Denver is Going to Be a Disaster.

[David Zephyr]

Denver is going to be worse than Chicago in 1968.

There will be no unity now. It's too late. Humpty Dumpty has fallen from that delicate perch up on that wall.

Wall Street, the Corporate Media, the Defense Industry are not going to allow Barack Obama, who is not beholden to lobbyists and who might actually talk to our fabricated enemies, they will not permit him to become the nominee of the Democratic Party. If you think they shut down Howard Dean, it's nothing to what they will do to Obama. And the Clintons, our corporation cozy Clintons, are licking their lips because they know that all the dirty work is about to be done for them.

The very people that took us into war in Iraq for oil are the ones that are going to destroy Obama's candidacy and make sure that only those who supported and authorized that war for oil will be the nominees of the two political parties: John McCain and Hillary Clinton.

It is now obvious why the Clintons continued on when the math ruled them out of the contest: they knew they could count on the establishment to shut Obama down.

It's too late now. Anyone can see what is going down. This is not going to have a happy ending.

The Clintons are hell-bent to steal the nomination and they have a lot of powerful friends to help them.

Denver is going to be a disaster.

Nothing can bring peace now. And the Clintons don't want it. They need the earth scorched to win. And they will see to it that it is scorched.

It is with great sadness that I even say this, but the seeds were sown when the Clintons kept moving the goal posts. The signals were all there.

Obama's supporters are going to be heart broken and crushed as they watch what has already begun.

But don't expect them to sit home this summer. They will be traveling to Denver.

Denver is going to be another Chicago '68. History does repeat itself after all.

As John Lennon said, the dream is over.

[Rick Myers]

1. Not only are you correct, but...

...it will be worse!!!

A complete meltdown in the face of a drop-kick victory! Let's screw ourselves!!!

[Arugula Latte]

2. Hillary doesn't give a crap about anything other than Hillary's Power.

She'll do anything to destroy Obama and the grassroots and slash and burn her way to the nomination either now or in 2012.

[Yurovsky]

89. The Clintons always put themselves above the party...

and looked down upon the rank & file. Unless you've got millions to donate to them or Bill's library, you don't exist.

They are elitist corporate fucks, and I hope they get booed off the stage in Denver.

[peacetheonlyway]

3. I see the same outcome

and I see some folks who scream the loudest that the delegate counts stick, not upholding and voting for Clinton (like Donna Brazile).

Dean needs to grow a big fat dick and put an end to this nightmare and rewrite the fucking superdels out of the convention now.

be done with it.

we can do it...

we have more muscle now than we did when Dean was green behind the ears.

we and he can do it!

[Botany]

7. calm down ...

Dr. Dean's 50 state strategy kicked ass in 2006.

Hillary is all but out of it .... she is dropping super
delegates every day.

Edwards Iowa delegates are now free .... they
should go 80% + for Obama.

[tridim]

19. I think it's over too.

Hillary will probably hang around until PA and then drop out shortly after.

I also think the negativity will die down in a week or two as the party elders start raising a stink.

[Botany]

4. Calm down ... Obama leads in voters, states, and very shortly super delegates.

We can out work .... out organize ..... and out hustle "the man."

Grab your coat and get your hat
Leave your worries on the doorstep
Life can be so sweet
On the sunny side of the street

Cant you hear the pitter-pat
And that happy tune is your step
Life can be complete
On the sunny side of the street

I used to walk in the shade with my blues on parade
But Im not afraid...this rover? s crossed over

If I never had a cent
Id be rich as rockefeller
Gold dust at my feet
On the sunny side of the street

I used to walk in the shade with them blues on parade
Now Im not afraid... this rover has crossed over

Now if I never made one cent
I? ll still be rich as rockefeller
There will be goldust at my feet
On the sunny
On the sunny, sunny side of the street

[papau]

9. It will be a disaster w/ Nov loss - but Obama will get nod & refuse Hill as VP - I just don't

see Obama without Hill winning the media war and holding the senior vote against McCain.

[Gore1FL]

15. That's exactly where gov sebelius comes in handy....

Obama/Sebelius is the unity ticket.

