I really don't see the appeal of Clinton.

[Liberal Veteran]

Let's be honest, the 90's were fairly decent economically for many of us, but when it came to pushing a progressive agenda through, the Clinton presidency was hardly a roaring success or even a whining success.

We LOST the congress.

We got welfare reform which basically pulled the safety net out from under people.

We got all those wonderful free trade agreements that were followed shortly after that by the tech exodus and to a slightly smaller extent, a manufacturing exodus.

We got DOMA.

We got that less than stellar period of Bill's tryst (and while I agree it is none of our business, the fact is, given the fact that he was under constant investigation, that was ridiculously stupid).

Our party got moved further and further to the right.

We saw no reining in of the health care costs.

We saw no loosening of regressive drug laws.

We saw backward progress on equal rights for gays and lesbians and no real leadership from the top, particularly after that gays in the military debacle.

We saw an almost 2 decade delay in universal health care even being discussed.

We saw no reining in of media consolidation.

We saw a loosening of lending and no leadership to stop risky/predatory lending.

I'm just hard pressed to see why we want to relive the 90's.

[redqueen]

1. Not only was there no loosening of regressive drug laws...

IIRC Clinton was in office when states started enacting medical marijuana laws...

Also, no reigning in of privatized prisons.

www.americandrugwar.com

[Jed Dilligan]

56. Don't forget the Omnibus Crime Bill that made drug sentences LONGER

[MH1]

2. Agree, with one amendment.

"We saw no reining in of media consolidation."

Actually we saw the Telecommunications Act of 1996, which as I understand it, greatly enabled significant further media consolidation.

[GhostofSandpiper]

3. There was a reason Alan Greenspan called Bill

"The best Republican President we've had in a while."

[jconner27]

4. Cut and paste the RNC website I see

U Obama supporters are so full of crap... U trash anything to make cult leader Obama look good. What's the appeal to Obama? He pretty much co-opt John Edwards 2004 platform he like an expansion hockey team in the south they look good with their uniforms and their arena looks nice but the foundation of the team is very faulty.

[totodeinhere]

8. Calling Obama a "cult leader" is flame bait.

And in so far as Obama might have adopted some of the platform of John Edwards, that's a good thing. Edwards is well respected in the party and anyone coming up with a platform could do far worse than adopting some of his work.

[Liberal Veteran]

19. I think it's laughable that some people are shocked that our candidates share some ideals.

Hell, I'd be shocked if Clinton, Obama, Edwards, Kucinich, Richardson, and Gravel were are diametrically opposed to one another.

[papau]

23. Obama adopts Edwards platform for campaign - but tells CNBC that programs won't pass so

don't worry about cost (Kudlow program - said by chief economic adviser to Obama)

[TheDoorbellRang]

37. No link, right?

And there wasn't a link the last time this bullshit got posted, either.

[SammyWinstonJack]

39. As an Edwards supporter, when has Obama adopted any of Edwards' ideals?

And co-opted doesn't count. Frankly I can't stand Obama and if his huge ego had not gotten the better of him and if he had upheld his promise to fulfill his Senate term, Edwards would have been our Dem nominee. Obama is an egotistical empty suit.

[totodeinhere]

42. I was responding to the OP's claim that Obama is using the Edwards platform.

My response was if Obama is doing that it's not a bad thing.

[Recursion]

58. Agriculture policy

I was really happy to see Obama essentially adopt Edwards' platform on this.

[Liberal Veteran]

10. Hell, the RNC would be HAPPY about many of those things I listed.

If the truth hurt, too damned bad, but if you can't back up your accusations with better than accusing me of plagiarism, then you should leave this discussion to the people more qualified.

[dionysus]

69. U R a n00b troll i see....

oh noes...

[dsc]

5. Do you all think we have amnesia?

Seriously, some of us actually remember the 1990's. Health care costs rose at less than the general inflation rate for almost the entire 1990's. And on gay rights all of the following happened. Every single solitary federal department with the exception of the uniformed military went from not permitting gays to be employed to permitting gays to be employed. This was due to Clinton's executive order. The first sub cabinent level gay person was confirmed by the Senate and the first openly gay ambassador was appointed (recess appointment).

[Liberal Veteran]

13. Meanwhile, nearly every state in the union was passing anti-gay legislation.

And BILL SIGNED DOMA!

[dsc]

35. actually even that is untrue

we went from about 5 states with ENDA style laws to about a dozen. Yes, many marriage laws passed, which Bill Clinton both had nothing to do with nor could stop (aside from the federal one) but at the very same time by the end of his administration all of New England, Hawaii, Minnesota, New Jersey, and Maryland all had gay rights laws.

[Liberal Veteran]

40. I don't remember Clinton speaking out against DOMA or refusing to sign.

Guess he just threw us under the bus.

And with the signature we saw more and more anti-gay legislation being introduced throughout the states.

He turned his back on the gay community and did what was politically expedient rather than what was right.

[dsc]

43. again, just plainly false

DOMA passed in 1996. The laws, as opposed to the Constitutional amendments, passed before DOMA did in many cases. Yes, some states did pass laws after but the majority who did pass laws passed theirs before DOMA was passed.

[Liberal Veteran]

44. That's just not true. Between 1996 and 1998 27 states passed laws to outlaw gay marriage.

But thank you for playing.

[dsc]

67. DOMA passed in late 1996

and something like half of those 27 states passed their laws before DOMA. I said many cases not all cases.

[elfin]

6. I don't either - but my sister

and her husband love her .As teachers, they identify with the blue collar vote and like her scrappiness as compared to Obama's erudition and smoothness.

They do not think Obama is a "fighter" against the powers that have robbed us our (and future generation's) future

[blm]

7. Bill oversaw the closing of books on IranContra, BCCI and CIA drugrunning which would've prevented

any remote chance of a Bush ever getting NEAR the WH again, let alone living in it.

The fuller revelations of those matters would've prevented a 9-11 event, the whole 'war on terror' and this Iraq war.

All that got protected was BushInc and his powerful cronies.

[Johnny__Motown]

9. We saw no attempt at an energy policy even though there was a huge projected surplus

This is why we are in our current situation.


Make no mistake, it takes years, even decades to make the changes we need to in regards to our energy consumption. Jimmy Carter told us in the 70s that we needed to change. Bill did nothing, never even an attempt. Think about this the next time you go fill up your tank or pay your gas/electric bill.

[Froward69]

14. Here Hear!!!

[papau]

18. wrong

[uponit7771]

27. Wright ? LOL...k, right?

[papau]

32. read up

[C_U_L8R]

11. And don't forget the Supreme Court

No coattails on those Clintons at all.

[2rth2pwr]

12. She didn't belong to Wright's church

that is going to be a huge appeal for many.

[NorthernSpy]

34. in other words, Hillary gets the retard vote...

If that's their big deciding issue, then those people are retards.


Retards.


No other word will do: they are retards.

[goodgd_yall]

52. Speaking of "retard"

Rev. Wright actually used that term jokingly in a tape showing the church performing HIV testing on its clergy.You can catch it on YouTube.

[2rth2pwr]

63. Do you have an issue with people that have mental disabilities?

[LSparkle]

15. I don't want to go back to the '90s -- let's REALLY start the 21st century!

Thanks to retro Shrub, we never really GOT to move into this new century. He brought back
voodoo economics, retread Cabinet members ...

But we don't need to go back to the divisive politics of the '90s; we need to come up with
something new. The great economy Bill got some credit for was in actuality thanks to the
growth of the internet and the tech sector, which he really had nothing to do with. NAFTA
was new enough that its impact wasn't fully felt during his administration, but that's a piece
of legislation that had a DEFINITE negative impact on the economy, yet he seems to avoid the
blame for that disaster that just keeps on giving (us all nightmares).

[papau]

16. Amazing - reject competence/experience/prior results of 22 million jobs and peace - say energy

policy did not exist by ignoring the 6 year car program that got Detroit up to speed with hybrids and a 70 mpg Ford based on off the shelf parts showcased in 2000 -

Man - Obama folk are either good at forgetting or pretending.

[Liberal Veteran]

24. I guess that would explain why 99.9% of our hybrids on the road are PRIUS.

But I guess I wasn't aware that Toyota was based out of Detroit.

[papau]

30. 94 program - before Prius - Detroit dropped - Clinto paid $1 Billion to show how easy it was

to do - but big oil/Bush got Detroit to not change

The only thing we got was the 2000 demo cars - modified production cars getting 70 and 80 mpg

[Liberal Veteran]

33. Not to put too fine a point on it, but many of Clinton's compromises are why 2000 happened.

One of the big things that hurt us was allowing media consolidation which favored the republicans and hurt Gore.

[roseBudd]

36. And he really screwed us with the Clenis, he should have just yanked it on a webcam...

from the waist down of course

[Liberal Veteran]

41. That was just an example of extremely bad judgement.

Personally, I couldn't care less if he was fucking Socks the Cat, but I having a sexual tryst while under the microscope is something I just don't fathom.

[roseBudd]

45. Technically you could pin the Iraq War & Katrina & Roberts & Alito on Clenis

[Liberal Veteran]

46. I will concede the Lewinsky scandal hurt Gore in the GE.

Sort of the same guilt by association that many of the Hillary supporters want to tar and feather Obama over.

[papau]

47. the 12 to 6 media consolidation pales beside the 400 to 12 caused by Reagan - by 96 too late

[Liberal Veteran]

48. And what work did he do to reverse it? NOT A DAMNED THING!

He enabled it.

[Recursion]

60. No, we're good at remembering losing the House and Senate

And watching the White House co-opt 3/4ths of the Contract On America.

A lot of us at and under 30 feel like the 1990's were those of you old enough to have 401k's selling the rest of us down the river for your inflated retirement accounts.

[Arugula Latte]

17. A thing that royally screwed us: The Telecommunications Act of '96

That one left a mark. A BIG mark.

[papau]

31. not really - Reagan 83 change moved 400 owners to 12 by 96 - the new law cut it to 6

[uponit7771]

20. Don't forget the tearing down of the wall between bankers and analyst!! Clinton didn't veto it

[dailykoff]

21. Undeclared war on Iraq, killing hundreds of thousands of children

Complete with sanctions, bombs, and lots of rhetoric, just like the first Bush admin.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

22. ...

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[uponit7771]

25. I liked Bill better then than now, Hillary!? She gets on my damned nerves

[Liberal Veteran]

29. I'm certainly not saying the Clinton administration equalled that abomination of Bush's reign.

But for me, the politics of the Clintons has always been making pretty speeches about liberal/progressive ideals and then folding when met with any opposition.

[starroute]

26. He left Iraq to just fester under sanctions

Half a million dead Iraqi children, and Madeleine Albright said, "We think the price is worth it."

[styersc]

28. Not quite an accurate memory of the 1990's.

Clinton was a triangulator who compromised on many issues, including gays in the military but there were victories and many of the losses were not all Clinton related.

Clinton was masterful at stopping the Gingrich revolution. When Newt tried to get ballsy and shut down the government, Clinton turned it back on him and caused the nation to question the ethics of conservatism.

The courts moved left compared to the court stacking that had taken place during Reagan/Bush and then Bush/Quayle.

Welfare reform and NAFTA were forced upon us but Clinton/Gore altered the bills to answer progressive concerns such as access to services for welfare recipients (not a "cold turkey" that was on the table) with safety and environmental issues answered in trade bills.

You speak about the economy as though it was an easy task. Clinton ended "trickle down", ridiculous GOP economic policies, led us out of recession and into the steepest, sustained growth in history- all while building a surplus where the GOP had left giant defecits.

The defeat of "Hillary-care" came at the hands of the Democratic Senate, many of whose members we call progressives today.

Support Obama if you wish but to try to demean hard fought victories is uncalled for and dishonest.

[BlueJac]

38. You are sooo right on this issue!!

Blind loyalty is dangerous. People actually want more privatization, more media consolidation, and all the rest of the shit that got us to this point. When Clinton kept Greenspan, I knew then, we where in for more of the same. The 30 year old plans of the Freidmanites is coming home to rest. If you don't think so, pick up a real book and read it. Your eyes might just open for a micro second before you start marching in the trickle down economics line.

