I do have to wonder how "invisible" women my age and younger feel...

[Recursion]

...which may be part of this macabre "suffering contest" we're seeing.

I'm 31, male, and of mixed race (I kind of like the term "octoroon", though technically I'm between an octoroon and a quadroon) but light-skinned enough to "pass", which I've always done, so I've come from the privileged side of everything except poverty (I grew up on WIC and later TANF).

In my lifetime, women have always been graduating from high school and getting college degrees at a significantly higher rate than men. Of the top 10 students in my high school, 2 of us were males and the other 8 were females. While the girls in high school could get summer jobs in offices we had to do manual labor outside because "boys are too rambunctious for office work" (actual quote when I applied, despite having a 3.9 average and perfect attendance in school). 2/3rds of my professors in college were women. My high school US history textbook included two chapters on women's issues, and our standards test included identifying Seneca Falls, Susan B Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton (she was my favorite). My high school principal and vice-principal were women; for that matter the only male faculty were one science teacher (out of 5), and three coaches that got roped into teaching health or civics classes. The only man of color in the school at all was the janitor.

Meanwhile, I watched 1 in 10 of the African-American boys in my high school go to jail, and watched only half as many boys (of any race) go to college as girls. Now I'm not proposing any sort of "reviving Laertes" revisionism about the alleged horrible plight boys face (though I do think secondary education is doing a whole lot to shut boys out, at least in many schools). But I do think that people my age honestly have grown up mostly seeing female success and male failure among our peers and even our predecessors, particularly in African American communities (where any black man of any moderate success is suddenly latched onto as a "role model" -- a phrase that bothers the hell out of me, like a successful black man is some kind of mutant snowflake that must be preserved, studied, and cloned to save all the other black boys from themselves).

Anyways, to de-tangent, I just don't know how "invisible" many of us younger types feel women actually are.

(And a final note, I'm not saying we're "right" in that perception, or that women who do feel invisible are "wrong" to do so; I'm trying to somewhat civilly lay out a difference of perception that I've noticed.)

[JimGinPA]

1. Great Post

K&R

[DeadElephant_ORG]

2. some people are too invisible to be visibly invisible.

[leftofcool]

3. But it is the age factor

You are the same age as one of my sons. He too grew up seeing women succeed. He had more female teachers. But in the great scheme of things, it is still a good ole boys club in this country. Women have not yet arrived but we are getting there. The road is long.

[bunnies]

4. Im turning 35 this month.

And I am not invisible by any means. I have never felt invisible and can't imagine that I ever will.

[leftofcool]

6. We have twin daughters age 32

They don't feel invisible. But as parents, we made damn sure they never would in the world of old white haired men who make laws in their name.

[LisaM]

5. But if what you say is true, what about older women? What about the ones who paved the way?

Susan B. Anthony never lived to cast a vote. I don't think that's right. Are all those great feminists of the 60s and 70s going to be denied ever seeing the fruits of their labor pay off? I'm not speaking just of Hillary. I've heard many claims of, yes, we should have a woman president, just not HER. OK, fine. If she doesn't make it, my money will go to other women candidates either directly or via EMILY's list.

[Medusa]

8. I'm supposed to vote for Hillary becaues of Susan B. Anthony

:eyes:

I don't feel any obligation, emotionally or morally to fellow female candidates. Some of the worst bosses I've ever had have been female. So I was supposed to suggest they be promoted because they were female even if they weren't qualified for a job?

[leftofcool]

11. Absolutely not!

You should vote for your preferred candidate

[LisaM]

13. I actually didn't say you should vote for her, so don't get so defensive

I just pointed out that it's of little consolation to the feminists of the 1960s and 1970s that a woman might not be elected in their lifetime. One of my friends, who is older than I (she's in her mid 50s) said that at her caucus, a young woman spoke for Obama and said, "I don't care if we have a woman president this time or not, because I know it will happen in my lifetime". The speaker was around 20 years old.

My friend and I took that two different ways. She thought it was a positive statement; I saw it as a negative one. How much longer do we wait? (Again, not just on Hillary's behalf, but any other woman candidate). How old will we be? Will we be alive? I want to see this, very badly. I want to see what a woman's POV would do for us domestically and internationally. And I don't want to wait until I'm 90, either.

[Recursion]

22. A woman's POV

What advantages does a woman, qua woman, bring to the Oval Office? In what sense is Senator Clinton's point of view "different" from others for being a woman?

[LisaM]

26. Back in 1992, when a lot of women won office

there was an interesting study done about the effect it would have on Congress. I'll have to dig hard to find it, but, for instance, they said that women lawmakers tended to vote more money for education and health care (just two examples). It also pointed to the fact that a presence of even ten or fifteen percent of women lawmakers in Congress, for example, had a ripple effect, and that there was a perception that the number was slightly higher, and likewise, domestic spending for social programs increased.

I would also add that, in MY OPINION, so don't assume it for everyone, that Roe v. Wade is more important to women than men. My brother is liberal, but he doesn't even have a woman's right to choose on his top ten issues; neither do other men I know.

[Recursion]

28. If you can find that, it would be really interesting to see

And I'm curious where that would come from.

Roe v. Wade is more important to women than men

I would agree, and I'd point out that the strongest proponents I know on both sides of that debate are women. I have done reproductive choice advocacy but honestly I only came to the issue because I care strongly about medical privacy for other reasons. There is an extent to which even men on the anti-choice side feel uncomfortable talking one way or the other on the issue (both anti- and pro-choice women can be quick to denigrate the opinions of the womb-less in that debate).

[LisaM]

32. It was in a magazine, and it was 1992 or 1993

so, pre-Internet. I'll dig, though.

[Recursion]

38. Smile

it was 1992 or 1993 so, pre-Internet

My first use of the Internet was in 1988, and it was 20 years old at that point :)

Actually, if it was the "Year of the Woman" Time issue, I still have that somewhere.

[LisaM]

40. I know it existed!

But I also know that you couldn't readily access Time Magazine online, either, and I don't know anyone who had it in their HOUSE! I knew a few people in the academic world who would dial in on modems, but I meant the Internet as we know it.

It could have been Time, but I don't think it was. But maybe! Take a look!

[Recursion]

41. The outdoor construction job I mentioned in the OP...

...was running SLIP cables. Since some of them were in my neighborhood, I managed to wrangle myself a connection when the boss wasn't watching.

But, until Berners-Lee invented the Web, it wasn't terribly searchable unless you count Archie. Ah, the days of Archie and Gopher...

[avrdream]

53. Sex doesn't rule their lives.

Example: Eliot Spitzer.

Another example: Bill Clinton.

Ask any woman 40 or more (I'm a gynecologist so I see this CONSTANTLY) if she is interested in sex. They sort of casually are but it doesn't rule their lives. To me, this is a big advantage to having female leaders.

I mean, Eliot FUCKING Spitzer! Who would have thought it? Big brain, meet little brain.

[Nay]

57. Gotta agree here. I think most women my age (50's) have a very

casual, 'so what' attitude toward sex, and it NEVER actually ruled our lives at any time, even when we were young. In fact, many of my women friends are repulsed by the emphasis men put on sex; they aren't repulsed by sex itself, but they are distressed by the unbelievable emphasis men of all ages put on it. We honestly wonder how they can walk around and get anything done.

[eridani]

59. Ever talk to women who have taken testosterone to boost flagging sex drives?

I swear, a good friend cut back to quarter doses because with the whole pills she couldn't get all her work done!

[Nay]

62. No, I haven't -- but I've heard that testosterone was pretty good for

that! I guess I wonder how many women really want to get that interested again. I don't get the feeling that many do, but that just may be the crowd I run in. We seem to be more interested in running around on the playground with our grandkids...or writing our novels, etc.

[BonnieJW]

24. We wait until she comes.

I am 58 years old and would love to see a woman president, but not ANY woman president. Unfortunately, any woman who becomes president will be judged by a much harsher set of rules. I am disappointed in Sen. Clinton because she is a brilliant and capable candidate. Her scruples and integrity fall short.

[elehhhhna]

30. well said.

[leftofcool]

9. I think you just nailed it

It isn't a dislike of Obama. What's not to like? It is seeing the fruits of the labor paid for in full, finally. Many of us know we won't have another chance in our life time of seeing it.l If we are wrong in the way we feel then we just have to be wrong.

[Independent-Voter]

12. Well, you're wrong. Easy enough.

The "it's all about me" generation is shining through in spades.

[leftofcool]

18. I passed the "all about me" generation

Now that I am 66 anyway

[Recursion]

10. Yes, I know that the Moses'es of the world rarely see the Promised Land

And I don't think that's fair or right, but Anthony and Stanton have been dead for a century (Anthony herself has sad but determined quotes about how she was planting winter wheat for others to harvest). How many women or African Americans don't even vote nowadays, despite how many risked so much to get that right recognized?

