Newbie here

[youknowmenotdlc]

I found this site some time ago and used it as an invaluable resource for keeping up with progressive news and discussion.

This particular forum is especially interesting as it seems to tie the tails of the Hillary and Obama supporters together and then throws them over a metaphorical clothesline leading to the inevitable fracas.

As a regular schmoe, run of the mill progressive, I'm torn over this election. Hillary has been a fave of mine for some time and whenever she is attacked I feel an urge to rise to her defense, just like back in the 90s.

But.

THe tone that she has taken in this campaign has made me wonder if she hasn't picked up some really bad habits from those who mercillessly perscuted the Clintons during their time in the oval office. Being a fighter is a good quality, but doing so at the expense of a fellow Democrat, especially one who has the upside of a Barack Obama is disturbing to say the least.

The turning point for me was hearing her tout John "100 year war" Mcain's experience to be CIC while implying that Obama did not meet the standard to be CIC. This was a molotov cocktail of poor taste mixed with a complete lack of any substantive proof to back it up. The only thing this terrible statement did was insure that John Mcain and his Rove directed 527s would splash it on everything from mailers to commercials to billboards.

This type of dirty pool is unnaceptable for me to tolerate as it goes against the very basis of why I am progressive/liberal/democrat. Being honest and just is more important than just winning, smearing a fellow democrat in a fashion that is simultaneously not supported in fact AND helpful to the very people who have nearly ruined this country is unacceptable.

I believe that by engaging in this sort of scorched earth campaigning Hillary has ceded the very moral high ground that most progressives value.

I hope this whole campaign works out and in the end a Democrat is sitting in the WH, but if it goes awry and we basically get a third Bush term I believe the blame can and will be laid at Hillary's feet.

And that blame will be deserved.

[Adelante]

1. Welcome to DU

Nicely written post. Thank you. :hi:

[hueyshort]

39. Nothing here but Obama Thugs smearing Clinton ad nauseum

If your IQ is under 90, you'll find the dumb threads and dittoheads great reading.

[youknowmenotdlc]

47. You may want to review your post

You start off by making an overly broad assertion without backing it up, then you follow it up insulting your fellow Democrats by calling them dumb and dittoheads.

If this is how you view your fellow democrats it's no surprise why you would overlook Hillary's propping up of Mcain's experience as superior to Obama's.

[KAZ]

52. That's all they do here. Been that way for weeks. Welcome..

.. to DU! Your post was excellent, and sums up my feelings.

[tbyg52]

69. Just wanted to say that I enjoyed this reply.

:hi:

[joeprogressive]

49. Funny, it is the less educated voting for HRC.

Face it, we are smarter.

[Straight Shooter]

67. Kerry attracted the "better educated" voters, too.

That turned out real well, didn't it. Common sense trumps books smarts, every time.

[Adelante]

50. It's really great to have you here, hueyshort,

raising the level of discussion. :eyes:

[grace0418]

60. The OP was thoughtful and well-reasoned. If you had disagreed in a thoughtful

and well-reasoned manner, you might have a point. However, you say nothing of value, instead choosing to insult and belittle. If you want people to believe Clinton supporters are blameless and Obama supporters are "thugs", your post actually proved exactly the opposite.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

79. I take it you base your description...

On your years of experience here at DU?

:rofl:

Clown.

[Quixote1818]

2. K & R

[Miss Chybil]

3. Ah, a new voice with which to bash Hillary.

How refreshing. I was getting bored reading all the other posts doing the same thing. I'm glad you jumped in the fray, if only to spice things up.

Welcome to DU.

[youknowmenotdlc]

4. It would only be a bash

if it were not based in fact.

Tell me, as a progressive, how does aiding and abetting John Mcain's presidential run by saying he is more qualified to be CIC fit into your set of values?

Does Hillary's health plan somehow trump this sin?

What is it about her that allows you to forgive this affront to a fellow Democrat?

I really want to understand.

[Cha]

16. Good questions but they

have no answers..the only words they know are, "bash, hilary haters, cultists, sexist, hilary's a victim, misogynist..ect, ect"

[Miss Chybil]

18. First off, I already voted for Hillary

so you are really not going to change my mind about anything. Secondly, I think she mispoke when she made that comment about McCain. I really don't believe it was a "sin," anymore than I believe anything Obama has done, or not done, in this campaign is a "sin." Thirdly, I will be happy with either candidate for president. I like them both and I will vote for a Democrat in the general election because of my values. It's really not that hard to understand.

[youknowmenotdlc]

19. I understand and support everything you said in your post except

the part where you say Hillary mispoke.

I would have gladly accepted this after the first time she said it, but she has now said it twice.

Knowing how smart she is I find it hard to believe that she could make the same error twice.

I too will vote for whoever is the candidate, anything is better then Mcain, but we cannot accept this type of behavior from within our own party.

[Lena inRI]

80. Hear, hear and welcome but one correction for ya. . .

. . .Hillary said it yet a THIRD time.

Can you bear to see her say it again? As an answer to a question why she said it! No acknowledgment that she went over the line to diss Obama and be disloyal to the Democratic fellow-candidate!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/07/olbermann-rips-into-clint_n_90392.html

I wasn't going to support her anyway but her desperate tactics have sealed my decision.

OBAMA ALL THE WAY!

[charlie]

25. Once could be misspeaking

Three times is deliberate. Hillary really wants you to know that McCain is more worthy for the White House than Obama.

[youknowmenotdlc]

30. mistakes happen

for some more than others

[JimGinPA]

5. Nice Post

:thumbsup:

[babylonsister]

6. Welcome to DU, youknowmenotdlc!

Glad you jumped in! :hi:

[jazzjunkysue]

7. Hell of a post for #13. Applause, and welcome.

Very well written post. Please, keep it up.

Very interesting to read what civilians (not like us who have been here for all 8 years of B*'s miserable reign of terra) think about Hillary's nasty tactics.

I think it's true that people expect a woman to be nicer and less confrontational, and so I've been wondering how her pit-bull antics are going over.

Most of us here who don't like her don't like her war votes. But the bed side manner matters more to most voters, I think.

Thanks! Welcome! Sorry you came while things are so volatile.

[youknowmenotdlc]

11. It's actually perfectly understandable

Competition brings out passion, a passion for candidates and their slightly different positions.

The one thing everyone should remember is that we all want the same thing, Bush gone-a dem in the WH- a working majority in congress.

But stepping over each other to get this will only lead to our ruin.

[AZBlue]

8. Welcome to DU!

:hi:
Great post!!

[Blue Fire]

9. Welcome to DU!

And bash away! :toast:

[stop the bleeding]

10. uh oh now you did it

Introducing logical thoughts and questions is strictly forbidden in GDP

Great post and welcome to DU!:beer:

[Barack_America]

12. A hearty "welcome" and rec for you!

:hi:

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[youknowmenotdlc]

I ask you this

how can you come to the conclusion that I blame Hillary "for everything"?

I would like to engage you in a rational conversation and explain myself while respectfully hearing what you have to say as well.

How about it?

[emilyg]

14. Nice try - not buying.

[Cha]

15. Welcome to DU, youknowmenotdlc..

like the username:) Nicely stated..your post.

"I believe that by engaging in this sort of scorched earth campaigning Hillary has ceded the very moral high ground that most progressives value."

And she does it with such relish..you know she's really getting into "the fun part". Started after she placed 3rd in Iowa when she was low and had nothing to lose. Yeah, hilary will be go down in history as the one who tried to screw up the Dems chance for regaining the high ground but she and the goperverts lost.

[youknowmenotdlc]

17. Ok

which old rap song am I basing my name on?

This is a quiz

[youknowmenotdlc]

20. It;'s from Naughty by Nature: OPP

You down with OPP? Yeah you know me.

Get it?

I thought it was hellaclever but I'm kind of geeky that way.

[Cha]

21. No, I flunk da quiz..

I like your name cause you're not dlc..get it?

[youknowmenotdlc]

23. DLC bad

Naughty by Nature good

[Cha]

24. Now we're gettin'

somewhere! :D

[City Lights]

22. Great post, youknowmenotdlc.

:hi: Welcome to DU! :hi:

[JoFerret]

26. Wooden spoon brigade again

Always with that faux reasonable tone. Which is of course better than a Bama-Bash or Hillary-hate.

Don't worry - this internecine family feud is just a practice run for McCain.

[youknowmenotdlc]

27. Mcain does have a lot of holes in his game

combine that with a poor stage presence, subpar oratory skills, short arms, and a drug addled trophy wife and we have the makings of an epic ass whompin.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[youknowmenotdlc]

29. Poor taste on my part

although I must say you saw my poor taste and raised me with the GOPer remark.

Not very nice, maybe your momma didn't breast feed you and thats why you feel the need to act so angrily.

[JoFerret]

31. "My friends"

The milk of human kindness is the lifeblood of the GOP my friends.

[youknowmenotdlc]

36. I forgive you for calling me a GOPer

and now I'll place you on ignore

[hisownpetard]

72. Great summation, great OP. Welcome to DU!

:yourock:

[Perry Logan]

32. Hillary's comment about McCain's experience has been a deal-breaker for lots of Democrats.

I was disgusted when Obama praised Reagan. I'm fed up when any Democrat praises any Republican. Don't our politicians know there's a civil war going on?

