Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Neocons abandon Bush, but God I hope they don't become dems again

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 03:56 PM
Original message
Neocons abandon Bush, but God I hope they don't become dems again
Edited on Wed Apr-21-04 03:57 PM by Classical_Liberal
or that the dems don't try and attract their support, which is unfortunately what may be happening, and why Kerry is lurching right on foriegn policy.

In Saturday's New York Times, conservative commentator David Brooks aired a striking change of heart in a column titled "A More Humble Hawk." In light of mounting unrest and a spike in U.S. casualties (as of Tuesday evening, at least 100 soldiers have been killed in action since April 1), Brooks conceded, "The first thing to say is that I never thought it would be this bad" and "I did not appreciate how our very presence in Iraq would overshadow democratization." Though with cautious words, Brooks faults the Bush administration for more than a failure of imagination.

"Let me describe my attitude toward the Bush administration. Despite all that's happened, I was still stirred by Bush/Blair statements about democracy in the Middle East. Nonetheless, over the past two years many conservatives have grown increasingly exasperated with the administration's inability to execute its policies semicompetently."

Such "semicompetence," Brooks argues, should have included more money and manpower.

"When I worked at The Weekly Standard, we argued ad nauseam that the U.S. should pour men and matériel into Iraq -- that such an occupation could not be accomplished by a light, lean, 'transformed' military. The administration was impervious to the growing evidence about that. The failure to establish order was the prime mistake, from which all other problems flow.

"On July 21, 2002, my colleague Robert Kagan wrote the first of several essays lamenting the administration's alarming lack of preparation for post-Saddam Iraq. Yet the administration seemed content to try nation-building on the cheap.......

http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news1/salon7.html

The 'National Review' Flip-Flop

by Marcus Epstein

National Review has issued a surprisingly semi-sober editorial acknowledging the state of the Iraqi occupation. They condemn the Wilsonianism neoconservative mindset that thinks that American can import democracy to Iraq. They also denounce the extreme optimism that denies any American failures or difficulties that occur in Iraq. While not admitting that the war was a bad idea to begin with, they at least call for a relatively prompt withdrawal from Iraq. Good for them.

The editorial concludes,

Ultimately, even if our choices now can help or hurt, it is Iraqis who have to save Iraq. It is their country, not ours. In coming weeks and months, we will have to defer to the authorities we hope will eventually take control, in the process endorsing compromises that we will consider less than ideal. But it is time for reality to drive our Iraq policy, unhindered by illusions or wishful thinking. We should do what we can to give Iraqis a chance at a better future, then pray that they take it.

I couldn’t agree more, but it would be nice if our friends at National Review could admit that they were the ones full of illusions and wishful thinking. Maybe they could issue a mea culpa and apologize to us unpatriotic conservatives who have urged a "self-fulfilling defeatism." Just for fun, I thought it would be nice to compare what National Review’s new illusion-free editorial board thinks to earlier comments made in the nations premiere conservative magazine.

Now:

Since the conclusion of the war, the Bush administration has shown a dismaying capacity to believe its own public relations. The post-war looting was explained away as the natural and understandable exuberance of a newly-liberated people......

http://ad-adex3.flycast.com/server/iframe/Antiwarcom/LewRockwell/123456
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
buddy22600 Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Finally people are wising up
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I hope they are.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. More likely they are just trying to persue friendly imperialsim now
I don't want them in the party.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Brooks hasn't learned anything
You should read the entire piece. Brooks is still defending Bush* and his war
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. The neocons don't wise up
They are just trying to save their skin, and persue the pnac agenda with a friendlier face.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. No they are not. They are just saying that the horse they rode in on is
lame. They do not admit that the whole neocon PNAC was a delusion. That would mean admitting failure on their part. They are no better at admitting failure than *, Cheney, Rummy, and Wolfie.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. Dammit! If You're Going to Be a Warmongering, Fascist, Imperialist
At least be competent about it!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
physioex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. Hell NO....
We don't want or need those cooks. Their idealogy is based on control of the masses without any morality. No human being is above morality in my opinion. Those guys are nothing but psuedo-intellecutals.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
9. The NeoCons said it would be a cakewalk
& now they are pissed off, because it is difficult. They wanted to be in Syria already.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
klook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
10. The friend of my enemy
...may criticize my enemy, but that doesn't make him my friend.

I'm not excited that neocons are criticizing the Bush Administration about not pouring enough military and financial resources into Iraq. This just means they want to pump up the war effort, which I strongly oppose.

This is similar to criticisms of the government's not giving more power to the CIA and FBI earlier. I'm not going to get on that bandwagon, because I don't want to live in (more of) a police state.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
11. Harry Truman, Dean Acheson, Henry "Scoop" Jackson, John F. Kennedy . .
Tell me, would any of these foreign policy hawks be welcome in your Democratic Party?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. did Truman or Kennedy sign on to an imperialist agenda?
The neocons do. If Truman and/or Kennedy demonstratively did, I'm not aware of it and would truly like to know. There was a two-part Jonathan Schell article in Harper's a couple of months back that you might like to read regarding the neocon aim.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. The Truman Doctrine
was about engaging Communism and containing it worldwide. It was created by fellows like Paul Nitze, the man who taught Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Cheney how to do the do.

Kennedy maintained the status of the imperium he inherited.

So, yeah, they both 'signed on.' The Truman Doctrine was the starter pistol.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Given you stance against the war I have a hard time
understanding your position here?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Um...
My stance here is that Truman and Kennedy augmented and/or maintained America's imperial position in the world.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. was a stance of countering communism
in and of itself imperial? It's arguable, but I'd say not.

I am aware that there was a substantial clique, following WWII, arguing for what amounts to American imperialism. This had something to do with the "communist threat" but not everything. To the degree that Truman followed their advice, I think I can say "no" to dolstein's question.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Acheson, and Scoop, no! Kennedy, and Truman, yes
Edited on Wed Apr-21-04 04:51 PM by Classical_Liberal
. Acheson was one of the hotheads Kennedy had to deal with during the Cuban Missle crisis. Why would we want him?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malachibk Donating Member (780 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
12. Great, but...
these folks aren't going to vote Kerry, that's for damn sure. Will they vote bush or stay home?? (I think they'll still vote bush).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed May 01st 2024, 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC