We bombed their country, hung their leader, put his sons' bodies on public display....

[madfloridian]

We attacked a country that was no threat, we executed its leader. Our country lowered its moral and ethical standards, our media became the outlet for the government. We lost our credibility in the world.

We invaded a country based on lies, we executed its leader in a botched hanging, and we showed it on our television mockingly. We also mockingly showed the dead bodies of his two sons on our national TV.

We destroyed their infrastructure, damaged their water supply, rationed them to about an hour of electricity a day. The number of innocents we have killed is even hard to establish.

I kept waiting in vain for someone in our party to speak out and say how very wrong all that was. No one did.

In a speech in Pittsburgh, Hillary Clinton said these words....I wanted to scream when I heard them. How dare she sound so pompous and arrogant. How dare she ignore all the damage we have done...the torture, the killing of innocent civilians, the destruction of their infrastructure.

"And I believe that at the same time that we have to make clear to the Iraqis that they have been given the greatest gift that a human being can give another human being – the gift of freedom. And it is up to them to decide how they will use that precious gift that has been paid for with the blood and sacrifice and treasure of the United States of America.

Hillary and Iraq

How dare she say that? How could she get the words out of her mouth?

I keep wondering what the world would be like today if our Democrats had not listened to her husband's words about it being better to be strong and wrong than weak and right.

"The last point I want to make is we've got to be strong," he declared. "When we look weak in a time where people feel insecure, we lose. When people feel uncertain, they'd rather have somebody who's strong and wrong than somebody who's weak and right." Actually, this was also the first point he made in his hourlong speech, and he repeated it many times throughout. Supporting the war is insufficient, Clinton warned. "I approve of what's being done in Iraq now and the way it's being done, but it's not enough," he said.

What if we had not been "wrong and strong" about Iraq?

Three of our main Democratic leaders got advice about Iraq from Clinton advisors. Two stood up against it anyway. Others did not.

We lost our moral authority in the world, we lost our souls when we invaded and bombed that country.

We lost our moral authority again this week when a Democratic candidate for president said the Iraqis were given a precious gift by us. It is beyond belief, it is beyond honest, and it is way beyond what our country used to stand for.

Hillary, you keep talking about how Obama only had a speech. No, he did not just have a speech. He had integrity and foresight and wisdom.

Shame on you.

[maddiejoan]

1. He had integrity and foresight and wisdom.

"There’s not much of a difference between my position on Iraq and George Bush’s position at this stage" --Barack Obama 2004

[madfloridian]

3. He did not tell the Iraqis how lucky they are we invaded them.

Put the context. Link.

[maddiejoan]

4. Google it

it's easy --and it's fun!

[madfloridian]

32. So you think what Hillary said was ok.

As someone said today.....oh...never mind.

[maddiejoan]

34. Yes

I do.

I very much do.

[madfloridian]

39. That's very sad.

.

[maddiejoan]

41. okay

:shrug:

[Recursion]

66. Then enlist

As someone who served in Iraq and can't sleep all the way through an average night I feel physically assaulted by her comment.

[Binka]

84. Indeed Maddie Should Enlist!

Fight them over there Maddie! Support Hillary's bloody fiasco. Enlist Maddie! Show them what you got! Sorry for your struggles dmesg Maddie has no fucking clue. Little keyboard warrior has better things to do.

[HughBeaumont]

86. Unconscionable.

Seriously. This is shameful.

[Danger Mouse]

93. Then go down to your recruitment center and show your support for Hillary and the war...

and you can personally ask the Iraqis how grateful they are that we invaded them.
:puke:

[beezlebum]

99. really?

wouldn't you want and even expect her to not sound so much like the administration that "duped" her? wouldn't you expect she'd be a little more critical of what the US has done in Iraq, and what the US is doing?? a little remorse and anger after being "duped" into responsibility for all the atrocities?

oh. wait. i forgot. she wants to kick back and stay for a while, make the US right at home. that's right, she's in the same league as mccain. silly me.

you know, i watched a speech of hers this weekend, and i thought, maybe i could actually vote for her without feeling so ill over it, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. but you and she both reminded me why it would be so painful to do so. but i don't think i'm going to have to worry about that.

