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Kos: The Clinton Civil War-no surprise that for all of '07 Clinton never exceeded 11 % support

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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 12:54 PM
Original message
Kos: The Clinton Civil War-no surprise that for all of '07 Clinton never exceeded 11 % support
The Clinton civil war
by kos
Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:25:22 AM PDT

Al Giordano, on the laughable Clinton-supporters "strike" of this blog:
There was always something incongruous about the self-proclaimed “Hillary Bloggers” trying to use Daily Kos for their purposes. DKos has been defined as a meeting ground not for every Democrat, but for the kind that wants to change the party to be more grassroots oriented, adhere to a 50-state strategy, stop the war in Iraq, and blunt the influence of lobbyists, PACs and the neoliberal Democratic Leadership Council (DLC). That’s the glue that has always held the DKos community together and made it so large and strong.

Given that candidate Clinton is a member of the DLC, voted to authorize the war, accepts federal lobbyist and PAC money, clearly thinks that a lot (if not most) states “don’t matter,” and epitomizes a 1990s style top-down form of doing politics, it’s no surprise that for all of 2007 Clinton never exceeded 11 percent support in the monthly Daily Kos users straw poll.

I would add one more item to the list above -- this site has also been hostile to the corrosive consultant class that gave us our timid and weak party until Howard Dean shook it up in 2004.

-snip
Clinton isn't just a member of the DLC, she's in their leadership. Obama, by the way, repudiated the organization three times (it's a great story, which I tell in my forthcoming book).

Clinton hasn't just rejected a 50-state strategy, she has openly attacked it. CTG has a great quote from former Virginia Governor and future senator Mark Warner on this very topic:
The Democratic Party is in the upswing in the Mountain West and the South, in places like Montana and Virginia, because Democrats there have made a serious effort to compete for votes everywhere, rather than make a nominal effort to be an "also-ran" outside the Democratic-density areas. As Warner asks, how many more times will the Democrats run presidential campaigns where they abandon thirty-three southern and western states and "launch a national campaign that goes after sixteen states and then hope that we can hit a triple bank shot to get to that seventeenth state?"
-snip
http://www.dailykos.com/
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hillary is clearly unelectable as President of Daily Kos
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yep, that and REAL Liberals and Progressives that thirst for justice.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Then we all DESERVE a progressive and liberal candidate
not one that cringes at those words.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. Who gives a fuck--really?
Daily Kos?
pppfffttttt....

They are legends in their own mind. Why do people keep dragging their sloppy seconds here and acting like they matter?
They are just another inconsequential blog in a sea of inconsequential blogs in the blogosphere.
The people that adore them...adore them.
The people that don't...don't.
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Mags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:04 PM
Original message
I'm one that don't. He is pretty much full of himself.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. When I came to DU after the '04 Stolen election in Ohio, I felt the same sediment that Kos describes
I thought it was a bastion of progressive thought, folks who fought against the corporatization of the Democratic Party, folks who wanted an immediate end to the war. I don't go to Kos-mainly because I despise their lay-out, but I have certainly found some well written pieces there.

Since their "boycott", I find myself regularly going their as opposed to the mud-fest that is GD-P.

I may still be an idealist-but I like the thought of the party without the folks that the Clintons surround themselves with-Mark Penn, Howard Wolfson, James Carville are not my role models of who I would like in leadership roles within the Democratic Party. After all this country has been through due to this corporatism, I'm willing to veer away from the party should they elect to go the corporate route.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. I don't find any consolation in EITHER candidate
They are cut from the same cloth.
However...I find Clinton to be less evasive than obama and at least willing to stand up and vote (even if wrong) and not hide in the bathroom when there is a tough roll call vote.

Kos shit on DU a couple of years ago. I have no respect for them since and never will again.


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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. My issue is corporatism & election integrity...
(Corporatism is to blame for the war, stolen elections, economic downturn ect-imho)

These issues are why I could NEVER vote for Clinton or any DLCer:

After Mining Deal, Financier Donated to Clinton

By JO BECKER and DON VAN NATTA Jr.
Published: January 31, 2008
Late on Sept. 6, 2005, a private plane carrying the Canadian mining financier Frank Giustra touched down in Almaty, a ruggedly picturesque city in southeast Kazakhstan. Several hundred miles to the west a fortune awaited: highly coveted deposits of uranium that could fuel nuclear reactors around the world. And Mr. Giustra was in hot pursuit of an exclusive deal to tap them.

Unlike more established competitors, Mr. Giustra was a newcomer to uranium mining in Kazakhstan, a former Soviet republic. But what his fledgling company lacked in experience, it made up for in connections. Accompanying Mr. Giustra on his luxuriously appointed MD-87 jet that day was a former president of the United States, Bill Clinton.

-snip

snip

"Kazakhstan’s president, Nursultan A. Nazarbayev, whose 19-year stranglehold on the country has all but quashed political dissent."

"Mr. Nazarbayev walked away from the table with a propaganda coup, after Mr. Clinton expressed enthusiastic support for the Kazakh leader’s bid to head an international organization that monitors elections and supports democracy."

-snip

Just months after the Kazakh pact was finalized, Mr. Clinton’s charitable foundation received its own windfall: a $31.3 million donation from Mr. Giustra that had remained a secret until he acknowledged it last month. The gift, combined with Mr. Giustra’s more recent and public pledge to give the William J. Clinton Foundation an additional $100 million, secured Mr. Giustra a place in Mr. Clinton’s inner circle, an exclusive club of wealthy entrepreneurs in which friendship with the former president has its privileges.

LINK:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/us/politics/31donor.html

WTF BILL CLINTON WAS WILLING TO SELL OUT INTERNATIONAL ELECTIONS FOR A DONATION TO HIS FOUNDATION? WHAT A PILLAR OF DEMOCRACY!
AND WHERE WERE THE CLINTONS IN 2000 & 2004?

am convinced that the failure of the DLC to acknowledge Gore's win in 2000 (in fact they blame his "loss" on breaking with the DLC and becoming a populist-i'll post a link below) and their active role in keeping Kerry from challenging Ohio in 2004(thanks to Clinton ally James Carville (also posted below) was calculated as to allow a HRC run in '08. If either would have taken the office they won, then HRC and her corporate cronies would not have had a chance in 2008. Also look how they try to undermine Howard Dean. Anyway, here are some links:

FIRST..GORE BROKE WITH THE DLC TO BECOME A POPULIST:

Published on Sunday, August 20. 2000 in the Boston Globe
Thank You, Al Gore
by Robert Kuttner
A funny thing happened to Al Gore on the way to his surprisingly effective acceptance speech. He became a liberal.

The speech was as liberal as anything FDR or LBJ or Jesse Jackson or one of the Kennedys might have delivered. It was built around a commitment to fight for ordinary people, against large and powerful interests. This, of course, is precisely what made it effective.

The emotional heart of the speech, Gore's honoring of four ordinary American lives, did not just salute the struggles of workaday families, the way Ronald Reagan often did. It identified who was dishonoring their struggles - corporations. He singled out heartless HMOs who pressure a family to sacrifice a child; drug companies that force a pensioner to choose between food and medicine; corporate polluters; corporations that pay workers inadequate wages.

And he identified the solution: strong, reliable public Social Security; better Medicare; welfare reform that rewards work rather than punishing the needy; higher minimum wages; and more investment in public - not voucher - schools, so that working families don't have to send kids to crumbling classrooms.

What is the evil? Corporate power. What is the remedy? Effective government.

-snip
http://www.commondreams.org/views/082000-105.htm

SECOND, AFTER GORE'S WIN THEY BLAME HIS 'LOSS' ON BREAKING WITH THE DLC:

Strange Theory on Why Gore Lost



The so-called Democratic Leadership Council has decided that Al Gore should have acted more like a Republican in order to win the 2000 presidential electoral college vote in addition to his nationwide popular vote victory. This strange finding has drawn some attention, including coverage by the Associated Press and the Environmental News Service -- we have a few excerpts from their reports for you here.
Al Gore, the self-styled environmental candidate in the 2000 Presidential election, lost his bid for the White House because he campaigned on an outdated "populist" platform that was too liberal for most Americans, according to a new report drafted by the Democratic Leadership Council.

The 40-page report, titled "Why Gore Lost, And How Democrats Can Come Back," concludes that the Democratic Party must move towards the political right -- towards the Republicans -- if it wants to regain control of Congress in 2002 and the White House in 2004.

Al From, the DLC's founder and CEO, opened a freewheeling discussion forum by arguing that Democrat Al Gore made a huge tactical mistake by continually emphasizing that he would "fight for the people and not the powerful" as the nation's first president of the 21st Century.

-snip

http://www.progress.org/goredlc2.htm

AND FINALLY, CLINTON ALLY JAMES CARVILLE'S ROLE IN THE QUICK KERRY CONCESSION:

Did Carville Tip Bush Off to Kerry Strategy (Woodward)


By M.J. Rosenberg | bio




On page 344, Woodward describes the doings at the White House in the early morning hours of Wednesday, the day after the '04 election.

Apparently, Kerry had decided not to concede. There were 250,000 outstanding ballots in Ohio.

So Kerry decides to fight. In fact, he considers going to Ohio to camp out with his voters until there is a recount. This is the last thing the White House needs, especially after Florida 2000.

