Prostitution isn't "immoral"

[mudesi]

It may be illegal (and it shouldn't be), but unless the sex isn't consensual, it's not rape and it's not immoral.

I just wanted to point that out here on this apparently liberal and progressive forum. As an aside, the Lewinsky affair wasn't immoral either. I only point that out because for some reason that topic keeps coming up as well.

You know what is immoral? All those times Republicans were caught sexually assaulting children. Or pets. Or any other kind of sex that is not consensual.

Okay?

[redqueen]

1. Okay well... prostitution isn't immoral by definition... but cheating on your wife?

Uhhhh.. yeah, that is, actually.

[Yes We Did]

47. Absolutely! My thoughts exactly.

[Hepburn]

53. Yeah, I do have a total problem with cheating going on in any..

...exclusive relationship. Especially if the other partner does not know and because of this, has not been taking safe sex precautions. That is a HUGE health related issue to me besides the issue of breaking a very special promise.

JMHO

[Thickasabrick]

57. What if your wife is insane and you can't leave her or she will

kill herself, etc. You can never know someone else's reasons for what they do (unless they tell you). People really need to chill with the judgmental stuff.

[redqueen]

84. Well sure there may be extenuating circumstances, but you know

that's not usually the case. What percentage of cases of cheating would you say those types of situation made up? 5%? 10%? I think those are very generous numbers. Very generous.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Between him and her, just like it was between Hillary and Bill

I truly don't care.

And yes, if she (or he, lets not be coy about it, women also cheat), wants to divorce the other, for cheating, fine.. their issue, PRIVATE issue.

Time we grow up as a nation

[latinolatteliberal]

66. bravo

very well said

[Chasing Dreams]

82. Was Bill caught up in this one too? I didn't know he was on the list.

[redqueen]

85. I didn't say it was anyone else's business... just that it's immoral.

Which it is. But yes, as with Bill... personal matter. On that we completely agree.

[Hieronymus]

81. Having her stand there with him today in a press conference cost him ...

a lot more than that hooker did. Go get him.

[Sparkly]

89. Separate things.

In Spitzer's case, both are going on -- cheating and hiring a sex worker. (And hypocrisy, etc.)

BUT, not all prostitution involves cheating on one's spouse; and not all cheating on one's spouse involves prostitution.

[redqueen]

96. Yeah... which is why I addressed them separately. (nt)

[snooper2]

2. is it amoral

:)

[IntravenousDemilo]

3. If you're talking about Spitzer, that's hardly the point. n/m

[anonymous171]

4. Or pets..............

:rofl: Yeah, it's not supposed to be funny but...

[Auntie Bush]

13. What Dobson did to his dog was disgusting and immoral and should be far more

illegal that what Eliot did between to consulting partners.

[redqueen]

20. Dobson? Dog?

:wtf:

:scared:

[Auntie Bush]

33. Haven't you herd about that? Dobson wrote about it himself in his own book. I could almost cry eve

every time I even think about it. It takes too long to tell you with my two finger typing. Check it out on Google...but be prepared to cry. It wasn't about sex...it was about cruelty to animals that he advocated! The man is sick and that's putting it nicely! I hate him more than Rush!

[redqueen]

35. I thought Frist & Romney were the big animal abusers...

*sigh*

[Critters2]

72. Quite disturbing.

http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/DobsonsDog.html

and

http://www.usndemvet.com/blog/archives/003261.html

[TheZug]

5. I agree, but it's illegal, and for Spitzer, hypocritical.

[housewolf]

43. What exactly did Spitzer do that's illegal?

I'm trying to figure it out, and as best I can figure, he got caught up along with other "johns" contacting prostitutes. It that illegal in NY now?

[Thothmes]

75. Transporting a person a between

States for purposes of Prositution is a Federal offense.

