Howard Dean painted himself in the corner with his arbitrary rule....

[Maddy McCall]

The easiest solution is to seat Florida's and Michigan's delegates.

But Dean is more worried about people respecting his authority and his silly rule than disenfranchising 2.5 million voters and jeopardizing the Democratic vote in the general election in Florida and Michigan.

The first big presidential election since he became chair, and look at the mess he's made.


So, Howard Dean, get over your ego and seat the delegates.

[saltpoint]

1. I admire Howard Dean from 04 but like him quite a bit better now.

He was exactly right on MI and FL and Bill and Karen are going to take a hit for their recalcitrance.

You go, Howard.

[thunder rising]

5. My candidate is Barack, but I'll side with Dean period. He is the reason for this primary season!!!

[saltpoint]

6. Yep. He's a good man, and a tough, brainy Democrat.

We sure could have used him running the party years ago as well.

[XemaSab]

28. I was really bummed he wasn't our nominee in '04

but in retrospect I'm wondering if it wasn't a blessing in disguise for our party.

[saltpoint]

31. Agree -- he has done so much demonstrable good. And people tend to

Forget that he improved morale in a LOT of states' county Dem orgs as well.

and brought many new Dems to the voter rolls.

He's a damned good man.

[XemaSab]

42. He won us the congress in 06

and I credit him for a lot of the turnout this year in the primaries.

As a presidential candidate, I'll admit he had some rough edges, but as party chair he's free to be as much of a pit bull as he wants to be, and I think that's great.

[saltpoint]

45. Again, agreed whole-heartedly -- true, he's a tough customer, but

by god, he's OUR tough customer.

go, Howard.

[DrDan]

43. so you support adopting a rule that would strip votes from fellow Democrats?

that is quite admirable on your part . . .

[saltpoint]

48. Hi, doctor.

I support Dean.

FL and MI acted in defiance of his advance notice and they get what they pay for.

[DrDan]

55. so you think it is fair to have a rule that would disenfrancise voters?

That is a freeper attitude. I though equality in voting was one of our foundations?

And . . . FL and MI did not act in defiance. The party leaders did. And the voters got screwed.

anyway, you apparently care little about that.

[saltpoint]

I'm really sorry doc but I'm not buying your hinge premise.

I know you want me to real bad.

But I ain't gonna.

I support Howard Dean.

[tekisui]

2. Do you think the voters in MI who weren't able to vote for their choice

because they weren't on the ballot would be happy with seating, as is?

And the 55 uncommitted in MI, they would be free to choose whomever they like, right?

I'm just wondering, this has become a big mess, that every possible solution has some degree of unfairness.

[DesertFlower]

11. i agree. nt

[Nitrogenica]

3. The rules shouldn't be changed to fit an agenda.

That's what Republicans do.

[goclark]

27. That's the part that bothers me

She signed on to it not caring about the voters in FL and MI

Now that the votes aren't going her way,she is pushing this ~
Dean will change his mind, watch.

They will never give up trying to cheat.

[DrDan]

46. and we should not have rules that lead to voter disenfrnachisement

Democrats have more ethics than that.

well . . . . most of them do

[Slagathor]

66. It's not a real election--it's only a primary

some states don't even have them. You can't equate a primary or a caucus with an election. The two are not comparable.

[DrDan]

69. no - that is true . . . . . they are different

but . . . they have transitioned to have a look of a real election . . . and hence having everyone's vote appear important

except to Howard Dean, the DNC, and the state party leaders

[rockymountaindem]

4. 1) We're turning on Dean now?

The man who has brought us victories in 2006 and special elections, governorships, etc? Not to mention the 50-state strategy that's making us proud to be Democrats in *every* state, not just the "relevant" ones...

2) Seat the delegates from races wherein there was only one candidate on the ballot? Yeah... that sounds like real democracy :sarcasm: On the other hand, one might say that if Clinton had respected the rules like the other candidates and removed her name from the ballot as well, we wouldn't be in this position. Considering that everyone else managed to play by the rules without complaining says something, and it's not to Clinton's credit.

[saltpoint]

9. The OP enjoys that sort of thing.

Dean rocks.

[Armstead]

14. The Clinton DLC has always hated Dean

He dared to ruin as a populist, and he is foolish enough to believe that there might be a significant number of people throughout the country who could be attracted to the Democratic Party to actually win if the Democrats botehred to do a little work.

[MADem]

24. You can disagree with someone without "turning on" them. In the REAL world, anyway.

How about seating only the delegates where all candidates were on the ballot (FL), and re-doing the other election?

Or re-doing both?

Disenfranchising MILLIONS to punish a few hundred politicians is just fucked up. And it's the OPPOSITE of democracy.

[Hissyspit]

29. Silly, isn't it?

[DrDan]

50. yes -

the man who stripped millions of their voice.

does that sound like the type democracy you support?

[MaineDem]

7. IT WASN'T HIS RULE

He isn't the DNC, he's only the Chair. The Committee on Primary Reform, or whatever it was called, made a proposal which was accepted and written into the Call to the Convention and Rules for Delegate Selection which were proposed to the DNC and accepted by the ENTIRE DNC. The Chair had nothing to do with it.

The vote to sanction FL and MI was done by the Rules & Bylaws Committee - again, not the Chair.

I wish people would research before they comment.

[John Q. Citizen]

8. You and Hill are in it to spin it. Whan are you going to get real?

[MADem]

10. I agree. It IS "schoolmarmy." He could help the situation by offering to help

raise money for "re-dos" if that is what he's set on, but his attitude is "I'm right, I told you so, and now, in New England Yankee fashion (ironic since he is originally from NY) you must be PUNISHED for your crimes."

Hell, why not put the Democrats in the FL legislature who voted for the stupid date-change in the stocks for an hour in the town square? Don't make the voters suffer for the crimes of fewer than a hundred...

[MaineDem]

13. He offered to help FL monetarily right up front to run another contest

The FL Party said "no thanks."

[MADem]

36. Last I heard, he said "You gotta pay for it. You gotta fix it." And I have a cite.

I like Howard, he was my first choice last time round, but I do think he is handling this like a bit of a martinet.

His rather vague "petition the nominating committee" remark might signal a bit of movement, but who knows, really.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aalvgQnLFACk&refer=home

Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue (Update1)

By Kristin Jensen

March 9 (Bloomberg) -- Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean said it's up to Florida and Michigan to come up with a way to get their presidential primary delegates counted in a party dispute that might determine the nominee.

Attention is turning increasingly to the two states as the nomination race drags on between Democrats Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. Because Michigan and Florida violated party rules by moving up their primaries, they lost the right to send delegates to the nominating convention, a stance that some Democrats figured would be reversed once there was a clear nominee.

.....

[MaineDem]

41. And my statement said he offered this "up front"

Not on March 9 but early in the process.

So if his offer was rejected why should he continue to make the offer?

But don't think that this isn't being negotiated outside of the media's earshot.

[fadedrose]

12. Pay no attention, Dr. Dean

Hillary's people don't believe in ethics and rules from the sound of the OP.

We've been winning in states where we never did before because you chanced branching out.

[denem]

15. Maddy - Dean's silly rule

Hill_OP 1 - HRC dissing MS isn't bad politics cause it 'accurate'
Hill_OP 2 - but HRC will will MS anyway
Hill_OP 3 - Obama hasn't won a closed primary
Hill_OP 4 - HRC did not jump the shark with McCain 'Endorsement'

And HRC is somehow ahead in dels/votes/kharma
Who do you think you're fooling?

[grantcart]

16. Howard Dean did not vote for the rule. It was a rules committee vote and Ickes was on the committee

and he voted for it. No Obama representatives were on the committee. This is the rule that the Clinton camp wanted.

[JimGinPA]

33. HRC Fanatics Here Can't Be Swayed By Actual Facts

:shrug:

[BumRushDaShow]

17. Read this....

Interesting stuff.

http://www.democrats.org/page/s/nominating

[ProSense]

51. That doesn't count! n/t

[msongs]

18. the states agreed to it - and now they must be held accountable for their own choices nt

[Lucinda]

19. I disagree. I don't think anyone in the party expected to be where we are now

He's walking a very fine line IMO, and doing pretty well under the circumstances.
They can't seat the delegates as they are unless Obama agrees to takes the full Uncommitted number from MI. It's just not fair.

And there are lot's of people to share the blame on this one.

[XemaSab]

40. Even as an Obama supporter if he got all the uncommitted delegates from MI

that wouldn't be fair or right.

What if people voted "uncommitted" because they were supporting Edwards wholeheartedly, but after Edwards dropped out they would have happily switched to Hillary over Obama? :shrug:

Or the more conventional assumption, that non-Hillary supporters stayed home, or people who were leaning Hillary punched her name on the ballot, or people were confused and voted for her anyway, or who knows what.

We'll never know what all those uncommitted voters were thinking, and I think it's a perversion of democracy to make any assumptions about it, even if those assumptions favor our chosen candidates.

[Lucinda]

58. They are currently tied in MI revote polling (rassmussen)

So I think the case could be made for Obama to take all the uncommitted. And the difference in delegates for 55% vs 40% uncommitted is probbaly insignificant.

