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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:22 PM
Original message
I like Hillary more than when this campaign began
I'm not much bothered by the incoming flak from either side, whether it be positioning for delegates in Florida, firing someone for intemperate remarks, indignantly asking someone to release their tax returns or denigrating an opponent's foreign policy bona fides.

It's politics. It's not much different than a lot of other elections past, no matter how much whining to the contrary. It's fun to debate the ballgame on message boards, but that's all it really is: a ballgame.

This is the first time that we've had the gender issuse and the race issue to deal with in the same national campaign. No woman or African American man has ever been such a serious contender for our nomination. Given our national culture and the hot button topics of both race and gender, there was bound to be a lot of skirmishing on these issues and resulting finger pointing and indignation.

Some of us believe Clinton has race baited and run a campaign designed to tear down her opponent. Some of us believe Obama has race baited and run a campaign designed to smear his opponent.

In the long run, it doesn't matter. Whatever the true motives of either side's tacticians, both candidates are attempting to make a case to the American public based on their own merits.

There is not much to distinguish the differences in policy between our two contenders. There is not much daylight between them.

There is not much character-wise to differentiate between the two: they are both ambitious, and they are both politicians, meaning at times, they both have a loose relationship with the truth. (and yes, I realize this goes against the Obama supporters narrative that Hillary is a crook and Barack is a resurrection of all that is holy, but I personally think that is so naive and wrongheaded as to be laughable).

So, we have to look at the attitudinal differences between the two. Their style, the way they approach problem solving and the way they would approach the job of President.

Obama, he tells us, is a conciliator. He wants to reach across the aisle, triangulate with the Republicans and come up with compromises in the name of getting things done. His is a message of unity. Reaching out to our Republican counterparts will result in a new way, an era of good feeling and productive bipartisan cooperation.

Clinton's approach is different. She is highly partisan and makes no bones about her feelings about Republicans and what they've done to this country. Hers is a far more confrontational approach, but history tells us that hyperpartisanship is the stuff great Presidents are made of (it is also, conversely some of the stuff of our biggest failures). She is an ideologue and a political animal at the same time, so on the face of it, her message can appear political, cut and fashioned to appeal to the widest swath of focus group approval.

But, the heart of her, the essence of who she is, is her partisanship, her intelligence, and her relentless, dogged determination to pursue this nomination, fighting against preconceived perceptions, fighting against a press predisposed to hate anything Clinton, even at times fighting against being sabotaged by her own husband.

When this process started out, I favored Biden. Hillary seemed to me a very, very bright career politician. When Joe dropped out, and I swung her way, I started paying a lot more attention to how she faces the brutal day to dayness of this campaign.

And that's when I began to be more impressed.

I want a President who will never, ever give up in fighting for progressive ideals. I want a President who will only compromise when absolutely necessary, not one who starts the bargaining process having rhetorically already given away half the ground to the opposition.

Hillary, for me, has the characteristics that make her more likely to be that President.

This is a woman who never gives up. She is tough as nails. The Obama supporters hate that trait in her, I know.

But, I think it's the single essential ingredient giving her a shot at becoming a truly great President.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think Hillary will make a great Vice President. n/t
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. I don't think Obama would make a good VP
OR President. Nope. That is the UNTHINKABLE.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
32. He likes being "mentored" but
I don't see him accepting the position were it to be available. I think he might find it beneath him.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. yeah
he wants it all or nothing. Ugh.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. The prince ascends
.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #38
51. It's the second coming of Jesus
:rofl:
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #51
69. It is the voce of god himself
....speaking in the tongues of politicians.

We are SAVED from sin.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. LOL!
The holy Messiah who is going to SAVE THE WORLD. Ugh....:puke:
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DerekJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #71
84. my first IGNOOOOOREEEE
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #84
162. "Vote for Hillary, Dittoheads..." said Rush Limpballs
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #162
176. Yet Obama brags that republicans vote for him...
If republicans vote for Hillary they are evil, but if they vote for Obama it is, 'Unity.'

The hypocrisy in this campaign is just breathtaking.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
67. I don't like you. n/t
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. Aw.........Can't we all just get along?
:hug:
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #72
77. Apparently not. n/t
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. The "Uniter" must not be doing his job
:rofl:
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. You can lead a douche to vinegar.... n/t
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #81
87. Wow.........Obama supporters sure are
NASTY. :puke:
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. No, just me. n/t
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #88
91. No
I think I was speaking the truth. You are not the only BO supporter that's nasty. I've seen a lot in here lately.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. I don't understand why YOU might attract such vitriol. n/t
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #92
129. The old, "It's your fault I'm an asshole," trick...
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usrbs Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #129
143. Actually...
Look at what's being responded to.

I've said this before, I think mutual respect works best.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 05:38 AM
Response to Reply #92
136. A simple example of blaming the victim
I don't imagine many BO supporters are as irresponsible and charmless as your arrogance suggests. In fact - the ones I know in real life are great people and good friends. (as well as wishful thinking and beguiled)
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #81
135. Ah - more uniting and reaching out
with tasteless misogyny.

Obama deserves a better champion than you "my friend"
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #81
150. ouch! lol
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kwenu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
82. Don't worry. You'll get used to President Obama.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #82
89. Huh?
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
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kwenu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #89
120. Oh noooo. That's what you do when Hillary says she's going to catch up with Obama,
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justinsb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. I like Clinton far less than when the campaign began
I'll actively work against her for any office she runs for (Senate/ Governor ... whatever)
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
43. Sounds like a worthy life goal
not
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Ronnie Donating Member (674 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
85. Aren't you Canadian?
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justinsb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #85
101. Dual citizen n/t
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
130. Hate makes people say stupid things...
Hate is irrational, Obama's 'Hope' sure looks a lot like, 'Hate.'
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justinsb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #130
170. I don't 'hate' her
I just think she is inept and unqualified
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. Which Is Why She's Won So Many Legislative Battles Against Republicans!
I just can't think of even a single one right now - but I'm sure that you'll help me out here.
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Skoods Donating Member (210 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
97. hmm...
Could say the same thing for Obama...I can't think of a single thing he's done..PERIOD!
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. I can
He's proved to us he is a racist.Mission accomplished
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #99
152. Obama's a racist..lol Billy goat is that you? If so please stop humping around..Hill needs you
Edited on Mon Mar-17-08 07:06 AM by NDambi
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Drachasor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #97
123. When you get a Republican or two to support your bill, you get it passed
For instance, his ethics reform bill.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
137. Clinton is well known for reaching across the Senate aisle
in constructive ways and for her warm and friendly demeanor. This happens to be a well acknowledged fact. Neither here nor there perhaps in comparing the two candidates for nominee but it should be noted. She is a highly skilled politician.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. could not possibly have put it better.
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zabet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
5. K and R!
Never Give Up!

:patriot:
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
50. You bet!!!
Go Hillary.
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OhioBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. never give up fighting for Progressive ideals?
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 08:36 PM by OhioBlue
that's not Hillary.

She gave up on a lot of progressive ideals.

That's part of the reason so many don't support her.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. War, "Free" Trade, And Cluster Bombs Aren't Progressive Ideals?
News to me.
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OhioBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. i agree
I edited my post - it came across wrong.

I meant that she indeed does throw progressive ideals under the bus.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. I Understood Your Post Perfectly - I Forgot To Add A :sarcasm: Tag
to my reply

:toast:
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
153. me too
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. She kicked ass here in Ohio!
:hi:
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. She won 9 delegates in Ohio, Obama picked up 10 just yesterday
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 08:52 PM by Upton
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Nobody around here would even THINK of voting for BO
They can't stand him here.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. Cincinnati, Cleveland, Columbus & Dayton went for Obama
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Drachasor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #45
124. My family and I helped in Columbus
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #124
151. Obama has great grass roots support, I like to GOTV at bus stops downtown
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #33
46. Well, 982,489 Ohioans voted for Obama
I guess they just don't live near you.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #46
173. And IMO they are lucky they don't! n/t
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OhioBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #33
53. lol - where are you from?
I haven't talked to one Democrat or Independent that doesn't like Obama.

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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Well you have now
He's too sneaking for me. He waits until he gets caught before he throws his racist preacher under the bus. He thought we would never find out about his views. But now,EVERYONE knows. Nader sounds better and better to me if my candidate loses.
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OhioBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. you're going to judge a man based on
clips of another man's words taken out of context.

kind of a stretch there isn't it?
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. His words were not taken out of context
I HEARD what he said and it was pure racist garbage. Now if Obama agrees with that kind of rhetoric,then he is NOT the uniter he clams to be.I watched his interviews trying explain away what was said,but it was like trying to unscramble and egg. Plus he looked very uncomfortable,which he should have been.He's trying to cover up his real views but it's too late. The American people will not fall for that.
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OhioBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. BS - how can you project one person's views onto another?
that is pretty simple minded - don't ya think?

And yes, absolutely they were taken out of context, or did you get the tapes and watch the entire sermon?
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #68
74. Birds of a feather
Flock together. Nuff said.
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OhioBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #74
90. so you use a cliche
to base your opinions? You might want to rethink that.
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Drachasor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #74
125. And if you had a racist friend, I assume you'd want everyone to think you were racist too?
And hence everyone you are friends with must be racists, and everyone they are friends, and everyone they are friends....etc.

Dangit, everyone on the planet is a racist!
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #74
174. Really?


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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #55
156. Come down off the ledge...and leave your code speak up there...let's list them...
Edited on Mon Mar-17-08 07:10 AM by NDambi
1. No one around here likes him.
2. He's Sneaky
3. He's racist.
4. His preacher is racist.

LOL..are you racist Buffy?
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #33
154. Of course they can't that's why no one in Ohio voted for him.lmao
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #10
172. Ohioans like you make me glad...
...I moved from my state of birth to California.

JMHO
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
96. That's what I'm afraid Obama will do if he's elected.
His whole campaign is about compromise, joining hands and making nice with Rethugs. He triangulates with Rethugs so much he even took impeachment off the table...just to get their damn votes.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #96
102. Where was it he went to.......Iraq?
I know it was out of the country,but guess who he chose to go with? RICHARD LUGAR (R)! he's far too cozy with the repukes but claims he's progressive. :eyes:
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Drachasor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #96
126. That's false. His campaign is about building a 65%+ MAJORITY
He has always been decidedly progressive, but he is able to get some Republicans to go along with him in those goals. He wants to build up and empower a progression union.

It isn't triangulation, because he doesn't say different things to each little group so they all come together -- that's a Clinton strategy. Instead he has a unified message of change for everyone.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #96
138. No, he doesn't "triangulate"
Unfortunately the Clinton/Carville/Morris View Of The World is so ingrained in parts of our party that we see that as the only way of reaching across the aisle.

Reagan drank our milkshake. He took blue collar Democrats from our party while moving the GOP farther to the right. This is not some impossible feat. Attracting Republican voters does not mean caving on progressive values; for that matter, it means be much more honest and direct about it. It's the same reason conservatives like Dean: what bothers a lot of conservatives about our party is not our ideals but the perception that we aren't willing to fight for them. When Democrats do actually stand up for them, without apologies or triangulation, conservatives respond surprisingly positively.
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. 3 months after the campaign begins I like Hillary more and Bill and the rest of her campaign less...
She is an appealing candidate. He and her campaign destroy everything likeable about her.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. This is true for me too
She has grown on me at about the same pace that Obama has withered.

At the beginning of the campaign he was about number three but ahead of Hillary. I was not keeping a precise count of course. So many great candidates. A matter of pride for the party.

Now she has leapfrogged to the fore as I have watched the campaign unfold.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. She will win in the end
If Obama wins the nomination,we will have another damn repuke for President. McLame will win it for sure. That's why Obama needs to step down for the good of the country.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I tend to agree
.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. -----
:toast:
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
64. Yeah, Obama needs to step down for the good of the country. n/t
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cd3dem Donating Member (927 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
73. I totally agree!
I heard that in England they are betting on our election and the numbers are on McCain... not surprising.. if we do not wake up, they will be right! and this was pre-pastor "hate" speech.

I can just see the swiftboating now...

Pastor Wright: "G** D*** America"

Obama: "Just words!"

Michelle: "For the first time in my life I am proud to be an American"

Obama: "Just words!"
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #73
78. Oh it's going to get ugly
That's why we can't afford Obama as our nominee. If it happens, FOUR MORE YEARS OF THE BUSH POLICIES. McCain will be handed the Presidency on a silver platter.
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #78
160. Wait 'til Hillary releases those tax returns and Bill refuses to release his librar donor's list, or
Hill keeps side stepping releasing her first lady "logs!"


In addition, I can tell you this if Hill gets the nom while Obama leads in all categories, you can bet we will have president McCain because all those new voters Obama bought in and the huge African American vote will definitely not support Clinton. The Dems may can win without the "youth" vote, but it can not and has never won without the "black" vote. Thems the facts!
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cd3dem Donating Member (927 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #78
186. Obama has been walking on water with the media... it had to happen...
I am hearing more and more stories of voter fraud as well...
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
79. You do know that Obama does better against McCain than Hillary
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 09:40 PM by Quixote1818
in Florida, California and even NY.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. This isn't the General election
Wait and see what happens.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #83
94. Why would Hillary do better in a General Election?
1. She will bring out the Republican base in record numbers. Republicans absolutely hate her with a passion. Some Republicans have indicated they would vote for Obama. In fact he has picked up more Republican voters in the Primary's.

2. Obama does better with Independents

3. She will struggle to get the Black vote back

4. Obama will bring Blacks out in Record numbers

5. Obama is bringing young voters out in a way not seen before. Those voters will disappear with Clinton.


This is exactly why the poll now show Obama doing better than Hillary even in her home state.

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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #94
98. The repukes don't hate her half as much as the BO supporters
3. She will struggle to get the Black vote back

4. Obama will bring Blacks out in Record numbers


Before Obama came along blacks just luuuuuuved the Clintons. Now all of a sudden they are nothing but trash.It shows me the Clintons wasn't liked by blacks all along.You don't do a 180% turn on someone you genuinly like and support. This primary is about race. It's been proven here in DU over and over.Obama is black so he gets the black support. That's fine. But the Latino's will come out for Hillary.....as they already have.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #98
108. The Blacks turned against her because of the race baiting
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 10:06 PM by Quixote1818
Her campaign was behind the emails suggesting Obama was a Muslim, calling him a drug dealer, the Jesse Jackson comment and Ferraro's comment. Their strategy is to get Obama's campaign to scream "Racism" and to turn him into the "Black" candidate. And even if they don't scream racism, the Clinton campaign says they did.

Oh, and Republicans hate Hillary more than Michael Moore. There is no one on the planet they hate more than her. Obama could call Reagan a homosexual and they would still hate Hillary more than Obama.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5337168420110236274&q=Hillary+race+baiting&total=9&start=0&num=20&so=0&type=search&plindex=4

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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #108
114. Oh my gosh
You can't say ANYTHING about Saint Reagan. That's enough to drag Charleton Heston out of his cold, dead, coma.
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #98
163. Latinos don't vote in huge numbers not like black people..sorry
Edited on Mon Mar-17-08 07:24 AM by NDambi
And the Clinton's deserved to lose my vote and that of my family and friends...

We can vote for whomever we desire and if its Obama...it's Obama...YOU DON'T LIKE IT...AS I SAID TOUGH TITTY Bubba!
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #94
161. Exactly!!! Nail. Head.
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #13
159. Clinton can't pull indie and moderates..her base is largely Dems..she can't beat McCain..sorry
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
11. We damn sure don't need a racist President
Hillary will make a wonderful President....just like Bill!
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. And we sure do NOT need more religion in public life
Obama's religiosity is really disturbing.

People's private faith is one thing but speaking as if you were conveying the word of god is downright creepy.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. I've never heard a preacher cuss in a church before
I never knew that happened.....and to get cheers and claps from the congregation is scary,to say the least. :scared:
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
37. That doesn't bother me so much -
...although it will freak the general electorate.

I don't disagree with lots of Wright's stuff but his tone and cruelty are beyond the pale. He is a demagogue and that is off-putting also.

And this religiosity is sickening. Dangerous. Disturbs me the more I hear about Obama's conversion and etc. Reminds me of Bush.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #37
49. I know what you mean
I will vote for Nader if Obama gets the nomination.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #49
70. DON'T do that PLEASE
To vote Nadar is to vote GOP. This election is too important.
think Iraq
the economy
supreme court
and a host of other vital areas.
Hillary is better than Obama but Obama is VASTLY superior to ANY republican.
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #49
164. Your Hem is showing..and is your one bra strap...lol
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #23
139. Are you calling the God Damn quote "cussing"?
I really don't think it's cussing if you're using it in the actual sense of "God cast His judgment on this country"
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #19
140. It would be nice to have religion in public life for a change
We've been without it for a long while.

I know it's a talking point that Bush puts his faith out in front of everything but I really haven't seen it except for:
A) The 2000 GOP primaries
B) The stem-cell decision in 2001
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. I was wondering how many serious errors...
in judgment of character you've made. But then I saw that you still think Bill was a "wonderful" president. Are you perhaps related to Mark or Denise Rich? Have you ever been wrong about judging someone's character? I know I have.

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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
15. Ditto! I like Hillary more, and Obama much much less
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. The preacher-gate isn't over with.
We now know what Obama is all about.And there is more to come.
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George_Bonanza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
18. She's the worst of both worlds: a would-be triangulator who can't get along with the other side
I'm sorry, but Hillary ain't no liberal crusader. The Republicans may hate her, but it's an irrational hatred given how willingly she'll come to terms with them.

I'm not saying Obama's a great liberal crusader, but while he too seeks reconciliation over partisanship, he has displayed a stronger moral backbone.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. yeah...
His church choice proves that! :eyes:
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
20. And I like her less. Hope that's OK.
:hi:
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #20
34. of course it's ok
we all perceive the world from our own vantagepoint. There is no "right" or "wrong" here empirically. It's all just personal judgement.
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
25. My support for Obama is stronger than ever
the more he's unfairly attacked, the more presidential he looks when handling such garbage thrown in his direction. The man is cool under fire something we need in a president. Meanwhile, HRC potrays herself as a graduate of Victimology 101 and don't even get me started on Penn and Wolfson.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Unfairly attacked???
What are you smokin??
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
41. Yep
this Wright thing is mostly coming from such paragons of virtue as Hannity and O'Reilly. For all you Clinton supporters I might add that if you lay down with dogs, you’ll get up with fleas. I sleep with my pugs but they're not allowed to watch Faux.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #41
52. It's been all over CNN,MSNBC,CNBC
and the local nightly news and world news. So it didn't only come from Fox. Sorry.
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #52
60. I know that
but they're reporting the news, Faux is getting a kick out of it.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. I won't watch Fox
Too rightwing for me.
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #61
75. Rarely watch it myself, way too right wing for me
sometimes I'll turn to it to see what kind of spin they're putting on a particular story. Of course, I watched it the other night when Obama was on, putting up with more bias from Hannity leading up to Obama's taped interview.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #75
93. Oh God.......
How can you stand Hannity? He is despicable.......Obnoxious,rude,and delusional.
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #93
106. Tell me about it
he's all those things you mentioned and more. I guess he's representative of today's Republican party. Oh. and you forgot arrogant, he projects an arrogance that makes you want to reach through the screen and shake him around.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #106
110. I know
It's sickening. Oh I don't want him to take this nomination. I know in my heart if he does we are screwed. It will be President McCain. :grr: Why can't he see what he is doing to this party and to our country? He's just like bu$h. Claims to be a uniter but all he's done is DIVIDE us.Can someone please send him a one way ticket to Kenya? Please?
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #110
168. Why to Kenya? He's American you racist piece of shit!
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usrbs Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #106
145. You forgot stupid, Very very stupid. Can't watch him at all. n/t
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #106
167. lol I've never wanted to punch someone as much as I want to punch Hannity...
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #61
166. ha ha...but you'll vote for Nader to enable them? lmaoooooooo
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #29
165. Whatever it is ...it isn't as strong as the stuff you're smokin' lol..I'd say
crack is stronger than marijuana...lol
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
27. You see that same traits that I have admired in her for years.
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enid602 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
28. Hill
She's one tough lady, and I too admire her doggedness, tenacity and energy. But she's also emerged as a person; there's a personality that I did not detect before these campaign struggles began.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. She is strong
She has been knocked down so many times but she gets back up,dusts herself off and keeps on going.THAT is what we need in a President.
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JimGinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
36. You Support HRC And Accuse Obama Of Triangulation...
That's certainly a reality inversion.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. You're looking at Bill's record and assuming she will approach the job similarly
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
40. nevermind
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 09:21 PM by Oregonian
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NewHampster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
42. well said n/t
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
44. Tough. Resilient. Capable. Ahead of the curve on today's problems.

That's what I've seen for some years. Her campaigning skills were not at the highest level but have grown. Sitting in the Oval Office, however, would provide us with mature leadership and, as you state, "....a shot at
becoming a truly great President."

K & R :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
47. K
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
48. I am growing tired of all this bullshit.....
It is starting to look like neither will win with all this bickering. I am not thinking about Nader, but I am tired of all the hate talk from the supporters of the person behind. You should pick up a book and discover the truth for a change. Blows jobs were not an issue with me the other stuff bothered me the most. NAFTA, WTO, Alan Greenspan, campaigning as a liberal and leading like a conservative. The free market sucks and we are seeing it come home to roost. There is still time.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. I support a different individual than you do
I don't think that's "hate."

Once we have a nominee, presumably we'll both be supporting the same person.
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LordJFT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
54. Obama may be a conciliator but his policies are more liberal than hillary's
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. I think the groups that rate voting records have them at almost
exactly the same rating.
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LordJFT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #57
66. Not all important issues have come up during their times in congress
For example Obama supports ending the wage cap on the ss tax and Hillary doesn't, Obama supports repealing all of DOMA and Hillary doesn't, Obama supports meeting with leaders from hostile countries and Hillary doesn't none of which have come up for a vote in congress. Also groups that do vague assessments such as whether a candidate is more liberal have them about the same, but I think we know that some of these standards are bullshit since one rating named Obama the most liberal senator, beyond Feingold, Boxer, Kennedy and Klobuchar. If you look at specific issues Obama has a better rating from the department of conservation for example. And with Obama's vote for the bill banning cluster bombs in civilian areas (which Hillary voted against) and Hillary voting for kyl-lieberman (which admittedly obama wasn't there to vote against) I don't see how you can say Obama's not more liberal on foreign policy issues unless you can find me a vote on a foreign policy issue where Hillary took a more liberal stance than Obama.
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
58. Excellent post
:applause:
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sueragingroz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
59. lovely post!
Let's just hope that it's not too late!
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
63. Nicely said Ruggerson,
I agree.

K&R
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
76. I use to like her, but now see her much in the same way I see Bush and Rove
She seems to want this too much and it's kind of creepy. Obama may not be much better but at least he runs his campaign like he is a good person.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #76
105. he's as phoney as a 3 dollar bill
Says one thing,does another.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #105
113. Care to provide some examples? nt
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metalluk Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
86. Beautifully stated
and my sentiments prescisely.
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TheDoorbellRang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
95. Thanks for your thoughtful rationale pro-Clinton
We can agree to disagree. :toast:
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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
100. From this campaign it seems like Hillary would be divisive, destructive, tactless, and arrogant
not what I'd like to see in a President.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #100
104. Geez.......divisive, destructive, tactless, and arrogant
You just described BO to a T. :thumbsup:
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
103. This is a very fair assessment
thanks for sharing your perspective. Hopefully folks can afford you the courtesy of disagreements with you, where they may, without assuming that intent is to unfairly denigrate Mr. Obama.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
107. that Clinton will actually fight for progressive ideals
does not fit the administration of her husband, nor her years in the Senate. She will fight strongly for herself, but not for progressives. I don't know how that is not obvious. Especially after the campaign. It's just too obvious to me. She's not on my side. She's not fighting for me. Thus, I am fighting against her. Unfortunately she has much more resources to fight against me. Even Rush Limbaugh is helping her.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #107
111. Yep, Bill left the Democratic party in a complete destruction by the time he left.
And according to TIME Magazine, it was Hillary who often told Bill to go along with the Republicans because she thought it might look better politically. She is a sell out.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #111
115. Yep!
Bill left the Democratic party in a complete destruction by the time he left


I hate him for leaving us with the biggest surplus,low gas prices,peace and prosperity,jobs and I could just beat him over the head for making it possible for me to lead a half way decent life.We bought an RV back then was able to travel some and I didn't have to stay away from my kids because I couldn't afford the 97cent gas. When it went up to a 1.25 people were bitching all over the place.Now it's almost 4$ a gallon and no one says shit. Damn,what a life we have today,isn't it great? :sarcasm:
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #115
118. that was the economy, not the Democratic Party
When Bill left, the Republican party took the White House, the Senate, the House, and a bunch of Governorships and state legislatures. Low gas prices were kind of a mixed blessing from a progressive point of view. If you care about the environment and think global warming is real, then it's not good if more people are encouraged to buy gas guzzlers because the price of gas is so low. If the country was so happy with Bill, then Gore should have won in a landslide and Democrats should have captured both houses of Congress. Instead the Democratic party changed it's formula so it'd be more like the Republican Party. And given a choice between DLCers who sounded like Republicans and actual Republicans, the voters went with the original.
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #118
169. EXCELLENT POST! JUST EXCELLENT!

Shut 'em down
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Skoods Donating Member (210 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
109. As am I!
I was an Edwards supporter. But, I liked Obama and thought I would support him should Edwards pull out. Well, that for sure didn't happen. Obama soured on me incredibly. The sheer thought that a person can get elected President based only on the fact that he speaks well and despite the fact that he hasn't done anything since being elected is just mind-boggling.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #109
116. Scary,isn't it?
:scared:
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #109
119. that's dislike of Obama, not respect for Hillary
it's campaign spin to say that Obama has not done anything, but even there many times it would be nice if Hillary did not do anything instead of promoting Republican policies like the IWR and Kyl-Lieberman. Ted Kennedy and The Nation magazine have endorsed him because they like the DIRECTION he promises to take us. It's not just about what people have done, it's about what they will do based on their proposals, speeches and record.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
112. She thinks McShame is better than Obama
'Nuff said. Fighting with Rethug memes equals a big, big loss.
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ericgtr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
117. I like Hillary also
I just think most of her supporters act like a bunch of 2 year olds.
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cooolandrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
121. If HRC has divided nation and party andoffered no positive vison howdoe that work...
..HRC is setting the example that you have to stamp on poeple to get ahead that isnt what Democrats stand for.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
122. Hyperpartisanship is a trait of our worst presidents, not our greatest.
George Washington was above partisanship; the only American president fortunate enough to have been so. Abraham Lincoln won re-election on a 'National Union' ticket with Unionist Democrat Andrew Johnson. FDR's first cabinet included Republicans like Frances Perkins and Harold Ickes, he was able to work with Republicans in Congress to achieve his New Deal goals, and when war came had Republicans in important cabinet positions as Secretaries of the War and Navy departments.

Our hyperpartisan presidents? Nixon. Bush. The staggeringly corrupt post-Civil War administration of Ulysses Grant. The historical record indicates that the most inflexibly partisan Presidents are also likely to be among the worst.

Another point: the idea that Hillary Rodham Clinton has ever been a 'fighter for progressive ideals' is, on the face of it, an absurdity; in her politics she is a centre-rightist, as, indeed, are most Democratic politicians on the national stage. Not only is she more than willing to compromise at times when doing so is not absolutely necessary, she at times is more than willing to adopt profoundly illiberal positions--see for instance her support of censorship re video games; see also her introduction of a bill to criminalise burning the US flag--these are both issues that strike in different ways at the Constitutionally protected right of free speech, and there's nothing at all progressive about them. Not to mention that there's nothing particularly progressive about her positions on the 'war on drugs', the death penalty, and a whole host of other issues, that, taken together, belie the idea that she can be called a 'progressive' at all. Applying such a label in the face of the evidence to the contrary is a sign of deep cognitive dissonance.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #122
128. Nixon, like Clinton was a coopting President
That is the model Barack is emulating. At least on the campaign trail.

FDR and TR were both hyper partisan successful transfomers. Bush is an example of a hyperpartisan failed transformer; as I noted above partisan, divisive Presidents can succeed gloriously or fail miserably.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4361720
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #128
131. You make the mistake of conflating partisan presentation with partisan governance.
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 11:53 PM by Spider Jerusalem
Relying on partisan appeal to attain office doesn't extend to using partisan prejudice in governance and the making of cabinet appointments, etc. By this measure neither TR nor nor FDR can be accurately described as 'hyper-partisan'.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #131
132. Of course they can
FDR tried to pack the Supreme Court, remember? It was one of his (few) spectacular failures. He was about as partisan as they come.

Both FDR and TR governed the way they said they would during the campaign.

As did Eisenhow and Clinton, to some degree.

It is reasonable to assume that Obama will govern as a co-optor, as that is what he is telling us he will do, and he is basing his entire campaign on the message of unity and reconciliation.
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Drachasor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
127. Obama is about building a 65%+ Majority as much as possible (not triangulation)
Triangulation is what Clintons do.
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Metric System Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
133. Great post and great points. Hillary's in it to win it and we're right behind you Hill!!!
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
134. I like her about the same.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 06:03 AM
Response to Original message
141. I've found her incompetence staggering, personally
At the beginning of the campaign I liked Edwards and Dodd, but thought that Clinton would be fine too. As I've watched her campaign absolutely fail to:

A) Come up with a coherent narrative about why she should be President
B) Back up their vague claims of "experience" with anything substantive
C) Accept responsibility for what the IWR vote actually was ("it wasn't a vote for war" makes me want her to lose her Senate seat -- if she doesn't understand what a vote for war is, she should not be in the Senate)
D) Have a Plan B in case their "inevitability" campaign failed
E) Stay on-message
F) Have a consistent and persuasive message to stay "on" in the first place
G) Make any attempt at stopping Obama's dozen straight victories in February
H) Avoid participating in a Soviet-style single-candidate "primary" in MI

as I've watched that, I've come to have some serious questions about how well she would run the White House.
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Medusa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #141
146. Me too.
It's amazing how badly run her campaign is, how much of a bubble she's apparently in, and how out-of-touch with the mainstream that her "advisors" are. I don't want Part III of the Bush years. Remember, we already know what happened the last time this country decided Bush Part II would be great for the USA. It wasn't. No more hereditary monarchies!
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 06:08 AM
Response to Original message
142. CLINTON OBAMA 2008


:kick:
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usrbs Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 06:24 AM
Response to Original message
144. Good post. I like her toughness too.
And intelligence and determination. Not my first choice (more like my fourth), but I'm very confident in my choice. Unless Gore or Clark jump in...
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 06:29 AM
Response to Original message
147. She is nothing like the comic-book villain imagined by her opponents
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Alamom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
148. k&r
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
149. All that just to say you're impressed with Hillary..gotta be more succint in your writings..lol
Edited on Mon Mar-17-08 07:38 AM by NDambi
hey more power to you...
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shayes51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
155. She will be a great president.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #155
157. Not so.
Her chance of being president is very slim. Unless Obama implodes, she's done.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
158. You forgot the part about Hillary liking Republicans enough to...
...enable their faux wars and to choose Colin Powell to rehabilitate our reputation around the world.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
171. I always disliked Hillary.
This started way back when she was First Lady. I found her to be phony and insincere.

When the campaign started, Hillary was at the VERY bottom on my list as to which Dem I preferred to get the nomination. I liked DK, when he quit, I went JRE...and when he dropped out, I went Obama.

At a point way back before the dirty politics of Clinton, I had said to myself that if Hillary unfortunately got the Dem nom, I would hold my nose and go to the polls and vote for her.

At this point in time, I can truly say that I would NEVER under any circumstances vote for Hillary Clinton. My dislike for her has gone to out-and-out hatred of her. She makes me ill. She and John McCain are more alike than they are different...and that clearly showed when she endorsed him over Obama.

IMO, Hillary Clinton is a traitor to this party and if there are Dem membership cards, someone should take hers from her and tear it the fuck up.

JMHO
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SeaLyons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
175. K & R
Hillary for President!!!

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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
177. I disagree with the OP. When Hillary announced her candidacy, I expected
Edited on Mon Mar-17-08 11:09 AM by Vinca
I would be among her supporters, but I have to tell you, I cannot stand the woman now. I don't trust her. She's power hungry. She's puffing her experience. She's Republican-lite. And, worst of all, she threw a Democrat under the bus in favor of John McCain. The last thing she deserves is the nomination.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
178. "never gives up. She is tough as nails..."
And as is made increasingly clear, will do absolutely anything to win.

Which is why I won't vote at all in November if she's the nominee.

You have to have SOME scruples, after all.
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wrando Donating Member (949 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #178
179. gop needs your help
with that, I would just hope you enjoy the next 4 yrs of McCain

Bill from ct
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #179
182. If Hil gets the nomination, that's what's going to happen anyway.
McCain won't need any help from me to win.
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Lannigan Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
180. K&R
Thanks. We need more of this kind of stuff - the WHYS of support vs. tearing down - from both sides. It's nice to see someone support one candidate without trashing the other.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
181. I've found it hard to cough up support for either of them...but Hillary has
Edited on Mon Mar-17-08 01:04 PM by KoKo01
been looking stronger in her "Policy Speeches" every time I hear her. CNN showed a long...maybe 25 minute clip of her this morning and she laid out her plan to get us out of Iraq, end the "No Bid Contracts" and eliminate those "Guns for Hire," Blackwater and other mercenary groups. She said there will be NO Permanent Bases in Iraq.

I'd like to believe she would set her Justice Department on Halliburton and the other Repug Contractors and Blackwater and the rest. I'd like to believe she would turn that huge Embassy we've built in Iraq over to the Iraqi's. I'd like to believe that she will do what she says she will to track down offshore bank accounts and Wall St. Criminality and prosecute those who have profited from America being drained of it's wealth. I would like to think Hillary will prosecute the Bush/Cheney Evil Doings and that they will be held accountable for what they've done. I doubt that will happen because they didn't go after Poppy for Iran/Contra. But, I don't think a fresh President Obama is going to ruin the start to his Presidency by prosecuting Bush/Cheney, either. I worry that both of them will pardon the whole former Administration from further prosecution because they will want to "Move On."

But, I like her solid policy proposals more than Obama's constant evangelizing about "Hope and Change" and "let's all get along and work with the Repugs." He seems to give the same speech over and over.

Times are dire. We only have two candidates left... I have to think whether I want someone who knows who Washington works from the top down over someone who will take a year to get going...because they are so unfamiliar with DC and how it works.

I still don't really trust either of them...but Hillary is a fighter. She's not a Nancy Pelosi or a Harry Reid. I do worry about that compromising that Obama talks about all the time.
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tandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
183. K & R
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Unbowed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
184. There is a huge difference between being tough and being without scruples.
Hillary isn't tough. Tough is when a person has the kind of fortitude it takes to do what's right even if it conflicts with personal ambition. Fighting dirty isn't tough. It's cowardly.

If Hillary Clinton were really tough, she would try to win the nomination on her own merits and experience without resorting to Republican smears, distortions and attacks.

After Senator Clinton's behavior in this campaign, I now see her as WEAK. She is like a drowning cat, clawing and grasping at anything and ready to take anyone down with her. Her "kitchen sink" strategy isn't tough, it's DESPERATE and PATHETIC. Those are not things I associate with strength.

If Hillary Clinton were not weak of character, she might think about what is better for the party and the country. She's not doing that. She will win or she will take down Obama, the party and by extension, our country. It's Hill's way or the Highway. If we don't vote for her, we will have to pay the ultimate price: 4 more years of Republican rule.

Selling your soul isn't tough, not matter how you rationalize it.

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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
185. Hillary is 100% the product and candidate of the Irish-American matriarchy
If she is not on the ticket, the Dems kiss this valuable voting block bye bye.
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