[denem]

102. So you think what Hillary said was ok. Maddie: Yes, I do. I very much do.

ZYes, about atleast murder, I mean death isn't sexist, right. Sexual orientation blind killing. You make me sick.

[Drachasor]

73. Googled. I guess the question is: Did you want Bush to win in 2004? Obama sure didn't

From Obama's interview on Meet the Press last year:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21738432/page/2/

MR. RUSSERT: You were not in the Senate in October of 2002. You did give a speech opposing the war. But Senator Clinton’s campaign will say since you’ve been a senator there’s been no difference in your record. And other critics will say that you’ve not been a leader against the war, and they point to this: In July of ‘04, Barack Obama, “I’m not privy to Senate intelligence reports. What would I have done? I don’t know,” in terms of how you would have voted on the war. And then this: “There’s not much of a difference between my position on Iraq and George Bush’s position at this stage.” That was July of ‘04. And this: “I think” there’s “some room for disagreement in that initial decision to vote for authorization of the war.” It doesn’t seem that you are firmly wedded against the war, and that you left some wiggle room that, if you had been in the Senate, you may have voted for it.

SEN. OBAMA: Now, Tim, that first quote was made with an interview with a guy named Tim Russert on MEET THE PRESS during the convention when we had a nominee for the presidency and a vice president, both of whom had voted for the war. And so it, it probably was the wrong time for me to be making a strong case against our party’s nominees’ decisions when it came to Iraq.

Look, I was opposed to this war in 2002, 2003, four, five, six and seven. What I was very clear about, even in 2002 in my original opposition, was once we were in, we were going to have to make some decisions to see how we could stabilize the situation and act responsibly. And that’s what I did through 2004, five and six, try to see can we create a workable government in Iraq? Can we make sure that we are minimizing the humanitarian costs in Iraq? Can we make sure that our troops are safe in Iraq? And that’s what I have done. Finally, in 2006, 2007, we started to see that, even after an election, George Bush continued to want to pursue a course that didn’t withdraw troops from Iraq but actually doubled down and initiated the surge. And at that stage, I said, very clearly, not only have we not seen improvements, but we’re actually worsening, potentially, a situation there. And since that time I’ve been absolutely clear in terms of the approach that I would take. I would end this war, and I would have our troops out within 16 months.

[Drachasor]

74. Full context: He compared Kerry and Bush's positions; basically said they have the same goal

Which was a stable Iraq.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/378/

"On Iraq, on paper, there's not as much difference, I think, between the Bush administration and a Kerry administration as there would have been a year ago," Obama said. "There’s not much of a difference between my position and George Bush’s position at this stage."

"How do you stabilize a country that is made up of three different religious and in some cases ethnic groups with a minimal loss of life and minimum burden to the taxpayers?" Obama said later in the interview.

[Johnny__Motown]

7. On how to proceed from that point. Not on how we got to that point. You need to distort to debate

Once the bus was driven into the ditch there were only a few ways to try and get it out again.


Besides we all know that in '04 the Democratic party made the mistake of nominating someone who voted for the Iraq war. Other Dems who opposed the war needed to watch what they said so that those words could not be used to hurt the party.

Lets not make that mistake again.

[rug]

8. "Today the Iraqi people have found justice in the death of a dictator who brutalized . . . "

http://obama.senate.gov/press/061230-obama_statement_40/

[maddiejoan]

11. ruh roh

[Drachasor]

75. That's a problem for the OP's point of view, not an issue of Obama's consistency or integrity

[Blarch]

23. "at this stage"

After the war started honey.

[maddiejoan]

26. At that stage

I wasn't in line with Bush's stance.

Were you?

[Drachasor]

76. You didn't want a stable Iraq? So I guess you hate the troops AND the Iraqis

Or maybe you just like misrepresenting others.

[stevedeshazer]

27. How can you defend this?

The illegal and immoral invasion of a helpless nation with no WMD?

Have you no conscience at all?

[maddiejoan]

30. I'm not

who said I am?

Obama sure seemed to be though.

[stevedeshazer]

33. How so?

[maddiejoan]

35. ???

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5128499&mesg_id=5128533

[stevedeshazer]

59. Oh, okay then.

[Drachasor]

77. That doesn't imply he was for invading Iraq. He was clearly saying he wanted a stable Iraq

[Drachasor]

78. If you misrepresent him, I am sure he does. I'm pretty sure Hillary could be misrepresented too

I'm too classy to do that, however.

[madfloridian]

29. The war began in 2003, the vote was 2002.

By 2004 there was a difference. Even Dean was saying it would be hard to get out, that we might have to stay.

[maddiejoan]

36. Is that the same thing as Bush's stance?

of "Stay The Course"?

[madfloridian]

40. If you think so.

And you apparently have the need to think so.

[maddiejoan]

43. Did you have the same stance as Bush in 2004?

[Drachasor]

81. In the sense that Obama referred to, I hope so. I hope we all wanted a stable Iraq.

[UALRBSofL]

47. One can be a hypocrite if one

voted for Kerry in the GE in 2004 instead of a protest voting third party. But if it had been a woman candidate in 2004 I'm sure no one would have voted for her. I'm not sure how one can vote for a a IWR candidate in 04 and degrade a IWR candidate in 08 without being able to call themselves a hypocrite.

[Drachasor]

80. You make do with the options you have

Voted for Kerry in 2004 was definitely better than Nader, for instance. You pick the best guy available, even if he is far from perfect. If you are a member of that guy's party, then you might have to swallow some of your opinions for a time or avoid mentioning them repeatedly -- especially if it is a critical election, which 2004 was.

[Drachasor]

79. Reading Comprehension: Give it a try

He was clearly saying that Kerry, Bush, and he all had the same goal: A stable Iraq. Learn to get the full quote:

"On Iraq, on paper, there's not as much difference, I think, between the Bush administration and a Kerry administration as there would have been a year ago," Obama said. "There’s not much of a difference between my position and George Bush’s position at this stage."

and later:

"How do you stabilize a country that is made up of three different religious and in some cases ethnic groups with a minimal loss of life and minimum burden to the taxpayers?" Obama said later in the interview.

[Alter Ego]

91. And the truth finally comes out.

Surprise! If you read the quote IN FUCKING CONTEXT, it actually makes sense!

[Drachasor]

82. It's: On Iraq, on paper, there's not as much difference, I think, between the Bush administration...

...and a Kerry administration as there would have been a year ago," Obama said. "There’s not much of a difference between my position and George Bush’s position at this stage."

[Recursion]

68. As Themistocles said...

...although we now recognize this empire was wrong to grasp, we shall find it exceedingly dangerous to release.

[beezlebum]

100. this

isn't about clinton's vote for war or obama's stance 4 years ago (although you've removed all context, as seems to be the norm for some very sad rw-esque progressives here recently).

this is about clinton TODAY. these are clinton's words NOW, 6 years after being "duped" by the * admin. doesn't sound reminiscent of someone who was "duped," unless she's going to next claim she was "duped" into thinking that iraq was the new hawaii.

[leftstreet]

2. "the gift of freedom"

:mad:

[HysteryDiagnosis]

5. More like.... "The grift of greedom", if you know what I mean, n/t

[LordJFT]

6. Next thing you know she'll be giving GLBT a gift by not repealin DOMA and

workers a gift by outsourcing their jobs and innocent civilians a gift by cluster-bombing them

[goodgd_yall]

9. If you think Obama isn't going to praise the troops for their work in Iraq

you've got another thing coming to you. Clinton said this (Iraqis being given a gift of freedom) in a Town Hall Meeting in Austin. She was talking to 2 Iraq War veterans. The context was in answer to a question on what she was planning to do about Iraq. In this context she said this as a way of saying the veterans' efforts were not in vain. You and I may think differently. But you're not going to have ANY presidential candidate say the fighting was in vain, or destroyed Iraqi lives, or anything like that without also saying something in favor of the U.S. military.

[madfloridian]

12. No, No No....she was not praising the troops. She was rationalizing

the war. That is not praising the troops.

She praised the invasion as a glorious thing.

[goodgd_yall]

14. I'm telling you about the time I first heard these words.

That was the context. It's a way of talking to the American people about withdrawing without equating it with defeat. It's what many American people would want to hear.

[beezlebum]

104. .

[leftstreet]

13. She could thank them without pumping sunshine up their asses

No one would expect any current candidate to say Iraq was "in vain." But claiming the Iraqis have been given a "gift of freedom" is reprehensible.

[goodgd_yall]

16. Many Americans,

particularly those undecided between voting Republican or Democrat, would disagree with you. I know you realize that there's more out there than this little bubble that is Democratic Underground.

[madfloridian]

18. Then we should be telling them the truth. Not telling lies like that.

That is something our party has not done...and it needs to happen.

I am sick of this kind of stuff.

[goodgd_yall]

20. I'd like that to happen

But if our candidate talks like that, fuhgettabout getting elected to executive office. I don't really think we've changed so much that people can hear the truth.

[madfloridian]

24. There is no excuse for what she said.

.

[leftstreet]

22. LOL yes every day I hear Americans say they want MORE war!

:rofl:

[goodgd_yall]

38. THIS is what I said many Americans would disagree with:

"But claiming the Iraqis have been given a 'gift of freedom' is reprehensible." Many Americans need to believe the deaths of American men and women had a good purpose. If someone is told "you did your job well, and you've gotten rid of a dictator and allowed the possibility of a democratic government for Iraq, but now the rest is up to the Iraqis," I think the imminent withdrawal of troops becomes more palatable.

[leftstreet]

46. The Dems took the midterms with anti-Iraq rhetoric

Now the DLC wants to do a bait/switch?

HRC needs to stfu about Iraq.

[madfloridian]

51. You are right....time to speak out.

[goodgd_yall]

54. Different tactics are needed in the GE campaigning n/t

[JuniperLea]

25. Well said... all the way down this thread...

It's good to see rational thought here today... there's so little of it left on DU.

Perspective is everything. Context gives perspective. Some choose not to find it... sadly.

It's time to support the party, IMHO... to speak in positive terms about whomever we support. Spring break from the schoolyard, so to speak.

[uponit7771]

10. Hillary should just shut up and let this Wright thing play out

[Andromeda]

28. Get real.

The news media are having a field day with Mr. Obama's pastor (or should I say ex-pastor).

The Clintons have wisely chosen not to comment on Mr. Wright and just let Obama twist in the wind. Nobody believes Obama didn't know about Wright's hatred of whites. It's ludicrous for him to pretend that he didn't know what his pastor was all about.

It's not pretty. BO just might become the candidate but he won't win the GE because there's too much public sentiment against him and I don't mean here at DU. The general public is not too happy with Obama.

[bhikkhu]

67. ...and slavery was a myth, and Jim Crow an invention.

Read a little history - what part has your own party had in this, what part has your own country had. We don't have the luxury of inventing our past, and then teaching it to our thoughtless children. In a free society history is what it is - one election and one pragmatic throwing of an old black man under the rolling bus changes nothing.

Obama is not Wright, not his world-view or his politics. Thank god the country has come this far, and who would wish to turn it back?

[Cha]

15. And hilary's out there sputtering

Orwellian words on "freedom".

Thanks a lot, Elton John, for raising money for this hilarycrap to continue.

[arewenotdemo]

53. What's next? Baghdad Freedom?

`cause I live and breathe this Baghdad freedom
From the day that I was born I've waved the flag
Baghdad freedom took me knee-high to a man
Yeah gave me peace of mind my daddy never had

[PerfectSage]

17. I was right. In Mar 2003 I guessed Iraq would turn into a quagmire like Viet Nam

"We lost our moral authority in the world, we lost our souls when we invaded and bombed that country. "

That is so true: Wars are won and lost on the Grand Strategic/moral level.

There is a huge difference between thinking your military is the greatest and actually have the grestest military.
It's simple. The organizational culture in the pentagon sucks.

Gobama!
Go Deans 50 State Strategy!
Go Grassroots!

[Cha]

57. A lot of us on DU did think that would happen..

Obama was right on target and hilary and mccain are trying to worm their way out of being held responsible.

[Thurston Howell III]

19. Though I couldn't care less about Saddam and his two sons,

Wally and the Beave, to this day I do not see how in the hell the U.S. - citizens - can tolerate this botched job!!! My God! Have we passed 4000 American lives yet? It just wasn't worth it!

[madfloridian]

21. We never openly killed leaders and their families before...

and we never openly showed it on TV and bragged about it.

[Thurston Howell III]

31. I do agree! And that was pretty bad. But I still couldn't care less about them.

[psychopomp]

44. Well, there was Khaddafi's daughter

But, yeah, I thought the display of the sons was reprehensible. I avoided seeing them for about six months 'til somebody slipped the photos into a thread on DU. :\

[madfloridian]

37. Now I get it. What she said is ok, because we need to play along to win.

Got it. I have seen several in this thread say that one way or the other.

Will we ever learn?

When we stop questioning our leaders we end up attacking other countries, and we end up telling them how the hell lucky they are we invaded them.

Good Lord, that scares me.

[goodgd_yall]

45. Go ahead---don't play along

and lose, and have another 4-8 years of Republican rule by a man that will never withdraw troops until the "job is done," whatever the hell that means.

[Thurston Howell III]

48. Playing along is what has caused this.

[TwilightGardener]

42. She's an awful neocon, trying to justify the unjustifiable bloodshed and disaster.

She's just not a good person.

[DeschutesRiver]

49. Iraq

The war in Iraq is a mess. I have no issue with those who were sent there, but do with those who sent them. One of them was Sen. Clinton, no matter how inconvenient that fact is today for her personal ambitions.

As for the poor man whom we hung, and his boys too, I have not a shred of compassion. No more than they did as they committed so many atrocities and caused such paralyzing fear in an entire country that it will realistically take a couple of generations to undo that kind of fear based brainwashing. My god, a wood chipper to silence voices, and so much more that it make me ill to know such evil exists.

Those who call Iraq home didn't deserve a life terrorized by a psycopathic family; nor do they deserve what we've dished out to them. There are very good people there, and I don't know what the hell to do to help them out of the latter, without abandoning them to a new hell. It is an absolutely grim situation.

[madfloridian]

50. I don't think you got the point. It is not our place to execute leaders

of other countries and then boast.

I am amazed at how few people get that point.

It was not our place.

[DeschutesRiver]

61. if

you are responding to my post - for sometime now, world leaders have had a pact not to kill other world leaders. If you look at distant history, it hasn't always been that way, but if we want to live in a civilized world for long, well, it isn't gonna happen unless there are some basic ground rules. There is no special exception we've made for those leaders who happen to be natural born killers who take over countries and inflict misery; rather it is just the rules we all have decided to play by.

But I wasn't discussing that issue. I am saying I have absolutely no issue with the fact that he and his offspring are as dead as all of the Iraqis he tortured before he executed them.

[Forkboy]

52. If Bush said this Hillary supporters would rightfully be tearing him a new asshole.

[goodgd_yall]

55. But that's just the point

When Bush says something like this, it has a whole different meaning. He really believes that shit. He has believed it from the start all the way to now, never having a doubt he did the right thing. Hillary knows we did the wrong thing and is finding a way to talk about withdrawing troops in a way that Americans can accept (the "sacrifice" was not in vain, now Iraq has to take responsibility).

[madfloridian]

63. Did you read the quotes in the OP. The Clintons both supported the Iraq debacle.

They were not against it.

[Recursion]

69. Oh, great, so it's *dishonest* pandering

That makes me feel so much better :puke:

As Truman said, given the choice between someone who is a Republican and somebody who just talks like one, Americans will choose the real thing.

[Umbram]

85. Good quote. (nt)

[Major Hogwash]

71. No shit.

But, it depends on who said what when and where and under what circumstances now, not then.

"Gawd damn America" is the same way I felt when Bush was selected by the Supreme Court in 2000.

Guess that makes me a bad guy.
Oh, well.

[madfloridian]

56. "Where date palms grow"...a blog about that freedom we gave them.

http://citycalledhell.blogspot.com/

Five long years.....

most of them in tears..

so many have left Home...

the lucky reside in Tombs..

at least some still live

though without a Soul..

I wonder how much more to go?

would I be buried at Home?

"I assume I’m one of the few lucky people who have survived Iraq, looking back the years, though I truly try not to, I only remember the good things in my life, the gathering of Friends on “Rasseef 28” that’s what we used to call on of our friends front door because we used to gather there nearly each day when we were teens.

Cruising the streets of Al-Mansour and going to Al-Sa’a'ah Restaurant. Then when I really miss home I call some of my not so fortunate friends who have either never managed to get out of Baghdad or are (Visitors) of Syria, Egypt and (this you will not Believe) Darfur, Sudan and Ghana!!!

I then feel that my Heart has collapsed on itself. Or like its being squeezed inside some kind of a vice."

More from another blog.

http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/

Monday, December 24, 2007
He tried to explain to me the changes that have taken place in Baghdad, he said that the situation is about 5% better than how it was when I was Iraq, he says "do you remember the men we used to see on motorbics who used to kidnap people and kill people? Alqa`ida men?" I said "sure", he goes "well, yeah, now they call themselevs the Awakening men of Adhamiya, they have removed Alqa`ida masks from their stinky faces and now wearing the masks of the awakening wave, he said you would be amazed if you come to the area and see the checkpoints ran by even children, you may see a 14 year old kid rasing a gun in your face and asking you to obey him in order to check you for guns and explosives, he said the only reason that the situation now is a little better in the area is because the American troops have paid those guys money in order to work with them", he continues saying "the whole issue is about money, give money you get alliances".

That is the freedom we have given them. Going from country to country to find a home.

[madfloridian]

90. Here is more of the "freedom" she claims we gave them.

What a wonderful freedom we have "gifted" to them.

http://glimpseofiraq.blogspot.com/2006/07/goodbye-my-boy.html

There has not been anything from this blogger since 2006, but there is book that was published. This is one of the saddest posts I have seen from a blogger there....the devastating things that happen when you try to force freedom at the barrel of a gun.

"An average parent in present-day ‘free Iraq’ spends a good portion of the day and night worrying to death over his or her children going to school, going out with their friends, being a shade late in coming home or strolling to the neighborhood shop to buy crisps and coke. Their resentment of restrictions over their comings and goings is a constant, never-ending source of friction and battles. Their agony in their sleep soaking wet in their sweat during the long power cuts in the mercilessly hot summer nights of Baghdad is a dull pain of helplessness and fury in the heart.

Most of the time you are sick with worry over their safety and well-being. The knowledge that they are in constant danger consumes you. It eats you alive.

You then realize that it is your love for them that is killing you. You begin to hate that love.

My eldest boy went away 16 months ago. Six months later, it was my daughter. We were left with the little one, not yet 17.

This summer he started working on his all-important Baccalaureate exams (the equivalent of high school). All we wanted was for him to pass that hurdle. But that was not to be. All the many forces of darkness on the loose in Iraq today went into an orgy of killing and senseless violence. It was too much for us. I don’t know how many people can fathom the depth of agony of seeing a loved one in eminent danger and not being able to do a thing about it.

Now my little one too has gone away."

Rather cryptic, not too open, most blogs from Iraq are that way.

They must remember to thank us for our great gift.

[wiggs]

58. When was the last time your heard anyone mention over 1 million Iraqis dead and

4 million displaced? I can't believe the inhumanity of our press, our leaders, and (most of) our people.

It might be tempting to say that some of our candidates are saying what they need to in order to get elected...except that the many votes for war, for Iran resolutions, for war funding only reinforce the words spoken above.

There is no escaping it...EXCEPT to ask the press, pundits, and media to ignore the words, devastation, and lies and focus on tabloid news. Sound familiar?

[Catherina]

60. If I haven't told you this week that I love you

let this be the post.

Thank you.

In the names of her victims, I will never forgive Hillary.

[GeorgeGist]

62. Aren't Christians precious?

Allah must be mighty pleased with Hillary's faith in Jesus' faked-suicide.

[Eurobabe]

64. K + R

:kick:

[Swamp Rat]

65. President Caligula

[K Gardner]

70. Excellent !

[eridani]

72. They probably care more about the bombing than about Saddam and sons

The Shi'ites cheered his execution, and the Sunnis' main problem with it seems to have been that it was carried out on the first day of Ramadan. The Sunni first day, anyway--the Shi'ites start a day later.