[thevoiceofreason]

6. With the prevelance of STD's, it is damn close to it now if you are married.

[napi21]

22. Hmmm, maybe, but somehow I don't think there's a BIG RISK

with a $3,00/hr "girl"

I know I'm going to sound like a real sexist, but for any guy to pay THAT MUCH MONEY for an hour of sex is flat out crazy! All it tell me is that they have a whole lot more money than brains!

[thevoiceofreason]

64. No arguments there. Give the money to charity and . . . you know

[Swamp Rat]

7. Yep! n/t

[RC]

8. Or starting wars for fun and profit.

[bunnies]

9. The Lewinsky affair wasnt immoral?

Cheating on your fucking WIFE isnt immoral?? Whatfuckingever.

I dont give a damn about prostitution. In fact. I think it should be legal.

But cheating on your wife is fucking immoral. In fact, its abhor able.

[TheDonkey]

Very true. The adultery aspect is upsetting

I do not understand why these politicians try starting this type of shit when they know everyone is watching. It is so pointless and destructive.

[bunnies]

23. Not to mention Stupid.

I mean... how frigging stupid can these guys be? Oh... Im a political figure but I think I'll screw this chick or hire this prostitute. What. The. Hell. Their intelligence has to be questioned.

[Thothmes]

76. testosterone trumps commons sense every time.

[DemVet]

14. Agreed. n/t

[redqueen]

24. Yes, it is. (nt)

[housewolf]

25. Look, there are women who care that their husband/lover is faithful and those that don't

Not EVERY woman feels the need or even wants monagamy. Not every woman feels betrayed by her husband/lover having sex with someone else.

It's totally and completely an INDIVIDUAL matter, and that takes it out of the realm of moral/immoral.

YOU may think it's immoral and that so it is TO YOU. Others do not and should not have your standards applied to them.

Granted, that's what religions try to do inorder to control people.

[bunnies]

29. Hey... If the wife is for it... then more power to them.

Im not religious at all. In fact... Im an atheist. However... In the case of Lewinsky and Spitzer the wives obviously were not into it.

Liars and deceptive pricks deserve to be put in a different basket than people who are willing to have an open marriage.

[redqueen]

30. Please allow me to extend a late welcome...

Welcome to DU, bunnies!

:hi:

[bunnies]

94. Thanks redqueen!

:hi:

[Tatiana]

26. Amen.

If you want to screw around, do your wife a favor and get a divorce first.

[TheDonkey]

10. It is illegal. Spitzer should resign

I do not believe it is immoral for consenting adults but I find it lacking class and it is illegal so Spitzer has no choice.

[DemVet]

17. Agreed. n/t

[housewolf]

44. What did Spitzer do that's illegal?

I'm trying to figure it out and so far, I can't.

[WinkyDink]

56. Hiring a prostitute? You do not know that is illegal?

[easy_b94]

11. Prostitution isn't "immoral" but Cheating on your WIFE IS

[onenote]

12. not necessarily disagreeing, but how do you define "morality"?

Without some notion of what the words mean, I'm not sure how one thing can be viewed as moral and another as immoral.

[Fresh_Start]

15. If a man is cheating on his wife and exposing her to disease....

its immoral.

[Spider Jerusalem]

16. Prostitution should be legalised, as far as I'm concerned.

It's going to exist anyway; making it legal, and regulated, both greatly reduces the more exploitative aspects (prostitution rings that rely on sexual enslavement of undocumented immigrants, for instance) and removes organised crime from the equation.

But then I think that the so-called 'War on Drugs' is a sham, too; so it's hard not to feel a tinge of schadenfreude at Spitzer the drug warrior feeling the sting of consequences from his behaviour.

[Yurovsky]

28. Exactly. Heaven forbid we let cops pursue violent criminals ...

no, no, no, lets waste precious public resources to determine who's fucking whom and whether or not Bill the mailman likes to unwind with a doobie after work.

I always thought your rights stopped where someone else's nose started. But everybody needs to keep their nose out of everyone else's goddamn business.

[brentspeak]

18. "Liberal" and "progressive" aren't the same things as "libertarian"

Progressivism and liberalism aren't ideologies that are meant to address the issue of prostitution.

