Who are you to question Clark's opinion of Obama?

[BootinUp]

He has more than proven his committment to the country and in the past 4 years to this party. He has the right, if not the duty to state his opinion on who is most fit to lead this country at this time.

And stop with the smears agains this man who said a long time ago, that the IWR should not be used as a litmus test. This is because he realizes the complexity of that vote that so many former Clark supporters apparently close their eyes to. They prefer to just lash out at the IWR yes voters instead of considering there was a strategy there to avert war by UN inspections.

Stop with the smears against him for supporting Hillary Clinton who at least had the cajones to vote on the castrated Kyle Lieberman bill, castrated to remove any language suggesting Senate support for military action, and in a moment where this country had a choice about whether to express dissatisafaction with Irans efforts at negotiations or just express disgust at Bush and show we are divided too much to deal with foreign powers for the next few years.

Stop with the smears against this man for supporting the Clintons. He has earned the right to choose and to state his reasons. I'll take his reasons over a bunch of internet political addicts that believe any anti-Clinton tripe they get their hands on. Thats who you are.

[gaspee]

1. But... But... But...

He *criticized* OBAMA!

[newfie4]

8. Oh Holy St. Obama!!!

[lewis_in_fw]

31. Supreme Allied Commander Gen Clark: Please Proceed to Confession Booth and say 20 Hail Marys *NT*

[Maddy McCall]

2. K/R

[SoonerPride]

3. I thought he was angling to take the VP slot when Obama gets the nom

He'll say yes, I'm exactly the kind of foregin policy advisor you need on the ticket.

[movonne]

7. Well in that case he should be a little nicer to Obama..

[SoonerPride]

12. Well, Hillarity keeps saying she wants to be on his tcket....

but she's not going to get to since she's been so, um, monstrous

[CyberPieHole]

98. But what does Barack Hussein Obama have to say about it?

[Emit]

Do you have a link to support that assertion?

[movonne]

4. What's the problem???

[TwilightGardener]

5. I'll fucking question anyone I want. He's a sellout for power.

[JoFerret]

23. Dealing with power

...is what politicians do. Including Obama. Give them a break.

[TwilightGardener]

28. No, Clark violated his own foreign-policy positions and military common sense

to support Hillary and trash Obama. Sorry, he's just as unprincipled now as Hillary.

[Eurobabe]

32. He's lost alot of integrity with this move.

[JoFerret]

61. sorry...but I find that a bit infantile

...just me.

[Exilednight]

6. I'm not beating up on Clark, but I do use the IWR as a litmus test and nothing Clark says will...

change that.

I can respect the man, but that doesn't give him the default position of being correct.

[Bucky]

22. I think Clark is wrong and I thought his comments wrong. But I have reiterated my respect for him.

Criticizing is not the same as "beating up on" Clark. The OP seems to be a bit intolerant, or at least thin-skinned.

[Exilednight]

36. I agree, and my RIGHT "to question Clark's opinion" is given to me at the ballot box.....

It's like saying I don't have a right to criticize shrub because he's the POTUS.

[cali]

9. I agree.. Unlike the hill supporters who trash every dem who supports

Obama, I have no problem whatsoever with Clark's right to his own opinion. Your plaintive call for decency would have more heft to it if you called for a cessation of the trasing of Kerry, Kennedy, Dean, Leahy, etc.

[lewis_in_fw]

39. Check out this thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4959434

[Seabiscuit]

10. Kicking! Rec. nt

:kick:

[AX10]

11. As you said:

"Stop with the smears against this man for supporting the Clintons. He has earned the right to choose and to state his reasons. I'll take his reasons over a bunch of internet political addicts that believe any anti-Clinton tripe they get their hands on. Thats who you are."

I am not interested in the netroots extremist viewpoint. I respect Mr. Clark. I respect his right to voice his argument in favor of Hillary Clinton.

[Bad Thoughts]

13. I love Wes and worked my ass off for him in 2004

But he's been saying some dumb things the last month. I admire that his is an ardent supporter, not just of Clinton but of the party itself. He put himself far out for Kerry and for candidates throughout the country. The things he has said, though, seem forced and frankly at odds with some of his close colleagues.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. My heart bleeds for the General.