[better tomorrow]

83. Bob Stevens put Dubya's daughters on public display and.....

he died of anthrax.....

It seems likely the letter that killed Bob Stevens was addressed to Photo Editor, The National Enquirer. But the address for the Enquirer was no longer current. They had moved to the American Media Building and so it was that the letter came into Bob Stevens hands. Was he the only photo-editor in the building that day? Did he sub for The Enquirer photo editor? Who would have had a grudge against the tabloid and the photo-editor? Well, probably a lot of people, but none of them with this particular weapon at their disposal. No one in the putative CIA/intelligence cabal seems likely to have had any grudge against The National Enquirer either. Except for one. Except for George W. Bush. The Enquirer had published the picture of Jenna Bush, falling down drunk and looking like she was humping another girl's leg.

http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=59708&Disp=1&Trace=on

[madrchsod]

87. she`s a classic neoliberal

she thinks she knows what is best for the Iraqis.

we gave them the greatest gift? the millions that have died since 1991 have missed out on the "great gift". the millions who have watched their country go from a first world to a third world country is not thrilled by our "greatest gift".

maybe we should ask people if they want our help instead of forcing our "gifts" on them

[indepat]

88. Hillary's "greatest gift" line surely is among the most disingenuous/delusional/both ever uttered

by an American politician: she has to be either delusional or telling a monstrous lie that would put most of junior's litany of disingenuous statements to shame. :mad: :mad:

[madfloridian]

89. Making the issues of the other party your own...using them.

"Triangulation is the act of a candidate presenting his or her ideology as being "above" and "between" the left and right sides of the political spectrum. It involves adopting for oneself some of the ideas of one's political opponent. The logic behind it is that it both takes credit for the opponent's ideas, and insulates the triangulator from attacks on that particular issue."
Triangulation politics

Taking their ideas as our own. It has gotten us in a world of trouble. Too many Democrats have tried this for too long. I don't think they realize they are doing it anymore. That's been the third way method for a couple of decades. Went too far with the war, still going too far.

That statement of her was outrageous.

[indepat]

92. So outrageous that I could never vote for her: if she's the nominee, yours truly will sit this one

out and let McCain get on with his hundred years of war over there, laughable on the face of it considering five years in Iraq have largely brought about a four-fold increase in the price of oil, a doubling in the price of many food staples, the dollar's loss of almost one-half of its value against the EURO, a bloody stock market, instability in the capital markets, an economy and jobs market in shambles, and among many others, unsustainable budget and trade deficits which will bring the whole rigmarole to a screeching halt should others ever choose to not continue funding the naked emperor's (junior's) madness. :D

Edited to add a phrase

[dailykoff]

94. Meanwhile, 15 out of 73 members

of the Out Of Iraq Caucus endorse Hillary..

[Speciesamused]

95. Bravo, Bravo, well said.

 This is the reason you are my fav.
 :applause: 

[madfloridian]

96. She said that line "gift of freedom" twice in one day.

Hillary Goes Orwellian on Iraq

""We have given them the gift of freedom, the greatest gift you can give someone. Now it is really up to them to determine whether they will take that gift."

There was nothing accidental about this line. She delivered it in response to two Iraq veterans introduced at a town hall meeting at the Austin Convention Center by her friend and campaign surrogate Ted Danson. She liked the line enough that she delivered it again a couple of hours later, at a campaign-closing rally at a basketball arena in south Austin.

"The gift of freedom" is, of course, a curious way to describe an unprovoked invasion and occupation causing hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths and leaving just about every aspect of life chaotic and fraught with daily dangers. To then lay responsibility for the mess on the Iraqis -- we did our bit, now you do yours -- is the worst kind of dishonesty, a complete abdication of moral principles. It's the sort of thing George Bush has said to justify his decision both to launch the invasion in the first place and then stay the course -- a course Hillary Clinton has spent many months telling primary and caucus voters she thinks was misconceived from the start.

Why, then, is she taking on the president's rhetorical tropes? Could it be she didn't -- and doesn't -- oppose the Iraq war quite as much as she's been letting on?