[latinolatteliberal]

49. doesn't mean we can't borrow from the libertarians

They actually have a decent idea from time to time. We shouldn't let their dorky bow ties blind us to that.

[Blue-Jay]

52. I wouldn't borrow a cup of sugar from a "libertarian".

They'd probably charge me a user fee or interest or some other kind of selfish me-first bullshit.

[latinolatteliberal]

63. denying man's selfishness isn't going to help us

It seems like you've met quite a few libertarians who are assholes. That's not hard to do. Many of them tend to act like douchebags. That doesn't mean that their obsession with personal liberty doesn't have some merits. While many of their arguments appear selfish, they would not be blind to the value of goodwill created by neighbors borrowing the proverbial cup of sugar.

This year we have an amazing chance to expand the coalition of the Democratic Party and I think that some libertarians can fit under our umbrella. 8 years of Republican encroachment into our civil liberties should be a good talking point to this end, no? Unless, of course, we want to keep losing by one "swing" state in the Electoral College.

[Blue-Jay]

67. I've never denied the selfishness of mankind.

Here's the difference, however: Most people can recognize selfishness as an obstacle to be overcome in their personal lives.

"Libertarian" Randroid assholes somehow see selfishness as some sort of weird virtue to be embraced. It's sociopathic.

[latinolatteliberal]

69. I hear ya

You've given me some good food for thought. I'm probably far more libertarian-leaning than most people in a progressive/liberal site. However, I have found myself the lone voice arguing the liberal position around tables full of libertarians in the past. I always wondered why an ideology that I often found so appealing was frequently practiced by jackasses. This sociopathy (is that a word?) claim of yours may shed some light on that question. Maybe the selfish gravitate to the ideology that paints in a positive light their social ineptness?

Just the same, I like many of their ideas. In this bounce-house of political ideas I think can we discuss them without shooting their messengers.

edit: grammar

[Whisp]

19. you are quite right. I think.

the fact that the woman may have been a prostitute has no relevance.

The guy allegedly screwed around on his wife - whether it was a prostitute or not makes no difference.

Is it immoral to cheat on your spouse? some would say so.

I'm all for legalization of prostitution. btw. - a womans body and what she decides to do with it and with whom and for what reason is none of our collective mindeds damn business. This moralistic crotch sniffing is disgusting.

now as far as Spitzer and all the rest in line that have done similar things - betraying their families, etc.,
he can go to hell - not because he visited a prostitute, because he's a two faced prickish cheater selfish bastard that has no control over his weewee.

[Melinda]

21. And yet it's criminal, and in the instant case, may well end w/only the women being charged

and/or convicted.

And that's the ONLY immoral thing about it.

[Eric J in MN]

45. Firstly, none of the prostitutes are indicted...

...(based on what I've read).

Secondly, the four people indicted are the four who ran the service, which includes a man and three women.

[elizm]

27. Cheating on your wife isn't immoral?? nt

[theredpen]

31. To quote George Carlin:

Selling is legal.
Fucking is legal.
Why isn't selling fucking legal?!

[quakerboy]

32. How do you figure?

How many prostitutes do you know? Why are they doing what they do? If my wife(not that i have one) has low self esteem and I use that to take advantage of her in some way, that is immoral. Same with any relationship between people. Just because something is consensual does not make it moral.

[Sparkly]

90. Just because some people have low self-esteem

doesn't mean that occupations other people may choose freely are immoral. :shrug:

If you're talking about coercion, deception, fraud, abuse, etc. -- that's one thing. The choice of being a sex worker without the government making you a criminal (to protect you, of course) is something else.

[doyourealize1]

34. I'm not telling my kids to become prostitutes

I'm a fan of moral relativism and all, but prostitution is too far. It is demeaning to people, and I would never support it to be legalized. Call me prudish and all, but geez.

Also, it's pretty lame to say that Repubs are usually the people sexually assaulting kids.