[youknowmenotdlc]

35. I don't rember Obama praising Reagan

I do remember Obama pointing out that Reagan had success with a campaign that didn't seek out a fight with democrats.

That is a far cry from saying that your parties opponent in the general election was more qualified than your fellow democrat.

[npincus]

33. great post.

Any Dem w/any objectivity who has been paying close attention has got to be seriously disillusioned w/her campaign. This does not include most memebrs of my family, BTW. I started off largely undecided between the 2, but got progressively more turned off which opened my mind to the alternative.

Welcome!

[stillrockin]

34. Welcome. Well written post!

[Hepburn]

37. K&R...and welcome to the DU!

Great post...hope to see more of you! :hi:

[Guava Jelly]

38. Welcome to DU

Obama wasn't my first choice but out of the two remaining He has run a far better campaign.
People are going to be angry at you no matter what candidate you support.
Stick around and have fun.

[BootinUp]

40. If Hillary can make that case an win votes, what will McCain be able to do?

This is a competition to pick our strongest candidate and a candidate all Dems can be proud of. This is no time to whine about the fact that Hillary picked on Baracks greatest weakness.

[youknowmenotdlc]

41. So we reject progressive ideals and common decency

and adopt the Right wing's gameplan?

Uh-uh count me out, I've already had 7 years of fear mongering from a Puke I don't want one of our own to attain the office of President by using Rove's handbook.

[BootinUp]

42. This is a common problem in our party, we are afraid to talk about National Security. nt

[youknowmenotdlc]

43. How does fear mongering and propping up the Republican candidate

equate to "discussing national security"?

The Republicans have framed the issue of national security to basically "shoot first, ask questions never" and Hillary basically endorsed that very flawed position by saying Mcain had the qualifications for CIC over her fellow Democrat.

Embracing neoconservative/establishment views about national security is not what progressives are about.

At least not this one.

[BootinUp]

44. Who will McCain make the most hay against? Please answer the question. nt

[youknowmenotdlc]

45. No need to say please

I think Mcain will have a hard time with either candidate, but Obama will be able to clearly differentiate himself from Bush/Mcain's failed foreign policy choices in Iraq. Hillary will not be able to because of her vote authorizing Bush to do what he pleased.

So, whereas Obama can point to judgment instead of the experience that failed the American people I think Obama in a national cmapaign gives us a better chance.

One other point, if your argument is based on who gives Mcain more mojo i don't think there is any doubt that Hillary would act as a unifying force for Republicans where Obama will pull apart the fragile Republican coalition.

[BootinUp]

46. Hillary's position on Iraq

was never invasion, it was inspections forced by a threat of war. McCain will not be able to attack her on that. McCain will pummel Obama as not wanting to hold Iraq to the UN resolutions.

[youknowmenotdlc]

48. I believe that your opinion is genuinely held

but I also believe that it deviates from the general consensus among Democrats.

I don't want to rehash the whole IWR thing here but suffice it to say Hillary shopwed poor judgment in giving this guy

carte blanche to play soldier.

[BootinUp]

51. CIC already have carte blanche to launch military actions

and briefly on the IWR the Dems would have been slaughtered, and a new congress in January would have supported what the previous one would not. There was no way for the Dems to get out of the not forcing inspections argument, none.

[youknowmenotdlc]

53. And yet 23 Senate Dems did just that without

adverse consequences at the polls.

Lets face it, you know it, I know it, Hillary knew it Hussein was not a legitamete threat. She knew quite well that Hussein did not posses the military capability to even attack his neighbors much less us. She knew he was not a viable threat and that is what made her vote all the more unforgivable in that it was a vote of political expediency and nothing more.

So we are left with two explanations of why she voted as she did.

a. She was fooled by the War chimp. (which I don't believe for a moment)

b. She weighed her options and instead of leading, she chose to take the safe path, the politically expedient path and thus despite her half baked excuses of why she voted they way she did she bears partial responsibility for the Iraq war.

This is unescapable and unforgivable.

[BootinUp]

54. Totally wrong friend.

As I said in another thread, it does not matter whether you believed or not that Bush wanted to take us to war, it matters what alternative you offered to stop him. A vote against the IWR could not in my view, as I believe he still would have had enough support from the public to proceed to do something. And an election in 2 weeks would have given him such a mandate. The Levin amendment was a punt, and was worthless.

So the UN inpsectors got back in and Sadaam was on his knees, they began to unravel the fucked up intelligence, this was a viable strategy. No one knew that Bush would kick them out.

Why are non of those 23 brilliant bastards running for President?

[youknowmenotdlc]

56. So we are in agreement

Hillary made a vote of political expediency that helped give Bush cover in starting an unnecessary war.

Spin it however you want, Hillary voted YES on a resolution that we all knew full well Bush was going to use to start a war.