Are all those great feminists of the 60s and 70s going to be denied ever seeing the fruits of their labor pay off?

I'm going to put on my asbestos suit and suggest that those fruits have paid off tremendously, for a lot of the reasons I mentioned in the OP. I'm also going to double up that asbestos suit and suggest a generational difference: the 60's and 70's leaders wanted change in the form of female Presidents, Senators, and CEO's, while those of us who are younger are more impressed with the fact that a woman can now attain a middle class lifestyle in control of her body and finances without needing a man's "protection". Rightly or wrongly, Senator Clinton is perceived by many as having ridden her husband's coattails to prominence and that rubs a lot of us the wrong way, particularly those of us who grew up seeing women succeeding on their own (which, again, was not something the 60's and 70's feminist leaders grew up seeing, so the difference in perception shouldn't be all that surprising, I guess).

[k8conant]

15. I first heard of Emily's List from my stepmother who was 80 at the time...

she was especially discouraged that her three daughters were Republicans (I don't know about her son).

I would be perfectly happy to vote for a woman for president (and yes I did vote for Ferraro for vice president) but I will NOT vote for a woman just because she is a woman. I never would have voted for Nancy Reagan nor Barbara Bush nor Laura Bush either.

If I'm still around in 20 years maybe I'll vote for my own daughter.

[demodonkey]

17. Um, actually Susan B and 16 other women DID cast a vote for President in 1872...

... but they were arrested for it.

http://content.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=4973

She traveled the country giving a speech "Is it A Crime To Vote" which has this famous statement in it:

"It was we, the people, not we, the white male citizens, nor yet we, the male citizens; but we, the whole people, who formed this Union. And we formed it, not to give the blessings or liberty, but to secure them; not to the half of ourselves and the half of our posterity, but to the whole people-women as well as men. "

[xmas74]

7. It has to be where you were raised.

I am a 33 year old woman raised in a small town in Missouri. When I was in high school I applied for various jobs only to be told that I "shouldn't worry my pretty head" about them. The jobs at the local pharmacy, the attorneys offices,vet offices, etc all went to high school boys. The manual labor jobs-farm work, caddy work and so on-also went to the high school boys because the girls "weren't strong enough". (And yes, most of the "poor girls", myself included, wanted these jobs since they paid an average of 1-2 dollars more an hour.) My high school job experience was limited to babysitting, waitressing and carhopping, as was most in my town.

Only one girl made my top ten in high school. She received a full ride to St Mary's.

I was quite interested in science. I was talked out of it by a few teachers because "it's too hard for a girl to compete in that area" and was told to look at "nursing instead, if you like science".

And it was nearly impossible to get some of the teachers to spend five seconds writing a reference for you if you were not male. The references were needed for various scholarships.

Oh, and the school-wide scholarships? Always went to male students at the time.

If you had a boyfriend in high school, from junior year on up, teachers would ask you when you were getting married. There was no mention of college and a career-it was assumed you were marrying and supporting your man as he went to school. The same boys in the relationship were asked where they would attend college and if they needed a reference. (My own boyfriend being an example of that.)

Girls were still expected to take Home Ec and Typing, while boys were not. (Two years after I graduated someone fought that and the rule was changed.) Some think I'm kidding but I clearly remember signing up for my freshman year and, even though I had asked for Botany and Accounting I was given Home Ec and Typing. So was nearly every other freshman girl.

Things must have been much different for you. Your world sounds cozier than mine ever did and I'm only two years older than you.

[Recursion]

16. I was in the deep south

In a very poor majority-black town. I think race has a lot more to do with this difference than people are comfortable talking about -- African-American women are expected to support their families, because the black men will mostly be dead or in jail.

Only one girl made my top ten in high school. She received a full ride to St Mary's.

Weird. As I mentioned, that is 100% opposite from what I've seen.

Oh, and the school-wide scholarships? Always went to male students at the time.

I was the first male student in 15 years to win a school-wide scholarship. There were some grumblings that it was because I was "white" (see the OP for parsing that).

Girls were still expected to take Home Ec and Typing, while boys were not.

I had to fight through the entire administration to take a keyboarding class rather than shop, and to show them that I was taking a computer class at the community college over the summer that required it.


And it was nearly impossible to get some of the teachers to spend five seconds writing a reference for you if you were not male. The references were needed for various scholarships.

*shrug* different schools. Our guidance counselors and faculty were impressed when a boy would stay out of trouble. Like I said, we had twice as many girls going to college as boys. Then again, I did graduate from high school right after the "Year of the Woman".

[xmas74]

34. Midwest tends to go with traditional values.

Women are expected to make a home for their families. I can remember in Home Ec actually learning how to set a proper table and how to cook for a dinner party "in case my husband were to bring home a colleague."

Most of the girls I went to high school with were married within a year of graduating from high school. Those who went to college dropped out with two years to marry and start a family. Few made it past that point. AT my ten year reunion I was one of six women who still was not married. (My graduating class was 248.)

At my school girls were not praised for showing any kind of intelligence. Instead they were ridiculed by both the students and often by teachers. We were taught not to speak out in class and if we did we were "troublemakers." "Afro-centric" literature was embraced at my school but not feminist literature. (I was once threatened with a suspension for reading Anne Sexton.) And women's issues were not to be discussed-ever.

Sounds like you had a great opportunity at your school and I'm glad that you embraced it. My school was quite different. I don't want to sound rude but I probably won't reply back. This is digging up memories that I tried my damnedest to forget and still have me on the verge of tears over 15 years later. Way too much talent was wasted because of the sexist beliefs of those in charge of my school district.

[LaurenG]

14. Hey I'm old and I'm a woman and I've never been invisible

except for the times in my life when I didn't set good boundaries and fell into the victim mode.

[Mojorabbit]

20. I'm over 50

and a woman and have never felt invisible either. I was raised by parents who drilled it into my sisters and I to get a good education so that we would never have to depend on a man to support us because life throws you curves. We are all strong women. I would like to see a woman become president and I think it will happen. I am not of the opinion that this is the last chance for it to happen.

[LaurenG]

31. Me too. nt

[OzarkDem]

19. On behalf of women who helped pave the way, you're welcome

I'm glad things are better for women your age than they were for those of us graduating from college and entering the workforce in the 1960's and 1970's.

We put up with a lot of resistance as the pioneers in academia and the working world. I was the first woman hired by my first employer above the rank of secretary in its 100+ year history. Later, I was the first to remain on the job as a manager during my pregnancy and later return to work. I was pleased to see the opportunities open to many other women after that.

Young women today should realize it hasn't been that long since women began making these gains and that they didn't come without lots of hard work.

[Recursion]

21. I don't know if people doubt that

I just don't think it automatically translates into support of this or that candidate in the primaries.

[OzarkDem]

45. For women who know the value of a woman president

and who have flashbacks from the old dirty tricks and sexist junk being thrown around in this race, its very important, particularly given that Clinton is better qualified and better prepared to handle the job.

[DemBones DemBones]

46. Younger people have no idea what our lives were like

and apparently don't care to learn, either. We're irrelevant now. Fuck that shit.

[katty]

23. Elizabeth CS and Susan BA were way ahead of their

time and thank god for their work and the work that continued by other women at great risk to their personal lives/families. Many of the progressive women at that time were shunned and abandoned by their families-left to make a living with very few/no marketable skills. America has a very long way to go with respect to women getting a fair shake-other than when they have to dance for a living on a pole (to feed their kids) in a strip club-that's OK in America, just like pushing America's Top Models, Victoria's Secret lingerie TV shows and Pussycat Doll images onto women. Most of the male gender in America think that kind of image of women is just great to promote. So, Hillary Clinton looks like 'mean ole mom'--a losing situation because she isn't exactly 'camera ready' like the beautiful Obama. Sometimes I really wonder if Clinton had long blond hair and a fabulous figure-even being a major bitch would make her sexy and therefore, in America: electable

[Recursion]

25. Physical attractiveness has always mattered in the Presidency, sadly

So you're probably right, though I think that shallowness hits male candidates as well as female ones (don't you think Dodd or Biden would have done better if they were handsome? Don't you think Edwards would have done worse if he looked like Kucinich?) That said, Senator Clinton is certainly on the "attractive" side of the spectrum, and I'd imagine that has helped her some.

[katty]

27. ans 1) yes 2) probably 3) generally helped her but

if she would loosen up the biz 'suit look' (mix her fashion look up at bit) and perhaps grow her hair out a bit longer/softer look she might just pull off a 'nice mom' or 'cool mom' look and thus, more warm and electable. John Edwards is tough, but he is naturally charming and warm, he is more a magnet in that manner-like Obama.

