going to be the candidate he is going to be a meal ticket for a lot of the establishment that goes with an administration. Carter/Gore/Biden/Edwards/Richardson - they are not going to sit by and see a complete destruction of the party's best chance of taking power.

[madfloridian]

17. I hope you are right. The view from here is not so rosy.

:hi:

[casus belli]

22. I agree with you. You make some very cogent arguments. n/t

[dave29]

40. I would like to start seeing statements from superdelegates decrying

tactics that hurt the party, and pledging to not vote for anyone who engages in dirty politics.

They have real power they are not currently using -- and they could use it without making an endorsement.

[madfloridian]

53. I posted one from Harkin last night.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1891

I think others will follow.

[CitizenLeft]

46. yes, I believe this wholeheartedly

"I think in the next few days we should start to see some big names making statements. The adults are not going to let the children ruin the party. Obama is not simply going to be the candidate he is going to be a meal ticket for a lot of the establishment that goes with an administration."

Absolutely. I strongly believe that loyalty to the Clintons, however deep that may or may not be, will be trumped by the need save the party, to win the WH back in November, get a supermajority in both houses, and get the job done for the country. That is the goal of the party, and the party leaders, and SHOULD be the goal of every Democrat. I believe the party will not destroy itself for Hillary Clinton's sake.

If I'm wrong, I'll have to burn my party optomist outfit and become a bitter cynic.

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

57. I just hope it's not too late.

Better be sooner rather than later. Just saw CNN replay her "MCain is ready to be president" moment. The more they play it, the more damage. They need to step in NOW.

[Mooney]

19. Don't let a bunch of self-righteous sockpuppets demoralize you

They're trying the "kitchen sink" approach too. But eventually, they run out of shit to throw.

Take an example from Dr. Dean, and don't back down from these assholes. They need to be stood up to. And when you stand up to them, they cave. Every fucking time. You'll see. Just don't let them chase you off.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

21. i respect dean tons. i donated monthly for a couple years just to back him

only recently took it off my card.

it is so clear what happened and is happening, i have to believe those that want it hillarys way are very aware exactly the absurdity they demand and the problems it is and will cause and dont care.

further i will say

i think this is just another strong arm play. they did it by moving the date knowing the rules figuring dean would back down. they had an election trying to make him back down. and this is all for show for exactly that same thing.

like a bunch of bullies trying to take over the playground.

but... there are always more of us than them

[madfloridian]

25. A quote from Simon Rosenberg, a co-founder of the DLC with the Clintons..

and a long time friend and campaign person for them. His words say it better than I can.

Having worked on the New Hampshire primary and in the War Room in 1992 for the Clintons, I was present at the creation of the famous "rapid response" campaign style and fierce fighting spirit of the Clinton era. In the very first meeting of the famous War Room James Carville warned us "that if you don't like to eat sh-- everyday you shouldn't be in politics." So I understand as well as anyone that this is a tough game, not for the faint of heart.

But there is a line in politics where tough and determined becomes craven and narcissistic, where advocacy becomes spin, and where integrity and principle is lost. I am concerned that this Florida gambit by the Clinton campaign is once again putting two of my political heroes too close - or perhaps over - that line. So that even if they win this incredible battle with Barack Obama they will end up doing so in a way that will make it hard for them to bring the Party back together, and to lead the nation to a new and better day.

The battle begins

[doni_georgia]

49. This kind of says it all

What the Clinton's are doing in this campaign so goes beyond anything I have seen. I am frankly so sick of their slash and burn tactics that I am getting sick of this primary - and I am a political junkie that never sickens of politics. I have never been a fan of the DLC - thought it weakened the Democratic party from the outset - blurred the lines between republicans and democrats. I just don't get how some here cannot see what the Clinton's are doing - the damage that is being done to our party. I don't get it.

[joshcryer]

29. You cannot prove ONE IOTA of what you wrote here.

I challenge you to PROVE that she (her CAMPAIGN) is BREAKING RULES. This is Orwellian to the fucking core. Never seen anything like it.