[Raine]

36. I don't agree

it's immoral to cheat on your wife. Yeah it was consensual between him and the prositute but he betrayed his wife. Unless his wife comes out and says they have an open marriage then her consent for it was not given.

[Spider Jerusalem]

40. And that's a matter that's between him and his wife.

I fail to see how it's anyone else's business.

[Thothmes]

80. From a public standpoint

If a man will violate his wedding vows, how much of a stretch is it that he will violate his oath of office. If he views one as flexible then he will probably view the other in the same light. JMO

[electron_blue]

37. Not all prostitution is consensual. There is a reason it's illegal.

[Thickasabrick]

59. The reason it is illegal has nothing to do with protecting women. It is

illegal in this country because it goes against "christian values".

[electron_blue]

71. It's one of the main reasons and worth keeping illegal for that alone.

I really don't care if it coincidentally pleases Christians.

[Sparkly]

87. I think it's illegal to restrict women's control of their bodies

because of the (perceived) threats to the family, the economy, and society as a whole.

[Sparkly]

86. Not all SEX is consensual, and we haven't criminalized sex.

Most of the difficulties faced by prostitutes result from the fact that it is illegal.

[Jersey Devil]

38. Well, the problem is that Spitzer investigated prostitution

and indicted a lot of people for exactly the same conduct, so apparently he thought it a serious crime.

A lot of people also thing drugs should be legalized as well, but as long as these things remain illegal a public official should know better than to engage in those activities, particularly one who was a prosecutor.

[DuaneBidoux]

39. You can not say whether it is not immoral for some.

I do agree that it should be legal. Spitzer's problem is going to be that he has been a crusader and when you are a crusader you'd better be lilly white on all fronts, or you are likely to have a major problem somewhere down the line.

[Drunken Irishman]

41. It's immoral by default, since he was cheating on his wife.

The act itself, no, but the fact he was a married man makes it immoral.

[anamandujano]

42. It's embarrassing which is more important to politicians.

[Zynx]

46. In his case it involves a breach of trust with a loved one. Therefore it is immoral.

[latinolatteliberal]

48. His wife should care about the cheating. Not us.

He cheated on his wife? Big deal. She should care about that. Not us.

And, yes, prostitution should be legal, as should be drug use. Talk about a taxable revenue stream. Here we have two examples of taxes that may actually remedy negative externalities while adding to the public coffers and instead we decide to act morally superior while empowering criminal enterprises all too happy to fill this market void. Pathetic.

[WinkyDink]

62. Did Governor Spitzer not swear to uphold the law? People don't get arrested for adultery; they get

arrested for breaking the law.

[latinolatteliberal]

65. I object to his failing to meet his obligations. Not the adultery itself.

I guess my argument is for the law to be changed. Mostly because the law is stupid on this subject.

[lumberjack_jeff]

50. Cheating is. n/t

[Hepburn]

51. IMO, prostitution should be legalized.

I see nothing wrong with it. Hey, it's the only asset one can sell and still have it after the sale!

:hi:

[Thickasabrick]

54. Agree 100% - thank you for posting what I was thinking. People

are being extremely judgmental today

[WinkyDink]

55. But breaking a law---perhaps especially when you are a LAW-ENFORCER---IS immoral.

Throwing other men into prison for what you yourself are doing in secret IS IMMORAL.
Breaking your wedding vows IS IMMORAL.
Degrading women, no matter for how high a price, IS IMMORAL.
(I don't want to hear "choice". Pay them $4100 to watch TV for an hour, and I'd bet the women would be much happier.)

Sorry. But trying to excuse an illegal act by declaring it moral doesn't fly for a sworn governor.

Or for the John on the street, either.

[THUNDER HANDS]

58. paying for sex is skeevy, regardless of whether you consider it a moral issue or not

[Thickasabrick]

60. There are many unattractive people out there and this may be

the only way they can attain a moment of "intimacy" with someone of the opposite sex. I have had prostitute acquaintances and you would be surprised at the different reasons people use their services. None of these women were slaves and were very "normal" in every other way other than what they did for a living.