[Recursion]

36. Are you familiar with the "they don't like her hair" moment?

Stephanopolous and Carville were showing Bill the results of the real-time focus group pos/neg results they were getting from some campaign ads. Everything was great until Hillary appeared at which point the negatives spiked. Bill said, "My God, they don't like her hair". Carville and Stephanopolous had to restrain each other from laughing at him.

Anyways, I will admit I really don't like her hair or her fashion sense, though I trust myself enough to think that that isn't why I don't support her in the primaries. Men do get a "template" for fashion in formal settings (basically, they can choose their tie and that's about it) that women aren't allowed. But even that never kept Dodd from looking frumpy. Also, as a bearded man I am kind of sad that Richardson got trounced so bad since I would love to see the beard return as a sign of trustworthiness in men rather than a sign of sketchiness (I really loved it when Gore grew his out). I have wondered about the politics of the pantsuit: to my knowledge I have not seen Senator Clinton as a Senator (and only rarely as first lady) in a dress. I'm sure there's language there that is speaking to people older than me, sort of like Barack's tie choices seem to be lost on those over 35 (I absolutely love them). I grew up with the "reclaimed" skirt, from Joan Jett to Gwen Stefani, but like I mentioned I'm at least intellectually aware that skirts and dresses mean something very different to women (and probably even moreso to men) who grew up in a different time.

[katty]

42. yeah, i heard something about the 'hair moment' and not

surprised-and women detesting women is worse than guys going after another guy they can't stand. Women are socialized to defer to men (in America it does not matter if you are 20 or 60, that frame of reference and deference is still alive and kicking-perhaps, in some cases more subtle, but still present) and so women voting FOR a woman is a completely foreign concept to American women-not so in other countries. America is quite backward in this area (and others!). I have talked to some of my younger fem friends (I'm not a boomer but not in my 20's) and they think Hillary is just so 'uncool' even though they admit "mom" might get the job done (much like their own mothers have in work and family). Still a cool, cute guy is better than 'mom' and they believe Obama is really a new JFK. So, everything is perception - as usual, in America. When I am in London or Europe I like watching their world news programs-they get so much more information than Americans do, the contrast in information is amazing-thank god for the net.

[eridani]

61. I dunno. I think she looks pretty good in red

Her hairstyle looks simple and relatively easy to maintain, which has to be a consideration while campaigning.

[LisaM]

50. I think Dodd and Biden are just as handsome as Obama

Kucinich, yeah, I know, his looks work against him. Too bad.

[Recursion]

52. Dodd's eyebrows scare me

Biden's forehead is too big.

[Helga Scow Stern]

29. Thanks for this. n/t

[Independent-Voter]

33. Can we just say it? The Baby Boomers have fucked up yet another thing.

Look at this list of "winners"

Gary Hart
Bill Clinton
Dukakis
Kerry
HR Clinton
George Bush the lesser
Newt Gingrich

etc, etc, etc.

What a bunch of fucking clowns.

[DemBones DemBones]

48. I will have so much fun laughing at the clowns you kids run. You'll soon

learn that they only let us vote to make us think we have some power.

For the record, Kerry, Dukakis and Gary Hart are NOT Boomers and Newt is a newt.

[2rth2pwr]

35. The vast, overwhelming majority of the prison population is

men.

Rape in prison is encouraged and is high comedy in the elite crowds.

[galloglas]

37. If they are not deaf or blind!!

Then all who read this should "get it".

But it is amazing how many who have been on the "outside", in years past, are so very, very quick to politically slit the throats of the others who, likewise, have been "outside".

I guess it is fortunate that the Powers That Be have had a fragmented, segmented "underclass" to Lord it over for these many years.

Can you imagine how difficult it would be for the PTB to co-opt an underclass which considered itself most unified by their past social and political disenfranchisement?

And how easy it is when the PTB break the underclass, when...


Black, white, red, and yellow,
female, gay, and 'foreign fellow',

The game, the lame, the poor and meek,
who'll get some meat within the week,

When they decide to join with us,
forgetting what they learned was Just,

And take from Them the silver offered,
stolen from their kindred's coffer.

[Tatiana]

39. It is definitely hard for the black male in America.

That's why Ferraro's comments are so ignorant. I don't think there is anyone who'd want to trade places with the black male, whether dark as Wesley Snipes or bright as Harold Ford, Jr. They enter the workfore having to prove their value right off the bat, while others have time to mature and grow into a position. I see this at my own job.

You're more likely to be pulled over by police (especially if you drive a nice car).

You're more likely to be incarcerated.

You're more likely to receive a harsher sentence, no matter the crime.

:hug: to all my brothers out there from a black/latina friend!

[VotesForWomen]

43. you've made some accurate observations, but the important thing is the reason behind them. nt

[Recursion]

49. That's a very good point, and I think it's the "Moses" effect

It kind of seems to be The Way Of Things that those who take us through the wilderness don't get to see the fruits of their labors, because the whole raison d'etre of a social fighter is to end up making her struggle inconceivable to those who come after her.

It does bother me that women my age will say "I'm not a feminist or anything, but..." and then rattle off what I think are the essential agenda of feminism (I, for one, do not have a problem calling myself a feminist). But then again the word does miss something. At least, the struggle confronting my generation really isn't so much the struggle for women to become visible in public life (in that context, "feminism" as the name for the struggle made sense).

The issue my generation faces seems to be how to have sex identity be meaningful and positive in our lives. However much second-wavers may despise us for it, lots of people my age talk about "roles" in relationships; it's something those of us who rode that second wave to adulthood feel like we missed out on. Maybe they're right and there is no positive and affirming way to "really be" masculine and feminine in a relationship like a lot of us seem to want to, but then again it's not the previous generation's job to teach us that but ours to find it out. But obviously this extends far, far beyond male/female heterosexual relationships. What is gender identity? What is gender transgression? What is queerness? These questions are where we are now, and we seem to think they call for a less confrontational and more cooperative approach than the previous struggles of visibility and equality. *shrug*.

[DemBones DemBones]

44. And blacks were never discriminated against either, right?

[Marie26]

47. But you're only talking about education

Women do predominate in the education area - as both teachers & students. Teaching is a traditional field for women & one of the few "acceptable" professions for a woman to have. And it's true that women generally do better in academic areas than male students. But the BIG shift happens after graduation, in the work world. That's where the invisibility starts to happen. You said that 8 out of your 10 valedictorians were women - so why aren't 8 out of 10 CEOS women? Or 8 out of 10 news editors? Producers? Senators? If women got better grades, why don't they get higher wages? Why do women still earn less then men, even w/more education? The answer to that question has a lot to do w/patriarchy & the invisibility that women still have in the business world.

[Recursion]

51. It's also been the workplace for me

We're well aware of the over-60 white male privileged old boys club, and I don't think many of us expect that fraternity to crack until they've all died. That said, in the workplace I've been in female-majority offices all my life, even in the allegedly male-heavy tech industry (my particular job of systems administration is almost all male, for reasons that elude me; but I've worked with half again as many female programmers as male programmers, to say nothing of managers which with one exception have all been women). Basically, a very large and successful cadre of 30- and 40-something women are all over middle management in every company I've worked in, and it had never occurred to me to doubt that they will start trickling up to the boardrooms as vacancies start appearing (as, indeed, has already started to happen). Would I love to see the decrepit white fossils kicked out of boardrooms and replaced with something more meritocratic? Hell yes. I'm not holding my breath, though, and the dam seems to be cracking on its own just from promoting up the people in the middle right now.

The simple fact is, from school to industry I have always been accustomed to seeing strong and capable women in positions of authority, as have a lot of people my age.

[Marie26]

54. Maybe kicking

the decrepit white fossils out of the White House might be a good place to start. Women are moving up, but there are still significant factors that prevent true equality - while women will obtain & succeed in the working world, they'll still be paid less for the same job. Some of that is discrimination. Some of it is simply the fact that women are usually expected to make more concessions in their career for family, children, husbands etc. But a LOT of that is based on the way women are taught to be submissive, deferential, etc., while men are encouraged to demand promotions, be assertive, etc. That's where a kind of internalized patriarchy kicks in.

There IS still a lot of sexism in this country. And that's why I noted your focus on education as an accurate representative of the business world. It is not. And women's success in academic areas is still not reflected in terms of salary or leadership positions. Personally, I never felt like sexism was a big deal while at school; it seemed like a problem of the past, not something that affected women anymore. At my school, women basically dominated in academics, theater, newpaper, student government etc. It didn't hit me until I got my first professional job & saw first-hand the sexism that still exists in the business world. One boss tossed all resumes from women because "they wouldn't move", men were promoted over more qualified women, sexual harrassment was ignored. And it is also the little things - women would be ignored when they offered an idea, while a man would be praised, etc. These are the little things that operate to reinforce inequalities. And so I disagree w/the thesis of this post - that women don't feel invisible anymore. They are in many ways, still. Just as minorities are invisible in many ways. It's not a "suffering contest" to say that inequalities still exist in this country.

