This Tribune article explains some of my concern about the Obama "movement"

[Critters2]

Millenial movements rarely end well. And messianic figures make me uncomfortable.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-obama_millennial_thinkmar09,0,992716.story

[peace13]

1. Nice post.

Messianic figures? It's not the Obama people using that language.

[Critters2]

14. The ones I know personally do. He's going to save us. He's prophetic.

Scares me.

[buff2]

26. It scares me too

I can't stand to listen to his speeches.He talks like a baptist minister rather than a candidate running for President. Jim Jones. Kool-aid. Ugh..... :puke:

[newfie4]

160. exactly how I feel

[peace13]

32. Most Obama people that I come into contact with are

middle aged folks that have been around the block. As for me, at first I decided what I didn't want and then I looked hard at my choices. If you listen to Obama he says that he can not change course without all of us and that to me is what has been lacking in this country. I don't expect any change if I am not prepared to work for it. To me it sounds pretty realistic. Good luck with your girl. Peace, Kim

[2rth2pwr]

48. Of course not. Just watch some of their videos

where they chant "obama, ..obama, ..obama, ..obama" in hushed tones and they don't have to for anyone to see the zombie-like effect.

[RazBerryBeret]

148. And I REALLY liked it

when, after winning Ohio, Clinton chanted w/the audience in Columbus:
Yes We Will!
Yes We Will!
Yes We Will!
Yes We Will!
Yes We Will!

shivers....

[xchrom]

2. indeed.

[leftofcool]

3. political salvation usually does not end well

[Connie_Corleone]

4. Thank goodness Obama supporters don't think of him as a messiah.

He's popular and people like him. So what?

[Cogito ergo doleo]

33. Exactly. And he wants to take creative approaches to the

many problems facing us. He's willing to try, and that's good - but it's hardly a qualifier for sainthood. Just shows how long we've had to deal with a half-wit-F-Up in the White House, that when an intelligent and innovative candidate comes along, the rational enthusiasm over him is perceived as over the top. Sad.

[XemaSab]

5. Let's post the two theses of the article:

One, a millennial movement foresees an imminent social transformation in which the status quo is overturned and current injustices are repaired.

Two, the movement is led by a champion, a visionary hero whose message -- and more than that, whose mere presence -- propels people to a newfound faith, catapulting the culture into its longed-for future.

---------------

I think right now Democrats need a champion. We need to have some hope that the current regime will be overturned. I think Howard Dean, Al Gore, and several other politicians have been this champion since the rise of the BFEE. I'd even go so far as to argue that Clinton was this champion in 1992. I also think it's not just the BFEE but the capitulation of the democrats that has led to this metaphorical "spritual hunger."

Obama talks in big, visionary language, and I think that's what we need.

I don't think it's something to be afraid of, but something to embrace.

Yeah, it may not end well, and there are a variety of outcomes that could come to pass. Death and utter, crushing disappointment being two outcomes we've seen time and time again. But maybe we can go to a new place.

I'm 30, and I've had 3 years of Carter, 8 years of Clinton, and 20 years of the BFEE.

I'm looking forward to going somewhere new. :)

[XemaSab]

15. And to expand and go on a bit of a tangent:

I think we need not a new Kennedy or a new Clinton, but a new FDR.

Last week I went and toured Shasta Dam. It's a really BIG structure. I spent some time faffing around in the visitor center looking at pictures of the constuction, and I was SO impressed. It's like the space race, only it's a scene that was repeated time and time again during the latter years of the Great Depression.

The visitor corridor on the dam is about 350 feet long, and it's tiled with pretty green 6x6 tiles. Periodically there are some rippled tiles placed in the wall. How many tile setters did it take to make that corridor pretty for visitors? :shrug:

Sadly, in one area the tiles have fallen off, and the goddamn Bureau of Reclamation has taken a piece of cardboard and taped it over the missing tiles using black electrical tape. x(

But at any rate, FDR managed to talk the American people into going along with this crazy WPA scheme, and people went for it.

I think that's the kind of vision we need now, and I think Obama can get people behind him like that. :thumbsup:

[Critters2]

18. Obama is a free trader with a history of voting for business,

or avoiding important votes. He's never been a populist. The only two populists running aren't any more. There is no FDR-like figure left in the race.

[XemaSab]

31. I feel a lot of sympathy with your misgivings

If I had to apply an ideological litmus test to Obama I'll admit he'd fall short. But I've never seen a politician that I agreed with 100%. Never.

I think right now the HMS America is heading towards the waterfall, and I think all hands need to get on deck to prevent us from going over. I think Obama might be FDR-like in his ability to get us ALL working together for the common good.

I just don't see that in either of the other two candidates (who fail the ideological litmus test with even LOWER grades. :P )

[Critters2]

36. Nope, not in any of the remaining candidates.

The media weren't likely to crown such a candidate. And they still aren't.

[RaleighNCDUer]

70. You might do to remember that FDR

was not an FDR figure, either. He was a VERY priviledged white guy who was anything BUT a populist - but he saw what needed to be done to reclaim democracy when it was threatened by fascism on one side and communism on the other -- and that was INTERNAL threats, not just the other world powers.

I think Obama has the capability of looking outside the box for solutions. He certainly indicated it when he opposed IWR, at a time when 70% of the public didn't give a fuck WHO we hit, just so long as we hit SOMEBODY.

[DoBotherMe]

80. He's not rich enough to be an FDR or Edwards type populist

nor does he strike me as the Kucinich type populist who shuns personal enrichment from his political power. Why does Obama want to be president?

