Wright is WRONG - In the name of Love

[indimuse]

If God is love and Jesus is Love, WHERE was the love from Rev Wright?


We have all suffered one way or another, and suffering is measured by each individually. And we all have the ability to forgive and the ability to hate, to love and choose. It's right there.

When you have the opportunity to a become Teacher or a Preacher, you have a choice on HOW to inspire your pupils your congregation. "In the name of Love" is what you would think keeps people attending service Sunday after Sunday...'In the name of Love' healing begins.. and forgiveness IS The Healer...That RISES you above all past negative experience ~~~ Opposed to bitter - painful HATE! In the name of Love you can move mountains...In the name of Love ALL is possible. In the name of Love you become a Uniter. Uniters work from a place higher than themselves...Dividers point fingers -Stir the hate pot and remove love and forgiveness to ADD more fear and pain -( your pain translates to $$$ a lot of times.! ) They instigate when they could negotiate... provoke..when they could create harmony. They segregate when they could include ALL. In the name of Love... ALL is forgiven...THAT is Love! And worth teaching! Forgiveness comes when you are open enough to see yourself and strong enough to overcome..YOU...In the name of Love ~


Let's remember::: If Obama was proud of this Rev. Wright..He would not try to hide him away...He would have shone a light and shared him with ALL America...HE KNEW.

[Captain Hilts]

1. You don't choose your "crazy uncle," you DO choose your pastor. nt

[indimuse]

3. yes..

...

[Voice for Peace]

55. Here's another crazy person who listens to Wright.. Must See!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioaChVw_pUw

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

105. look at the pastor, don't ask about Hillary's tax returns or white house records

or about Bill's donors to his "library".

Look over there!!! not at what really matters.

[leftynyc]

116. LOL - Uh - the OP is about Rev Wright

you are the one trying to change the subject on this thread. Start you own thread about the tax return, etc.

[Teaser]

2. Jesus physically assaulted the money changers in the temple

He made a whip of cords and beat them with it.

How loving was that?

[indimuse]

4. but...

did he spew hate...did he insult people...did he campaign for a political candidate from the pulpit?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

10. Yes Jesus was into violence.

He said "I come not in peace, but with a sword..I have come to set the mother-in-law against the daughter-in-law" etc.


Jesus said he would split families apart. That's one prophecy he was correct about.

[indimuse]

12. I would take the sword to be the

tongue. Your words.

[Teaser]

14. On what basis do you make that interpretation?

Did You read it koine greek? I have and do. The reference to violence is explicit.

[skater314159]

77. You can a read single verse in Koine, but obviously not the whole pericope.

Time for you to brush up on that Koine.

[theredpen]

86. *I* read it in Koine

μη νομισητε οτι ηλθον βαλειν ειρηνην επι την γην ουκ ηλθον βαλειν ειρηνην αλλα μαχαιραν

ειρηνην: This means peace or tranquility among people. The use of this terms is significant as it refers to the peace of the messiah, but also fits in with the metaphor of the knife (see below), as it is derived from the verb ειρο (eiro "to join").

μαχαιραν: A small sword or large knife. This is used most frequently to butcher animals into smaller cuts of meat. It is often also used as a metaphor for war or conflict. It can refer to a sword used in combat, but it's ambiguous.

Given the context of the entire passage, it's clearly a metaphor.

[anigbrowl]

112. So? Reverend Wright is just giving some people a tongue-lashing

But that doesn't seem to be acceptable to you.

[theredpen]

75. The sword is metaphorical

In Matthew 10, Jesus is talking about how his followers will face persecution and opposition for their choice. He is trying to say, "if you aren't ready to face this opposition, then don't bother joining the movement." When he talks about bringing a sword and he is talking about how following his path will sever traditional cultural ties between his followers and those that oppose their new beliefs. In the following text, he is pointing out that this separation will be most acute within families. How many families end up slice apart — cut with a metaphorical sword &mdashl when the children leave the religion for another (or even no religion at all)?

It's not a passage about real violence. It's a passage about the spiritual and emotional violence that comes when those close to you cannot accept your personal beliefs. :eyes:

"Only children and idiots read Scripture literally." -- Rabbi Hillel

[skater314159]

80. And if you read bible and understood Koine, you would know this is a parable, not a prophecy.

You don't even know Biblical textual genres.

In English or Koine.

[Teaser]

18. "Did he insult people?". Yes.

He referred to the pharisees as the "sons of snakes". (generation of vipers)

That is equivalent to referring to a Catholic priest as a son of a bitch.

There are many insults he employed.

Have you actually read the gospels?

[indimuse]

28. I have.

It has been a while since I've opened the book,couple of years... Rev Wright does not inspire unity for ALL..a few yes. ALL ...no. That is not LOVE!

[skater314159]

79. He insulted them in Matt 3rd chapter...

... as they were coming to the desert to be Baptised by John the Forerunner because it was popular.

The fact they were hopping on the bandwagon to do the popular thing, instead of doing the right thing is what the problem was.

Do you read and understand Koine Greek? It's obvious you don't understand it - or the culture of second Temple Period and Hellenistic Judaism of the day.

I doubt you have read the Biblical and Extra-Biblical texts outside the fundamentalist or exclusivist context you were raised in and now cling to so that you can bash people of faith.

Read LIBERATION THEOLOGY.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[skater314159]

99. Your response is supposed to do what?

If it is trying to defend your lie that you can read Koine, it is transparent that from your anger and attacks that you know nothing but hate and fear.

You are making yourself look like an ignorant ass. Is that what you intended?

I stand by my statement, and your anger tells me I hit a significant nerve... you need to grow past the fear and anger that you learned as a child from your family.

It is apparent from your hate-speech-filled response that your anger and fear owns you, while you are so deluded you think you own your emotions.

I recommend therapy before your ego and hate destroy you completely.

[theredpen]

100. If read Koine, why is your interpretion of the verses so inept?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5106180&mesg_id=5108949

Edit: And for someone who knows so many languages, you certainly can't express yourself in English very well. "buttchunk"?

[bridgit]

27. They were 'changing money' for scape-goats/doves inside not just 'the' temple...

But within His/Jesus' Father's House bringing worldly lies, misrepresentation & ways therein...not good, and yeah, the practice upset Jesus very much seeing His Father's House tainted so.

When will we see Rev. Jeremiah Wright's Africa? We see his America everywhere. He needs to generate some righteous indignation against what Africa is doing to herself within *his* house i.e. Dafur, Hotel Rwanda, plagues, famine, unchecked suffering, greed, corruption, dislocation, etc.

People of European descent are not the only ones capable of rank behaviors upon other people. This is a contentious world in that regard.

To preach around one's contribution to such sorrows, is to stick that splinter into your own eye.

[Bluerthanblue]

71. You might want to do some serious research into the history of Africa-

And the effects of "White Colonialism" on the Native peoples.

Did you know for example, that Kenya, the nation where Obama's father was born, had not become an INDEPENDENT NATION free of British domination until 1963?

That white colonial rule that entered into Kenya early in 1900's in the guise of "missionaries", "corporations" and 'explorers' gave themselves power and took the highlands for themselves, and denied the Africans their civil rights until the "Mau Mau" rebellion against the British rule in the 1950's?

It is too easy to turn a blind eye to the oppression of Native People's by predominantly WHITE EUROPEAN FORCES throughout the world. To sanitize their 'conquests' and justify the atrocities that have been committed against others, in the name of "progress"- "piety"- and "patriotism". When in reality, Colonization was in many instances a slow kind of genocide.

Ask the Native Americans, the Indians, the S.Africans, the Inuit, the etc. etc. etc.


Where do the people in Africa get their weapons from? Who profits by the sale of them? Who buys the diamonds and gold, the uranium being mined?

The responsibility for what is going on in many of the Nations of Africa must be carefully considered. The 'white europeans' bear a substantial share of it.


peace~

[theredpen]

You make a good point, but...

...what makes you think that Rev. Wright has not spoken out on these issues?

[BlackVelvet04]

43. Jeremiah Wright isn't Jesus.....

Jesus didn't beat them with a whip. He overturned the tables and drove out the animals that were to be sacrificed.

[theredpen]

76. Rev. Wright is preaching the path of revolution

Jesus was a revolutionary. He was divisive in his time. He was ultimately lynched by those in power for being uppity.

[skater314159]

85. Correct...

He overturned the tables where they were selling items - at very high rates, seeking to make a high profit margin to fund the Temple Treasury. This was especially wrong, as people would have to travel from throught the region to worship at the Temple, and they could not bring animals necessarry for sacrafice with them on the trip; these individuals (who were often peasants) would have to buy their animals for sacrafice at the Temple. Charging high prices were robbing the poor who wanted to worship God, instead of having mercy on them and making it easy for them to worship God.

This would be like if a modern preacher or social activist stormed a "Prosperity Gospel" Church today and overturned the collection plates that the working poor, single mothers, welfare recipients, elderly and other disadvantaged peoples put into a plate that lines the coffers of a rich man who drives a Lexus and lives in a McMansion.

It is not "violence", it is an act of Revolution - and an act that more "Comfortable Christians" and followers of the "Prosperity Gospel" need to heed.

[Bluerthanblue]

68. He didn't beat the moneychangers, he trashed their business-

He ran them out of the temple. There is no scriptural evidence that Jesus ever raised his hand in violence against any man or woman.

Not in self-defense, not in anger, not in revenge.

Love CAN make us angry. But it is how we DEAL with the anger that makes us 'followers of Christ' or just more of the same.


peace~

[DemVet]

106. Agreed. The others who say Jesus was into violence don't...

...know what they are talking about.

[cali]

5. Oh, for the love of rationality.

Wright did not preach hate. A few soundbites reflecting the frustration and anger of the AA community do not a proper reflection of 40 years in the pulpit make.

[indimuse]

6. I don't think

you'll be able to convince me that what I witnessed was not based some form of hate...from past emotional experiences..he brings that to his sermons and I find THAT sad.

[cali]

11. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else with a closed mind.

[indimuse]

13. not close minded...thanks for the compliment!

Observation cali.

[ampad]

32. No one is going to be able to convice you of shit

Faux outrage again, better check that blood pressure. I'm sure you didn't think what that Fearro clown said was racist as all. Geesh did you all just crawl from under your rocks this morning. I could of swore I had all you desperate Wright is wrong Hillary supporters on ignore. Damn!

[indimuse]

33. see?

hate.