He stated his opinion and he's not immune to taking heat for it. :nopity:

[thunder rising]

15. Fuck Clark ... to repeat, he was a worm in '04 and remains so today. Hillary probably offered him

something.

[Dinger]

16. He IS A Hero And A National Treasure, Period

I am so thankful for all he has done for this country. I still wish he'd run.

[MoonRiver]

17. 16 year old Obamaton trolls know better than Supreme Allied Commander Europe, General Clark.

Didn't you get the memo? :shrug:

[AX10]

19. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[lewis_in_fw]

21. That may be why they are so angry. Because they still can't legally vote *NT*

[gaspee]

29. Ah, to be young

And so convinced I had the answers to everything. What a nice, simple thing life was back then.

[Dinger]

33. Dayton Peace Accords, Rhodes Scholar, Led A War Where No American Soldier Died,

One of the most decorated soldiers since Eisenhower, saved 1.5 million ethnic Albanians, worked his ass off to get Dems in in 2006, led his platoon to safety after being shot 4 times by an AK-47, after his dad died he was raised by his mom, who worked as a secretary, and then they moved to live with his grandparents, who made their living at a lumber mill, who taught economics at the college level, who worked in the WH in the OMB, who has appeal of independent/bi-partisan voters, who was the first candidate endorsed in 2004 by a Native American magazine (Native Times), happily married for 40 years, grandpa, dad, etc.

[AX10]

38. Yes sir!

[TwilightGardener]

41. Um...so? That doesn't make him infallible, or mean that he's not infected

with the bug for political power. I swear, as a military wife, it's scary to see all these Hillary supporters jacking off to the "Supreme Allied Commander" title--MUST NOT QUESTION THE GENERAL!! He's a smart and accomplished guy who also happens to be a loyalist, or a craven power-seeker--probably both.

[PresidentObama]

44. Wow. And Barack isn't a craven power seeker?

[TwilightGardener]

45. To some extent--but unless he violated many of his past positions

for political advantage, he's still OK in my book.

[Critters2]

96. Do a little research. He's no saint. nt

[Dinger]

46. No, It Doesn't Make Him Infallible, But He Does Deserve Respect

That was my point. He's a good man, and I am proud of him.

:patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

[TwilightGardener]

49. I lose respect for sellouts, sorry. Same with McCain. I am not in awe of military leaders.

[Dinger]

53. That's Fine, But It Would Be A Good Idea To Find One To Balance Our Ticket Against mccan't

That's what I'm thinkin'.

[MoonRiver]

43. What a great man!

I was so hoping we could coax him to run again. But regardless, I'm so glad he's still speaking out and supporting Clinton.

[annie1]

95. lol

[PresidentObama]

18. Clark was one of the original three I wanted to support (Kerry, Gore and Clark) and I respect him.

And he has the right to say whatever he feels.

I support Senator Clinton, but I totally disagree with his statement about Senator Obama and whether he could be President of the United States.

I support Clinton because I think she's the better candidate. Nothing more, nothing less.

And I'll proudly support either candidate as the Democratic nominee.

...Go Hillary ;)

Clinton/Clark anybody?

[stray cat]

20. vice president Clark if Hilliary wins?

I supported Clark in 2004 and value his opinion - but he has always been part of the Clinton camp.

[Strelnikov_]

24. Oh, OK. I didn't know we had entered the 'No Dissent' phase of the Clintonia era

I will comply as directed.

Please note that I have not as of yet expressed any 'written' opinion here on Clark's statement, but I have had thoughts that he is wrong. So, yes, I admit that I have possibly committed thought-crime, although inadvertent.

[Schema Thing]

25. I'm one of his biggest fans, who happened to notice that his endorsement of Hillary involves

something more than the reasons he gave.

Because if it was about the reasons he gave at the time of the endorsement, he'd have endorsed Biden.


I also specifically remember Clark (defending his own readiness to be president. Yep, he had to) saying something to the effect that NO ONE is truly "experienced" when it comes to the job of POTUS; that's why judgment and character are of utmost importance.