[papau]

30. weak tea to patch up the division - but O may win with Sebelius - I've been wrong before - often :-)

[Botany]

23. Obama would never pick Hillary

She has a 47% negative rating across the country

McCain is gonna get beat like a rented mule ....
he was second to last in his class @ Annapolis ...
America does not want another dumb ass as
President.

[papau]

32. Older folks like Hillary - but McCain offers security/war record - Obama may win w/o Hill but it

won't be as easy as it would have been with Hill - just my opinion of course.

[earthlover]

46. Better Wes Clark than Hillary....he is appealing to more demographics than Hillary

He would even appeal to the old foggies who like hillary

[papau]

76. wes would counter the security skeptics - but not the older women

[Cha]

85. Accentuate The Positive, Eliminate the negative,

Latch on to The Affirmative And don't mess with Mr In-Between!

[samdogmom]

5. If true, where does this leave us? n/t

[David Zephyr]

12. I really don't know. I wish I did.

But it's already begun. The shut down of Obama's audacity of hope has begun.

Either way, Wall Street and the Defense Contractors and the Oil Conglomerates win with either Clinton or McCain and that's all that matters to them.

Remember, the New York Times and every major corporate news media organization cheer led the war in Iraq and spread the White House lies and participated in fear-mongering.

And they are about to slip back into that mode again.

The people that own America are not going to give up control of America.

[moobu2]

21. Actualy Barack stole that "audacity of hope" line from Rev, Wright

He's a fake and if he doesnt win, it's his own damn fault

[boppers]

27. When somebody gives you a line, it's not theft.

What, do you believe clinton actually writes her own books, or her own speeches? :rofl: That's propaganda you can Xerox.

[moobu2]

28. All Barack has is his words and they're not even his

[Stardust]

43. How original. Get yer gems of wisdom right here, folks!!!

:sarcasm:

Edited because I can. :P

[Voltaire]

45. Anything original to say?

Or just the same regurgitated shit?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

47. Can't say you offer much either.

[Danger Mouse]

48. All moobu2 has is his words and they're not even his.

[earthlover]

51. you forgot to add that all he has is his race....didn't the Hillary Herd tell you the talking point?

[rucky]

77. And if that's all you have...

Barack is going to be just fine.

[earthlover]

50. The "Xerox line" was written for Hillary....not her words at all!

This is particularly ironic because she was trying to use her copied words to decry Obama's copied words. Hypocrisy, yes. Originality, no.

[boppers]

56. Was wondering who the first person to get that would be.

For winning, I'll give you a brand-new, shiny, internets.

[DemBones DemBones]

60. Here's the difference: Obama used words from another person's speech,

without giving credit to his friend. It's common courtesy to say "As my friend John Doe said . . ."

It's not a huge deal AFAIC but it would have been smarter as well as more polite to give the guy credit to avoid
the appearance of stealing someone else's lines. Somebody heard both speeches and noticed and Obama had to
apologize.

The Clinton situation is quite different.

All politicians employ speechwriters and other people in their campaigns and it's not expected for anyone to say
"As my speechwriter said . . ." or "As my PR consultant said. . ."

It should be assumed that political speeches are a group effort, generally speaking, and the candidate has paid
to use words supplied by campaign workers.

So there's no foul against Clinton for using a line provided by a speechwriter or other campaign member, if she
did that. She has nothing to apologize for. Obama has nothing to apologize for when he uses words written
by a campaign worker without saying so.

Not all politicians are like Abe Lincoln, writing the Gettysburg Address on the back of an envelope on the train
to Gettysburg, if that's not an apocryphal tale. Some today write a lot of their speeches, some, I suspect, don't write any of them.

[ZinZen]

36. David this is really no surprise

Obama is going up against the status quo and they do not like seeing their power usurped in anyway and will fight to the death. Obama has stated the difficulty of fighting the status quo and has a grasp on it. I can understand your frustration as I have been frustrated at times also, but I am feeling a bit optimistic about Obama's chances as he has come so far in this process. He was supposed to have been knocked out months ago and look at where he is at- AHEAD!

[leftrightwingnut]

68. Dare we..."hope?"

:-)

[MonkeyFunk]

71. LOL

Where do people get these ideas?

Has Obama been a progressive crusader in the Senate? No... he's just been a solid Democrat, like Clinton has.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

6. From your lips to your ears

There sure is a lot of excitement around here at the prospect of everyone letting their freak flag fly and destroying what's left of the Party.

And for what?

As a petulant show of ego to enforce a stylistic choice between two really lame people with no substantive policy differences.

It's as if the French Revolution were about forcing Louis XVI to adopt a cooler hair-style.

[KittyWampus]

16. OMG! "It's as if the French Revolution were about forcing Louis XVI to adopt a cooler hair-style".

:rofl:

[AGirl]

88. LMAO on that one too.

[DemBones DemBones]

59. You said it. It's all about personalities, not about positions on issues.

A lot of people liked the way Obama speaks and decided he was the perfect candidate. He's not.

Neither is Clinton. Every debate, they're agreeing about almost everything, and they're not saying anything
really progressive. They're both triangulating. Either one would disappoint us if elected.

Clinton at least can win, if Obama doesn't insist on destroying the party rather than accept what he has done to himself by not cutting his ties to Wright.

Clinton will be better than McCain and be able to appoint Supreme Court justices and veto stupid bills passed by Republicans and stupid Democrats. Maybe she really will start withdrawing troops from Iraq and getting us out of NAFTA. You know McCain won't.

But if Obama and his supporters tear down the Bastille, er, party, McCain will win.

Some change. Some hope.

:banghead:

[Tatiana]

8. Yep. That's what I've thought for some time now.

I've never been to Colorado before, but I figure August is as good a time as any.

[Whisp]

10. Obama is President, If You Want It.

something Lennon might have said. ;)

sometimes dreams are good.

we are overdue. ying yang.

[KittyWampus]

18. that's what I HOPE! Giving birth to a new day can be a bit painful. Labor painz

Democratz haz them/

[Whisp]

25. If Obama does get to Pres...

ouch. The work he has to do to undo the Clinton/bush years...

or at least not let those programs of hurt go further into destruction.

It will be a task for a Hercules and the crits and critters will dog him every second from both 'sides'. I know he knows that, and i believe he is up to the task as he has recruited a lot of new and awake thinkers.

but still... ouch!

[Beregond2]

11. Denver

Someone needs to go back on their meds.

[silverweb]

13. I don't think so.

I think we'll have most of the kinks worked out well before the convention.

Call me a hope monger. :D

[patrice]

14. We are War Slaves! nt

[DURHAM D]

17. No need for Hillary to steal the election - Obama blew it. What drivel.

Have fun in Denver.

[David Zephyr]

22. You just have that untidy problem with Obama's majority of delegates, huh?

Election stolen.

[DURHAM D]

26. Piffle - go to bed. eom

[theboss]

39. At the end of the day, who really cares about the will of the people or the rules?

Just win, baby.

[earthlover]

55. without sarcasm, that would spell out the hillary position quite well....

I can't agree that this is a position that will lead to a victory in November, however.

[earthlover]

53. So the Hillary Herd says piffle to pledged delegate lead, popular vote lead ....

Sorry to rain on your parade, but the only route you have left is to use the sds to go against the popular vote and pledged delegates. If you succeed, it will divide the party. That is reality. Do you really want a victory at the cost of defeat? I didn't think so....

[Laelth]

20. I hope you are wrong, but I have little more than hope to go on.

n/t

:(

-Laelth

[AX10]

24. All of this HRC is a right winger crap needs to stop.

I do agree though, that Denver is not going to be fun.

[Tom Rinaldo]

29. I really don't want to argue but

At Denver the Democratic Party will choose it's nominee for President by a vote of the certified delegates present. If Obama wins the majority of those certified delegates he will win the nomination. If he does not he will lose. Those are the rules agreed upon by all Democratic candidates for President. Obama, unlike McCain on the Republican side, does not yet have the support of a majority of the certified Democratic Delegates.

Obama is the front runner not the presumptive nominee. Though Obama is ahead it is a very close race. It is possible, under Democratic Party rules, for Obama to lose without that meaning the nomination was "stolen" away from him. It is exactly this type of all or nothing thinking that could cause what you describe to happen. Obama may well win, but he can also lose fair and square, according to the rules of the Democratic Party.

You speak negatively of "scortched earth" tactics, but it is also a "scortched earth" tactic to claim "either my side wins or the game is crooked and therefor our side will cause all hell to break out if we don't win." That can be viewed as threats and intimidation, which is why I call that attitude a "scortched earth" tactic.

[anamandujano]

65. Thanks for the sanity. This guy knows it's over for Bama and is

frantically hoping to make it go away with threats of 1968. He and his side have been doing this for weeks, as you know.

Bama did this to himself.

In the next few weeks, maybe days, there will be a very calm call from all quarters for Obama to end his campaign. My opinion, but not really a stretch.

[wileedog]

86. Its not a "close race"

"Though Obama is ahead it is a very close race."

Its actually a race that would have been declared over were there anyone but a Clinton in it. Huckabee had a similar mathematical chance of winning when he was dropped completely from all relevant news coverage and turned into a punchline.

She cannot win the PDs. She will not win the popular vote without seating two completely invalid elections 'as is' in MI and FL. She will enter Denver having won half the states that Obama won.

There is nothing close about the race now, there are only Superdelegates and a MSM that doesn't want to let go of the ratings.

[laugle]

31. Obama painted

himself into this corner, stop blaming Hillary.......take responsibility for the screw-up, stop whining and do something positive!

What a defeatist attitude........whoa's me........

[JohnnyLib2]

33. I met the bus returning from the Chicago convention.....

Those were times of death, the draft, riots and tear gas and National Guard.

There were no cell phones or laptops.

Denver might see some protesters gathered for the cameras. There may be some angry exchanges--in front of the camera.

Cool it, you guys.

[AllentownJake]

34. EVERYONE CALM DOWN!!!

Please lets all take a deep deep breath.

Hillary supporters I respect you. I respect your candidate. I respect what your candidate accomplished in the 1990's with her Husband. Other than one vote in 2002 I respect what she did in the Senate. If your candidate is the nominee I will vote for her.

Obama supporters- We are winning. Lets take a deep breath and not go crazy. We are going to need the Hillary supporters to get elected. We may disagree with some of the tactics but we have to remember she didn't pick these up herself she's just doing what she's learned from 20 years of dealing with republicans. Its all her campaign knows.

At the end of the day...Obama supporters we will need to vote for the democratic candidate for the United States...John McCain is not going to be good for this country. In two years after we've invaded Iran and had to re-establish the draft do you want to look back at August and say...maybe if I hadn't overreacted so much we wouldn't be in this crazy situation.

I won't disguise myself I'm an Obama supporter. I'm an Obama volunteer. Right now I'm knocking on doors, registering voters, and making calls in PA to help Obama win. However, if things don't go our way for some reason I'm not stupid enough to believe that somehow John McCain with his "Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran" nonsense will do anything but further destroy this country.

I want Obama to be President but at the end of the day I don't want John McCain to be President.

[mmonk]

63. Great post. Rationality around here lately is rare. You've done well.

[Dogmudgeon]

35. Yeah, it's all the Clintons' fault

:eyes:

--p!

"You think you're so clever and classless and free ..."
(Some self-absorbed rich guy.)

[DemBones DemBones]

62. Yeah, they should have told Obama to quit that church years ago

And told him not to hire Wright as an advisor. And not to use lines from smebody else's speech without saying
"As my friend JohnDoe said, , , ," And told him not to let a slumlord's wife give him a piece of property.

Damn, have the Clintons adopted a biracial child?

Given his age, I don't think so.

Unless they are legally his parents or guardians, they don't have a responsibility to tell him how to run his
campaign, and he'd probably be highly pissed if they tried to suggest anything.

[ruggerson]

37. oh the drama

n/t

[theboss]

38. If Hillary is able to turn this Wright nonsense into a romp in PA, all bets are off

I can't even begin to predict an outcome at that point.

[Political Heretic]

41. Um... no they aren't.

- most pledged delegates
- popular vote
- most states won

vs.

- Mah states are biggur than yers


There's no electability argument to make - polls have both tied or Obama ahead, but both and beating McCain by narrow margins.

[anamandujano]

66. She won't get involved. It looks like the press is finally getting a clue.

[VolcanoJen]

40. I've had those moments.

And then, someone sensible talks me off the ledge.

I wish I could be that person for you right now, David, but I don't think I'm very good at it. Listen to the better angels in the thread.

:hug: DavidZeph :hug:

[meow mix]

42. ill be there, ready to throw rocks if the party dies. moving within driving distance soon.

woot

[aquarius dawning]

44. what a bunch of fucking drama queens.

[Danger Mouse]

49. Hmm...if Hillary wins by shattering the party, we lose in November. Simple.

:shrug:

[McCamy Taylor]

52. FEAR MONGERING ALERT. Karl Rove wants you scared but IT IS OUR CONVENTION.

Chill out everyone. We are in control. Not the RNC. Not Hillary's laser beam eyes. Not "the cult". Not the Dinos. We, the people. Would Dr. Howard Dean do you wrong?

David, you need to change your icon or change your tone.

We have nothing to fear....

[elixir]

54. I agree with your point but your suggestion that the Clintons are responsible for BOs situation is

wrong.

[bhikkhu]

57. I agree. Two good candidates in a tough contest.

There is no need to call "foul" if one does not drop out for the good of the party - it is not required, and certainly not expected by either campaign organization or donor base.

The repugs are willing and able to smear and distort and twist both campaigns, until they are blaming each other for every kind of treachery. This is what should end, and there is time to just let the campaigns play out, and go to Denver like civilized people.

[DemBones DemBones]

61. BO got himself in this mess and dragged the party along.

I am angry at his lack of common sense. I have known so many good, capable black people that it pains me
greatly to see BO screw up like this. I mean, what a bozo!

[DemBones DemBones]

58. Do you really think Obama would be better than Clinton?

Do you really think anyone can get into office and change things significantly?

I don't know if sig lines are turned off now so I'll say this here:

"If voting really changed things, it would be illegal." -- Emma Goldman

Emma knew it 100 years ago and I'm sorry to say it's only been in the last eight that I've really come to see that.
But then again, I remember when JFK started the Peace Corps and when LBJ got the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act passed, and created the Medicare system, so I have seen significant changes. But what positive changes have occurred since then?

OK, here's the deal:

Who owns the media? Big corporations

Who pulls those puppets' strings? Corporate CEOs

Who do the guys with pull want to win? The GOP, always the GOP.

So why build Obama up? Because the GOP, and certainly higher-ups in the media, knew that he could be torn
down, his credibility destroyed.

Ergo, the GOP wants Obama to be our nominee so that McCain will win. Q.E.D.

Yes, they will do everything possible to destroy any Democratic nominee. They've been trying to destroy HRC for
16 years but she won her Senate seat even though she'd never lived in NY, and she won re-election. She's worked hard to position herself to become president. She could have won in November easily, despite the "negatives" the media always talk about.

That's another clue: three years of the media interviewing people who claimed the Repubs couldn't wait to run against Hillary. What that really meant was that they were afraid she'd be the nominee and they couldn't beat her since all their earlier attempts to destroy her have failed. They hoped that by telling Americans that everybody hates Hillary, Americans would buy it. Obviously, not everybody bought it or she wouldn't have won so many primaries.

Obama has done well at getting black voters and younger voters to the caucuses and primaries and that's admirable, but he's also gotten help from Republican crossover votes. He's won in a lot of red states that Jesus Christ could not win if he had a (D) after his name in the general election so they're hollow victories.

That was true before the Wright tapes came out. It's more true now. Common sense says that if you're planning to run for office, you think seriously about anything you've done that could hurt you and you correct it before you become a candidate. The Obamas should have started attending another church years ago and distancing themselves from Wright. What were they thinking?

[mattclearing]

64. It's still almost five months away.

Quit with the gloom and doom already.

