Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Why popular vote totals are irrelevant for the election ...

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Altair Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:12 PM
Original message
Why popular vote totals are irrelevant for the election ...
If we are going to use the popular vote as the scorecard, then that means that the numerous states which have chosen to use caucuses as their party voting method will inevitably be disenfranchised. Caucuses inevitably have far fewer participants than primaries, but many states find it necessary to use them, in part because they are much less expensive or because the states are sparesely populated, as with Wyoming and Idaho.

But let's first look at New Hampshire and Maine- two very similar states geographically and population-wise.

New Hampshire population: appx. 1,300,000
Maine population: appx. 1,300,000

As it happens, Maine chose to have a caucus, while New Hampshire chose to have a primary. Each is a perfectly legitimate choice under the Democratic party's rules. No one even suggested to Maine that it was somehow a second-class state as a result of this decision. To the contrary, New Hampshire and Maine have a very similar number of delegates to offer- 22 in the case of New Hampshire and 24 in the case of Maine.

Now, let's compare the vote count in the New Hampshire primary with that in the Maine caucus on the Real Clear Politics popular vote tracker:

New Hampshire Obama 104,815 Clinton 112,404
Maine n/a

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

So on this particular scorecard, you've got New Hampshire weighing in at around 215,000 voters, while Maine shows nothing even though it had its caucus on February 10. Why? Because Maine didn't track the number of caucus participants - they just recorded the number of state convention delegates selected.

http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P08/ME-D.phtml#0210

Obama won Maine 62% to 38%, which means that he had overwhelming support in the election method which was chosen by that state. And he was awarded delegates according. Now Hillary wants to step in and say "wait a minute- the popular vote is the real scorecard here." Try telling that to Maine because, if popular vote is the scorecard, then Maine doesn't count at all in determining our party's nominee. The same applies for the state of Washington- thanks for playing anyway, guys!

Even the states that do record the number of caucus participants are grossly underrepresented under the popular vote method. Look at Hawaii, for example, which has almost the same population as Maine and New Hampshire. Hawaii will be glad to see that, unlike Maine and Washington, it at least counts for something on Real Clear Politics' popular vote chart linked above:

Hawaii caucus: Obama 28,347 Clinton 8,835

So Hawaii, in a year with record turnout, counts to the tune of around 37,000 voters using the popular vote method. Recall that New Hampshire, with almost the same population as Hawaii, counted to the tune of around 215,000 voters. That means that, under Hillary's way of determining the leader of the free world, one Hawaiian counts about 1/6 as much as one New Hampshire resident. Tough break, Hawaii - guess we forgot to tell you that part when you selected what was supposedly one perfectly valid election method.

As we all know, Obama has racked up many of his victories in caucus states. That being the case, can any Hillary supporter honestly defend using popular vote as the scoring method for our party's nomination? I can hear them protesting: "But caucuses are undemocratic: Hillary supporters have to work or they don't know how to caucus." If caucuses are undemocratic, then they should be done away with by the party. But those weren't the rules going into this election, and caucuses have been used all throughout this nation's history.

I would add that the notion that caucuses inevitably inflate Obama's totals isn't necessarily true. Look at the Utah primary:

Obama 70,373 56.61%
Clinton 48,719 39.19%

http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P08/UT-D.phtml#0205

Those are very similar numbers to what we saw in the Wyoming caucus yesterday, when Hillary bothered to compete.

I don't deny that Obama has benefitted from caucuses, but this benefit comes from entirely legitimate factors, most notably the enthusiasm of his supporters. Enthusiastic supporters are important to a party's nominee because these supporters don't just vote- they get out and organize and canvass and send in donations. Those are the kinds of supporters the Democratic party needs in November.

But regardless, Obama's advantage among caucuses doesn't need to be defended, because it's an advantage he has regarding an election method that is an established part of the rules. The bottom line is that the delegate assignment process is the means by which the Democratic party has chosen to make caucus and primary states on equal footing for the purpose of determining our nominee. If you take away the delegate count as the scorecard, then you basically assign 1/4 of the nation to irrelevance in determining our nominee.