I remember he told me that I needed to read and understand Lakoff, and that all Dem office holders needed to do likewise.

In short, he told me to support Obama.

[BlueJac]

26. Clark thought...

He picked the right horse in this race. He was wrong! He was looking for a job to boot.

[locker13]

27. nobody is smearing him

people disagree with him and they are expressing their disagreement with his statement and the logic that he used in that statement

[Eurobabe]

30. Sorry Jim,, but Wes lost my support when he endorsed Hillary.

That's just how it is. I admire him for his service to our country, that will not change, I just don't like the political company he keeps these days.

[SOS]

34. "there was a strategy there to avert war by UN inspections"

Here is a link to US PUBLIC LAW 107–243—OCT. 16, 2002:
"Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq 2002"

http://www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf

Can you please highlight the "strategy to avert war by UN inspections"?

[SoCalDem]

35. The general is sitting in the front row of the Goodie Train

Sec of def is his prize...it's waiting at the depot.. Toot Toot all aboard.. mind the gap & all that stuff

[TheWraith]

37. You really need a fact check.

For starters, I haven't seen Clark actually say anything personally about Obama--and I've been looking. I suspect endorsing Clinton says more about his personal friendship with the Clintons than it does about his opinion of Obama.

And by the way, the Kyl-Lieberman bill Clinton voted for was NOT "castrated." In fact, she voted AGAINST removing the controversial language from it.

[awaysidetraveler]

69. Always good to hear the voice of reason.

Who is trashing Clark, anyway?

[Beregond2]

40. Right?

This is a democracy. We have the right and the duty to question everyone about everything. You might as well say "What gives you the right to question George Bush?"

[Bryan]

42. Gen. Clark is entitled to his opinion

I try to take a broader view of it; I tend to think that there are many distinguished officers who share the General's view that Obama doesn't have the goods, and Obama's simply going to have to win them over with his judgement, his intellect, and his willingness to thoughtfully accept the advice of his miltary advisors.

[Dinger]

48. Nice Post Bryan. Thank You (nt)

[TwilightGardener]

51. Where is your evidence that officers don't think Obama "has the goods"?

[Bryan]

56. I didn't mean it as a criticism

It's largely my surmise, considering that Obama wasn't in the military and doesn't have a relatively long history of legislative experience in military matters, and it's occurred to me that officers might even be inclined to favor Sen. Clinton more (serving as she does on the Armed Services Committee).

Indeed, I may be mistaken; he may be held in general high esteem for his work on the Veterans' Affairs Committee and be able to work easily with military advisors from day one.

[FrenchieCat]

47. "dissent is patriotic"--Wes Clark

"We live in a liberal democracy. That's what we created in this country. It's in our constitution! We should be very clear on this... this country was founded on the principles of the Enlightenment. It was the idea that people could talk, have reasonable dialogue and discuss the issues. It wasn't founded on the idea that someone would get struck by a divine inspiration and know everything, right from wrong. People who founded this country had religion, they had strong beliefs, but they believed in reason, and dialogue, and civil discourse. We can't lose that in this country. We've got to get it back." - Gen. Wesley K. Clark, Bill Maher Show, September 4 2003

video of this statement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrTG_amtrhA

A New American Patriotism: A New Call to Service :patriot:

General Wesley K. Clark
New York, NY
October 14, 2003

Today, America faces serious challenges. Our country has endured the deadliest external attack in its history. We feel our security threatened here at home for the first time since the Cuban Missile Crisis. America has lost over three million jobs for the first time since Herbert Hoover.

Meeting these challenges of our time demands three things: new leadership, new ideas, and a new spirit of patriotism.
<>
In the face of new and growing challenges, we need to call on A New American Patriotism - from our leaders and our citizens. A New American Patriotism calls that makes the right choices for all of our people. That unites our country and works with the world community. That calls all Americans to make the commitments and sacrifices to meet these historic challenges.

As I travel across this country, I see a new spirit of patriotism in the American people. I see it in the Americans who speak their minds, demand more of their leaders, and serve their country.