[nolabels]

59. Many people like to deny they are living with an elephant in the room

One thing is for sure and that is he wasn't so much of a leader but more of a finisher. Tweaking and molding so all those things would seem more palatable to the general public.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

49. Clinton undermined efforts to stop genocide in Rwanda.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/mar/31/usa.rwanda

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200109/power-genocide

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?pid=1353

[goodgd_yall]

50. Clinton did the most for gay and lesbians than any president

He tried to end discrimination in the military. That was a damn bold move, especially after the moral majority had made such headways in the Reagan years. Clinton appointed quite a few lesbian and gay people to various posts.

You should read this to see what his accomplishments were in advancing LGBT rights: http://clinton2.nara.gov/WH/Accomplishments/ac399.html

And just the fact that Hillary tried to get health care reform passed was another bold move. Anything resembling socialized medicine has been anathema to Republicans and even some Democrats. She misjudged how strong the opposition was. Now she's learned and has put forth this more palatable proposal that still involves insurance companies.

Clinton appointed Ginzburg, one of our more liberal Sup. Ct. judges. Thank god, we still have her.

In a lot of ways Clinton was a centrists, but I respect what he was able to do for the LGBT community.

[Liberal Veteran]

51. And he rolled over on DOMA.

He threw us under the bus and he didn't have to.

[goodgd_yall]

53. It's been said

it was passed to prevent a constitutional amendment against gay marriage. You can or cannot believe that. But there still was a lot of progress for LGBT people as has been noted upthread and in the link I provided you. Look, nobody that I see running for president is going out of their way to end marriage discrimination against gays and lesbians.

[Liberal Veteran]

54. 27 states passing anti-gay legislation is hardly a huge victory.

[Voice for Peace]

55. Interesting thread, thank you!

[DemzRock]

57. Fairly decent economically? It was a freakin' economic miracle... n/t

[Liberal Veteran]

61. It was great until the jobs started going overseas.

A lot of people lost jobs in the south when the textile mills all went under.

[Recursion]

62. Really? Did real wages rise?

Profits were up. Great economy if you had a 401k. Really really bad if you were just starting out, because prices were soaring while wages were stagnant.

[Liberal Veteran]

64. It wasn't a really bad economy, however, I'm one who lost my job to "free trade"

After putting in four years of college, I had to drain out what little I had in my 401k to change careers after my job was outsourced to Canada and India.

Then just to kick me while I was down, I wasn't covered by NAFTA protections because my company didn't make a physical product.

[Recursion]

65. Same story, mostly

Except my job ended up going to Indonesia, so I can't blame that on NAFTA.

[helderheid]

66. Here is a LTTE in my local paper today:

Hillary and Bill
Public Forum Letter
Article Last Updated: 03/17/2008 07:18:41 PM MDT

How does a feminist reconcile the fact that along with Hillary goes Bill Clinton, a notorious misogynist who has abused a parade of women? Hillary stood by her man even as he testified falsely under oath to a court and the American people. Yes, Hillary and Bill are tough, but their fighting nearly shut down the government and paved the way for the Bush presidency.
Since leaving office, Bill Clinton has used his prestige to conduct shady business at home and abroad. These deals and promises will burden Hillary. She has been with Bill so many years that by now you have to ask if she is an accomplice. She claims his experience, so why not his offenses? What informed woman would vote the Clintons back in the White House?

Lilian McLaren
Salt Lake City

[undeterred]

68. You need a microscope to see it.

[LanternWaste]

70. But that's just me-- the 90's were much better to me than the 00's.

To me, the big differences between the nineties and the current regime are-- gas prices, food prices, no trillion+ $ war. Maintenance and enlargement of worldwide friendship and respect.

I was courted by many prospective employers and could choose which job I wanted that I was offered.

I had relatively affordable health insurance.

As I'm not a Victorian prude nor do I push my sexual standards in the faces of other, Pres. Clinton's dalliances are completely irrelevant to me-- as are those of any politician.

But that's just me-- the 90's were much better to me than the 00's.