So I hope the press will pick up on this fact when Hillary starts trying to spin her closeness in the popular vote total- it's very important that the public understand this by the time the superdelegates make a decision.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. the caucus vote disenfranchises the voters
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 05:13 PM by Horse with no Name
which is WHY obama has been very successful in them. They have it down to a fucking art form.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. LOL
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
krawhitham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. HRC loved them when they helped Bill
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. When I caucused, I fought the evil forces of disenfranchisement
and somehow managed to prevail!!! Here's what I did: I, well... I showed up. And was counted. And then I went home. Man, I will wear those battle scars proudly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Lucky for you
The Hillary people didn't lock you out of the process or threaten you or steal the packets as the obama people did.
I'm glad YOU got to vote...however...it is a shame that not everyone HAD the opportunity to have their voice heard.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. LOL!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Geez, y'all are some sorry-ass whiners.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. yeah being locked out of the process can cause someone to whine
I honestly wished it were YOU so you could empathize with some of the tactics that are being employed out there.
Amazing at what shows up in the oddest of places:
http://www.oprah.com/community/thread/32593?start=0&tstart=0
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. The funny thing is that many states have had caucuses for years and years
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 05:20 PM by ocelot
and I've never heard anyone complain about "disenfranchisement" until now. All other candidates in all the other elections I've voted in (and all the caucuses I've attended since 1972) accepted this method, which some states voluntarily chose, as a legitimate means of choosing delegates. There are some valid arguments against them, of course, but Hillary is the first candidate I remember in my 36 years as a voter who's ever whined so bitterly about them. None of the other losers in past years were ever sour-grapey enough to attack the process.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Funny thing happened on the way to the caucus
The caucus has NEVER been relevant in Texas because Texas has never been a relevant force in the election. Try again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
31. then maybe you haven't been paying attention
At one time, and not that long ago, the states ALL had caucuses to choose our nominee.

The reason we've been moving away from caucuses and toward primaries over the years is exactly because voters complained that the process disenfranchised them.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Don't the 'States' choose how..
to run their elections...I mean, the people in those states? Should a candidate intervene and insist a state run it's election the way the candidate deems appropriate?
http://www.drake.edu/journalism/CyberCaucus2000/reform.html

Iowa

Iowa flirted with the possibility of holding primary elections in 1913, but returned to the caucus system after 25 percent of registered voters attended its first and only primary election held April 10, 1916. The state remained important throughout the remainder of the century, but took the spotlight after the reform of 1968. Since then, the Iowa caucuses have held one of the most important roles in the presidential elections.

The Reform

By Becki White

Before 1972, presidential nominees were selected primarily by party regulars and the elite. Then Sen. Robert F. Kennedy was shot, the Vietnam war escalated and protests and riots that questioned every governmental process spread across America.

In August 1968, 10,000 demonstrators gathered at the Democratic Party's national convention in Chicago. Led by the Youth International Party and the Students for a Democratic Society, they protested the war, racism and the political process that awarded then Vice President Hubert H. Humphrey the presidential nomination on the Democratic ticket.

Humphrey, who did not go to one primary election, relied on party regulars to take votes away from his main opponent Sen. Eugene McCarthy of Minnesota. McCarthy had won several primary elections throughout the nation. Protesters argued the nomination process at that time restricted public involvement.

After Chicago Mayor Richard Daley ordered city police to "shoot to kill" the demonstrators at the Democratic national convention, Democrats knew reform was necessary. By the 1972 election, several changes were made to the presidential election process.

The reform of the nomination process brought several new steps to the presidential nomination process. The process began relying on caucus and primary results and the nomination process stretched to six months of campaigning in caucus and primary states. The reform attempted to involve voters in the initial steps of a party's nomination.

Art Sanders, associate professor of political science at Drake University said the current system opened up the nomination process. "It's open...the public has the ability to choose the candidate," he said.

Currently the election process begins at the Iowa caucuses in February of the election year, and continues with several state caucuses and conventions and 39 primary elections. The final candidate nomination takes place at the national conventions in July and August.

A caucus is an informal meeting with candidates and potential voters. Candidates go to all areas of a state to speak with voters in churches, schools and even private homes. A caucus vote differs from the presidential election in November because candidates compete with members of the same party to win a partyÕs nomination.

Because of the reform in 1968, caucuses and primaries have been in the forefront of the presidential nomination process. By 1980, primaries selected 71 percent of the delegates at the Democratic national convention.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. what's your point?
I don't understand what you're trying to say...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Maybe so. But I've never heard a candidate whine so much.
Even losing candidates in the past didn't whine as much as Hillary has been doing this year. Each state gets to pick its own procedures. In my very blue, very politically active state, which usually has the highest voter turnout in the country, we still do caucuses to chose delegates for the presidential candidates; primaries for other elections. Yes, they are not a perfect way of doing things, but the party has not seen fit to do it otherwise. Maybe if Hillary comes to Minnesota and whines REAL LOUD they'll switch just to shut her up?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. you call it "whining"
I call it a powerful argument...