[Nay]

58. I've always felt that the fact that women started to dominate education

both in teaching and as college students has forced men OUT of teaching and college -- not because women are big bad bullies or women are being fawned over in those capacities, but because there are many men who, through their own sexism, started to feel that it was all
"female crap" and they wanted no part of it. In effect, they have put themselves out of the running in society just because they don't want to be a "pu**y."

I have a hard time feeling sorry for men and boys who feel this way. I also know you'd have a hard time getting them to admit it, and doubtless there are many men who don't even know why they reject learning/school. All I know is that up until the 90's, men were going great guns in school, racking up the classes and grabbing the best jobs. And then all of a sudden, they're acting underprivileged. Pretty suspicious, if you ask me.

[eilen]

63. Female, over 40 is invisible

in the job market. The expectation that a woman will bring home the bacon and then fry it up in the pan, nevermind never letting "him" forget he's the man sums up the gains that my mother's generation felt feminism delivered. We were expected to do 2 jobs to our husband's one, get paid less and have no consideration or legal protections when it came to adultery and divorce. My mother felt very betrayed by the alterations in the social contract that no fault divorce and feminist theory provided for her.

I don't feel any need to vote for HRC because she is a woman. In my mind, she didn't do this on her own, she married Bill Clinton and ran in NY as Hillary Clinton. I think if she had walked after the first public philandering exposure, and then worked on her own to be Senator (of any state) or any other elected position, I would have more respect for her and may feel differently. However, I don't feel that my life would be diminished in the event of widowhood or divorce. I know I will survive just fine and I don't think my mother felt that.

I graduated HS in 1983. At that time we were told we could "do it all". It was unrealistic. Today, my brilliant intelligent and engaging son is struggling in HS. It is so ridiculous. I almost want to pull him out and send him to community college but he is only 15 and I don't think I can enroll him there. They are really neglecting and marginalizing our boys, the value on one skill set (test taking) is so skewed and really turns the kids off of learning. OTOH, there are very few female engineering teams at the HS level-- it is apparent at rocket and robotics events.

That said, it is very hard to start anything new career wise when over 40 and female. There is a bias. I think that is why so many just start their own business, it's the only one that will hire them.

[Recursion]

64. To the extent that there's irony here...

...I think it's that if she had done that, she could have won the Senate seat Obama now has.

[Emillereid]

55. Beautifully said. Personally as one of the so-called invisible woman I am sick

of the charge of sexism I hear if one doesn't support or agree with Hillary. Hillary's problem is Hillary - not the fact that she's a woman.

BTW, I think that females do dominate the educational system too much - which probably has more to do with the relative low pay and the fact that teaching gives a woman a schedule that's allows them to better fit in motherhood.

[MichiganVote]

56. Depends on where you are I suppose, who you work or interact with....

I would have to say that poverty among women of any age continues to be ignored in the US. How would I know? I work in a field that puts me in close contact with them on a daily basis. Some might say, well that's true of men too and I would agree. The difference is that these are women who are often dependent on men who abuse them, denigrate them or abandon them and their offspring.

Their pain, their homelessness, seldom make the news and our society does scant to help them.

None of us are immune from skin color and its impact. That is true among whites as much as blacks. It is true among Hispanics. It is true everywhere. But when a black man was lynched, the event made the murdered victim visible and eventually over time, it made the event what it always was---a crime and socially unacceptable.

But when a white women is raped or a black woman is raped, its invisible. The act is invisible. No one much argues about whether lynching is a crime that happened. There's a tree, there's a rope, there's a victim. Not so with rape. There's a bed or a place, clothing or no clothing, motive or no motive...violence against women is still socially acceptable in too many segments of our society.

What is invisible to society is that everyday, every single day, women live with fears that men do not consider for themselves on a continual basis.

So sure, women work and they own homes and they choose whether to have a child or not. They can wear their clothing preference, worship at the site of their choice or drive a car.

So what?

They still can't live without fear.

[cooolandrew]

60. Exactly women in general who are not minorities are doing wonderful in society it seems to me...