George Orwell rightly warned us about the way politicians use words like "freedom" when such usage begs more questions than it answers. "Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way," he wrote in his famous essay Politics and the English Language. "That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different."

[defendandprotect]

97. Confiscating their OIL, taking over in the ME, and using the war to make their cronies rich ---

[Fedja]

98. Well over a million

...corpses are surely deeply grateful. As are their families and friends. And the housands to follow.

Millions more who cannot return to their home country for fear of death, injury, and suffering. Grateful.

[Politicub]

101. I wish you would spend more time propping Obama up

instead of working so hard to hear Hillary down. It may be harder, but I think the result will be better overall.

I admired Obama's speech yesterday, and think his ideas are a step in the right direction for America. I'm starting to find within myself the inkling to throw my support to Obama, but then I come across a post by one of his over zealous "supporters," and I just get turned off to the whole enterprise.

Whenever I get the warm fuzzies about Obama, I come to DU and they vanish. Why do you think that is?

[PassingFair]

103. Because you're a Hillary supporter? n/t

[Politicub]

106. I consider myself a democratic party supporter who

happens to be behind Hillary because her policy proposals appealed to me more than Obama's originally. All of the early attacks on her by the MSM galvanized my support, as well as the weird slings and arrows from many DU users (which I'm sure you will point out went both ways, but it felt like the deck was stacked against Hillary at one point)

I'm not childish enough to stay home and stamp my feet if she's not the nominee, though.

Sometimes I wonder if there are troops of trolls that feign support for Obama (or Hillary), and use that as the club to bludgeon out any drive to support either of them. Over zealous supporters can be wearying.

What makes me feel good is to see positive posts about both Hillary and Obama - and posts thoughtfully defending each of them if they are being maligned. But I understand that DU isn't "just for me," so for whatever reason, I come sneaking back, get my beating and then sulk behind the woodshed until I log in again. :)

[madfloridian]

108. Did you read what she said? This is politics, not warm fuzzies.

She said:

""And I believe that at the same time that we have to make clear to the Iraqis that they have been given the greatest gift that a human being can give another human being – the gift of freedom. And it is up to them to decide how they will use that precious gift that has been paid for with the blood and sacrifice and treasure of the United States of America."

In 2003 and 2004 we had hopes dashed just like is happening now. The media is in place to do what they have to do to hurt Obama just like they did Dean in 04.

Hillary is only still in the race because the media is making it sound like she is. The only way she can win is if superdelegates rush to her, and they are not doing that so far.

[Tyler Durden]

105. Clinton supporters should just stop trying to teach the pig to dance.

It is doesn't do any good, and it just motivates the pig to throw more shit.

This is no longer about "Obama GOOD," it's about "Clinton BAD," and you can't fight that.

As my sainted father once said, "Let the asshole have the last word."

[madfloridian]

107. This morning I heard her respond to Bush's speech....

I can't find the quote yet, but she said the war was wrong and failure.

Can't have it all ways.

[truth2power]

109. I am absolutely appalled...

Madfloridian, you are correct in your assessment of this situation. I didn't know Hillary had said that, but I think it's one of the more stupid statements I've heard anyone say for a long while. How could she?...

If she thinks what we've given the Iraqis is called FREEDOM, well, I'll pass, thank you very much. God almighty! We've killed more than a million of their citizens, including their children, sowed their land with depleted uranium, tortured their people, sicced those whacko Blackwater gang on them, given them worm infested, dirty water and hardly any electricity....and on and on and on.

If I had posted that statement on this board and attributed it to GW, there would be 400 posts pointing out how utterly lacking in compassion Bush is.

In the interest of disclosure, I'll say that I wasn't excited about either of the candidates (Obama/Clinton). I did vote for Obama in the primary, but I wasn't enthused about it. In the past few weeks, I've found myself feeling much more positive about Obama, though.

I find it quite ironic that over the past few days the media has hammered incessantly about the Rev. Wright issue, calling Obama to task for something that someone ELSE said. Yet hardly a peep about Hillary's statement. Pathetic!

[vinylsolution]

110. Hillary's shameful record....