[Forkboy]

69. Your subject line here would have been enough.

[indimuse]

9. and you could have a least given me a rec

for this...I'm trying. wink..lol.

[leftofcool]

17. a few?

"Black girls are "raped" in Africa but white American girls who go to other countries and get raped are "looking for it."

[indimuse]

20. Natalee Holloway..

I know...sad.

[CatsDogsBabies]

7. Remember

even Jesus got angry at the money changers in the Temple. There really is a place or righteous indignation. To expect the group that was wronged to bear the burden for the group that did the wrong is just crazy. The wrongdoer has to be held accoutable for real reconciliation to take place. I am sure you don't expect all groups or individuals just to "take it," because it is "loving" to allow yourself to be denied what is due you just because you are human. DO you think women in an abusive relationship should just forgive because this is the loving thing to do? CHurches used to preach this and according to your own logic, this is the way any good wife should win over her husband. Right, any good wife would just take it and forgive because how will healing begin any other way. The racism on this board is appalling.

[SunsetDreams]

8. So you're saying....

that Wright shouldn't feel the way he does?

Is it right to judge him? What happened to not judging, lest ye be judged?

Who are we to tell him that he should just love all his cares away...

Love might help, but in order to get there, you have to try and understand how he got there in the first place.

Without understanding for people's differences there can be no love.

At any rate, the clips everyone saw are based on what 5 minutes? 36 years of sermons reduced to 5 minutes. WOW!

This sermon here is more like what Barack heard all these years in that church:

http://www.preachingtoday.com/sermons/sermons/audacityofhope.html

[indimuse]

19. Of coures I'm nOT saying he shouldn't feel

the way he does...But..I am questioning how he chooses to use his WORDS his Pulpit tp teach...
He has every right to feel anyway he feels. I FEEL he is concentrating on negative past emotions and sharing that message when he could approach this in a less acerbic manner.

[earthlover]

15. Yes love can overcome hate

Your talk about forgiveness, healing, being a uniter, not a divider. NOble sentiments.

Maybe I am imagining things. But it sems there is a lot of hate directed towards Reverend Wright. Not much forgiveness either. And a lot of divisive rhetoric.

I don't particularly like Wright's style. For that matter, I don't like the style of the secretive group The Fellowship that Hillary has been a member of for 15 years, which has many hyper conservative members including a former head of the militant anti-abortion group Operation Rescue.

But I don't see a lot of folks berating Hillary for her choice of spiritual advisers and prayer groups. Even though most of us don't like the violence of Operation Rescue.

If you don't like Pastor Wright's church or his style....then don't friggin go to his church!!!

But if we are going to call for love and forgiveness and lack of divisiveness....best to look into our own heart instead of being hateful, nonforgiving and divisive about others who we can look down on.

[SunsetDreams]

16. I guess this white lady here....

thinks that church is all about hate too:eyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioaChVw_pUw

[indimuse]

22. Love is NOT Black OR White!

I don't care who she is...Rev Wright is the one stirring anger.

[SunsetDreams]

25. exactly...

but you all claim this is a hate filled racist church...guess the white lady in the video doesn't agree

You don't care to hear from people who actually go there and have for years?

You choose to judge on a few sound bites?

[indimuse]

29. I have seen multitude of clips from many years...

I guess my point again...why would Obama hide Rev Wright from the public if he felt his message was All inclusive? and NOT divisve..?

[SunsetDreams]

30. Do you see all Presidential Candidates

bring their pastors with them when they speak?

Seperation of Church and State, that's the idea

[indimuse]

31. how many Presidential candidates title their books after their Pastor's

sermon..?

[SunsetDreams]

35. Did you even read the Sermon?

When he wrote that book he wasn't a Pres. Candidate, and even if he was big deal. It is a phrase.

I linked to it above

[CatsDogsBabies]

45. Maybe

Obama just thought "The Audacity of Hope" sounded like a snappy title and wanted to make sure he said where he got the title. Who cares that the title came from a sermon? Why does this even matter?

[indimuse]

65. relevance.

relevance to what Obama has said. He claims he never heard these outrages from the Rev...really? Do you believe Barack when he says in 20 years his ears have never heard rants as such?

[Voice for Peace]

58. But the ones who are getting angry aren't the ones who go to his church.

Isn't that a bit curious?

[DemGa]

21. "He would not try to hide him away" --- Wow, great point! ---NT

[SunsetDreams]

23. You want love and forgiveness?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FsqDTVmlKk&feature=user

March 15th in the face of attacks, he still shows why he is a uniter.

[indimuse]

24. please don't try to sell Obama to me.

I've seen enough.

[SunsetDreams]

26. not trying to...

because I can see the love and forgiveness you speak of is not big enough for everyone

[Kahuna]

41. What you and your ilk fail to understand is how Obama's message of

putting the struggles of the past behind is quite consistant with his relationship with Rev. Wright. Obama plans to be a healer unlike hillary who will step any anybody and everybody to get what she wants.

[Kahuna]

34. When you walk in Rev Wright's shoes then you have the right to judge.

Until then you need to chill. I have the feeling that you are totally clueless about what would make Rev. Wright speak the way he does. A lot of people black and white feel exactly the same way but because they aren't public figures it doesn't matter. The only mistake Rev Wright made is saying it in public.

[SunsetDreams]

37. exactly...

believe me, when we went into Iraq and have continued our occupation there, there have been a few choice words I have had to say about America

But that doesn't mean I am unpatriotic...I am just against who has the reins right now.

Either Dem will get my vote in Nov. This election is too important for our Country.

[indimuse]

40. No. I have not walked in his...nor him in mine!

Not judgement..but simple observation.Pain belongs to everybody. To stand up in a pulpit and rage against ALL whites..I'm sorry.. I don't see how that heals anyboy's pain...anybody!

[Kahuna]

44. Whew! Lost your cool huh! Guess I pushed the right button. nt

[indimuse]

49. no.no cool lost...

:)

[stillcool]

84. Obviously...

you can't see much at all. You take minutes out of a lifetime and condemn a human being, because of your offended senses. Your arrogance blinds you.

[Blue Diadem]

36. Obama is about that love

You ask where is the love from Rev. Wright, but I ask where is the love that you speak about? If you are going to preach it here, then perhaps you should show it.

From your own post:
Dividers point fingers -Stir the hate pot and remove love and forgiveness to ADD more fear and pain
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obama realizes the man grew up in another era..maybe just maybe Obama is trying to bring people together so that pain and hurt can be healed and the love can grow. Maybe it is Obama that is teaching Rev. Wright and the rest of us about that love.

[SunsetDreams]

38. excellent post!

If I could rec that post I would!

Thank you, you get it.

[indimuse]

42. IF this is true..then why would Obama reject his statements and HIDE Rev Wright from the public?

I don't understand.

[CatsDogsBabies]

50. Where did he hide him?

[Kahuna]

46. Exactly!!! People don't get that fact. Obama is the bridge between

the past that the Rev. Wrights are still fighting and what is possible when we are allowed to put race in the dust bin of history. Unfortunately, billary won't let us do that. They can only win by using race to appeal to rednecks.

[indimuse]

48. Billary?

ok..

[Kahuna]

56. Yes. Like Ben-ifer, Bran-jolina. Billary. nt

[indimuse]

67. oh. like: MiCrack...

I get it...duh!

[Kahuna]

72. Your racism is on display honey. That's twice you blew your cool...

Really, it doesn't take much, does it?

[indimuse]

74. getting tired of the racist thing...

MiCrack does NOT imply racism...Billary hater!

[Kahuna]

83. It does. And it applies to anyone using the term, MiCrack.

I put the person who came up with it on ignore weeks ago. After I'm through with this thread you will be on ignore too.

[indimuse]

93. tear.

.

[NorthernSpy]

104. Billary can kiss MiCrack!

(Stolen, but not by me. Hat tip to Meldread, I think.)

[shayes51]

54. But that has not been his response to this issue.

You can't put your own words and thoughts into Obama. His response is to deny he knew about these statements and to feign shock and dismay. No credibility, no integrity.

[Blue Diadem]

101. I really don't think I am. Here's his interview with Cooper,

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/03/15/cooper.obama.pastor.intv.cnn

It's a 12 minute interview, pay close attention to the last 5 & 1/2 minutes of that interview.

[Window]

39. Wright is right.

[indimuse]

47. I think he is right about some of what he has said...yes.

But he is WRONG to air it in church as minister of Christ. And use this place to insult people like the Clinton's..innocent "WHITES"...and let's remember...NOT all evil men are white.

[Kahuna]

53. A little progress. I agree that Church is an inappropriate place to air

that kind of rhetoric. I'm assuming that children were present and they didn't need to hear those things in those terms. Where I still have a problem with you is your assessment that he was railing against all white people. I have yet to get that from what he said. The guilty parties know who they are. Of course it doesn't apply to all white people. And like you said, all evil men are not white.

But, with bill and hillary's recent behavior I certainly would not consider them to be "innocent."

[Manifestor_of_Light]

66. Church is an inappropriate place for anyone with self-esteem.

Since they call everyone a sinner who is human. Terribly damaging to the human spirit. We all do wrong things but no finite human deserves to be condemned to an eternal hell.

You can't punish somebody by burning them in hell if they don't have a physical body anymore.

It's all stories to me.

[skater314159]

88. You aren't familiar with all sects of Christianity...

... not all of them "call everyone a sinner who is human"... that is largely the work of people who accept Augustine's writings.

Eastern Orthodox say "Jesus became man so that men may become Gods."

Your bigotry shows that you can't mature past the hate you learned in some evangelical or Baptist Church growing up. Isn't it time you let go and grew? It's ironic you mention "self-esteem" when you are obviously seeking validation and affirmation for your hatred.

Clue: this is a LIBERAL message board, those whom you really want to vent on - the fundamentalists who gave you the emotional damage you now carry around to vent on innocents - aren't here. Go elsewhere to spew your hatred and bigotry.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

102. All Christian churches subscribe to Original Sin, do they not?

All Christian churches use Original Sin as their starting premise, I believe. Do they not? Your statement says that people cannot advance spiritually without Jesus providing substitutionary atonement. Even if you skipped original sin and went to substitutionary atonement, that still means that humans are not fully capable humans without Jesus, in your view.

That doctrine says that we are all sinners because we are human. No exceptions.

We all make mistakes but I do not appreciate the faulty premise that because we are human, we are sinners, and therefore we need substitutionary atonement from Jesus.

People who believe that humans can achieve great things without a god are humanists.

It's like advertising. It sets up a false need, and then satisfies it.

We all make mistakes and fall short of perfection, but it does not mean we should be hounded with unearned guilt and shame by the idea of God as a cosmic snoop who judges our every thought and feeling.

Read John Bradshaw, Ph.D. "Healing the Shame that Binds You". He was a Catholic priest for almost a decade. He goes into the wounding that Christianity deals out in great detail, and the obsessive-compulsive behaviors people indulge in to escape their pain.

The Bible is sexist (women are not to preach, they are to keep their mouths shut) as well as racist (supports slavery), thanks to Paul's writings, and much of the Old Testament. So I wouldn't give any minister a pass. It was all edited by a bureaucracy at the Council of Nicea to solidify the organization's political power. They took out everything that would have empowered individuals, which is standard procedure for any bureaucracy. They all strive to take away the individual's power by force or by consent. The government, the church, the schools -- all of them.

Under "church" I would include all three Abrahamic religions.



A psychotic god is a terrible role model. No thanks.

[skater314159]

103. No. Not ALL sects begin with "original sin". nor do those that do...

... interpret it like you do. Where did I say "sustitutionary atonement"? Hint: I DIDN'T, as that is not part of my personal theology. Your reading it into my post tells me about you and your personal theology however.

You likely come from a fundamentalist or conservative upbringing, and it is likely that upbringing was heavily Calvinist - with an empasis on TULIP.

I doubt you are even capableof understanding Orthodoxy, or Mystical Theology, as it does not focus on substitutionary atonement or the sinfullness of human beings. As I stated in my first post (which you obviously could or did not read) "Jesus became man so that men may become Gods". Divinization does not require substitutionary atonement in some sects of the Orthodox and Christian faith.

You really need to learn before you bash... and Googling isn't learning, it's just ctrl+c and ctrl+v -ing without your absorbing anything.

Also, you seem really bothered by the doctrine of "original sin", but you demand that everyone believe it. Why?

Why can't you find what you believe, and be secure enough in that, so that you don't have to bash others in internet forums just to feel good about yourself?

Wouldn't that make you a lot happier? Or do you not even know what happy is, so you want others to be as miserable as you?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

108. You tell me then.

What does "Jesus became man so that men could become Gods" mean? That man is crippled and unable to advance spiritually without believing in Jesus as the Messiah? That's what I take from a plain reading of that statement.


You said Orthodoxy does not "focus on substitutionary atonement or the sinfullness of human beings". So what does that mean? You said "does not focus", not "does not believe in those two ideas". I thought Christianity was always about the fall of Adam and Eve (conveniently blaming Eve for all the ills of mankind, when it's a parable) and Jesus atoning for the sins of humanity. They were punished for following their nature, which was curiosity. How charming of God to mess up like that with his own creations.


I'm a secular humanist now. So I find morality and meaning without obsessing over Jesus or "salvation", whatever that means. The further I stay away from the Abrahamic faiths the better I do. I don't need a sky-daddy to protect me from the people who are different from me, or to encourage me to do good while I'm alive by rewarding me with a heaven. Freud said that man created god as an expression of his psychological needs for a sky-daddy. The idea that the concept of an infinite creative spirit is embodied in a grumpy old man with a white beard, a spirit and a man miraculously born on earth is ridiculous.


I have no use for the ridiculous stories and conflicts in the Bible. It was all written at different times -- pre-Exile, post-Exile, many different times, and none of the NT was contemporaneous with the alleged life of Jesus. A lot of the Old Testament is history; but much of it is also nonsensical. And then there are mistranslations, misinterpretations and literalism and believing two contradictory things at the same time. The church fathers didn't quite edit out everything they didn't like. Lilith the disobedient woman is still there.

Jesus has all the same characteristics as Mithra or Apollo, and all the Christian holidays have been stolen from pagans and taken over. Christmas is about the Winter Solstice and the return of the sun from its southernmost point three days later; Easter is named after the goddess Ostara; goddess worship was concealed as adoration of Mary, because of the insistence by male leaders on the all-male Trinity. The people had to have a goddess of some kind to venerate for balance. Even the Great Flood was written about in the Epic of Gilgamesh, long before Jesus supposedly lived.
Joseph Campbell wrote about all this long ago.

The non-canonical gospels were thrown out because they had radical and empowering ideas in them.

I have nothing to add to the criticism of it because Mark Twain said it all long ago in "Letters From the Earth" and "The Mysterious Stranger".

Ever heard of the Crusades? That's what the Abrahamic religions have done for centuries. Slaughter each other and any other heathen that gets in their way. All for nothing. They'll even kill each other over the difference between transubstantiation and consubstantiation. I do have admiration for the Jewish tradition of focusing on the here and now, and on valuing knowledge and education.

All this ridiculous doctrine and these unworkable rules for the 21st century are why lots of people say "I'm spiritual but not religious". The morality of a bunch of desert nomads of 2,000-5,000 years ago are not sufficient to deal with the great advances in human knowledge about the physical world, biology and human nature. And those advances in science and knowledge were stifled and opposed for centuries by the Church.



I'd keep the Sermon on the Mount and throw nearly all the rest of it away.