[RaleighNCDUer]

121. Maybe because he thinks he can do some good? nt

[DoBotherMe]

153. I hope you are right and he is incorruptible

that alone will restore hope for many of us. D ; )

[Critters2]

85. It was easy for a state legislator to oppose IWR. He wasn't voting on it, after all. nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

119. With the public being pro-war?

He could have been committing political suicide. That was, after all, Hillary's excuse - she wanted to protect her future WH run by showing she could be tough on America's enemies. If the public reacted badly to his opposing the war, he'd have lost his senate race and wound up doing community work again. But he knew what was right, and the the country would come around to his position - that's called being a leader.

[TheDoorbellRang]

67. Exactly. That's how I and many others see him

as someone with FDR potential. I've looked at his history, and the thing that strikes me over and over is his ability to get disparate people to work together for the common good -- a rare trait in this day and age. The ideas he has for bringing more transparency to the decision making in DC is also excellent. FDR kept people uplifted thru some pretty tough times with his fireside chats; I've a feeling we're going to need some inspiration to help us along thru the coming years. FDR was able to get some pretty good stuff accomplished, too. And from what I've seen of Obama, he's got the same potential. I am more than willing to take a chance on someone I see with great potentials. Doesn't mean I'm expecting miracles.

[movonne]

6. Have you seen the hillary people here lately??? talk about messianic

figures...

[Not the Only One]

7. More mainstream marginalizing of Barack Obama

Whoopity-do.

We are not members of Heaven's Gate waiting for the Hale-Bopp comet.

We are just people tired of how DC operates. If there's no way to fix DC, as cynics suggest, just nuke the place from orbit and start over. Obama never says that changing DC will be easy. He says the opposite, that it is very hard.

Obama has conducted himself honorably so far. He has not built his campaign on a foundation of special interests. He has gotten the support of over a million regular Americans.

Is hope a bad word? Is change a bad word? Is it "sinful" to believe in a better tomorrow? Change is improbable, but Obama being where he is today is just as improbable.

[buff2]

45. He stole that line about "hope" from Bill Clinton

That's what he ran on. '"I BELIEVE IN A PLACE CALLED HOPE". The Clinton haters forget that,don't they? :grr:

[ieoeja]

72. We remember the promise. And the betrayal of that hope.

Hence, the "hate". Or as I prefer to call it, the "never again will I trust the Clintons".

[elehhhhna]

74. Bill trademarked the word "hope"? Doubtful. Try harder.

[dansolo]

84. No, it's the Obama haters who forget that.

How could Bill Clinton run on hope 16 years ago, and then proceed to piss on the hopes of the next generation? Why is hope such a bad thing now, when it is what propelled Bill (and Hillary) into the White House?

[Melinda]

101. And Clinton stole* the use of "Hope" from Abe Lincoln

Ironically, it was this very speech (given upon the surrender of Confederate Army) that incensed Wilkes-Booth leading to the murder of President Lincoln. The central thesis, was hope:

We meet this evening, not in sorrow, but in gladness of heart. The evacuation of Petersburg and Richmond, and the surrender of the principal insurgent army, give hope of a righteous and speedy peace whose joyous expression can not be restrained.

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/last.htm

*Stealing a word is nonsensical; the above is posted to show the ridiculousness of the assertion, period.

[bunnies]

8. Anyone who thinks Obama is a "messianic figure"

Needs their head examined. That includes the loon who wrote the article as well as the Clintonists who keep pushing this bullshit.

[redqueen]

24. Absolutely correct.

It ain't his supporters that started the 'messianic' crap.

[bunnies]

40. Exactly. They are the ones who seem to view Obama in a holy light...

And they waste all this energy trying to force their twisted logic onto us. I think it says a lot more about the psyche of Clintonists that they're so threatened by the man that they have to resort to such pathetic tactics. These people are sick.

[Critters2]

43. I guess we didn't attend the same Obama rallies in Iowa.

It was downright creepy.

"Hello, believers!" :puke:

[bunnies]

55. Did people fall on their knees in worship?

Please. If Hillary had such inspired supporters you'd be gushing over the site of it. Jealousy is an ugly state of mind.

[Critters2]

57. Again, not a Clinton supporter. Still considerng voting for Edwards

as a write-in. Voted for him in the primary.

And yeah, I saw two young women on their knees. It's just that scary.

[buff2]

58. Why the hell do people pass out at his rallies?

It makes no sense. He's not Elvis,so why the drooling and fainting? :puke:

[jbnow]

78. They've been showing Hillary fainters on CNN,

some at Obama's, one at Bills and 1 at Gov. Arnold.

If you're actually asking and not just insulting Obama (your puking icon makes me doubt it) a doctor was talking about how people sometimes stood for hours to get in and discussed why suggestions candidates gave were good. Water helps rehydrate them, then juice ups blood sugar. Fanning with a sign, Hillary's suggestion, improved air circulation in a stuffy place. Arnold told people not to stand with legs straight, bend at knees, shift legs sometimes and that was right because it improves blood circulation.

It's more common at Obama's big rallies not out of idolizing but because of the very long lines and people often arrive early for a good place. They just stand longer. Crowded places get too warm and stuffy and people go too long without fluid.

[bunnies]

107. Exactly. Thank you. nt

[2rth2pwr]

68. Some fainted at the mere sight of their beloved.

When did you come to Obama?

[bunnies]

73. Or it could be that it gets REALLY frigging hot at those rallies.

It was about 95 degrees at the ones I went too. People fanning themselves all over the place. The lady next to me got dizzy and needed a wet cloth. And she was undecided. You dont want to hear that though.

[2rth2pwr]

86. They are not doing that at other candidates events

Obama basic training
Volunteers told to share personal conversion stories with voters - not policy views.
By John Hill
http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/649427.html


In a storefront on Q Street in Sacramento, Kim Mack told a crowd that spilled out onto the sidewalk how she came to back Barack Obama. With a son serving in the Iraq war, which she opposed, Mack was looking for a like-minded presidential candidate. She was impressed by the Illinois senator's books. But the clincher came on March 17, when she met the Democratic contender face to face. She describes how he lit up the room with his wide smile, shook her hand and thanked her for volunteering.