[spoony]

31. I'm sure you have, just not from this side of the aisle.

And if these cultists don't get it by now that defending the suppression of voters by strong-arm enforcement of minor rule infractions, then blaming the voters and candidates they don't like isn't exactly Democratic, they never will. But I'm sure the OP will post seven or eight hundred more threads of editorials to "prove" her point.

[joshcryer]

34. It's unbelievably Orwellian. Lies Are Truth. Innuendo Is Fact!

That's why I said I never saw anything like it before. All of these people just nodding their head in agreement, like they're at some Church somewhere, and the pastor is telling them about how gays should be strung up or something.

Really, it's just that Orwellian. She and her campaign have never at any point broken any rules or attempted to do so.

[madfloridian]

58. Yes. she will.

.

[Melinda]

39. What the hell does HRC mean then when she stated she wouldn't participate...

participate when she signed the DNC pledge as shown:

THEREFORE, I, HILLARY DIANE RODHAM CLINTON, Democratic Candidate for President, pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules a presidential election primary or caucus before Feb. 5, 2008, except for the states of Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina, as "campaigning" is defined by rules and regulations of the DNC.

And why the hell, when NPR asked in 10/07, why she was keeping her name on Michigans ballot, did HRC reply that Michigans election was not going to count for anything if she intended to seat the delegates?:

"Well, you know, people in Michigan are flat on their backs. They have the highest unemployment rate in America. They are now grappling finally with what they are going to do with the auto industry. 1 in 10 jobs in America is tied to the auto industry which is -- the American auto industry, which as we know is centered in Michigan. You know, it's clear this election they're having isn't going to count for anything."

Listen for yourself here

Explain that one for us all, would you? CAN YOU?

FACT: HRC is a liar, madfloridian is correct, and you are wrong.

[madfloridian]

52. MI "it's clear this election they're having isn't going to count for anything."

Thanks, I had looked for that.

:hi:

[cooolandrew]

30. You've got it bang on Dean's integrity will save this situation.

[Kurovski]

33. I can't remember what program I saw it on, but Dean said:

"The rules will be followed".

[Laelth]

35. I am not afraid to say it, and you're absolutely right.

BTW, thanks for fighting the good fight on the Florida primary issue. Over and over I see you having to take the time to correct the misstatements and distortions of the deluded and the ignorant.

I, for one, am appreciative.

:patriot:

-Laelth

[lligrd]

38. I Must Be No One

Because I certainly have admitted all of that.

[Kitty Herder]

41. K&R

[AtomicKitten]

42. Sometimes it's best to just hold their coat while they implode.

K&R :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tlg-sVjJxW8

[CitizenLeft]

48. ROTFL!

I love you, AtomicKitten! :rofl:

[madfloridian]

56. .....

Funny.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

44. Thank You For Proving Your Own Point. Very Effective!

[11 Bravo]

50. "We all know it, and we are all afraid to say it."

Riiiight. Obama supporters have been downright terrified of making any unflattering references to Senator "monster", "traitor", "liar", "hysterical wifey", "PMS queen", "bitch" Clinton.

(Is it physically painful when your blinders are on that tight?)

[DemVet]

54. Who? Obama? Lemmings? I wholeheartedly agree!!!!! n/t

[madfloridian]

59. Governor Granholm...we will have "noisy protest" if we don't get our way.

"What say you, Howard Dean?

“‘All they have to do is come before us with rules that fit into what they agreed to a year and a half ago, and then they'll be seated,’ the DNC chairman said, during a round of interviews Thursday on network and cable TV news programs. The two state parties will have to find the funds to pay for new contests without help from the national party, Dean said. ‘We can't afford to do that. That's not our problem. We need our money to win the presidential race,’ he said. The DNC offered to pay for an alternative contest in Florida last summer but was turned down, officials at the party say.”

Per the New York Times, "Granholm, a Clinton supporter, said Thursday that there would be a noisy protest at the Democratic convention if the Michigan delegation was not seated. But she left open the possibility of a new Democratic primary, as long as the taxpayers or the state party do not have to foot the bill. ‘If there is a redo, it has to be inclusive,’ she said. ‘Whatever it is would have to be a primary-like election.’”"

Translation: Granholm wants whatever Dean does not want.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/03/07/741338.aspx