This patriotism recognizes that democracy demands discussion, disagreement, and dissent. There is a nothing more American - nothing more patriotic -- than speaking out, questioning authority, and holding your leaders accountable.

This patriotism is born of a love of country, and renewed through service - service in the armed forces and service in our communities; volunteer service and paid service; full-time service and part-time service.

This New American Patriotism recognizes that it's not enough to say you're an American; you have to live it - with action, deed and commitment.

It recognizes that we as Americans owe our strength to certain values and principles - liberty, equality, and the freedom to debate - and it calls on our willingness to sacrifice for those principles.
http://www.clark04.com/speeches/005/

---------------------
My thread excercising my right to dissent, a concept articulated and fully endorsed by Gen. Wes Clark.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4962668

[theHandpuppet]

50. THANK YOU!!

:applause:

[BeyondGeography]

52. Ex-Clarkie here: Clark has become an embarassing suck-up

Wes is a brilliant and often courageous man, but there's something over-the-top about his support for the Clintons.

He really is their little puppy dog.

[PetraPooh]

54. A patriotic american, who are you to tell me I shouldn't question his opinion?

[goclark]

55. I not only supported him I was elected a delegate

for him ~ I have no problem with him supporting Clinton.

Note that my name is goclark. That is because my name is Clark and at the time I was supporting Clark.

What I can't support are the dirty tricks of his candidate and I am wondering now why/how the CLARK that I knew could not advise her to do such dirty tricks!

He is a very smart man but evidently his opinion only goes so far with her ~ she is her own woman. Power mad.

That means she is not a listener and well as a decider, being a listener is a true test of a great leader.

Seems she is like her buddy Bush, a "Decider"

[LittleClarkie]

57. I can question anyone's opinion. But I will not smear

There is a difference.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

58. I'm Not Sure Which Is Crazier:

Their pathetically misguided rhetoric, or your putting forth a well written OP designed to speak to them, as if they're reasonable people or something... :)

[bobthedrummer]

59. From The Buying of the President 2004: General Wesley K. Clark

This is a very informative page from the archives of The Center For Public Integrity if anyone is interested.

http://www.publicintegrity.org/bop2004/candidate.aspx?cid=12

Since General Clark is not running for office but is closely associated with the Democratic Leadership Council/DLC he deserves questioning by all American citizens in the context of his political affiliation.

[karynnj]

60. OK - but who is Clark to question Kerry's and Kennedy's opinion of Obama

I agree no one should attack Clark because of his opinion, but they can disagree with the opinion.

[ProSense]

70. They don't count. n/t

[BootinUp]

82. I don't see where he has insinuated they did that for dishonest reasons

as Clarks detractors here have done. In fact I don't remember Clark saying anything about Kerry or Kennedy in this primary.

I have no problem if people disagree with Clarks assessment.

[karynnj]

90. I was not saying that CLARK said anything on Kerry or Kennedy

My point was that it is legit to question Clark's opinion of Obama, just as you can question the MA Senators' opinions - questioning their opinion is legit. It is not as the OP suggested questioning who they are.

It's the difference between attacking them as people, which is wrong - as opposed to questioning specific actions.

[mmonk]

62. No smear from me.

However Hillary Clinton has no experience as CIC. Bill Clinton had no experience as CIC. The rest is politics.

[rodeodance]

63. most Obamafolk already threw him under-along with Joe Wilson etc.

[BlackVelvet04]

64. K&R

[zabet]

65. K and R

:bounce:

[libbygurl]

66. K. nt

[awaysidetraveler]

67. A strategy to avert war by UN inspectors? No, the inspectors had already reported to the UN.

They reported that there were no weapons. That's not a strategy. The real reason they voted the IWR in was
entirely political, and it was not the right thing to do. The IWR wasn't such a bad vote though, given the fact
that voting against the resolution would not have stopped the war.

So that doesn't bother me so much about Hillary. That is, I'm not against Hillary for voting the war into effect.