"He looked at me, and the look in his eyes was worth 1,000 words," said Mack, now a regional field organizer. Obama hugged her and whispered something in her ear – she was so thrilled she doesn't remember what it was.

Then Mack brought home the point of her story for the crowd of 100 or so eager volunteers, sipping coffee and watching a PowerPoint presentation in the Obama campaign office on a recent Saturday.

"Did that make more impact on you than if I had talked about his health care plan or his stance on the environment?" she asked.

On the verge of a hectic few weeks leading to Super Tuesday, the crucial Feb. 5 multistate primary including California's, Mack wanted to drill home one of the campaign's key strategies: telling potential voters personal stories of political conversion. She urged volunteers to hone their own stories of how they came to Obama – something they could compress into 30 seconds on the phone.

"Work on that, refine that, say it in the mirror," she said. "Get it down."...

[bunnies]

99. Did you *not* see the video of that kid passing out behind Bill Clinton?

:shrug:

[2rth2pwr]

113. one other in all the other campaigns Dem and Repug vs all those that were taken out on

stretchers at Obama Revivals?

[bunnies]

124. Its not a "revival"

Thats ridiculous. And its not one other in all campaigns. What about that kid that passed out when Arnie was speaking? No one passed out when I saw him.

[Critters2]

88. The won I went to was in a sale barn in Iowa in January.

It was a lot of things--but hot wasn't one of 'em.

[bunnies]

102. ok. So what was so creepy about the rally?

Serious question.

[Critters2]

105. Weeping. Lots of weeping. And chanting.

And all in response to a speech which offered no policies.

[bunnies]

120. chanting? as in O-ba-ma ??

Because they do that at Clinton rallies too.

And ok... there was some weeping at the rallies I went to as well, but you cant deny that he inspires and touches people on a personal level. Policies dont inspire people. Democrats are emotional voters. And that he's found a way to tap into peoples emotions is not a bad thing imho.

Hillary cant build a lasting Dem majority that transcends generations. Obama can, and IS. I think he's great for the party.

[buff2]

9. It scares the living hell out of me

I have the same "gut" feeling about Obama that I had when Bu$h was running. I just KNEW we would be in a whole lot of trouble with the decisions that idiot would make. I was right. I feel I am right about this one too except Obama is not an idiot. He is very clever in how he is moving the masses to him. I don't trust this whole "Christian" concept he is throwing out.It's a facade to get votes. Whenever a candidate mixes God and politics it only spells disaster and makes me want to run as fast as I can go in the opposite direction. Just look at bu$h. :scared:

[DearAbby]

17. Jesus, that is a stretch comparing Obama to Bush.

Please elaborate the similarities.

I don't trust this whole "Christian" concept he is throwing out. It's a facade to get votes. I hope this is sarcasm. You think Obama is really a radical muslim, waiting to gain the highest office to hand this country over to radical muslim terrorists?

Wait wait, you actually believe Obama is the anti-christ?

Please elaborate.

[BlackVelvet04]

25. also from the article.....

But there's one more trait that millennial movements share: the certainty -- at least so far -- of disappointment.

[Drachasor]

60. Going with your gut?

Ehh, I prefer to stick with facts. Obama has a better platform and record for open government, and wants the people more directly involved in the government. Those things are huge and good and something Hillary isn't bringing to the table.

Do some people get overly excited? Sure, but Obama is still the better candidate.

[Critters2]

62. What record? nt

[Drachasor]

157. For Open Government or in general?

He started and helped pass the most significant ethics reform since Watergate. Is that not significant?

His senate record is pretty good actually, and compares favorable to Clinton's, imho. If you want to get into a debate on it, then I am willing to do that (I'll even start, but I'll expect you to be able to talk about Clinton's Senate record too).

[RaleighNCDUer]

71. Fuck off.

There is NO comparison between Obama and Bush.

OTOH, Clinton and Bushes have been running the country for the past 28 years.

[rodeodance]

90. here is an interesting article-related. The 'gut' is a good barometer lots of times:-)

Forum Name General Discussion: Primaries
Topic subject Obama's first coming
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4540643#4540643
4540643, Obama's first coming
Posted by rodeodance on Mon Feb-11-08 04:55 PM




I think this Oz author raises some valid questions that we should all critically think about.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23182456-28737,00.html

Obama's first coming

Washington correspondent Geoff Elliott | February 09, 2008

IT was early 1994 when Nelson Mandela gave a speech in a slum outside Cape Town and spoke in grand terms of a new beginning and how when he was elected president every household would have a washing machine.

