I'm as partisan as they come, but I don't get the sheer hatred for the opposing candidate

[ruggerson]

I support my candidate, because I think she would be the better President of the two. I want a very partisan, tough, ruthless, battling President, like FDR. I'm not wild about a bipartisan "healer" in the manner of Eisenhower.

Having said that, I like Barack Obama. I've had real differences with him on certain issues, and real differences with him on the way he approaches certain issues, which I"ve written about extensively, so no need to rehash them. The rough and tumble of this campaign has been both fun and enervating at different times, and I've engaged in just as much naked partisanship as anyone else on this board.

But partisanship in favor of Hillary doesn't translate into hatred of Obama, by any stretch. By and large, he's concerned with many of the issues I care about: civil liberties, restoring constitutional protections decimated by BushCo, reinvigorating an engaged, diplomatic and humble foreign policy, healthcare, stem cell research and the ever increasing rich/poor inequity in our country.

To say nothing of Supreme Court appointments.

He's a politician, just like Hillary. He is of no better or worse character than she - they both have dedicated their lives to public service, and they both are very ambitious and manipulative, as politicians must be to survive and thrive in our system.

Just as I don't demonize him, I don't idolize Hillary. I like her toughness and her resilience, but she too is a politican, engaged in this endeavor partly out of self interest and partly because she loves this country.

The oversimplifications and hardened characterizations of the personality traits of both of our candidates by some on this board is troubling, because it probably reflects to some degree the perceptions that are out there in real life.

Hillary Clinton isn't a calculating monster, by any stretch of the imagination. Neither is she an altruistic, selfless leader.

Barack Obama isn't a self obsessed, ambitious pop star devoid of substance, but neither is he a pure, saintly change agent.

The "team sport" aspect of this race has unfortunately hardened attitudes in a pretty puerile, juvenile manner. The packdogs come howling down on anyone who dares to express an opinion contrary to the commonly accepted, screechingly partisan narrative of the day.

Sure, her campaign has tread close to the line on the racial divide at times, and yes, his campaign has tread close to the sexist chasm.

This is, after all, the first time a woman and an African American have ever gotten this far in the presidential sweepstakes, and they're both in unchartered territory.

They are both flawed human beings and they are both flawed politicians.

But, ultimately, they are also both far better Presidents-in-the-making than any Republican could ever hope to be.

[Skittles]

1. I can't figure it out either

the sheer adulation/hatred here is against all logical reasoning

[villager]

2. DUers have picked up the apples of discord, furnished by the GOP

and the MSM...

And the eat heartily of those apples, each day, on this board...

[GoldieAZ49]

50. They are responsible for their own actions

not the MSM or the Republicans

The democrats are eating their own at their own choosing and demise

No one else is to blame

[murielm99]

3. Thank you.

I have been able to ignore some of the new posters who have come here to create divisions, and some of the posters who have been registered for awhile, but absent until primary season.

What I can't fathom are the regulars who have turned to hate. This is not normal.

[TwilightGardener]

4. Sorry, Obama's character is FAR superior to hers.

[ruggerson]

6. You exemplify what I'm writing about

[TwilightGardener]

7. I don't get this "They're both good people"--no, they're not.

[ruggerson]

9. I said they are both flawed human beings

with the characters that come with being flawed human beings.

[TwilightGardener]

11. Flawed, I agree. Character, no comparison. Obama has integrity and

holds himself and his campaign to a higher standard, which is why he tries to stay on the high road, despite the ugliness from Clinton and her surrogates.

[ruggerson]

15. I don't buy that for one second

they've both engaged in very hard hitting political gamesmanship. Clinton is burdened with preconceived perceptions of her, many of them fomented for years by the rightwing, and she is also not anywhere near as naturally likable as he is (though at times, she's gotten better at that). So it's far too easy and simplistic to demonize her and attribute to her all kinds of evil intent that simply aren't there.

[TwilightGardener]

17. Those "preconceived" perceptions of her may or may not have been fomented

by the RW--however, she's living up to them now. Not denouncing Ferraro and removing her from the campaign/finance committee, and instead allowing Maggie Williams, a black woman, to try to twist these awful comments around on Obama because he dares try to defend himself, proves that the Hillary campaign is trying to provoke race as a winning issue for them. There's no other conclusion. Hillary could have had a "sister souljah" moment and came out strongly against Ferraro's comments, but that would take some political courage, and would mean she would have to give up the opportunity (however distasteful) to appeal to the lowest common denominator once again, as she did in OH and TX. This, and her other recent comments about McCain, aren't "hard hitting gamesmanship"--it's an attempt to ruin Obama politically. Not just win, but ruin him, because that's the only way she has left to do it. That's a real problem for me, character-wise. I find her to be a frightening human being. What line won't she cross, to win? Somebody who needs power this desperately shouldn't be allowed anywhere near it.

[Zhade]

33. There's nothing preconceived about her race-baiting, or her lies, or her attempts to cheat.

She did that to herself.

[emilyg]

16. Nonsense.

[TwilightGardener]

18. No. Truth.

[HughMoran]

20. Another absolutist Obama lemming who can't be reasoned with

It's like a disease :crazy:

[Drachasor]

24. He/She thinks Obama is flawed

How is that absolutist? Is it absolutist because they didn't say Obama and Clinton have equal amounts of character? Are you not being absolutist by demanding that as the only reasonable position?

[HughMoran]

26. Yes, I am demanding that people take a reasonable position

I am sick of seeing only the bias from the arrogant blowhard taunting Obama jerks.

[Drachasor]

31. Well...

Would you agree that how Obama's Campaign gets rid of Powers and the like (either are asked to resign or they do so on their own), and Clinton's campaign doesn't get rid of such people (like Wolfsen or Ferraro) seems to indicate his campaign has a higher standard? Or at least handles such situations better?

[HughMoran]

35. I think the Obama camp has done a better job of jettisoning people who fuck up

I'm waiting to see what happens with Ferraro tomorrow - I expect her to disappear if Hillary has any sense. I also, however, think it's kind of silly to spend so much time on these people. I couldn't care less what the Obama people who were ejected said, and other than Ferraro's comments, most on Hillary's side seem unworthy of my attention too. These people are NOT the candidate. I am not so stupid as to think that volunteers (or employees) of the candidate necessarily represent the views of the candidate.

[Drachasor]

40. Granted

But if the candidate keeps them around, then that's not a strong statement he/she disagrees with such views? Saying Obama asking for tax returns for the non-2007 fiscal years is imitating Starr is a ludicrous and incendiary accusation, but Hillary doesn't even denounce it. She can choose the company she keeps on her campaign, and not jettisoning those people is an issue, imho. I personally think it is a character issue, since it is her choice. I also think saying McCain passes the Commander and Chief test and Obama doesn't is a character issue -- as a Democrat she shouldn't be saying the Republican is more qualified to be President than her Democratic opposition, especially when she is in 2nd place for the nomination. That could help her win the nomination, but it is a tactic that isn't good for the Party overall. She seems willing to use more "dirty" tactics to win than Obama. I think that's a character issue.

Now I guess you could say you don't think these are character issues, but do you honestly think it is unreasonable for others to consider them issues of character?

[HughMoran]

49. Well, I was right - Ferraro is toast today

I can't imagine how people can believe that Hillary is either racist or stupid - this place amazes me.

[JoFerret]

45. Nonsense. He is just younger, and with a thinner record

There is no evidence yet that he was born in a manger.

[Catherine Vincent]

5. I like Obama also. It's his fucked up supporters I can't stand.

Not all of them, mind you. ;)

[annie1]

10. often his supporters turn me off him. when i stop watching tv and reading online then...

i like him better. :D

[fedupinBushcountry]

12. But you Hillary supporters

are all just angels O8) I would say it is equal on who has fucked up supporters, not all of them, mind you. ;-)

[Umbram]

13. Want to know a secret?

Obama's supporters are "fucked up" because you aren't one of them.

Obama supporters think that Clinton's supporters are "fucked up" for the same reason.

It's called BIAS.

[bhikkhu]

29. Words of wisdom. n/t

[Celeborn Skywalker]

14. There's plenty of blame to go around.

There are a lot of assholish (is that a word) Clinton supporters also. Right now the idiotic Obama supporters are louder but when Clinton was winning there were plenty of posts from Clinton supporters that were very vitriolic and hate-filled.

[HughMoran]

22. Hear! Hear!

There are a few good ones.

[hfojvt]

41. I resemble that remark!!1!!

Maybe.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

8. K&R!

I absolutely agree with everything you wrote. I prefer Obama over Clinton, but I would be happy with either because their policies are pretty much identical. The sheer hatred for the candidates is ridiculous and ultimately harmful to the Democratic Party.

[Awsi Dooger]

19. Great post ruggerson

I support Hillary but she was my third preference behind Warner and Edwards. I certainly don't have any animosity toward Obama and will support him fully in the general.

The battling hatred on this forum is so repulsive I occasionally don't recognize DU. This forum, in particular, used to move so slowly I'd post and read my post at top, then when I reloaded, that thread would still be at top. Now it's already avalanched halfway down the first page, topped by one thread after another featuring combative or insulting theme.