[eilen]

70. My vote is that prostitution, money laundering and adultery

are all immoral. Prostitution is dehumanizing and base. Adultery is a betrayal of vows and also dehumanizing. Laundering money gained from other crimes is illegal and immoral. I am very surprised to see so many prostitution posts on a board so sensitive to sexism and populated by feminists. I have no respect for a public official who commits any of the above. Those actions betray a lack character, self discipline and integrity.

Oh, and Spitzer? He didn't just partake of the services x1,-- he was a steady customer and had a credit of $400--he planned to continue doing business. He also busted this outfit once before and was very high & mighty about it.

I also don't know why people bring republicans into this, they have nothing to do with it and certainly have their own scandals to deal with. Deflecting one's own dirt to another is juvenile. I think when people screw up like this, they should own up to their misdeed, take the consequences and then proceed to lead a better life and redeem themselves. No use trying to mix your karma against another, that is moral relativism, a shadowy corridor that has lead to great damage to the Democratic party.

I wonder at the men who think it is just fine-- your daughters and sons, you would think being a prostitute a fine and dandy profession so long as they made lots of money? talk about hypocritical.

[StevieM]

77. But where is your evidence that Spitzer engaged in money laundering?

This is probably a straight forward episode of going to a prostitute. Yes, it's illegal. But not exactly mafia-level activity.

Steve

[eilen]

83. I don't have any evidence. I don't work for the IRS or the FBI

But apparently the money transfers into shell companies that didn't truly exist were what raised red flags (at least from what I read) that started the investigation because it was atypical for a governor to be making such transactions.

"The federal investigation of a New York prostitution ring was triggered by Gov. Eliot Spitzer's suspicious money transfers, initially leading agents to believe Spitzer was hiding bribes, according to federal officials.
It was only months later that the IRS and the FBI determined that Spitzer wasn't hiding bribes but payments to a company called QAT, what prosecutors say is a prostitution operation operating under the name of the Emperors Club. …

The suspicious financial activity was initially reported by a bank to the IRS which, under direction from the Justice Department, brought in the FBI's Public Corruption Squad.

"We had no interest at all in the prostitution ring until the thing with Spitzer led us to learn about it," said one Justice Department official."

This was from ABC.

It may have been his bank that raised the red flags to the FBI. They do this automatically when there are transfers of money $10,000 or over are undertaken and also when there is a pattern of $9,000 transfers that would seem unusual.

I believe that the investigating officials were extremely surprised to find that the money was being used for prostitutes as was the balance of the taxpayers and citizens of the State of NY.

[Sparkly]

88. Cleaning toilets is also "dehumanizing and base." But we don't put people in jail for it.

So is a lot of what we pay combat troops to do.

Spitzer's hypocrisy is a different matter. I fault him less for hiring a sex worker than for boosting his career going after them. And primarily, it's just the hypocrisy.

[WinkyDink]

91. No, cleaning toilets is not. It's honest, hard work. That other is in your mind only.

[GOPBasher]

68. I agree that it shouldn't be illegal, but yes I think it's immoral.

We can disagree on morals; that's the point. And cheating on one's wife is, in my opinion, definitely immoral. No, none of these things should be illegal; on that we agree.

Non consensual sex is both immoral and illegal.

The point is that the law should not be based on what some people think is moral or immoral, because we don't necessarily agree on that.

[Medusa]

73. Under the Mann Act, it is.

I don't care what you might THINK of it's morality or imorality but that's the LAW. We could debate all day about the rightness of the Mann Act but it's been around forever.

[Freddie Stubbs]

74. It is if your wife doesn't know about it

[citizen snips]

78. I would bet most republicans in Nevada will agree.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WinkyDink]

92. You are not society's arbiter of what is or isn't "immoral". I think the OP needed a few "IMO's".

[Colobo]

93. It should be legal, but it's not.

[Occam Bandage]

95. No. Supporting a prostitution ring when you've built a career on taking them down is.