People took him literally. A few months later he became South Africa's first black president. That's when clerks in department stores in Cape Town had to turn people away demanding their free washer and dryer.
.......
How does a cult figure, in the eyes of some something akin to a messiah, make the transition to a political frontrunner - president even - where disappointment will soon crush what seemed to be a journey to a promised land?
Looking into the faces of a more than 16,000-strong crowd in a basketball stadium in Hartford, Connecticut this week, the Mandela magic I'd seen before was there too. Black and white, and the youth; they appeared in a state close to rapture watching Obama speak. Here and there one could see women crying and the some men wiping away tears too.
.......
In the US today there are echoes of that Rainbow Revolution. Through the media and on the streets people are getting a bit giddy over Obama. In this man they are projecting a new course - one that he says he will lead - where the US buries the culture wars, charts a new course in bipartisan politics and heralds a new dawn for America. ......
........
And therein lays the danger for Obama. The Obama shuttle has made it into orbit but at some point he's going to have to land this thing back on Earth.
.........
But the danger remains for Obama in managing the cult-like fervour. Obviously, he's no messiah and lofty expectations of his supporters is something that Obama is also acutely aware of. In stockmarket parlance, Obama's share price is soaring on expected future earnings. Clinton, 20 years in the public eye, is like the industrial conglomerate: steady share price and reliable dividends. Think of Obama as Google and Clinton as General Electric.
.............
"We can do this," he told ecstatic supporters on Tuesday night. "It will not be easy. It will require struggle and sacrifice. There will setbacks and we will make mistakes."
But then Obama, in the next sentence, in attempt to appeal to more voters out there, didn't even mention the Democratic Party but instead his "movement" saying: "I want to speak directly to all those Americans who have yet to join this movement but still hunger for change: we need you. We need you to stand with us, and work with us, and help us prove that together, ordinary people can still do extraordinary things".
.........
In his Super Tuesday speech Obama said "we are the ones we've been waiting for", attempting to make the case the time was now to get some "change" in Washington: a post-partisan world where politicians reach across the aisle for the common good. "This time can be different because this campaign for the presidency of the United States of America is different," he said. "It's different not because of me. It's different because of you."
.......
"Rather than focusing on any specific issue or cause - other than an amorphous desire for change - the message is becoming dangerously self-referential. The Obama campaign all too often is about how wonderful the Obama campaign is."
I hear that too in the voices of Obama's staff constantly, themselves referring to this "cult of Obama".
"Even if he doesn't go all the way, and I'm not being defeatist, I'm so thrilled to be a part of this and see the size of the crowds turning out," one staffer tells me.
.........
. He may well build an unstoppable momentum. And then the giddiness might evaporate and be replaced with something else. In marketing they call it post-purchase disappointment. If he gets the Democratic Party's nomination another test begins anew: how to turn the narrative which is all about striving for what is possible, to one where people are suddenly asking how are you actually going to do it?

[grantcart]

10. Did you read the article? It clearly outlines why it is not a millenial movement

Further, those emboldened by the hope of the millennial vision are usually the hopeless, the dispossessed and the powerless. But Obama's network of supporters, while admirably diverse, is far from disenfranchised. He is backed overwhelmingly by the college-educated, and he counts many of the country's wealthiest power brokers as valued supporters.

Seldom have so many with so much yearned so fervently for a change so near.

[melody]

11. "Radicals, Rebels, Revolutionaries" - a pro-Royalist sermon given in 1771

Such sermons said a lot of the same things about our founding fathers -- even calling them
blasphemers as if they were starting a new religion.

Sorry, I'm far less comfortable in staying with the same abusive bastards who've been guarding
us all along. I'm for Obama and I don't see him as anything more than a new chance when the
only other choices are 1) more of the same and 2) unthinkable.

[Critters2]

12. But he hasn't stood up to those abusers. Indeed, he promises to reach out to them.

I fear he's promising change, but really going to give us more of the same. I see no reason not to think so. All his flowery rhetoric doesn't mean anything without a record to support it. But it gets his followers "fired up".

[melody]

13. It's a question of degree -- we only have two choices now other than McCain

Worse and worser.

Believe me, I'd LOVE to put John Edwards at the top of the ticket ... I worked very hard for him ...
but it's not the hand we have been dealt.

[Critters2]

16. But all this religious-like zeal for "worse"? Have people lost their minds? nt

[melody]

19. What religious like zeal? I think we've had poor choices so long we don't recognize enthusiasm

I'd be the very first person to slam the brakes in dealing with religious veneration of any kind.
Young people are enthusiastic. That's what they're supposed to be. A lot of Obama's people are younger.
I've seen a lot of Hillary-or-the-highway crap on DU, too.

We have to stop judging the nominee by their supporters.

[buff2]

20. He thinks the Senate and Congress will swoon all over him

and he will get everything he wants.:rofl: This guy has a lot to learn. It shows he has NO EXPERIENCE.If he wins,which I don't think he will,he is in for a real wake-up call. The fawning all over him out here will be gone if he takes the WH. There, he will have to deal with real BIG problems and I don't think he is capable enough to do it.

[BlackVelvet04]

21. these 3 paragraphs pretty much sum it up...

In public appearances, he often greets the assembled throngs with, "Hello, believers." And in brochures sent to South Carolina voters before that state's January primary, Obama branded himself a "committed Christian" and confided, with explicit religious symbolism, that he was "called to bring change."



But the Obama campaign is a new expression of an age-old millennial vision because it's believed that the "Change" preached by the candidate has the potential to transform American life -- completely, and soon.



To many Obama "believers," Bush's sense of mission -- his belief that he was called, even divinely chosen, to lead the country through its time of tribulations -- was an odious commingling of church and state. Obama's own sense of calling, in contrast, has galvanized his followers, confirming the urgent need for his leadership and their participation.

[oasis]

22. The starry-eyed dreamers are in for a rude awakening. Afterwards, their lingering

"period of denial" is going to be hard for the rest of us to stomach.:puke:

[MadBadger]

23. Embrace my lord and savior

[Critters2]

28. Maybe funny to you, but I know people--here in the Obamite kingdom of Illinois--

who actually talk this way. :puke:

[murielm99]

52. Not only that,

in the Obamite kingdom of Illinois, they turn on anyone with questions and criticisms. The anger can be quite scary.

Try going to an Obama event as a mere observer. Look at the people. Listen to his cadence as he speaks. There are too many similarities to revival meetings for my taste.

[Critters2]

54. The weeping. Don't forget the weeping.

:scared:

[buff2]

63. And the drooling and fainting

He's just another lying crooked politician....not Elvis. :puke:

[Recursion]

27. The only "messiah" talk I've heard is from people who don't like him

The fact that people not excited about Obama are skeptical of enthusiasm about him doesn't really worry me.

[Critters2]

30. Yeah, pay not attention to the people weeping at his campaign rallies.

Probably just allergies.

[Recursion]

39. I've cried at a rally

That doesn't mean I think the guy is the messiah. It means I'm sentimental. I've cried at the olympics, too.

[Avalux]

29. What a load of crap. If Obama is messianic, why are most of his supporters atheists?

It makes no sense to claim he's some sort of religious figure then look at the voter demographics.

I don't expect him to take care of me and make it all better. I expect him to engage and include the American people so we can all work on our problems together.

We had George Bush who pretends to be our Daddy and talk down to us; now we have Hillary who claims she can be our Mommy and put bandaids on all our boo boos.

People need to become empowered.

[Critters2]

34. Most of his supporters, like most of the US population, are Christian.

But even if this were not so, there is a psychological need for messiah figures that is deep in the human psyche, even for atheists (read Girard--these things rarely end well). Because he's a political figure, and not explicitly a religious one, he can safely meet this need for them.

[peace13]

38. Oh god don't let that cat out of the bag!!

I really didn't know that but it does hold pretty much true in this house. Peace, Kim

[Critters2]

49. It's not true.

Everything you read on the internets is not true.

[peace13]

158. I was joking!

Really, I think that Obama attracts all kinds of folks but for the most part thinkers! Didn't mean to upset you. I get a kick out of these folks that say Obama supporters are hypnotized by the Baptist preacher in Obama. You see I am the last person to go to church. I'm not Christian I just act like one is supposed to. Peace, Kim

[Avalux]

50. What do you mean the cat out of the bag?

I'd like you to expound a bit. It's a fundamental difference in Obama's message. Most politicians are the all-powerful fixers and it's easy for us to give them that power and have huge expectations from them.

Obama is different. He expects us to be involved and I hope to god (my god) that he lives up to what he says. We are more powerful as a people if we take part in the decisons made on our behalf and it's about time.

[peace13]

161. I saw Obama in Columbus Ohio and that was my favorite part.

When he said that he needs our help to get this done. The government response to 911 was to paralyze all Americans with fear. We need nothing more than to wake up from the trance of deceit. Peace, Kim

[murielm99]

44. Prove that most of his supporters are atheists.

If that were true, the opposition would be using it against him.

[Critters2]

47. Yeah. It's a ridiculous claim. nt

[Avalux]

51. Exit polling I've seen after primaries.

It's something the MSM likes to throw out there.

[Critters2]

53. Link, please? nt

[rodeodance]

65. I have read that also---altough i do not recall 'most" -sorry no link

[Critters2]

118. If you read it, there should be a link. nt

[Avalux]

66. I don't have a link; reported on MSNBC and CNN. n/t

[Critters2]

89. Then there'd be a link. 'Nuff said. nt

[Avalux]

95. Um; I didn't post it as a negative anyway. Go find the link yourself. n/t

[Critters2]

98. "Hope. ""Change. " "Look it up yourself." The full litany of Obama chants. nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

77. i wouldn't say most of his supporters are atheists -

but the argument could be made that he draws more atheists than do any of the other candidates.

We're still outnumbered, but not shut out.

[brentspeak]

83. Uh, yeah, sure

:eyes:

[redqueen]

35. I based my support on his votes & non-DLC status. (nt)

[Critters2]

41. A lot of the earlier candidates were further from the DLC.

He's still a centrist free trader. That he doesn't pay dues to the DLC isn't enough to impress me.

[redqueen]

56. Yeah, this I know. I was for Kucinich till Jan 8, then Edwards

till weeks after he dropped out.

As for his non-DLCness... what's your alternative? An ACTUAL DLCer? You prefer that?

[Critters2]

59. I prefer a populist. nt

[redqueen]

64. So you're voting for... McCain? Clinton? Who?

I prefer a populist too... sadly, there ain't a viable one.

[Critters2]

82. No, because we're left with the media's choices.

Still not sure what I'll do in November. Probably hold my nose and vote for the nominee, but might write-in JRE.

[NastyRiffraff]

37. Well, I AM comparing Obama to Bush

Not in everything; not even in most things. But as far as the quasi-Messianic figure he presents (whether he calls it that or not), they're very similar. "Hello, Believers," Obama says to the crowd. He's said it more than once. Maybe he didn't start out thinking of himself as some sort of savior (rather than a politician), but it seems he's believing his own hype.

There's more evidence: the preacher-like cadence in his speeches, the revival atmosphere of his appearances. In some cases the responses are more like Beatlemania than religious ecstasy, but the principle is he same: that people lose the capacity for critical thought while under the "spell" of the quasi-savior.

[Beacool]

42. Thanks for posting this!!!!

So true:

In Obama's America, the country -- like the candidate -- stands for possibility. It is a symbol of the future.

But there's one more trait that millennial movements share: the certainty -- at least so far -- of disappointment.

Maybe the predicted date for the savior's arrival passes without a sighting. Perhaps the political hero compromises with opponents (or succumbs to the old political order). All millennial believers -- religious faithful and political supporters alike -- inevitably grapple with the realization that what was hoped for and what eventually happens are not, in the end, one and the same.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RaleighNCDUer]

61. Tom Levinson is an ass. nt

[rodeodance]

69. Here is a similar article:*****

Forum Name General Discussion: Primaries
Topic subject Obama's first coming
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4540643#4540643
4540643, Obama's first coming
Posted by rodeodance on Mon Feb-11-08 04:55 PM




I think this Oz author raises some valid questions that we should all critically think about.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23182456-28737,00.html

Obama's first coming

Washington correspondent Geoff Elliott | February 09, 2008

IT was early 1994 when Nelson Mandela gave a speech in a slum outside Cape Town and spoke in grand terms of a new beginning and how when he was elected president every household would have a washing machine.