Hillary could also just accept a 50/50 split of MI for the same reason.

I think they will each look at how they think the'd gain if we were to redo the vote and come to terms pretty quickly. Debbie Dingle said today (Brit Hume interview) that all parties were at the table discussing options for MI.

[RBInMaine]

20. You couldn't be any more incorrect. Here is why:

First, the appropriate DNC subcommittee made the rules, NOT Howard Dean, and MI and FL CHOSE to violate the rules agreed upon by all parties well before the elections actually began.
Next, you are missing something in your head if you think it is fundamentally fair for Hillary to be awarded delegates from rule-breaking
states that where there were NO campaigns and where, in MI, HERS was the ONLY name on the ballot. (Hm, isn't that interesting.) Last I saw this was the U.S. and not Russia, or maybe you prefer their system??

Now, this WILL be FAIRLY resolved either by allotting EQUAL numbers of MI and FL delegates to both candidates, OR have a FAIR re-vote using a FAIR process at a FAIR time so that both candidates can FAIRLY campaign and compete for the votes. Sen. Obama has said that as long as there is a FAIR re-vote process he will do it. As to funding it, there is PLENTY of private $ out there to finance it. The DNC should not spend their resources on states that broke the rules, nor should the taxpayers of those states.

So cool your jets. It WILL be resolved in a FAIR way agreeable to all parties.

[rocktivity]

21. Arbitary or not, the FL/MI Dem leaders knew there would be consequences

if they disobeyed the rules. THEY'RE the ones who disenfranchised the voters and created this mess. And they can clean it up by re-voting in accordance with the rules they originally agreed to. Failing that, Dean should either split the delegates down the middle, or seat the delegates but not the superdelegates.

You can rest assured that Dean sees this situation for what it is--nothing more than a DLC coup attempt against the DNC faction of the party.

:headbang:
rocknation

[butterfly77]

22. Why not call Dean out when he is wrong...

everyone else is getting called on their bull, this is why we have the problems we have now, because someone is a Dem we should follow no questions asked...

[mrreowwr_kittty]

23. Applying previously set DNC rule to everyone = Arbitrary. Hoo-kay.

:eyes:

[AtomicKitten]

25. Howard Dean is in charge and is doing a great job as DNC chair.

And he's not going to seat faux delegates that were obtained through a de-certified election where all candidates weren't on the ballot, where the candidates didn't campaign (Hillary the ONLY one benefiting from name recognition), and where many, many Democrats stayed home knowing the election didn't count.

All the candidates signed on to this plan 18 months ago.

Otherwise, a do-over is a breeding ground for fraud and further chaos in Florida in particular since Limbaugh has already announced their plans to continue to vote for Hillary (8-9% in Ohio and Texas) so she can do their dirty work and continue to bloody up Barack.

Plus there is mounting evidence of election fraud across the nation, ALL of not coincidentally benefiting Hillary at Barack's expense.

That's why the GOP is being so accommodating. They want to screw with the election and they want Democrats to cough up some $20 million in the process.

If SS Clinton and her minions truly just want the delegates seated, they they can be split down to the middle fairly. But the Clintons aren't interested in fairness and are more than pleased to accept GOP assistance in splitting the Democratic Party irreparably

The Clintons are nonstop campaigning for this - just like you are doing here - and Democrats need to be very, very careful about a Democrat like Hillary Clinton who is schmoozing with the GOP to defeat her opponent.

[dkf]

26. Gov Dean is trying to lend sanity to the primary season.

If FL and MI succeed, next primary season will be done a year and a half before the General or something ridiculous like that.

All you Hillary lovers/rule breakers think that is a good idea?

[rodeodance]

30. They were chatting on NPR about what a weak chair he has become.

[patrice]

35. *N*ational re*P*ublican *R*adio.

How long have you been listening? They've moved way to the Right, especially regarding the Invasion and Occupation of Iraq.

[rodeodance]

53. get a grip!!

[patrice]

62. Yeah, that is reaching a bit.

But not entirely un-true.

[patrice]

32. And the next time there's a problem, manufactured by (Florida) Repuglicans or not,

we'll just re-write the rules again. And then again the time after that and the time after that . . . .

Have you ever been "in charge" of anything that is collective in its nature? anything really big that is . . . ?

What you are proposing would destroy the Democratic party.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

37. Let's just have the damn 2012 primaries now while we're at it.

These people shrieking about FL and MI being "disenfranchised" better be careful what they wish for. Letting them get away with it will send a signal to every other state that they can do the same thing.

[patrice]

54. Absolutely! There's a huge difference between how things "should" be and how they are.

My students and administrators used to say things to the effect that:

On the principle that development is the highest goal of our collective relationships, you should allow everyone to do their own thing and then just adapt to what each person does.

In theory, letting anarchy happen would **eventually** result in everyone deciding (for functional reasons) to individually do the right thing for the whole/group, BUT meanwhile, the net effect of each person/state doing what they want is DESTRUCTION of the collective identity, so every time anyone learns to adapt individual desires to support the group better, the group cannot support that adaptation, because it's not a group anymore.

There are no absolutes and that statement is so true that it isn't even an absolute = SOMEONE MUST take responsibility for the whole/group and draw a line (or two or three . . . ) in what is going on. It's called being mature.

[IndianaGreen]

34. DNC voted on this--It is not Dean's rule

Why does the Monster McClinton feel she is always above the rules?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

38. McCauliffe made it clear in no uncertain terms that he wouldn't tolerate moving up primaries

When he was Chair. Where was all the outrage?

[IndianaGreen]

44. And the Queen of Lies' henchman Harold Ickes voted to punish FL and MI

and now he is arguing the opposite side. There are no core values when it comes to the Clintons, only what is political expedient at the time.

[ProSense]

52. McAwful set this process in motion, but

that doesn't count!

McAwful, Penn, Ickes, Wolfson, a bunch of assholes.

[Window]

39. Seating the Fl & MI delegates is neither the easiest, nor the fairest solution.

He's the head of the DNC. Rules are rules and they knew the rules and consequences going in. It is not fair to blame this on him. Put the blame where it squarely lies, with those knowing what the rules were and still deciding to do it their way. Period.

[bluerum]

47. No ego. Just making sure everyone plays by the rules. He did not screw the

voters. Their state leadership did.

If you look at Fla., you have to wonder why the democratic party let a repuglican governor make important decisions for the state. IMO, they demonstrated an unpardonable level of bad judgment.

[OzarkDem]

49. Agree - MI and FL votes will count in the GE

Dems ignore them at HUGE risk to the party in electoral votes.

MI and FL need to be seated and move on.

[rodeodance]

56. well said.

[Life Long Dem]

57. ahhhh the states disenfranchised themselves.

[Gore1FL]

59. It was the Rules committee, not Dean

Harold Ickes of the Clinton campaign, as a member of the rules committee, voted to have MI and FL stripped of delegates.

Don't blame Dean, blame Harold Ickes and the rest of the rules committee.

[Quixote1818]

60. Give it up. Even with Florida and MI, Hillary still loses. nt

[Donna Zen]

61. The rules were sent to every state committee

The state rules committee reviewed them, the state executive committee reviewed them, full committee debated and reviewed them, and finally the rules were posted on the state website for 2 months for the public to weigh in.

Michigan and Florida had every opportunity to take their stands.

Now somehow it is Dr. Dean's fault? Now you are talking about a problem of his ego?

My state had a problem with the one rule and chose to vote for them because we wanted to be seated at the convention. We did send a letter back with our DNC reps. to make a recommendation for the future.

[w13rd0]

63. I support Howard Dean...

...rulebreakers shouldn't be rewarded, especially when they knowingly broke the rules, just because the former "annointed one" thinks she'll benefit from it.

Yay Howard Dean!

Boo another desperate HRC ploy...

[Marnieworld]

64. It doesn't bother you that Obama wasn't even on the ballot in MI?

That doesn't seem a tad unfair to you?

[Slagathor]

65. No he didn't

and the rule was hardly arbitrary.

[Hippo_Tron]

67. Maddy lets play devil's advocate

You are Chariman Dean. You start to outline a primary calendar all the way back in 2005. You discuss it with the DNC and come to an agreement than Iowa and New Hampshire go first and then other states can apply for early status to even things out.

Not a single state or candidate complains about this process.

2007 rolls around and all of a sudden Michigan and Florida decide they want to screw the DNC and hold their primaries early. In Florida it may have had something to do with the GOP (I'll let you debate that with Madfloridian) but in Michigan the Democrats were clearly in charge and they clearly made that decision.

The only ground that Florida and Michigan have to stand on for breaking the rules is that they don't think it's fair that Iowa and New Hampshire get to go first every time. That's a perfectly legitimate argument which is why they should've complained in 2005. Screwing the party at the 11th hour cannot be rewarded or the party has no credibility.

If it were up to me I would've docked the delegates 50% like the GOP did. I want to know what you would have done.

[Upfront]

68. Wrong

Dean, unlike most, means what he says.