I'm against Hillary, because what she plans to do in Iraq is wrong for America: she plans to reduce our forces, leave bases,
and keep combat troops there until as late as 2012. We will continue to be viewed as occupiers in that scenario,
and we will have fewer troops to meet our objectives in Iraq during that period of time. In short, it's just a bad plan.

Why doesn't Gen. Clark understand this?

I don't know. Still, I respect his right to his own opinion, though I do not share that opinion.

[susankh4]

68. It's amazing, isn't it?

Noone may question St. Obama. Ever. For any reason.

They will trash, not only the Clintons but... Wes Clark? Geraldine Ferraro? Anyone who doesn't suit their goals, no matter how respected a party member.

[OzarkDem]

71. If you want neverending war, support Obama

If you want real professionals who know how to get us out, listen to Clark.

Trust him over Obama any day.

[pointsoflight]

72. Someone with a brain?

Wesley Clark is just being ridiculous now. I mean, c'mon, do you think he truly, seriously takes fault with the idea that the person who takes office in January of 2009 should re-evaluate their Iraq plan based on the information they have then and based on the additional intelligence they have then? Of course not. He would advocate exactly the same thing. And what's more, the person he supports, Hillary Clinton, has taken EXACTLY this same position.

[krkaufman]

73. As someone else has pointed-out on this forum, Wes changes his tune ...

... as the political winds change.

When he's fighting on behalf of the Clintons against staunch anti-war candidate Howard Dean, it's "~no IWR litmus test~" (link); when Howards's out of the race and Wes is running against two guys who voted for the AUMF/Iraq resolution, it's "they voted to give George W. Bush a blank check to go to war" (link); and now he's back in support of Sen. Clinton, a candidate who voted identically to Kerry and Edwards on the AUMF/Iraq (and who, like them, also failed to read the full, 92-page Iraq NIE prior to the vote), and it's OK that Hillary gave Bush a blank check to go to war.

Certainly, no one warrants add hominy attacks like "loser" and "your memory sucks" -- and he should be defended from such -- but Wes' military service, however honorable, doesn't immunize him from criticism, any more than he is immune from acting like every other calculating politician out there.

[BootinUp]

75. You go on and worship Obama for awhile longer

and accept his lie that he didn't mean it when he "lied" in 2004 saying "I don't know how I would have voted" (on the IWR).

As I said before, criticism of Edwards in your CNN story was warranted, why? Because Edwards made statements supporting actual invasion and connecting Iraq to the war on terror. Clark has always been anti-invasion same as Hillary and Kerry and Obama are. The question of whether Senators deserve severe criticism over the IWR vote is another matter and is complex exactly because it was not a "vote for war" as your simple little mind understands it.

[krkaufman]

83. Not a "vote for war"... but "a blank check to go to war"

The issue at hand are Wes Clark's statements regarding the readiness of Obama to lead the country, and Clark's support for Clinton. And the worship here appears to be for Wes Clark.

Clark's words can't be taken seriously because it's been shown that he appears to say whatever is politically expedient at the time. Wes was supportive of AUMF voters, before he was critical of them, before he was again supportive of one.

I still respect Wes, overall, but must take his praise of Hillary and denigration of Obama with a pack of salt, given he's currently in political thrall of Sen. Clinton and overwrought by the election.

[BootinUp]

87. Lets put some facts on the table

1. The transcripts from the phone conference or interview don't even show Wes saying what that blog posted. He questioned whether the Obama team had a well formulated plan on what to do in Iraq and he backed it up with some sound reasoning.

2. Wes has always been critical of the IWR, he has also suggested it was a difficult vote and has not condemned Democrats who voted yes or suggested it was a reason they should not be considered for the nomination to President.

3. Until you disprove one or two you can take your whole argument and file it under worthless.

[krkaufman]

89. #2 has been shown repeatedly

You can spin it how you like; nothing I can do about that.

Wes is being a politician. Simple as that. Sadly, he is criticizing Obama's campaign for a statement very much like he, himself, would have made. This doesn't make Wes a bad person, just a politician.

[BootinUp]

91. No

what you showed is Wes criticizing Kerry and Edwards for their vote. Is that not allowed? He did go on to support Kerry as you know. There are damn few people who actually cast a no vote running for President.

[krkaufman]

97. Right. At one moment Wes was critizing Kerry, and suggesting that he, himself, ..

... was the better candidate because of his consistency on being against the war, based on speeches, and then later, when the political need changed, he again returned to the more nuanced, forgiving stance on the AUMF vote.

Which is the point. Wes' criticism of Obama needn't be taken at face value. It is merely an expression of his current political leanings. I'm sure he'll be a staunch supporter of Obama should Obama win the nomination.

[Az_lefty]

74. it's not about his committment to the country or patriotism...

he's just fucking wrong on this and he of all people should know it.

[Gore1FL]

76. A U.S citizen with freedom of speech?

I can question his opinion. He can question Obama.

Kind of a neat system.

[donheld]

77. Just fuck that

Gen. Clark is not above question. He is as much human as any other person. I as a tax-paying American have as much right to question him as anyone else. You have no right to expect any of us to accept everything he has to say regardless of what it is. He can be a shill just like you or I could be.

[Connie_Corleone]

78. I can question anyone I want to. Clark isn't God.

I was one of the people who supported the Draft Clark movement in 2003. I don't care if he supports Hillary. But to say that another Democratic candidate isn't ready to be commander-in-chief is beyond the pale.

And anyone who says I can't question Clark on that can go to hell.

[BootinUp]

79. To all the "free speech" posts

you don't get my meaning at all. This post was about allowing Clark to express his opinion without smearing his motives and saying he contradicts himself for politics. That is NOT true. He has assessed Obamas experience vs Hillary's and has earned the right to voice that opinion without being called a liar. I am not saying you cannot disagree with his opinion.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

80. He has the right - he's just wrong.

[whopis01]

81. A citizen and a voter. n/t

[Hawkeye-X]

84. I question the fact that Wes Clark has been a longtime supporter of the Schools of Americas

And I still continue to do so today. That school has not been closed, and under Clinton (either one) it will not be closed.

http://www.soaw.org

That's one of my MAJOR turnoffs about Clark. I applaud his services as the Supreme Allied Commander of Europe, but that's all he is, a simple General with an opinion. And I don't have to buy his opinion if I don't want to!

[HeraldSquare212]

85. I don't understand people's fasciation with Clark - he's fully a creature of the Clinton's making,

in politics, at least, and probably militarily, as well, in terms of putting him in charge in Bosnia. I don't regard anything he says as his own reasoned judgment, but rather just another statement from the Clinton campaign.

[JerseygirlCT]

101. I never have understood it, personally. nt

[GeorgeGist]

86. Wes believes in war too much to be taken seriously!

[LWolf]

88. I am the Lone Wolf in the flock, of course.

I'll question anyone's opinion; I don't give a fuck who they are. Who is Wes Clark, that I should somehow hold his opinion holier than my own?

Since you asked.

In reality, I haven't criticized Clark for anything he's said this time around. His opinions aren't relevant to me. If you are going to ask "Who Are You to question Wes Clarks' opinion," though, I'm going to tell you exactly that.

[lojasmo]

92. The depleted uranium made him say it.

Seriously...does anybody outside of DU even know who Wes Clark is?

Anybody witless enough to be supporting Clinton at this hour deserves dismissal.

[Tatiana]

93. I'm an American citizen. And a supporter of Wes Clark, BTW.

I have enormous respect for the man and I completely understand why he supports the Clintons. I simply disagree with him and there are several other ways other than electing another Clinton to accomplish his goals.

[dcindian]

94. I am an american who has a responsibility to question

What gives you or Clark or anyone the right to take that away?

[stillcool]

99. I'm Stillcool47

and I don't question that he has an opinion. I question the validity of any opinion. I question rationalization that is woven with false-hoods to push an agenda via an opinion.

[JerseygirlCT]

100. Anyone has a perfect right to dispute his opinion. Since when does

anyone get a free ride on that count? Seriously. That's just ludicrous.

If what you mean is not to argue against his position with personal smears, then you're right. It's not right, and more than that, it's not effective.

But I absolutely don't think his opinions or anyone elses ought to be held sacred.