People took him literally. A few months later he became South Africa's first black president. That's when clerks in department stores in Cape Town had to turn people away demanding their free washer and dryer.
.......
How does a cult figure, in the eyes of some something akin to a messiah, make the transition to a political frontrunner - president even - where disappointment will soon crush what seemed to be a journey to a promised land?
Looking into the faces of a more than 16,000-strong crowd in a basketball stadium in Hartford, Connecticut this week, the Mandela magic I'd seen before was there too. Black and white, and the youth; they appeared in a state close to rapture watching Obama speak. Here and there one could see women crying and the some men wiping away tears too.
.......
In the US today there are echoes of that Rainbow Revolution. Through the media and on the streets people are getting a bit giddy over Obama. In this man they are projecting a new course - one that he says he will lead - where the US buries the culture wars, charts a new course in bipartisan politics and heralds a new dawn for America. ......
........
And therein lays the danger for Obama. The Obama shuttle has made it into orbit but at some point he's going to have to land this thing back on Earth.
.........
But the danger remains for Obama in managing the cult-like fervour. Obviously, he's no messiah and lofty expectations of his supporters is something that Obama is also acutely aware of. In stockmarket parlance, Obama's share price is soaring on expected future earnings. Clinton, 20 years in the public eye, is like the industrial conglomerate: steady share price and reliable dividends. Think of Obama as Google and Clinton as General Electric.
.............
"We can do this," he told ecstatic supporters on Tuesday night. "It will not be easy. It will require struggle and sacrifice. There will setbacks and we will make mistakes."
But then Obama, in the next sentence, in attempt to appeal to more voters out there, didn't even mention the Democratic Party but instead his "movement" saying: "I want to speak directly to all those Americans who have yet to join this movement but still hunger for change: we need you. We need you to stand with us, and work with us, and help us prove that together, ordinary people can still do extraordinary things".
.........
In his Super Tuesday speech Obama said "we are the ones we've been waiting for", attempting to make the case the time was now to get some "change" in Washington: a post-partisan world where politicians reach across the aisle for the common good. "This time can be different because this campaign for the presidency of the United States of America is different," he said. "It's different not because of me. It's different because of you."
.......
"Rather than focusing on any specific issue or cause - other than an amorphous desire for change - the message is becoming dangerously self-referential. The Obama campaign all too often is about how wonderful the Obama campaign is."
I hear that too in the voices of Obama's staff constantly, themselves referring to this "cult of Obama".
"Even if he doesn't go all the way, and I'm not being defeatist, I'm so thrilled to be a part of this and see the size of the crowds turning out," one staffer tells me.
.........
. He may well build an unstoppable momentum. And then the giddiness might evaporate and be replaced with something else. In marketing they call it post-purchase disappointment. If he gets the Democratic Party's nomination another test begins anew: how to turn the narrative which is all about striving for what is possible, to one where people are suddenly asking how are you actually going to do it?

[Critters2]

135. EXactly. Thank you, and here's my concern:

"And then the giddiness might evaporate and be replaced with something else. In marketing they call it post-purchase disappointment."

[FedoraLV]

75. Put down your bitterness

and cynicism: we need your talents. Join the majority in this nation who want to work together to fix the problems besetting us all.

Look at how ordinary people tried to help during Katrina ... but it would have helped if we'd had a competent leader and administrator at the federal level. Think of how much more successful the ordinary volunteers would have been.

Listen to Obama all the way through: he isn't the candidate who says "Elect me and I'll do ____." He is saying "Together, we will do ____." Keeping with the OP's meme shows you're not paying attention to what Obama actually says -- and it will never stick with anyone who has listened Obama all the way through ... because Obama isn't about 'me' -- he's speaking to all of us.

Listen: think about what you could be doing, right now, to make this country better. There is no need to wait until January of next year.

-FedoraLV

[Critters2]

91. I did what I could to make this country better. I voted for Edwards.

The media decided my vote needn't count.

[damntexdem]

76. It's not a millenial movement, it's charisma.

And the problem with charisma is that the charismatic figure cannot be replaced with one equally as charismatic. That is no problem in this case -- would only be 8 years from now.

Hey, but by then, won't Hillary be so much more experienced?

[Radical Activist]

79. Your "concern" about having a winning candidate who inspires people

is duly noted.

[cali]

81. You know jackshit, dear. This is my field. I have a Masters in Millennial studies

I doubt like hell you do. If you want a primer on the subject, start with Cohn's "In Search of the Millennium".

Obama is not remotely a messianic figure by any of the criteria used for millennial movements. And his campaign is not even close to a millennial movement.

You really shouldn't talk about a subject you're so completely ignorant about. You look like a fool. You don't even know how to spell the word. Your post is pathetic.

[Johnny__Motown]

87. You should make a separate thread to refute this. your little post way down here is getting lost

[cali]

92. I just might do that.

I've had it with this kind of hyperbole and ignorance.

[Faygo Kid]

97. Not by a long shot, pal.

We back the Tigers, but that's it, buddy.

I'm with Cali on this one.

[redqueen]

93. To be fair, are those the poster's words, or are they from the author of that linked piece?

I found it rather odd that something that started after the millennium did could be considered 'millennial', but what do I know.

[cali]

104. Millennial movements

are a distinct part of eschatology. They were rife during the middle ages in Europe, but have appeared in every age. At one time, the term millenarianism was applied only to Christian movements, but in recent years it's been used as a broader designation of certain religious movements. It has nothing to do with any particular year, but with the 1000 years that Christ will supposedly reign on earth.

Oh, and the OP endorsed the idiot article.

[redqueen]

110. Yes but still...

your 'you don't know jack shit' and 'such and such makes you look stupid' or whatever you said... that could all be said in a much more civil manner. 'I don't think you or the author understands such and such' for example...

Just sayin.

[Critters2]

112. True believers let go of civility when their messiah is challenged.

A trait of these movements.

[redqueen]

122. Come on... if that's your gauge, then lots of Clintons supporters around here are 'true believers'

and view her as a 'messiah'.

[Critters2]

96. Another gracious response from an Obama supporter.

I have an MDiv from an accredited seminary (oldest Protestant graduate school of theology in the US), but I didn't claim to be an expert. I quoted an article from a newspaper. I did nothing to warrant the vitriol in your response. But that is what happens when one challenges the faith of a true believer.

Thanks for making my point for me. And moving me even further from supporting St. Barack.

[Faygo Kid]

106. You never supported Barack, so cut the crap

All I have is a JD, so all I can do is cut through your BS.

Your accusation against Obama supporters as being cultists has been beaten to death around here, and it's bullshit. Period.

You posted specifically to get vitriol. You've achieved your goal. Spare us the smugness, at least.

[Critters2]

109. This is how you win supporters?

I have no dog in this fight (thanks to the media, who crowned your candidate and ignored mine).

But the vitriol from the believers is very interesting to me. I didn't write the article.

[cali]

114. You endorsed it. Don't deny it. You said it explained how you felt

or words to that effect. And let me say, that I think the true believers were really the supporters of St. Johny of the Hedge Fund, a candidate I never liked and who I saw as completely opportunistic even for a politician.

[Critters2]

117. All this anger over one little newspaper article?

Very telling.

[cali]

126. nope. Over the 1,000th or so posting of the same bullshit

though I must admit, the Millenarian angle is a new twist- and even more off base.

[Critters2]

129. If there have been 1000 posts about it, maybe there's something to it.

Something your candidate's campaign ought to look at. Shouting people down won't make the concerns go away.

The Obama vitriol is really ugly. And doesn't help the campaign.

[cali]

136. That's not logic. There have been a thousand posts claiming

that Hillary is a war monger. That's not true. There is plenty of vitriol on all sides, always has been. No group took criticism worse than Edwardians, for instance. And I'm not shouting anyone down. We're having an exchange right here. Are there some people who are attracted to Obama's campaign in a fervent way? Sure. Does that make it a cult or a millenarian movement? No. There's really no evidence of that at all. And this really is something I know a little about. Obama in no way acts like a cult leader. And most of his supporters certainly don't either. My 87 year old mother, 4 time delegate to dem conventions would certainly be surprised to hear that she's a member of a cult or millenarian movement. So would most of the level headed middle aged people I know who support him.

[Critters2]

131. Never denied it.

You're mean-spirited and vicious. Don't deny it.

And your degree in Millenialism :eyes: doesn't give you the right to be uncivil.

[Faygo Kid]

123. Win your support? Impossible. Kiss parts of your anatomy? Ain't gonna happen.

"No dog in this fight?" Bull.

You didn't "write the article?" No, all you did was post it.

I respect Hillary supporters who are open and honest about their support of their candidate. I respect those who do not back Barack for reasons of policy, experience and the like, and can post an honest opinion about it.

But I despise the kind of disingenuous posts from the likes of you who wouldn't know an honest and straightforward statement if it smacked them in the face.

You think you get away with this kind of disingenuous crap? You're only fooling yourself. Take an honest stand, and cut the crap.

[Critters2]

127. Here's my honest stand.

I supported Edwards in the primaries, and have no favorite in the current race. I do find the behavior of Obama supporters disconcerting, in that one is simply NOT allowed to criticize him without receiving the most vicious vitriol in return. I have a lot of concerns about an Obama candidacy. I have the right to voice them. But when I do, I am attacked by people who "despise" me and make ridiculous and hateful accusations.

And every time it happens, I move further from Obama.

There's an old saying--"You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".

Try persuading me to your candidate. Rather than chasing me away.

[Faygo Kid]

133. Nope. Although I respect your ratcheting down the volume.

I supported Edwards, too, and with more money than I could afford. I will ratchet it down a notch, too, and just say that I didn't expect anyone else to "convince" me to support John Edwards any more than I expected anyone to have to "convince" me to support Barack Obama when John withdrew.

You are obviously bright enough to make up your own mind, and I suspect that is exactly what you will do, absent vitriol from any side. But it's not up to me to persuade you. Make up your own mind, but don't accuse those of us who have decided to support him of things you would not like to be accused of yourself. Your flies and vinegar analogy is excellent.

But it goes both ways.

[redqueen]

137. Very well said! I also supported Edwards

with more than I could afford.

And I didn't 'depend' on anyone to educate me or sway me to either of the two front-runners. Nor did I use any supporters' behavior as any sort of criterion whatsoever.

[Faygo Kid]

154. Thanks. A voice of sanity.

I really tire of these posters who say they expect me to persuade them, when it is abundantly clear that they have made up their minds - either way - and are simply engaging in gamesmanship.

We would do a lot better here if we cut the crap and backed our candidates assertively and in a straightforward fashion instead of this "gee whiz, I really have some concerns . . ." BS.

[Critters2]

159. I no longer have a candidate

because I have concerns about globalist centrists.

[cali]

111. You endorsed the article. In a most unpleasant waY.

And sorry, dear, but I'm not a true believer. I see Obama as flawed candidate and disagree with him on quite a few issues. So your conclusion is wrong. And as most people around here know, I'm snarky period. I'm snarky to Obama supporters who post shit about Hillary, and I'm snarky to Hillary supporters who post shit about Obama.

And anyone who lets posters on an internet political board influence how they feel about a candidate is a fool.

[Critters2]

115. "A most unpleasant way"?

I have concerns about this candidate. My Sunday paper had an article that expressed similar concerns. That's all my OP said.

Your anger is out of proportion to the circumstances.

[cali]

125. No it's not. Call it the straw that broke the camel's

back. People have been posting the cult shit here about Obama and people who support his candidacy for weeks. It's patently absurd. It's no truer than saying that Hillary is a republican war monger. I've had it with the cult meme.

[Critters2]

130. Ask yourself why it keeps reappearing.

Telling people to stop posting something won't make them stop thinking it.

[cali]

138. because it's a convenient and cheap insult

I don't have anything but scorn for people who actually have talked themselves into believing it. It's ridiculous. Obama doesn't present himself as a savior. He doesn't even break out of conventional politics in most ways, and most of his supporters are not fainting or speaking of him as someone who's going to save the world.

[Critters2]

141. "Hi, believers!"

I've noted your scorn. But you've chosen not to see what others do.

[madfloridian]

94. My concern about the Clinton "movement" is that too many remember the blow job.

Especially where I live with all the Southern Baptists. They have never forgiven him for that.

[rodeodance]

100. Good post thanks

[rodeodance]

103. REC

[Faygo Kid]

108. Posting to yourself again?

Glory days.

[Adelante]

116. We won't hurt you

Don't be askeered :scared:

[JoFerret]

128. narrow minded, thin skinned and messianic

a very creepy combination.
And funnily enough - Obama himself seems fine.
But why is he engendering this creepiness in a minority of his followers and supporters?

[Critters2]

134. Seems fine--"Hi, believers" seems fine? nt

[DemGa]

132. Objectively, there is something strange about it (as objective as I can be)

Not trying to be snippy either. Just my true feelings that it is strange, right down to that creepy looking logo with the sun rising -- it somehow looks ornate and yet hollow.

And the vicious attacks that are directly counter to the so called "hope and change." There is much that is opposite here. My feeling is, It cannot end well.

[Critters2]

139. I've been reading a lot of the writing of anthropologist Rene Girard

who writes about scapegoating and sacrifice. He's done a lot of study of the role of messianic figures and the disappointment they ultimately engender in their followers. Any leader would do well to keep the volume at a reasonable level. It's not healthy to lead people from too emotional a place. The higher you get people's expectations, the further they have to fall.

This kind of campaigning strikes me as unwise.

[redqueen]

143. So... y'all are going on your 'gut feelings' on this?

And 'creepiness'? And logos?

Not votes, or issues... or anything like that?

[Critters2]

149. What votes?

If we went by votes, well, that would present another set of problems.

[redqueen]

150. At least it would be about something related to politics.

Instead of BS.


Did you happen to notice any Clinton supporters saying ugly mean nasty hurtful things about Obama's supporters, here in this very thread? Or are you only seeing what you want to?

[Critters2]

151. I've seen it from both sides.

But only one side has claimed to be above it, while engaging in it. Hllary's never been shy about naming her aggressive style. Obama has claimed to be a new kind of politician. He set the expectations. So, I expect him to live up to them. And his followers, too.

[redqueen]

152. Utterly ridiculous.

Good luck picking a candidate.

[HeraldSquare212]

140. That's just a way to attack a political movement without responding to the substance of it.

Every politician who ever excited a group of followers would be subject to this....Apparently, apathy is the only 'normal' anymore.

[redqueen]

145. Well said. Not about issues... what does that say? (nt)

[LSK]

142. Can we get over this Cult BULLSHIT NONSENSE already?????

Cant people just have a little something to believe in without being branded mindless cultists???

Sheesh! What the fuck!!!

[redqueen]

146. And don't forget... we were 'suckers' for falling for Edwards' rhetoric.

I can't remember how many around here said crap like that.

[OzarkDem]

144. Political extremists and narcissists

and women haters to boot. Not what I want leading my country. We've already had 8 years of that.

[redqueen]

147. Pardon me, but I'm not a woman hater, an extremist or a narcissist.

Any other slurs you'd like to direct at Obama's supporters?

[Faygo Kid]

155. I'm with redqueen. And I'm offended by your post.

Mom was the first woman to win the WPB award in WWII, and Eleanor Roosevelt flew into Detroit to personally congratulate her. Then she raised my brother and me as a single mom in the late 1950s, and did laundry at a high school to support us. She died in 2003, but she was the strongest person I have ever known. There's more. But you have made up your mind.

I just came back from a visit with my 31 year old feminist daughter, who passionately supports Obama. And she would say: How dare you. How fucking dare you.

[JoFerret]

162. She needs a thicker skin then.

Nice pic of Eleanor.

[eridani]

163. What about "committed activists who are answering a call to national service"?

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/obamamachineryofhope/page/5

No group represents the campaign machine that Obama has built better than AlamObama. A year ago, the group was nothing more than eight people who attended an informal get-together at a Borders bookstore. Today, it's a 600-member grass-roots outfit — an all-volunteer field operation that hums with the energy and efficiency of a fully staffed campaign office. "In Iowa, the campaign was on the ground for six months," says Judy Hall, a college professor who co-founded the group. "They come here, and it's like they've already been on the ground for six months. Those of us in the grass roots, we simply minded the store.

"Well," she says, reconsidering her words, "I guess we actually built the store — but that's what this campaign is all about."

As Hall's well-honed operation makes clear, the Obama campaign has succeeded not by attracting starry-eyed followers who place their faith in hope but by motivating committed activists who are answering a call to national service. They're pouring their lifeblood into this campaign, not because they are in thrall to a cult of personality but because they're invested in the idea that politics matter, and that their participation can turn the current political system on its ear.

In reality, it already has. "We're seeing the last time a top-down campaign has a chance to win it," says Trippi. "There won't be another campaign that makes the same mistake the Clintons made of being dependent on big donors and insiders. It's not going to work ever again."

[VotesForWomen]

156. yep. nt