Who needs this? That's my mental summary every time I sample this forum, and I seldom stay long. The sports sites are more sensible and better behaved, and that's bizarre.

I'll summarize my feelings about the race:

* We can't afford a weak Democratic president. That's where I default and it scares me about Obama. I'm old enough to remember Jimmy Carter and how his name became a mocking condemnation of Democratic politics in general. Took a generation to overcome, and we're still not fully beyond it. I was in high school when Carter was running. My dad is a staunch Democrat with excellent instincts. I was enthused about the potential of the first elected Democrat in my memory, but my dad thought Carter was too milquetoast and vulnerable, with potential to crumble in office. For years I marveled at his astute handicapping. In the 30+ years since, he's only expressed similar concern about one top flight Democratic presidential contender, Barack Obama. Like ruggerson I prefer a fighter and I'm fully convinced Hillary would make the superior president.

* There is more upside to electing a woman, IMO. Far more women than blacks are viable for major office, but many have trouble getting over the hump. We lost many razor house races in '06 with Democratic women as challengers. I witnessed a sickening result in NV-3, Tessa Hafen falling narrowly to pasteboard Jon Porter. Put a woman in the presidency, and make it a successful presidency, and Democrats will benefit dramatically in cycle after cycle.

* Admittedly, I'm annoyed at the mainstream media's slant of the race. I currently drive near Boca Raton, Florida several times per week and every time I see that word, Boca, on a sign I think of MSNBC as the Barack Obama Cheerleading Academy. As someone who originally backed Edwards it was simple to evaluate media coverage of the "other" two, and MSNBC in particular has been ruthless, no threat of balanced journalism. I'd be far more content with the status of the race if it felt like unbiased coverage.

* I've posted statewide numbers for years on DU, and nominating someone with electoral weakness in Ohio and Florida is a scary leap of faith. Borderline masochistic. I'm reminded of 2004 when I warned repeatedly that you need spark and charisma to oust an incumbent, not a resume. Democrats had exactly the wrong priority list in 2004 and now are in danger of repeating the blunder. An open race is about competence, the course of the nation, with likability not as vital. Again, those are criteria I've emphasized repeatedly on DU over the years, not summoned or twisted in desperate attempt to favor one side.

[DeepModem Mom]

21. K&R #5!

[David Zephyr]

23. Too late, ruggerson to make nice. The Clintons went way, way too far.

The stench of their racist politics is now out in the open and there's no putting it back together.

[JoFerret]

46. We must have political ethic cleansing NOW

Is THAT what you mean?

Obama is clearly a divisive figure. Too bad this is what his followers have made him into.
I used to pour scorn on the notion he could not win in November. I now begin to worry because of this ultra divisive nonsense from some of his supporters.
Please - folks - be careful. We HAVE to defeat the GOP in November.

[Jamastiene]

25. Simple. They've been allowed to devolve into hating monsters.

They can even make death threats against Hillary and it's fine and dandy here. That's why they have devolved to that. They have had no authority figure stop them. Karma is going to be a real eye opener for the haters though. They are miserable people who don't deserve any respect until they learn to give it. In the meantime, they are only making enemies and building up bad karma. I don't have any sympathy for them at this point.

[bhikkhu]

27. I agree with much of what you say, but have a different balance of opinion

I wonder sometimes if my perceptions of Obama are based upon false hope, but then one never knows beforehand. I am old enough to have seen my youthful hopes in Carter destroyed by powers beyond his control, and the man's presidency go down in flames. Obama is the first man since that I have similar trust in, and this country is in such dire need both morally and economically of new approaches and ideas...

Why not Hillary? There I wonder too...have my perceptions been clouded beyond repair by the RW machine? They certainly have a knack for destroying people...Kerry, Gore, many others. But there is such a weight of evidence and such a list of disappointments and virtual betrayals - Whitewater, Lewinsky, Iraq, Iran, Cuba, Peter Paul...a long list of pardons of corrupt benefactors at the end of the Clinton administration, and why didn't they free Leonard Peltier? Why didn't they do a thousand other things? Why is it those on the opposing side that hate her seem to have such substantial arguments? And the common thread is the Clinton mastery of political evasiveness - there are no certain positions, and no binding statements. Every thing is negotiable. Maybe I am wrong. I would not be unhappy to be wrong, but I can say I have no trust whatsoever that she will make the decisions that are important to me, such as restoring habeas corpus, ending torture, ceasing this ridiculous meat-grinder of a war and restoring the (somewhat fictional) status of the US as a peacemaker and a leader in human rights.

Your last statement, with all of my doubts considered, I would much rather see either in the White House than McCain.

[Control-Z]

28. Good and fair posting! n/t

[better tomorrow]

30. I want a woman President someday, too, but Hillary is not.....

the right choice. She is too tied into the Illuminist/Global underground shadow government groups. (Bilderbergers, Trilateral, etc.) If you have followed her, you would know. She is a master magician (and I mean that in the most occult way) and is only courting the female vote because most people do not know what she is really about. They claim that she holds higher power in these Illuminist groups than even Bush. The people who don't want her in know that. And, that is why she is so friendly with McCain and the neocons right now. I hope that helps. It was crystal clear to me....pardon the pun....after someone pointed me in the right direction and helped me make my tinfoil hat.

[Zhade]

32. It's because your fellow supporters can't accept her loss.

They're heavily invested in the fantasy that she's "due" and will fix everything and give away free puppies.

Facing her loss is not something they seem to be able to do.

[mojowork_n]

34. Rachel Maddow referred to "constant repetition"

In a different context. She was talking about a poll of Clinton supporters asked if they'd support Obama if he was her running mate. The results of the poll showed more than 2 to 1 against, something around 70 to 30 who said, "no." On the other hand, the Obama supporters posed the same question the other way around were about evenly split, just about 50/50.

Rachel Maddow suggested that may have something to do with Hillary's 'frequent repetition of negative comparisons, between herself and Obama', which must percolate in the brains of people who support her. She seemed to suggest Obama was less guilty of that, which you may or may not buy.

The other part of that is the media keeps turning over rocks, to find people who will feed them an anti-Hillary sound bite. Earlier today, it was (first generation) Australian feminist Germaine Greer, who was quoted as saying Hillary was "cold, bossy and manipulative." (They resonated in my head, so those are the exact words.) Nancy Pelosi must have gotten less camera time, because I still haven't seen what she said.

On the other hand, on top of all that bad coverage, I still say most of the talking heads on the cable news channels are lovin' their other responsibility -- holding Hillary up, with the other hand. Nothing's more fun for them than thinking about possible scenario's, and estimating the chances for her to pull off the nomination, which will probably "go right up to the convention, because she has such strong support in all the {areas that count so heavily}." (So today, with the 20 point win for Obama in Mississippi, all they could focus on was how badly he did among white, male voters. Like it was Springtime for Hillary -- and Germany -- Win-ter, for Michelle and Barack. Catastrophically bad news.)

...Hey, do you think they're playing both our sides off against each other, while holding off on their own main, October Surprise, dirty work?

[better tomorrow]

36. ah, I think that Bush will October surprise us before them anyway.

he as much said so.....

[Johnny__Motown]

37. then watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZsYWiywdCA&feature=related


despicable and unforgivable

[Jed Dilligan]

38. I came in ready to rip into McCain but

thanks.

[PurityOfEssence]

39. You obviously have a criminally healthy ego

This leads to such antisocial perspective. Watch it; you'll be roundly hated because this will mark you for virulent attacks.

I think the sheer fact--as you've pointed out--that they're both quite, quite flawed makes the stalwarts feel that they have to amp up their claxon-like rage; it's necessary to truly stomp adversaries because one has to still the nagging voices of uncertainty and embarrassment within.

Life, for most, is a continual effort to force the analog complexities of life into simple good and bad, and the aching need to prove to all that one is with the good, right and victorious consumes most of human energy.

You, unfortunately, suck.

Suck on, though; many of us appreciate it.

[hfojvt]

42. "naked" partisanship, "sheer" hatred

Is this a sex thread? I KNOW those are code words :P

[Catherina]

43. The hatred is for America's racism and Clinton played that card

As a Black woman, I assure you that if she hadn't played that card, she'd be the front-runner now but her pride couldn't take a few initial defeats and the rest is history.

Ruggerson, we are not rejecting people who thought Hillary was a better candidate because ideologically, Obama and Hillary aren't that far apart (save a clusterbomb or two)- we're rejecting the politics of racism and hate that keep this country from making any progress.


Edit to add that I'm recommending this because it's time to start healing and welcoming anyone who wants to heal.

[JoFerret]

44. We now have "Operation Political Ethnic Cleansing"

from some hyperbole mongers on the fringes of the Obama campaign. Very disturbing.

[Kaotac]

47. As an Aussie, I don't get it either.

But can't help finding it a little amusing. Some of the stuff on here lately might be at home on FStDT.com

[JCMach1]

48. Transference

http://thesyndrome.com/index.php?s=freud