[leftrightwingnut]

67. You have brought to light my darkest fears of this primary.

Hillary will hang in there despite all "logic" to the contrary. All the while, her negative campaigning and whisper campaigns will rise to a deafening crescendo. And then some very ugly things will happen at the convention.

The Clintons could very well rip this party in two if they go through with this. It will be Clinton's fault, not Obama's. The Clintons fail to see the real implications of supporters flocking to Obama because they are sick of the status quo, the same old establishment politics. No matter what Obama says or does, short of political suicide, he will not be able to heal the rift.

Assuming that Clinton goes on to win the GE, that is when the real darkness falls. I don't even know if I can bear to go there. It will be a Democratic president quelling popular dissent from Americans in her own party. Very dark, indeed.

[Catherina]

69. No it won't David. The DNC won't allow that to happen

The DNC isn't stupid. They can count votes as well as the rest of us.

Obama is their dream candidate. He's been bringing in what they need to finally win- voters. They're not going to sacrifice all that new blood and all the returning independent blood to go back to a losing playbook. They also know that without Obama the Black vote that was steadily dropping will be practically dead.

I know the Clintons will pull every dirty trick in the book including going to the Supreme Court but don't let that stop YOU because the country is sick of the Clintons.

If there was ever a time to say "Yes we can", it's now.

[AlinPA]

70. Denver will be what the media wants it to be. They like "battles", "wars",

"clashes", "in-fighting", .....

[Bake]

72. Obama did it to himself!

This Wright Stuff is toxic. Obama knew it going in, and he plunged ahead anyway. If he weren't such a bungler, a political rookie, he'd have dealt with this decisively years ago. If the dream is over, it's because your guy killed it.

Bake

[Carolina]

73. K&R!

How sad, but true.

I have learned -- the hard way -- to listen to my instincts, intuition, gut feelings and what my pastor says is the Holy Spirit; and I have been feeling the same way since HRC turned nasty, or rather, started revealing her true monstrous self.

How well I remember Chicago 1968.
Denver 2008 will be Chicago 1968 redux... how tragic!

[From The Left]

74. The Gov. of Colorado Said the National Guard Will be on Alert

The Clintons would prefer a divided and destroyed Democratic party and rioting in the streets.

Shillary is like Stalin.

[Bullet1987]

75. If the nomination is taken from Obama in a very shady way...all fucking hell will break loose

And Clinton will be forced to have him as her running mate anyway.

[Neshanic]

78. Anoter 1968? Oh please.

[LWolf]

79. That's one thing I can agree on.

It was too late to unify the party, imo, when the first votes for both of them were cast.

Hope, while weak, is not yet dead. I'm hoping for a brokered convention that will produce a candidate that CAN unify the party.

[Swamp Rat]

80. Dirty tricks will come back to the tricksters 10 fold.

I do not have such a pessimistic view of Denver, and I have a lot of confidence in Howard Dean and the DNC to keep it under control.

Whatever happens, pay close attention Rush Limpballs before and after Denver. ;)

[reflection]

81. If I had to bet

I would say Obama will still win, will select someone whiter than Casper as VP, and the GE will be a hard-fought campaign and could go either way. I guess we'll see.

[cbayer]

82. I find this whole "we will riot in Denver" idea fascinating.

As someone who was involved in vigorous anti-war protesting prior to, during and following the convention in Chicago, I have frequently asked myself why the youth of today have not been more active in protesting this current war.

So I find it particularly interesting that we now have threats of protests and riots if a particular democratic candidate (who's current views on the war are basically identical to the other candidate) is not nominated.

You can get outraged about this but not about the war?

I don't get it.

[Yael]

83. "When the forces of change stand up against the status quo

the status quo attacks" -- John Edwards, New Hampshire debate

He was right, but I would venture to say that even HE probably didn't know how right he was (or how ugly this was going to get).

[LuvMyPorsche]

84. they

better call out the National Guard early...

if there are any soldiers LEFT in teh States...

[AGirl]

87. And the Clintons, our corporation cozy Clintons, are licking their lips because they know that all t

not with this kind of trash talking, thats for sure.