The facts are that caucuses, which have been dominated by Obama, are by there very nature not an accurate reflection of the polity.
They can and are dominated, because of the small numbers that turn out, by activists - who are generally not representative of the general population. And the general population is who WINS general elections.

Obama, despite outspending Clinton 5 to 1, was unable to win the biggest swing state of all - Ohio. Hillary's demographics - her core support - comes from the part of the general populace that decides general elections - Obama's doesn't. You, as a Democrat, should be worried about this - because winning the general election is the whole POINT of this process.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SKKY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. You wouldn't be so critical of the caucus system if HRC had swept all of them...
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 05:31 PM by ALiberalSailor
...just a hunch, but I'd put some money on it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. You would lose
Jackboot tactics are reprehensible no matter WHO uses them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
25. Why did the Democratic establishment endorse caucuses as a legitimate election method?
I mean, even Clinton advisor Harold Ickes set out to "disenfranchise" voters, by your logic.

HRC was for caucuses before she was against them, when her husband managed to come out victorious with caucusers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's inherently unfair to go by popular vote--it won't be done that way, for just
the reasons you cited--good work.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
8. Caucuses are ABSOLUTELY NOT democratic as obama and his followers have shown.
Shall we forget 'the people' voters and always allow the elitists, whether THEY are the SCOTUS or the SUPER DELEGATES; to select which candidate they will allow US to vote for or eventually become President?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jillian Donating Member (577 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
10. So you are saying that the people's vote shouldn't count?
You must've been thrilled with the outcome of the 2000 election then.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Not if the "math" shows they can win another way
It beats ALL I have ever seen.
And yet many of these posters have previously criticized the Electoral College.
Go figure.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jillian Donating Member (577 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Exactly - I thought Dems were pissed off about the electoral college.
Hmmm - I must've missed something here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PseudoIntellect Donating Member (701 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Are there caucuses in the GE?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. No. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
11. Caucuses Are a Test of Organizational Power (More Than Claims of "Experience")
Being able to organize at the grassroots level is one of several indicators on which to base the prospect of someone's capacity to be President. As much as Clinton talks about her "experience," it turns out that being an inner city grassroots organizer is more useful experience than being First Lady.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Bingo!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
13. Obama is leading in popular votes in both primaries and in caucuses. Obama is leading
in popular votes in big blue states.

Obama is leading in dlegates.

Obama is leading in contests won.

Hillary is leading in spin. Next we will see Hillary claiming spin should decide the nomination.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
15. 1964, Johnson won 61% of the vote, and got 90.5% of the EC



McCain might lose like Goldwater in 1964.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Interesting you brought up '64
Didn't HRC vote for Goldwater?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Wasn't obama going to Muslim preschool?
See how THAT works?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. It also works like this
I think it's a dumb argument, because a lot of us change our political affiliation between high school and college, but just for the record:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3079098/

"(Katie) Couric: “Well, you were a Goldwater girl…”

(Hillary) Clinton: “That’s right. ”

Couric: “…all the way down to the cowgirl outfit. ”

Clinton: “That’s right. I was a Goldwater girl. ”

Couric: “And you were elected president of the Young Republicans. But then found yourself leaning in another direction. I guess, as a result of your participation in the mock election debate.”

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. No actually he was not
Obama attended a Madrassa which is the Arabic language word for school. Arabic does not equal Muslim. Try again...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Just pointing out the stupidity of the reply
In 1964 I was shitting in diapers so how is what SHE or HE did in 1964 relevant?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. I agree that the Goldwater Girl thing is stupid..
But it is at least true. I feel obligated to set the record straight about the madrassa thing when need be.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
37. Didn't she work in the campaign ?
So I'm sure she voted for Goldwater. :_)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
19. Thanks, Altair for all the work
you've done to put this together for people like me who appreciate the explainations of what exactly went down in those States!!

Rec-o-mmended!

hilarland, no doubt, knows this but they're trying to cheat the people and the country and win at any cost.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
35. It's a bogus argument that the kids who don't understand elections are playing with, some of these
kids are even polititians and msm types. Thanks for pointing out the obvious.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
36. I have no issue with changing our entire election process - in some ways, I welcome the idea.
HOWEVER, it must be done during a lull time between elections, not in the middle of the process.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
againes654 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
40. Trying with all your might to find a way for Hillary to win huh
Well, good luck with that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
41. .
:kick: and r

Very well put.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
42. enough with the reality bullshit! there's no place for that on gd:p. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC