Five years. Five FUCKING YEARS, people. Five years of war and death, and slaughter of

[Redstone]

innocents, including BABIES. Little tiny girls and boys, who never did a Godalmighty thing wrong to ANYONE. Murdered in their hundreds, indeed in their thousands.

And for what? for nothing.

All for nothing. For five fucking years.

And what's our response, we caring DUers? We call the supporters of the candidate who we do not favor all manner of vile names, and argue the most idiotically obscure "talking points" to death.

When REAL death is happening in Iraq.

For nothing.

One word, before I go: Perspective. That word means, among other things, remembering what's important.

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

1. K&R big time!

[Redstone]

8. Thak you for the K, and also for the R. Though it doesn't seem like the denizens of GD-P

want to take even a second out from their rabid attacks against one or another candidate's supporters and think about the things that affect other people's lives FOREVER, not just for the length of the Primary season.

Ah, well, at least YOU did. and I thank you. Also the other DUer who responded. Even if only two people care, that's better than none.

Redstone

[MichiganVote]

26. Lot of political virgins and outright trollies stirring up a bunch of nothing...

Ridiculous.

We all know there has to be change. We all know a day of reckoning has been coming. Some of us have already lived through several of these. I don't like them any better than anyone else. And to be sure there is a greater amount of corruption in the US, its successive and so on.

BUT.

Wasting time and energy on paltry and petty differences will not win the GE. People need to get some balance in their heads.

My wish is that none of this whoring war on terror had ever started. But it did. My psychological Grandmother used to say, "I don't care who started the fight, I care about who ends it".

We need to end the occupation of Iraq. Its over. Done. Finished. As finished as its ever going to be. The shame belongs with us so long as it is continued. We can't unring the bell but we sure as hell don't have to keep killing people to prove we did it.

So, yes, K&R to your post Redstone. Screw the rest of the people who want to go on and on about some preacher I've never even heard of and couldn't care less about.

[Redstone]

55. Well-said, MV. Well-said, indeed.

Redstone

[Forkboy]

2. Longer than we were in WW2.

:kick:

[Redstone]

13. By far. And getting longer each day. And nobody seems to care (but you do, and

I appreciate it).

Redstone

[cali]

20. I'm sorry, but if you think that not posting in YOUR thread

means people don't care, you're being waaay too egocentric.

[Forkboy]

27. "Seems" would be the operative word.

And Redstone is right. I never hear people talking about it IRL anymore, unless I bring it up, and even here on DU there are very, very few threads on it anymore. So yes, at times it SEEMS as if people don't care anymore. :shrug:

[MichiganVote]

30. The truths most of us have known are now hitting the population big time.

The more aware the population becomes....the quieter we become. Hopefully actions speak louder than words in November.

[Forkboy]

33. I know a lot of people upset about the war lost a lot of fight when the Dems betrayed them.

My best friend had never voted in his life (he's 46) but the war pissed him off so much I was able to convince to vote, and vote Dem. When they got in and then backtracked and chickened out he said to me, "Why did I bother?"

And I had no good answer.

[MichiganVote]

35. I know....and frankly, I think the same way. And I live in Michigan :)

[cali]

31. I brought up a couple of weeks ago

and there were hundreds of posts on my thread.

[Forkboy]

38. One thread.

I'm glad you started it, and wish I had seen it myself (unless I did and forget...my memory is shaky lately lol), but face it, how many do you see overall? I remember when we had bunches of them daily, every death, every lie by the BFEE. Now, we have the odd thread here and there.

Again, Redstone didn't say nobody cared, just that it seemed that way sometimes...and it does. If it doesn't seem that way to you that's fine, but I think you're taking offense where none was really intended. :shrug:

[MichiganVote]

29. Do you find it necessary to fight with everyone? Are you the appointed moralist

for people on this board? If you disagree with posters, fine, who cares? If you have an opinion, state it and move on. The poster is lamenting some obvious facts, the war continues, people die, and we hear nothing on the news, in the press, and even on this board---not so much.

Did we all miss your memo that a person cannot post those sentiments in the midst of the altogether predictable Clinton or Obama festival of spite?

You begin your post with an "I'm sorry"...what the hell are you sorry for? Is that your idea of a polite intro to 'in my opinion you're full of it'? That is sensible?

Your posts goad people into mental indigestion Madam. Walk away from a few of these threads that you feel you must correct us all on. We'll manage to live without your sincere indignation---again.

[Redstone]

56. Where did I say that?

Redstone

[JVS]

3. but we gave them freedom. just ask hillary

[BringBigDogBack]

5. yeah, thats it.

[Redstone]

10. For Christ's fucking sake, this is not about Hillary or Obama. What part of that don't you get?

Redstone

[JVS]

12. hey don't blame me for pointing out that one of our candidates contradicts you

[Redstone]

15. You've never been in a war, have you? You've never seen the dead children, obviously, or

you wouldn't be so fucking flippant.

Redstone

[JVS]

19. Do you have a point here?

Look, I pointed out what she said, if you have a problem with that, it's not MY problem. Or if you want to be pathetic about it, go ahead and get mad at me for pointing out what she said. Blame me for her position, it's all my fault. Would that make you feel better?

[Redstone]

22. Nice try. No, actually, not so nice; so weak as to not be worth a response.

You'll have to do better than that.

Redstone

[JVS]

23. here, I'm interested in your thoughts on this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5128499&mesg_id=5128499

Think you can handle it?

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

34. I post information relevant to the issue of the war, Redstone gives some ad hominem BS about not...

having been in a war, and I'm not going to let that bullshit ride. He still won't face up to the fact that Clinton has spoken of Iraqis getting the gift of freedom, preferring to attack me personally. If you don't like it, nuts to you.

[MichiganVote]

36. Well have you ever been to war? Answer the man's question.

[JVS]

39. Not that it's any of your fucking business, no. But who addresses the point that Hillary...

is totally contradicting the point made in the OP?

[MichiganVote]

44. Well Hillary Clinton hasn't ever been to war either so at last...

you have something in common.

[JVS]

46. Yeah, but I never helped start one.

[MichiganVote]

47. Oh yeah you did baby and so did I. We all did. We all use oil, we all loves

our US and its rich culture. Everybody has had some part in this. Every single one of us. But you may not agree or see that until later on.

[JVS]

50. Sure, honey. Whatever you say. Hillary must be right. The gift of freedom forever.

:eyes:

[JVS]

42. Have you been to war, or don't you believe in Hillary's gift of democracy?

[Forkboy]

41. You came into this thread and turned it into something it wasn't intended to be.

I wish you could see that.

But, carry on with your bad self. :shrug:

[JVS]

48. If this discussion of the war is to be divorced from discussion of the politicians, then why put...

it in GDP.

I don't care what is intended. He called the war one thing, a candidate for our nomination disagrees with him. These divergent views should be reconciled.

[Forkboy]

53. Just a matter of respect, though I understand your point about putting it here.

Maybe Redstone wanted us to take a break from bashing each other over the head for a single minute to think about this minus the antagonism. :shrug:

[JVS]

57. At the end of the OP are the folowing words

" Perspective. That word means, among other things, remembering what's important."

Now, to have a discussion that begins with a description of the futility of this war and its destruction (about which I agree with Redstone) that is unable to address the comments made by Hillary Clinton today that this war has given Iraqis the gift of freedom, is so devoid of perspective that it goes beyond being myopic to being completely blind.

While I understand the urge for many people to tell GD:P to not bicker. To dismiss the kind of justifiable criticism and even outrage that Clinton's gift of freedom remark provokes is not telling us to stop bickering, it is in effect telling us not to think. One of these candidates will be our nominee and to dismiss the gift of freedom comment under the guise of neutrality, or staying above the fray or whatever, is a complete failure to actually consider where these candidates stand on the issue of the war and what they can be expected to do.

[MichiganVote]

32. Oh yeah, that's right. Next to you we were all born yesterday.

[JVS]

37. Ok. That's a nice pissy answer, but does it address what Clinton is saying about Iraqis being...

given the gift of freedom.

What does your being born yesterday have to to with that?

[MichiganVote]

40. No, that's not really pissy for me. But since you want to discuss Clinton

go fetch Fido, start your own thread. You know, Obama said this, Clinton did that, I hate so and so. No, I hate so and so worser.

You know the drill honey.

[JVS]

45. God forbid the actions of the people responsible for running the country be discussed...

in a discussion about the war. Go fetch yourself, rex.

[MichiganVote]

49. Like I said, start a thread, you should have 100 replies in no time.

[JVS]

51. Starting another thread would be calling the OP out. I won't do that.

He can deal with the contradiction between his words and Clinton's here.

[MichiganVote]

54. He sure can.

[Redstone]

60. I agree with that poster 100%. Next question?

Redstone

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

4. You can thank Hillary for that!

[Redstone]

11. See my reply #10. You're part of the problem.

Redstone

[JVS]

14. no. she's part of the problem. sorry you have to face that

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

25. That would require taking responsibility, which some are just incapable of doing.

[BringBigDogBack]

6. K&R

[Mooney]

7. Thank you for posting this.

The Iraq war is easily the worst thing my country has done in my lifetime. And watching supposed progressives rationalize it, minimize it and make excuses for it breaks my fucking heart.

[BringBigDogBack]

9. you and me both.

[Redstone]

17. You're more than welcome. And thank YOU for your reply.

Redstone

[bullwinkle428]

16. And yet so many American Sheeple are willing to continue

this madness, with no end in sight, by their indicated support for McCain over whomever the Democratic candidate might be!! TOTALLY DISGUSTING!

:mad: :grr: :argh:

[Redstone]

18. Disgusting, and inexplicable as well.

Redstone

[angie_love]

21. Kick

I was really excited that we could have a democratic president in the white house this year. But with all the sniping going on with democrats attacking democrats and democrats using wingnuts arguments to attack a fellow democrat its looking more and more like Grampa McCain will be president. You know things are bad when a DU'er compliments Fucking Hannity!!! Well, I don't give a shit anymore.

I don't have a mortgage to pay, I don't have mouths to feed, my healthcare plan is just fine, I don't have family in Iraq, so if America really wants a rethug president, then I don't feel sorry for America any longer. If America thinks life will be better under another rethug president then let them see how wrong they are. They are already paying the consequences of a Bush presidency and all I can do is laugh. If Gramps is president, I'll just laugh harder b/c the things affecting them will not be affecting me. The economy is in a recession but it does not affect me. It continues to boggle my mind why any middle class person in their right mind would want a rethug president who is not looking out for their own interests but the interests of the richest 10%.

The people I do feel sorry for are my fellow democrats who are genuinely struggling to get by.

[Redstone]

24. "Grampa McCain?" I've not heard that before, but I really like it! I do hope it turns into

some kind of meme in the General Elections.

I like the rest of your post as well. I am, in some respects, in a situation sililar to yours. But so many people are not, yet they don't seem so be able to vote in their own self-interest.

I gotta go now. But again, thanks for your reply.

Redstone

[SeattleGirl]

43. Well said, sir!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[bridgit]

52. Yep, 5 years & counting nothing being done about it amidst a cacophony of idiotic blather...

and the sound of tippy tapping keyboards

[mtnsnake]

58. It's like a never ending nightmare. We can barely imagine how bad things are over there

with soldiers and innocent people being ripped to shreds, lives and families shattered forever...and for WHAT??

[JVS]

59. How dare you denigrate the Gift of Freedom that Goddess of Peace has declared them to be enjoying?

[Redstone]

61. Now all of a sudden you AGREE with my originalpost?

What a chameleon you are. I envy your ability to change your colors so quickly.

Redstone

[JVS]

62. What are you talking about. I think the war sucks and is pointless, always have.

What I don't like is that people claim that a woman who just today claimed that we have given Iraqis the gift of freedom and attempts to justify that war is actually opposed to the war. And if pointing that out makes me a bickerer, I'll gladly bicker until my death.

[mtnsnake]

63. Why would you go so out of your way to rain on such a good thread as this??

There's a time and place to piss and moan about a candidate, and this isn't one of them. For you to marginalize how I or anyone else feels about the horrors of war is out of line in a thread like this one.

[JVS]

65. Your candidate opposes the point made in the OP.

[LordJFT]

64. Yes lets commemorate the people that lost their lives rather than glorify the war

[GeorgeGist]

66. What would Jesus do?

send God's chosen victims to heaven,
or back to the hell they deserve?