[skater314159]

109. Easy.

"Jesus became men so that men can become Gods" means that Orthodoxy views Jesus like many Eastern Religions and Philosophies - take Mahayana Buddhism for example, where Jesus is a Bodhisattvah - view him. His enlightenment is meant to be an example to us... we can be just as peaceful, enlightened and Divinized as he is. He is more than human in the same way you and I can be more than human if we are only willing to move beyond our own restrictions for ourselves, and to break free of the bonds that hold us down.

You cannot even see it that way, because as you stated, you always read certain assumptions into texts - whether they are intended to be read that way or not.

Your primary assumption is that ALL men and women are inherently evil, and that ALL men and women are sinners. It might make you a happier person, and it might make you more respectful of others' faiths if you realised that NOT ALL RELIGIONS have that starting point - not even all CHRISTIANS believe that. Jews (whose book the Torah is!) vehemently denounce those interpretations, as do Eastern and Byzantine Chrisitans. Gnostics - who up until recently have been persecuted and killed for their faith, but who are now enjoying a renaissance of sorts - also do not begin at that point. (But Gnostics are rather hard to talk about here, as they have a great variety among groups and sects, with each having different perspectives and beliefs... I'll spare you the monotonous details).

Have you ever heard of textual criticism or true archaeology? Not the kind of "archaeology" where you try to "prove" the bible is "right" or whatever - but archaeology where one attempts to understand the people and culture that produced the texts we have today... I want to know what it was like to be in the Levant during the Iron Age... I am not afraid of the truth, and you seem to think that knowing what I know, and what other scholars know, somehow makes faith impossible.

As for your comment about Mithras and Apollo - I suppose that you had never heard of Mystery Religions, Mithraism (Augustine was a Mithraist!), Pheobus Apollo, the Elysian Mysteries or Dionusian Rituals before you saw "The God That Wasn't There". Poor you, I have know about these things, and to me they pose no threat to my faith. I am a Hellenist... and I am a member of a Mystery Religion. Why is that a problem? Unless your faith is not strong to begin with, the fact that others don't believe like you isn't a problem. I feel that if Christianity had sought to be a Mystery Religion within the Hellenistic and Roman world, without seeking to be a Religion of Empire (after Constantine gave it his support, of course) we could have avoided the slaughter you mention... which would have been good for everyone involved. Would you still have a valid bitch about religion then? Can't say for sure.

I know that the Bible is composed of texts from different times and periods - and this is something people have been comfortable with since Julius Wellhausen revised earlier theories of textual criticism of the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. As an aside, currently I am finishing my dissertation on just that subject and how the different texts relate to different periods of material culture and social development within the ancient levant region - why should that hinder my faith?

Once again, this part of your post shows that you are overly attached to a particular sect of Christianity - likely the one in which you were raised... I am guessing that this sect was very conservative, emphasized human limitations and sin, and stressed the "inerrant, uncorruptable" nature of the Bible, a typical American Protestantism, I suppose. I am sorry that you (and millions of others) had to experience this, as it has harmed your ability to appreciate faith, religions, and mysticism. I know that you were raised in some sort of "fundamentalism" because of this quote from your original post:

What does "Jesus became man so that men could become Gods" mean? That man is crippled and unable to advance spiritually without believing in Jesus as the Messiah? That's what I take from a plain reading of that statement.

You used the phrase "plain reading" - a dead giveaway. Only Christian Fundamentalists from America are fixated on "plain readings" of text that ignore deeper levels of textual criticism such as allegorical, metaphorical, and mystical ones.

Another giveaway that you need to shed your fundamentalist past? Here:

You said Orthodoxy does not "focus on substitutionary atonement or the sinfullness of human beings". So what does that mean? You said "does not focus", not "does not believe in those two ideas". I thought Christianity was always about the fall of Adam and Eve (conveniently blaming Eve for all the ills of mankind, when it's a parable) and Jesus atoning for the sins of humanity. They were punished for following their nature, which was curiosity. How charming of God to mess up like that with his own creations.

This is yet another sign that you think everyone takes the Biblical narrative literally and negatively. I'd recommend you get to your local JCC or Reform Synagogue and ask the Rabbi there (you won't be under any obligation to join, Jews are just happy to explain this stuff to people eager to learn) and ask how modern Liberal Jews interpret these texts... as it is in no way close to what you just said. You also should talk to a liberation theologian, because Christianity ISN'T always about the fall and the salvation/atonement of Christ.

(I could have a whole post on the terms you use to talk about "the fall" and "atonement" and how that shows your particular faith tradition and biases - as not all Christians use those terms or even have those meanings within their philosophy or theology - but I will spare you the monotony.)

At least you know what the Sermon on the Mount is - I've had fundamentalist Christians tell me that I had made up that whole Pericope as Jesus wasn't a "filthy, Marxist, son of a bitch" (honest! they said that!) - so you can see that Christianity does have it's merits. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shelby_Spong">Maybe you should read upon Bishop Spong - who is an non-theist who addresses many of the issues you cite in your post.

You don't have to keep what doesn't work for you... after all there are a great many other ways of thinking out there... if only you are bold enough to think them.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

111. I'm not keeping what doesn't work for me.

I said I was a secular humanist. Did you not get that?

I have read about Eastern Orthodoxy and it seems that they have a slightly different interpretation of the fall of man, but they still think the resurrection of Jesus is necessary for the salvation of humanity. That looks like the same basic concept to me as substitutionary atonement. I have not read anything about Eastern Orthodoxy that says that Jesus is considered to be a bodhisattva, equal in importance to Buddha, Krishna or other enlightened beings. What I have read about Eastern Orthodoxy is pretty much the same trinity and virgin birth story that other Christians believe.

I am well aware that Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists do not accept original sin and substitutionary atonement.

I know who Bishop John Shelby Spong is and I have read about the vicious criticism he's taken from other Anglicans. I think he is definitely trying to modernize the church but it looks like the mainstream Anglicans want no part of his theology. That's too bad. He can say he's still a Christian but they won't accept him. I'm sure they'd love to excommunicate him if they could.

I was not raised as a fundamentalist. I was raised as a Presbyterian and graduated from a Presbyterian university. They are liberal and well educated.

My problem is with the people who decide they are going to "share their faith" with me whether I want it or not. It started when I was in high school and I ran into some glazed-over Jesus freaks. Later it was Jews for Jesus and the general increase in vociferous and emboldened fundies. I resent people who don't mind their own business and I tell them I am not interested. I've even had Methodists get nosy and tell me I should believe the way they do. I thought Methodists were liberal, but I guess I was wrong.

It does no good to explain to these people what a Unitarian Universalist is. They are horrified and scream, "BUT ARE THEY KEEE-RIST-YIAN???
My answer is "Ya got a problem with that?"


Today I got home and there was a black woman in granny shoes standing in front of my front door. She asked me if I wanted to go to a "celebration of Jesus Christ" and I said "Do you see the 'No Soliciting' sign on my door?" and she said yes. I walked past her and unlocked my door and went in without saying anything else. I assume she cannot comprehend English. She was a JW. She and her two friends got in their car and left my street shortly thereafter.

There is also a 'no soliciting' sign as you enter our neighborhood, but people act like they don't know what soliciting means. I guess they are illiterate. Signs don't do a damn bit of good.

"What are laws to sons of God?" -- Frederick Nietzsche

I am SICK AND TIRED of hearing about Jesus from obsessed people. I am not alone. That's why the atheists are writing best-selling books and fighting back with rationality. Mark Twain and Bertrand Russell would be proud.

:banghead:

[skater314159]

119. Well...

...until you read about Orthodoxy in Arabic, Coptic, Russain or Greek, you're just reading someone else's translation of an interpretation... there aren't really good non-biased translations of it in modern English, unfortunately. Most of what is written about it is for American Protestants to understand, and leaves out most or all of the mystical theology - and the mystical theology is the basis of the life and worship itself.

You need to read more about Bishop Spong, as he is a vibrant part of the Episcopal Church in America - which while in the Anglican Communion, is much more liberal than the rest of the English Church. Parishes throughout the US that don't agree with him also don't think women can be ordained/hold positions of authority, and those parishes don't accept homosexuals as clergy or laity - and most of them have broken communion with the ECUSA and are now answering to Nigerian and Ugandan Bishops. The conservatives are the ones who are the minority in the ECUSA in America.

As for the "no soliciting" sign... I had to add "NO PROSYLETIZING!" to one that my father had put up in his yard. That is something that they can understand.

Also, I have found that making your own pamphlets to pass out will stem the tide of people coming to your door sharing literature. It seems that they don't want to read what someone else has to pass out - especially if it is an informative pamphlet on major world religions other than Christianity. It is important that you talk to them with the understanding "I will take your pamphlet ONLY if you take AND READ mine".

I guess they are illiterate. Signs don't do a damn bit of good.

Yeah, that's what I hate most about America... people here don't bother to read ANYTHING... even when it is in the ONLY language they speak/know!

[theredpen]

110. The Crusades and the Sermon on the Mount

The Crusades were a territorial dispute. Religion turned out to be a convenient distinction on which to predicate war.

"I'd keep the Sermon on the Mount"

Well, at least you have good taste in sermons. :)

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

107. Black churches served (and still do) a roll in the Civil Rights Movement

Of course, if you want to muffle them you can attack their church.

Civil Rights Movement

Black churches held a leadership role in the American Civil Rights Movement. Their history as a centers of strength for the black community made them natural leaders in this moral struggle. In addition they had often served as links between the black and white worlds. Notable minister-activists included Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., Ralph David Abernathy, Bernard Lee, Fred Shuttlesworth, and C.T. Vivian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_church

right now, this serves Hillary and keeps people distracted away from
her tax returns, white house records, Bills library donations from Saudis,
and more.

[shayes51]

52. Then Obama should embrace his statements.

[SunsetDreams]

61. There you all go...

once again telling Barack what he should and shouldn't do

He does one thing, you're not happy

He does another thing, you're not happy

Let's just face it, no matter what he does, he can't do anything right in your eyes

It's hard to live up to perfection, and I find it implorable that a pastor is being hated for a few sound bites, implorable in the face of all reason to show otherwise, ie people who do actually go to that church, that people here haven't even gone too, but yet are willing to reduce this man's lifes work to God, down to soundbites of a few minutes.

Barack denounced and rejected his statements, when is it ever enough?

Barack is not responsible for everything everyone has ever said in his life.

What matters is how he handles it, and he has handled it just fine.

[shayes51]

51. Absolutely he knew. This is not about what

his preacher said. It's about what Barack Obama said. In denying knowledge and pretending shock at these statements, Obama loses credibility.

[SunsetDreams]

57. The credibility for the arguement

gets lost when one assumes that Barack "knew" and you just "know" that he was there, and you just "know" he was pretending shock

[shayes51]

59. If he were not there

and no one in the congregation mentioned the statements to Obama or his wife, then these kinds of statements were commonplace. Do you honestly believe Obama never heard such statements from Wright in the 20 years he has known him?

[indimuse]

62. exactly one of my points!

!

[SunsetDreams]

63. since I wasn't there...

and I see other's statements of people who do actually go there, that do in fact back Barack up at his word

I choose not to assume they are lying...

[Celebration]

60. hate to break the news to you guys

People go to church because their friends are there, and it is a community--because there are children's programs, basketball leagues, etc.

My minister has said tons of things that I don't buy. You don't just up and leave a church because .001% of things the minister says are controversial.

[shayes51]

64. Your response would have been a good one for Obama

rather than what he said. He said he did not know. Not credible.

[Kahuna]

73. Most these people making judgements have stepped foot one in a church

in many years if ever.

[kwassa]

117. the harshest critics seem to be those who've never been in church

[izzybeans]

70. Google Liberation Theology.

and have a nice day.

[theredpen]

78. Right on!

And have a nice Palm Sunday — if you're into that kinda thing. :D

[izzybeans]

98. Not really but that is a good touch for anyone who is.

I like it.

[rodeodance]

81. Wright is divisive. BO says he wants to transcend racial politics. Bo has failed.

[stillcool]

82. You are Wrong...

Who are you? What gives you the right to judge a man's life by a piece of a sermon? What would you know of his sermons on forgiveness? What would you know about his sermons on Love? What would you know about his life? You seem to have a very high opinion of yourself. I so wish we could shine the spotlight on an hour in your life and judge you by it.

[Vinca]

87. The OP needs to read more black history to appreciate where

the pastor is coming from. The "God is love, Jesus is love" notion is laughable at best. More hatred comes out of religion than anywhere else.

[Rabrrrrrr]

89. That's right - those uppity fucking black people should just MOVE ON AND DEAL WITH IT.

They have NOTHING to be angry about, now that the great white messiahs have trained them how to behave in proper society, and given them language and taught them how to wear clothing.

:eyes:

Jesus - you don't know anything about the prophetic tradition of the Bible, OR of the black experience in this country, do you?

Goddamn. I have rarely read anything that inspires such anger as your post has.

Yes, you're right - anyone who is oppressed should shut the fuck up and only say things that don't make you feel uncomfortable/.



Jesus fucking Christ. :mad: :grr:

[citizen snips]

90. Wright makes his living on indoctrinating his congregation.

I am sure he is well off financially.

[Serenades]

91. Black People's Thoughts

Until you walk in our shoes you have no right tell us shit about how we should feel or what we should preach. We've had genocide perpetrated against us, jim crow, school to prison system, third world type poverty, rampid violence, rape, slavery, deprived of education, prevented from voting, hurricane katrina, tuskegee experiments, jim crow jr., etc. All this in a short span of 150 years.

Don't you think we have a right to be pissed?

How do we forgive sins that are still being committed against us?

[indimuse]

94. certainly.

But NOT in a church! unless of course they pay Uncle Sam...you know taxes!

[texas_indy]

114. Sorry, but YOU don't define HOW minorities run THEIR CHURCHES..

nor do YOU define their interpretation of the BIBLE, nor how they run THEIR services!

I guess it sucks for some people to know that minorities DON"T turn the other cheek anymore to the injustices done to them and don't give a free pass to those who have beaten them down in the past and continue to do so now.

Gosh darn it, then coloreds got free and now they act like they don't want to be like them thar white people! They sure are ungrateful.

[PetraPooh]

92. I was raised to think as shallow-ly as you do, then I worked for H&W in East Texas

My eyes were opened then to the rank racial prejudice and impossible situations that most blacks in the south have to deal with. It is MUCH WORSE than the hardships of the average or below average white person has to experience or bootstrap themselves up from.

[NorthernSpy]

95. In the name of love, give it a shove!

Bliss-ninny tripe.

[PerfectSage]

96. In the name of love; I absolve you of the sin of supporting a mediocre candidate.

:hi:

[Jed Dilligan]

113. Dr. Bronner! You're still alive!

[CitizenRob]

115. Wright is wrong... because he believes in god in the first place.

Clearly incapable of rational thought it's hardly a surprise he made irrational statements.

[LanternWaste]

118. A time and a place for all things...

John 2:13-17 (also Matthew 21:12-13, Mark 11:15-18, Luke 19:45-46)
He scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"

Mark 3:1-6
He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

This is not unusual behavior for Jesus. He throws people out of a room so he can heal a child, and then he “strictly ordered” witnesses of the miracle to keep quiet (Mark 5:40, 43). He and Peter get into a fight, each rebuking the other (Mark 8:32-33). Jesus becomes exasperated with a crowd and his disciples: “You faithless generation, how much longer must I be among you? How much longer must I put up with you?” (Mark 9:19). He curses a fig tree (Mark 11:13-14). He drives people out of the temple area (with a whip, according to John 2:15), overturning tables, and physically intimidating people to prevent their passing through (Mark 11:15-17).



A time and a place for all things... including it would seem, anger on His part.