-snip

"Carville told her he had some inside news. The Kerry campaign was going to challenge the provisional ballots in Ohio -- perhaps up to 250,000 of them. 'I don't agree with it, Carville said. I'm just telling you that's what they're talking about.'

-snip

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward

RESEARCH THIS FOR YOURSELVES, BEFORE YOU CAST A VOTE FOR ANY DLC CANDIDATE!




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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I could probably search and find 100 threads of me
hating on Hillary when I had a REAL candidate to choose from.
I hate the DLC.
I hate all that it stands for.
There just aren't any good choices but I don't buy the hype and I hate the passive-aggressive race baiting.

In the end...THAT is going to be the legacy of this campaign.
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Melinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. Back in 2004, it was. We were so sad after Kerry lost, and those of us who had supported Dean
were even more so. We were vehemently anti-dlc as a result of what we knew from having supported him, and then of course the IWR... I think this campaign season a particularly nasty one, much nastier than 2004, and those of us who still carry those ideals truly don't venture into this part of DU's woods on any kind of regular basis.

It's almost as if what is happening on Kos is a microcosm of DU these days, most especially exemplified by the vociferousness expressed by the most militant of either candidates supporters.

This elecetion year will end soon, just not soon enough. ;)
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
28. hey, genius, want to tell me why, if kos is so irrelevant, Kerry, Kennedy
Durbin, Pelosi, Feingold, Waxman, Conyers and dozens of other influential dems diary there? Want to tell me why the majority of dems running for Congress diary there?

You may not like it, but kos is the most influential blog on the internet. duh.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
39. sloppy seconds? I think that a very sexist, demeaning remark
how exactly do you mean this, I might have misunderstood the actual meaning of that phrase.

I've been called a sexist traitor woman bigot simply because I won't support Hillary for the good reasons many can't, but 'sloppy seconds'... does that go into the sexist list or are words like that only against Hillary these days only qualify as 'sexist'?
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Melinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. Funny, that description sounds like the DU I used to know.
DKos has been defined as a meeting ground not for every Democrat, but for the kind that wants to change the party to be more grassroots oriented, adhere to a 50-state strategy, stop the war in Iraq, and blunt the influence of lobbyists, PACs and the neoliberal Democratic Leadership Council (DLC).


Some of the issues were added over the years, but the gist is the same. Kudos to Kos for not rolling over.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
37. DU will soon be just another FR if something isn't done... well on the way now.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. There used to be such a sense of common ground. I would read posts based on topics,
now I sick with names I am familiar with, unfortunately losing the wisdom of many newbies. It isn't the disagreement on issues, as the tactics. I find myself feeling the same feelings toward some of the Clinton folks as I do toward the bu$h 20%ers.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. I've learned quickly that some posts just aren't worth opening based on OP name. And its not
good to feel this way about fellow Dems, but when they act like republicans.. not sure what the option is.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. true, and it's only a couple dozen Hillary supporters
that are overboard freepish.

and their Hillary infection has threatend a whole forum just like her selfish run for the prize is threatening the whole party.

the dirty 2 dozen should be told to fuck the hell off before it's too late.

and Hillary should ride off into the sunset and never be seen nor heard fromagain.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Agreed on ALL points !
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InAbLuEsTaTe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #5
67. As Archie and Edith used to sing: those were the days . . .
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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
6. If Mr Kos is so smart why doesn't
he run for president? I would bet he would give himself glowing reviews.
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Metric System Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. He truly is an arrogant ass. If that's how he feels then I will never visit his site again. Why
I would want to increase his earnings through ad views?
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Have you been there lately?
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. No, the Clinton's are arrogant
Hillary thought the nomination process was to be her coronation.
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Metric System Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. Clintons
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
47. It's arrogant NOT TO RELEASE HER TAX RETURNS!
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #47
75. Yes, and arrogant for Bill not to disclose who contributed to his Library fund
and how much they contributed. How many favors and pardons are these donors expecting of a Hillary Admin?
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
10. Obama supporters will take Daily Kos, Hillary supporters can take Newsmax n/t
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Yet Marcos was soooo fucking great
That he removed DU from his blogroll...he shits on you while you worship him.:rofl:
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Gee. With such thoughtful posts as this one...
I cant imagine why he removed the link.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
11. The real battle between Clinton and Obama
is the battle between the DNC and the DLC. That's why Hillary is refusing to quit even though hopelessly behind. She stands for the "select states" strategy and Obama is the 50 state strategy. If she loses, it will mean the DLC strategy has been a failure not only for this time, but past times.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Yep, you hit the nail on the head
If the delegate situation was reversed, Obama would be drummed out of the Dem Party by Al From et al.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. FROM who said Gore made a mistake fighting for the people & not the powerful:
"Gore made a huge tactical mistake by continually emphasizing that he would "fight for the people and not the powerful"

Al From, the DLC's founder and CEO, opened a freewheeling discussion forum by arguing that Democrat Al Gore made a huge tactical mistake by continually emphasizing that he would "fight for the people and not the powerful" as the nation's first president of the 21st Century.

-snip

http://www.progress.org/goredlc2.htm


I REALLY HATE THE WHOLE CONCEPT BEHIND THE DLC!
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. I stand STRONGLY behind Howard Dean & the DNC!
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PerfectSage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
12. K&R For grassroots democracy
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
15. Love it. Sums up my opinion exactly. nt
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NewHampshireDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
17. Here it comes ... more hissy fit

Kos is dead to me, and was probably never really a democrat anyway. :eyes:
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GarbagemanLB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Kos is dead, air america is dead, all progressives are dead to me! I wonder when they'll realize how
silly and ignorant they are sounding. Maybe take a step back from Hillary and actually see the candidate for who she truly is?
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NewHampshireDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. What are they going to do now?
Listen to Rush, read NewsMax, and watch O'Reilly? :shrug:
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
48. Pat Buchanan is on board, though n/t
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
21. Kos is right
The Clintons have always thought of themselves as the Democratic Party's monarchs. The Dem Party was created to serve them and them only. Queen Hillary is furious that us peasants have stormed the gates and are crashing her coronation.
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VenusRising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
23. K&R
I'm so sick of the DLC! They haven't gotten us anywhere. :grr:
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
27. There strike on KOS tells me a lot...:sigh:
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
33. That's why dailykos.com is more influential than DU.
That website actually has a higher purpose beyond just the (D)emocratic Party...

If only it was organized in a more reader friendly format...
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. "If only it was organized in a more reader friendly format..."
No kidding.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. It's definitely different than DU ...
... but also has some better features. I especially like the ability to recommend post responses, rather than just the original posts.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #35
51. I third that
I read posts from Kos if they are listed here or forwarded to me by people on my lists. Otherwise, it's just too hard to find stuff.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #33
46. yes. what's with that format?
I have no clue how to navigate there - I just scan the front page headlines on the right side once in a while.

i take it all there are 'diaries' and not 'posts' like here and that is the big difference? where you have to know someones name to look up their stuff and not necessarily a topic name?

argh. I dunno.
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uberblonde Donating Member (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
34. Markos told women to wait in the back of the bus....
Until after the "real" issues were addressed.

And then he said, "Let them eat pie!"

Or something....
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. And Hillary told most of America that their votes don't count
just the states she wins in count.
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
38. OUCH!
:rofl:
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New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
43. K&R
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
49. K & R
:thumbsup:
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
50. Yeah...so 11% of Democrats were thrown "Under the Bus at Kos" and Buzzflash lost more than that.
Not all those who now find they are "lepers" on those sites were HILLARY SUPPORTERS... I'm certainly not...and neither were many others.

That Left Wing sites that many of us spent all our free time on since 2000 Supremes Selection would choose to decide who are "Lefty Enough" for them...just because we didn't support Obama shows an incredible failing in the "NEW NET ROOTS!"

I have Kos's Augtographed copy of his Book...I met him at my Bookstore here in NC when he and Matt were out on the Book Tour. I had him autograph it to "My NAME" and a hellow from "Democratic Underground." Kos wrote a funny thing..."and Hello Back to you at DU!"

I might as well donate that book to "Charity" because of the way Kos has acted..along with Buzzflash and other sites. Assuming if you weren't ONBOARD THE BUS for OBAMA then you were THROWN OUT and ROLLED OVER...even if you are a LEFTY POPULIST! It's :puke:
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
52. hmm
learned new things. thanks.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
53. Too bad, so sad.
Hillary has done more damage to the Democratic party than any single Democrat ever has.

By dragging racism into the 21st century - against another Democrat!!

Think about that for awhile.

Let it sink in to your consciousness.

And then ask yourselves, how she going to look in to the mirror later this fall?

There's just no way, unless she has no conscience, and that is a serious issue to ponder.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 03:58 AM
Response to Original message
54. She's still a Democrat
It's like they're proud to have run off the supporters of a leading Democratic candidate. DU may have its flaws, but they've never done anything like that. IMO supporters of all Dem candidates should be able to express themselves on a Dem. web site.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. They are against the corporate overthrow of the party-I APPLAUD THEM!
Research a little history. Who financed Bill Clinton originally?

answer: JACKSON STEPHENS-financier to Bush/Clinton/BCCI/Walmart/WTI

Jackson Stephens. Stephens, an Arkansas investor, was known as a significant contributor to Reagan, Bush, and Clinton campaigns.

http://www.umich.edu/~snre492/mcormick.html#Key%20Actors

Stephens Inc. was founded by Witt Stephens, a state legislator's son who parlayed a Depression-era belt-buckle, Bible, and municipal-bond business into an immense personal fortune. After his retirement in 1973, the company was run by his shy younger brother, Jackson (a classmate of Jimmy Carter's at the Naval Academy). Witt Stephens and Stephens Inc. did much to create the economic paradox that is modern Arkansas: a desperately poor state with a scant 2.3 million inhabitants that is nonetheless home to a number of wealthy companies. Without the financial assistance of the Stephens brothers, Sam Walton might have ended his days as the most innovative merchant in Bentonville. Stephens money was also important to the fortunes of enterprises as various as Tyson Foods and Linda Bloodworth-Thomason, the television producer and reigning First Friend. Stephens Inc. is an important client of the Rose law firm, whose chairman, C. Joseph Giroir, made Hillary Rodham Clinton a partner. And back in 1977, Stephens assisted BCCI's infiltration of the American banking system by brokering the latter's purchase of National Bank of Georgia stock held by Bert Lance, former President Jimmy Carter's friend and disgraced budget director.

Jackson Stephens (who turned over the reins to his son, Warren, in the late eighties) and his firm were both substantial contributors to the campaigns of Presidents Reagan and Bush (to the tune of at least $100,000 in 1980 and 1989), but they have been closer still to Bill Clinton (whom Witt Stephens had been known to call "that boy").

On two occasions, once when Clinton was running for reelection in Arkansas in 1990 and again in March 1992, when his battered presidential campaign was broke, the Stephens family saved Clinton's bacon with an infusion of money. Indeed, it may not be too much to say that their Worthen Bank's emergency $3.5 million line of credit saved the presidential campaign from extinction. --L.J.D.

-snip

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/1993/11/davis.html

Jackson Stephens rivals Bath in his role as conduit between high-level factions. A Little Rock, Arkansas tycoon who attended the U.S. Naval Academy with Jimmy Carter and staked Sam Walton to found Wal-Mart in 1970, Stephens was owner of the notoriously toxic WTI Incinerator in East Liverpool, OH, and a munificent contributor to the campaign warchests of both Bill Clinton and George Bush, Sr. He was also embroiled in the BCCI affair through his association with BCCI satellite Union Bank of Switzerland—UBS, in turn, contributed $25 million to the moribund Harken Energy Corp.

-snip
http://www.wburg.com/0202/arts/lombardi.html

WHAT DID THIS CONNECTION DO FOR JACKSON STEPHENS? (Besides keeping Bill Clinton from allowing John Kerry to EXPOSE BCCI)

*read this on the WTI-TOXIC WASTE INCINERATOR JUST 1,100 FT FROM AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4537770




*read this on how the Clinton era gave us the TELECOM ACT OF '96 (MEDIA DE-REG), OUT-SOURCED JOBS OVER SEAS AND, AND MEGA BANKING MERGER (tied in w today's pending financial crisis):

It's not exactly an advertisement for the working-class hero, or a picture her campaign freely displays. Her lengthy support for the Iraq War is Clinton's biggest liability in Democratic primary circles. But her ties to corporate America say as much, if not more, about what she values and cast doubt on her ability and willingness to fight for the progressive policies she claims to champion. She is "running to help and restore the great middle class in our country," Wolfson says. So was Bill in 1992. He was for "putting people first." Then he entered the White House and pushed for NAFTA, signed welfare reform, consolidated the airwaves through the Telecommunications Act of 1996 (leading to Clear Channel's takeover) and cleared the mergers of mega-banks. Would the First Lady do any different? Ever since the defeat of healthcare reform, Hillary has been a committed incrementalist, describing herself as a creature of the "moderate, sensible center" whom business admires and rewards. During her six years in the Senate, she's rarely been out front on difficult economic issues. Given her proximity to money and power, it's not hard to figure out why she keeps controversial figures close to her--even if their work becomes a liability for her campaign.

-snip
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070604/berman





*read this on how BILL CLINTON SOLD OUT FOREIGN ELECTIONS & DEMOCRACY FOR A LARGE DONATION:

After Mining Deal, Financier Donated to Clinton

By JO BECKER and DON VAN NATTA Jr.
Published: January 31, 2008
Late on Sept. 6, 2005, a private plane carrying the Canadian mining financier Frank Giustra touched down in Almaty, a ruggedly picturesque city in southeast Kazakhstan. Several hundred miles to the west a fortune awaited: highly coveted deposits of uranium that could fuel nuclear reactors around the world. And Mr. Giustra was in hot pursuit of an exclusive deal to tap them.

Unlike more established competitors, Mr. Giustra was a newcomer to uranium mining in Kazakhstan, a former Soviet republic. But what his fledgling company lacked in experience, it made up for in connections. Accompanying Mr. Giustra on his luxuriously appointed MD-87 jet that day was a former president of the United States, Bill Clinton.

-snip

snip

"Kazakhstan’s president, Nursultan A. Nazarbayev, whose 19-year stranglehold on the country has all but quashed political dissent."

"Mr. Nazarbayev walked away from the table with a propaganda coup, after Mr. Clinton expressed enthusiastic support for the Kazakh leader’s bid to head an international organization that monitors elections and supports democracy."

-snip

Just months after the Kazakh pact was finalized, Mr. Clinton’s charitable foundation received its own windfall: a $31.3 million donation from Mr. Giustra that had remained a secret until he acknowledged it last month. The gift, combined with Mr. Giustra’s more recent and public pledge to give the William J. Clinton Foundation an additional $100 million, secured Mr. Giustra a place in Mr. Clinton’s inner circle, an exclusive club of wealthy entrepreneurs in which friendship with the former president has its privileges.

LINK:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/us/politics/31donor.html





*read this on just who the Clintons surround themselves with HILLARY'S CHIEF STRATEGIST-MARK PENN:


"In '06, with Penn at the helm, the company gave 57% of Campaign Contrib to GOP"



Polling Czar



After the 1994 election, Democrats had just lost both houses of Congress, and President Clinton was floundering in the polls. At the urging of his wife, he turned to Dick Morris, a friend from their time in Arkansas. Morris brought in two pollsters from New York, Doug Schoen and his partner, Mark Penn, a portly, combative workaholic. Morris decided what to poll and Penn polled it. They immediately pushed Clinton to the right, enacting the now-infamous strategy of "triangulation," which co-opted Republican policies like welfare reform and tax cuts and emphasized small-bore issues that supposedly cut across the ideological divide. "They were the ones who said, 'Make the '96 election about nothing except V-chips and school uniforms,'" says a former adviser to Bill. When Morris got caught with a call girl, Penn became the most important adviser in Clinton's second term. "In a White House where polling is virtually a religion," the Washington Post reported in 1996, "Penn is the high priest."

Penn, who had previously worked in the business world for companies like Texaco and Eli Lilly, brought his corporate ideology to the White House. After moving to Washington he aggressively expanded his polling firm, Penn, Schoen & Berland (PSB). It was said that Penn was the only person who could get Bill Clinton and Bill Gates on the same line. Penn's largest client was Microsoft, and he saw no contradiction between working for both the plaintiff and the defense in what was at the time the country's largest antitrust case. A variety of controversial clients enlisted PSB. The firm defended Procter & Gamble's Olestra from charges that the food additive caused anal leakage, blamed Texaco's bankruptcy on greedy jurors and market-tested genetically modified foods for Monsanto. PSB introduced to consulting the concept of "inoculation": shielding corporations from scandal through clever advertising and marketing.

In 2000 Penn became the chief architect of Hillary's Senate victory in New York, persuading her, in a rerun of '96, to eschew big themes and relentlessly focus on poll-tested pothole politics, such as suburban transit lines and dairy farming upstate. Following that election, Penn became a very rich man--and an even more valued commodity in the business world (Hillary paid him $1 million for her re-election campaign in '06 and $277,000 in the first quarter of this year). The massive PR empire WPP Group acquired Penn's polling firm for an undisclosed sum in 2001 and four years later named him worldwide CEO of one of its most prized properties, the PR firm Burson-Marsteller (B-M). A key player in the decision to hire Penn was Howard Paster, President Clinton's chief lobbyist to Capitol Hill and an influential presence inside WPP. "Clients of stature come to Mark constantly for counsel," says Paster, who informally advises Hillary, explaining the hire. The press release announcing Penn's promotion noted his work "developing and implementing deregulation informational programs for the electric utilities industry and in the financial services sector." The release blithely ignored how utility deregulation contributed to the California electricity crisis manipulated by Enron and the blackout of 2003, which darkened much of the Northeast and upper Midwest.

Burson-Marsteller is hardly a natural fit for a prominent Democrat. The firm has represented everyone from the Argentine military junta to Union Carbide after the 1984 Bhopal disaster in India, in which thousands were killed when toxic fumes were released by one of its plants, to Royal Dutch Shell, which has been accused of colluding with the Nigerian government in committing major human rights violations. B-M pioneered the use of pseudo-grassroots front groups, known as "astroturfing," to wage stealth corporate attacks against environmental and consumer groups. It set up the National Smokers Alliance on behalf of Philip Morris to fight tobacco regulation in the early 1990s. Its current clients include major players in the finance, pharmaceutical and energy industries. In 2006, with Penn at the helm, the company gave 57 percent of its campaign contributions to Republican candidates.

-snip
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070604/berman

GO AHEAD AND IGNORE BUT AT THIS COUNTRIES OWN PERIL. THERE IS A REASON THE WELL RESEARCHED FOLKS AT KOS HAVE TURNED THEIR BACKS ON HER! THEY WON'T VOTE FOR HER AND NEVER WILL I!


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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. Should I bring up Obama's neoliberal DLC advisors?
You know Kos won't. Neither candidate is pure here. They are both politicians. And they are both public servants. This thing of characterizing Clinton as TEH EVIL and Obama as the saint is just propaganda IMO. And misleading, too. That's what bugs - he's obviously chosen a side & made sure that his own opinion has domination over a website of thousands of people. So now Clinton Kossaks have to fall in line w/his own opinion, or fall by the wayside? How is that democratic?
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. "Obama, by the way, repudiated the organization three times" GO TO THE DLC WEBSITE
WHOSE PICTURE IS THERE?

READ THE ARTICLE:

Clinton isn't just a member of the DLC, she's in their leadership. Obama, by the way, repudiated the organization three times (it's a great story, which I tell in my forthcoming book).


SPEAKING OF NEO-LIBS DLC TIES TO PNAC:

Al From is founder and chief executive officer of the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC), a dynamic idea action center of the "Third Way" governing philosophy that is reshaping progressive politics in the United States and around the globe. He is also chairman of the Third Way Foundation and publisher of the DLC's flagship bi-monthly magazine, Blueprint: Ideas for a New Century.

As a founder of the DLC -- birthplace of the New Democrat movement and the Third Way in America -- and its companion think tank, the Progressive Policy Institute (PPI), From leads a national movement that since the mid-1980s has provided both the action agenda and the ideas for New Democrats to successfully challenge the conventional political wisdom in America and, in the process, redefine the center of the Democratic Party.

-snip

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=86&subid=191&contentid=1131



Will Marshall, the head of PPI signed PNAC letters.
(Called "Bill Clinton's idea mill," the Progressive Policy Institute was responsible for many of the Clinton administration's initiatives...)
Starting right after 9/11.
***************************
Along with such neocon stalwarts as Robert Kagan, Bruce Jackson, Joshua Muravchik, James Woolsey, and Eliot Cohen, a half-dozen Democrats were among the 23 individuals who signed PNAC's first letter on post-war Iraq. Among the Democrats were Ivo Daalder of the Brookings Institution and a member of Clinton's National Security Council staff; Martin Indyk, Clinton's ambassador to Israel; Will Marshall of the Progressive Policy Institute and Democratic Leadership Council; Dennis Ross, Clinton's top adviser on the Israel-Palestinian negotiations; and James Steinberg, Clinton's deputy national security adviser and head of foreign policy studies at Brookings.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0522-10.htm

More about Will Marshall
Note the PNAC link to the left.
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1295

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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. That changes my point how?
Doesn't change the fact that Obama's top economics advisor is a DLC neoliberal. And it doesn't address my post at all - whether it's fair for the administrator of a Dem website to basically dictate what opinions Democratic bloggers are allowed to have. Love or hate her, Clinton has the support of at least 40% of Democrats in this country. Those opinions don't matter? They shouldn't be expressed? Daily Kos hasn't endorsed Obama AFAIK, but this action of basically driving off & jeering at the supporters of one candidate is almost worse. How will these people view the "liberal blog/grassroots" that we're counting on for a Dem victory in the general election? How is it a good thing to alienate a large portion of Democratic voters? But I can tell no matter what I say, the response will just be a fresh torrent of Clinton hate.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. OBAMA HAS DIRECTLY REPUDIATED THE DLC-HAS CLINTON? NO HER PICTURE
SHOWS HER IN A LEADERSHIP ROLE.


Keep your blinders on, but I keep posting this to educate folks who care the learn the truth. There is a reason that the majority of folks here, Daily Kos, Huff Po, TPM (commenters) are over whelmingly opposed to Clinton and won't vote for her. They are aware of what she stands for. They were willing to take the time and research the candidate.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. Clinton = TEH EVIL
Check. Avoiding my questions, posting more anti-Clinton hate? Check. Oh, well. I've also taken the time to research the candidates, as have many Clinton supporters. People can disagree without being evil, stupid or ignorant, & that's something that many partisans on either side seem to have forgotten.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. Actually, if you read my post I posted facts with links that folks could research on their own.
It's a nice try to simply brush FACTS aside with accusations of "Clinton-hate" but if you took the time, and actually researched the connections:

JACKSON STEPHENS

CLINTON'S MINING DEAL

EAST LIVERPOOL TOXIC WASTE INCINERATOR

TELECOM ACT 0F '96

NAFTA

CLINTON ADVOCATION OF 90'S BANKING MERGERS

MARK PENN & WHO HE REPRESENTS

DLC TIES TO PNAC

You might actually get a better picture of the candidate you support!
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. See, I know all this
And it's patronizing to assume that I don't - that's the assumption that a supporter of the other candidate must be stupid, ignorant, and/or evil. I just DISAGREE and have a different opinion. That's the beauty of a democracy, where people can form and express different opinions in their speech and their votes. My position is that it's profoundly undemocratic for Daily Kos to basically force all the bloggers to think the way he does & have the same opinion he does; and counterproductive, as well. Because he's driving people away from the medium that we want to attract more Democrats to use. But I guess they've got to be the "right kind" of Democrats - the ones who have the same opinions we do, support the same candidate we do, have the same positions we do. I'm not a fan of purity tests as a rule, and especially when it involves basically pushing Democrats out of the very medium that can help Democrats gain a victory in the general election.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #64
65. You mean this democracy that Bill Clinton SOLD OUT TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER?
After Mining Deal, Financier Donated to Clinton

By JO BECKER and DON VAN NATTA Jr.
Published: January 31, 2008
Late on Sept. 6, 2005, a private plane carrying the Canadian mining financier Frank Giustra touched down in Almaty, a ruggedly picturesque city in southeast Kazakhstan. Several hundred miles to the west a fortune awaited: highly coveted deposits of uranium that could fuel nuclear reactors around the world. And Mr. Giustra was in hot pursuit of an exclusive deal to tap them.

Unlike more established competitors, Mr. Giustra was a newcomer to uranium mining in Kazakhstan, a former Soviet republic. But what his fledgling company lacked in experience, it made up for in connections. Accompanying Mr. Giustra on his luxuriously appointed MD-87 jet that day was a former president of the United States, Bill Clinton.

-snip

snip

"Kazakhstan’s president, Nursultan A. Nazarbayev, whose 19-year stranglehold on the country has all but quashed political dissent."

"Mr. Nazarbayev walked away from the table with a propaganda coup, after Mr. Clinton expressed enthusiastic support for the Kazakh leader’s bid to head an international organization that monitors elections and supports democracy."

-snip

Just months after the Kazakh pact was finalized, Mr. Clinton’s charitable foundation received its own windfall: a $31.3 million donation from Mr. Giustra that had remained a secret until he acknowledged it last month. The gift, combined with Mr. Giustra’s more recent and public pledge to give the William J. Clinton Foundation an additional $100 million, secured Mr. Giustra a place in Mr. Clinton’s inner circle, an exclusive club of wealthy entrepreneurs in which friendship with the former president has its privileges.

LINK:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/us/politics/31donor.html

CLINTON WAS WILLING TO ENTHUSIASTICALLY SUPPORT A KNOWN OPPRESSIVE TYRANT TO OVERSEE FOREIGN ELECTION MONITORING? WHY? FOR A LARGE CASH DONATION. NO WONDER THIS COUNTRY IS GOING OVER THE CLIFF!
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #65
71. *rolls eyes* nt
Edited on Tue Mar-18-08 09:14 AM by Marie26
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. VERY TELLING. and we wonder why there is hatred towards this country.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. LOL
Yeah, that's the ticket. Why do Clinton supporters hate America? And then people wonder why they're driven off sites like Kos. Like it or not, millions of good, decent, Democratic Americans support Hillary Clinton - keep that in mind.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. I don't believe they hate America, I believe they don't want to face the facts of just who/what they
support.

Thanks for your kicks. the more exposure this info gets the more it will enlighten the uninformed.

peace. (or is that a sore point?)
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #59
63. and Keith Olberman, and Air America Radio Hosts, and Stephanie Miller, and Ed Schultz....
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
60. Obama, by the way, repudiated the organization (DLC)three times
one of Kos' best diaries
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InAbLuEsTaTe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
66. Kos: telling it like it is. Sorry if some of you can't handle the truth. I know it hurts.
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
68. Kos, sadly, is the one that wants the civil war. And he is truly into pushing it hard.
He started early on with the booing of Hillary when she attended his conference, and he has not let up for a second.

One could assume by his actions, Kos is indeed obsessed with this hatred of Hillary.

Any of his followers that do not see his obsession are merely giving the widdle boy a free pass.

Kos needs medical attention.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. Why don't you read some of the substance as to why he is against her. THERE ARE VALID REASONS!
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #68
76. Actually, Kos is formenting a peasants revolt against the Dem hierarchy
At least that is what his book "Crashing the Gates" reminded me of.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
70. You are so mean helping to expose some of what is really going on.....
i think i'm going to :cry:
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