23 Senate Dems voted no, they voted their conscience and they said damn the political consequences.

Hillary weighed it and came to the conclusion that the politically smart move was to vote YES.

It showed poor judgment.

[BootinUp]

57. Geebus H....

Spin????????

2004 MTP, OBAMA: I do not know how I would have voted.


When will you realize that there was no way out for the Dems as Obama knows deep down in his soul. Kerry, Hillary, Obama, Clark, they all were against invasion. Yet all of them have admitted the IWR vote was a quandary for Dems and a very tough decsision. The party is making a mistake to turn that vote into some litmus test.

You have been unveiled as another Obama hope and change dreamer now.

[youknowmenotdlc]

59. round and round we go

despite your efforts to innoculate Hillary for her vote, he vote remains a very real and ugly indictment on her judgment.

Spin it how you will.

But don't worry, you could always vote Mcain in the GE since he displayed similar judgment.

[BootinUp]

62. at least Obama is intelligent,

but he is a dishonest politician for making a charge against her on an issue that he admits he didn't know how he would have voted, and all his one issue supporters are such a fucking bore.

[youknowmenotdlc]

65. Actually Obama stated his opposition to the war clearly

on multiple occasions.

Heck, even Hillary has admitted this much.

Look dude, if you are cool with our Iraq policy and Hillary's role in it, thats fine, it's a free country but at least take a side. Quit saying that her vote was irrelevant and that she didn't know what she was getting into.

[BootinUp]

66. She was also opposed to war, read the floor speech she made.

and I love your total ignoring of Obama's waffling on the IWR vote. I guess you would have to ignore it to make these posts and not go schizo.

[BootinUp]

55. "inescapable and unforgivable" you have tried to make like you

had a hard choice between the two, who do you think you are fooling?

[youknowmenotdlc]

58. Hillary cannot change her vote thus the "unescapable" part

The fact that she voted thusly is the "unforgivable" part.

Sorry I wasn't more clear.

[think4yourself]

76. Bingo!

Concise and true! This is the truth. Nobody is bashing just "Hillary". It's the whole package, the big picture and yes, the baggage that causes such negativity towards her.

[crispini]

61. here's a tip since you're new

Read up on how to use the ignore function and then use it on everyone from either side who acts like an asshat. Makes this place much nicer. :)

[VolcanoJen]

63. Welcome to DU!

Excellent Newbie post. :thumbsup:

[K Gardner]

64. Welcome.. glad to see you jumped right in ! :-)

[immoderate]

68. You may be new here but you're obviously...

not new to political thought. Welcome to DU! :)

I've never been a fan of either Clinton, though I acknowledge that Bill had political talents that served him (and sometimes us) well in the White House. I think that IWR showed that Hillary lacks the leadership that we need now. She was either a fan of a needless war, or a dupe of the Bush policy, or just taking a safe political stance. None of these are recommendations for the presidency.

--IMM

[youknowmenotdlc]

70. I was actually a fan of both Bill and Hillary and still believe

that they are preferable to the typical Republican but in Obama we really have a chance to "change the game".

Consider that instead of relying on lobbyists and Special interest groups to drive policy via their virtual control of the campaign process, Obama has created a coalition of citizens over a million strong who are engaged enough that they have sent in their hard earned cash.

This says more to me than all of the fragile policy promises that candidates make to get elected. Obama will truly be a free agent and thus able to buck a system that has become corrupt.

Further more the coalition he has created is wide and deep enough to be able to brin others like him and deliver them into House and Senate seats and maybe even more importantly State and local election seats.

Obama is an extension of Dean's 50 state strategy and thus rises above the established Washington insider system.

[Lena inRI]

81. Yesiree, your word choice is excellent. . .

. . .and your insight sharp. Are you a retired Democratic politician? hahahah.. . .don't have to say.


"Obama will truly be a free agent". . .

"Obama is an extension of Dean's 50 state strategy"

Great lines! I might add them as signature lines. . .you should (Go to your profile under option).

And Obama's coattail coalition's already delivering. . .Bill Foster won Hastert's seat in Congress!


:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

[Jokinomx]

71. I agree with everything.....

As an Edward's supporter, I have been having a hard time deciding who to support Obama or Hillary. I like both of them and could be happy with either as Prez. Now I am leaning very strong towards Obama just because of Hillary's negative attacks.

I certainly think there are millions of people that are starting to feel the same way.

Welcome to the D.U. I know you will enjoy the time spent here.

:toast:

[youknowmenotdlc]

73. Thanks

nm

[bvar22]

74. Welcome.

:hi:

K&R (Kick & Recommend)!

[L0oniX]

75. DU Recepción

[NoBushSpokenHere]

77. Welcome to DU and I agree ...the blame will be on Hillary nt

[frog92969]

78. K&R&Welcome

:hi: