What did Obama's Pastor say that isn't correct?

[Postman]

The Press does another disservice to truth by not investigating what this man has said in regards to consequences for actions done abroad...

As I type, Dan Abrams acts like someone just insulted his mother in talking about Pastor Wright's words and Pat Buchanan says he's an "America Hater"...

With this type of analysis is it any wonder that Americans are collectively some of the most ignorant people on the planet when it comes to world affairs....

[GhostofSandpiper]

1. He said God Damn America...

For its racist and imperialist policies.



His strong language abused my innocence.

[Warpy]

3. Yes, and that is bible based preaching

because many of the great names in the bible were very free with their damning of their own countries when those countries strayed from the path they thought god had set out for them.

Context is everything.

Unfortunately, this is country is as religiously ignorant as it is religion soaked. It won't play well in Podunk.

[Postman]

4. Maybe he could have said God Damn the US Government instead of "America"

It may be picking nits but in this country propaganda is everything...

[Uzybone]

18. He is a preacher

he shouldnt say God damn anything. This is why religion is so hypocritical, they talk about love but yet so many preach hate.

[Bill McBlueState]

27. but

the god in the Bible is always damning and cursing things.

[Uzybone]

55. touche

I have no comeback to that.

[noel711]

2. So who's preaching hatred and intolerance?

The ignorant media.

Their racism, for constantly attacking the prophetic
tradition of the AFrican American Church is sickening.

And the arrogance of the talking heads for their judgmentalism
and imperial finger pointing...sick.

[treestar]

5. True and it's just one speech for one day

Why can't people move on?

Everybody has an off day now and then.

And so what if he said it all, what does it do? It's just another idea.

[Chovexani]

6. The government cooked up HIV to kill black people.

For starters.

[malaise]

7. Well the government did infect black men with syphilis

in the past and denied it for decades, so who knows.

[JackBeck]

9. The government did not infect Black men with syphilis.

Tuskegee was an observational study to watch how an untreated syphilis infection ravages the body.

[Dr. Strange]

12. People who understand science know.

Just because the government did some evil shit at Tuskegee doesn't mean you have to buy every conspiracy theory.

[cliffordu]

35. You are defending Tuskeegee??

In any way shape or form??

[JackBeck]

38. That's exactly what their post said.

I admire your observational acumen.

[Chovexani]

39. Check yourself.

No one here is defending Tuskegee. No one. We are stating facts.

The horrors of that "experiment" are bad enough without embellishing them with shit that didn't happen.

[MonkeyFunk]

50. Meh

I was told earlier today that I couldn't be a Democrat - had to be a neocon - because I believed that the government did not create HIV in order to kill black people.

Being a democrat evidently now requires you to believe any dumb shit that comes down the pike.

[JackBeck]

58. My job is a cult, like Liberty University.

And I don't know my BFEE well enough.

Go figure. Prescott created HIV.

[Dr. Strange]

42. Was the font on the "evil shit" part too small?

How did you miss that?

[Chovexani]

20. No, no, a thousand times no, please study some science.

First of all, as someone already told you, there is zero evidence to suggest that the victims of the Tuskegee Experiment were infected by government scientists: these were men who were rounded up because they already had the disease. This is not to minimize the Mengele-esque horrors of that "experiment", this is to correct a widely held misperception of it that I think does a disservice to the victims and their families by misrepresenting what actually happened.

Secondly, the fact of the Tuskegee Experiment does not mean that suddenly every crazy government conspiracy is true. It is scientifically impossible for this particular theory to be true--it would involve some rather spectacular leaps in biology, among other things. I have to dig up the post that Solon wrote on this a few days ago, but for this to be true, it would contradict everything we know about viruses and how they operate. It also makes absolutely no sense, as it is probably the least efficient way to commit genocide (not that the gov't is known for efficiency, but I digress). This particular theory belongs in the "Dead, Illogical Horse" bin along with chemtrails, the Moon landing was faked, and every other crackpot theory heard on late night radio and Tony Brown's Journal.

Look, I'll be the first one to say the government is corrupt and racist as hell, but spreading this Black Israelite horseshit does black folks no good. Is it so much to ask that we stick to FACTS and not the fevered fantasies of the guy selling bean pies and self-published anti-government screeds on Flatbush Ave. The government has done enough really bad shit (like the aforementioned Tuskegee Experiments, and, you know, crack). Talking this nonsense makes us look ignorant, and gives white racists excuse to ignore real issues by dismissing us as crazy.

[MonkeyFunk]

33. No they didn't

and even if they did, that's still not an argument that they invented HIV.

[UALRBSofL]

17. This is what Wikipedia says about him

Critics say that Wright's Black liberation theology promotes black separatism.<9> As recently as February, 2007 Wright's Church listed a 10 point value system including, "supporting black leadership", "black instutitions", and the "black value system."<10> Black columnist Erik Rush, among others, has pointed out that if the word "white" were substituted in a similar value system for a mostly white church it would be labeled as racist. Wright responded to the accusations on Fox News on March 1, saying, "We don't have to say the word white... we live in the United States of White America," and "we've been saying that ever since white Christians took part in the slave trade.". <11> Wright has rejected the notion that he promotes racism by saying that "The African-centered point of view does not assume superiority, nor does it assume separatism. It assumes Africans speaking for themselves as subjects in history, not objects in history."<12>

Some of Wrights most controversial remarks were made in a sermon delivered at Howard University on January 15, 2006. In that sermon he blamed America for starting the AIDS virus.<13> He also said that Americans are "selfish, self-centered egotists who are arrogant and ignorant,". America is also said to have, "put Nelson Mandela in prison", to "believe in white supremacy", and to have, "supported Zionism shamelessly."<14>

During the course of the 2008 presidential campaign, Wright has also attracted controversy for his association with Louis Farrakhan, leader of the Nation of Islam.<15> Wright travelled to Libya with Farrakhan in the 1980s. In 2007, Wright addressed this by saying "When enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli to visit Colonel Gadaffi with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell."<16> In 2007, Trumpet Magazine (published and edited by Wright's daughter) presented the Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. Trumpeter Award to Farrakhan, whom it said "truly epitomized greatness."<17> Wright is quoted in the magazine offering praise of Farrakhan "as one of the 20th and. 21st century giants of the African American religious experience" and also praised Farrakhan's "integrity and honesty."<18> Obama, on the other hand, has strongly criticized Farrakhan.<19>

In addition, Wright has said that Zionism has an element of "white racism", (For its part, the Anti-Defamation League says it has no evidence of any anti-Semitism by Mr. Wright,) and that the attacks on 9/11 were a consequence of violent American policies and proved that "people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just 'disappeared' as the Great White West went on its merry way of ignoring Black concerns."<20>

In one of his sermons shown on the Fox Network and posted on YouTube<21>, Wright states that Hillary Clinton has not personally experienced the discrimination faced by blacks.

Wright's sermons have been discussed in an article on the ABC News Blotter website, edited by Brian Ross. <22> The website has been controversial in the past, due to its penchant for attention-grabbing headlines, some of which have later turned out to be false or without foundation.

According to the website article, Wright has said in a sermon that "The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people". He is also quoted as saying: "God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."

The article also quotes Wright as stating in a sermon relating to 9/11 that, "We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye, We should have nuked Washington DC". Wright is also quoted as saying: "We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost".

[dchill]

56. The theory is out there...

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20030703-9999_7m3boyd.html

http://www.eaec.org/expose/KateMcClureExcllusive.htm

http://mediafilter.org/CAQ/CAQ58TrackGenocide.html

You can't say it's a lie if it can't be proven untrue.

[MonkeyFunk]

69. Of course we can say it's a lie

Not all theories are equal. It's easy to disprove the government created HIV - HIV has been discovered in tissues that predate the ability to make any such virus by decades. I'm not even sure we could create HIV now if we tried.

[napoleon_in_rags]

8. Obama dropped the ball on this one. He became "comeback impaired".

All he had to do in my eyes is talk about Wright's words as an expression of the "pain of living in a divided country" and talk about how seeing this pain over the years inspired him to become a healer of divisions. Why he's letting the media kick him around on this is crazy.

[Skittles]

10. he's being defensive

you are correct; he should take charge

[malaise]

68. Correct n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

11. The real issue is much more about style than words

Some of us know about black churches.

Many of us do not.

For the many who do not (or do not care to), the video clips of the rev are jarring. Context doesn't matter, even if it should. The message doesn't matter, even if it should.

What is seen, in a nutshell, is one of two things:

A hateful black preacher

or

An angry black man

Both scare the living shit out of white people - especially Republicans, conservative Indies, and Reagan Democrats.

[Chovexani]

26. You're only partially right.

For people who purport to know about black churches, there's an awful lot of ignorance regarding Wright's brand of Separatist theology and how widespread its acceptance is in the black church. While there is a great deal of sympathy and support for the idea that the American Dream is largely a myth and that most black people don't buy into the Great American Mythology (an opinion I share), there are many, many of us who don't buy into what Wright preaches. There are a LOT of black folks who disagree strongly with it. Some have come out and denounced it. Others will come to Wright's defense simply because a lot of white people are freaking the fuck out over it.

This is way, way more complicated than "black people see things differently" vs. "black people hate America".

[Stinky The Clown]

31. I never suggested it was "black people see things differently" vs. "black people hate America".

I suggest that the rhetoric and style scare the shit out of a lot of white people.

[Chovexani]

37. Oh, I know you didn't personally

I'm just saying that's how a lot of posters have framed it, and it just isn't so.

FWIW, I completely agree with you on the style/rhetoric thing freaking people out. I definitely think that's what a lot of it is for some people, particularly for white people raised in mainline churches. They're not used to the whole fire and brimstone thing (much less any questioning of the Great American Myth) so it's bound to be pretty shocking.

[havocmom]

13. Still waiting for that myself. Just because he doesn't participate in a delusion....

I think he loves America more than those who insist on turning a blind eye to what needs to be corrected, that America may one day actually live up to the vision of it we like to have.

The overly emotional critics of the gentleman remind me of the too many people who view the world like:



for a better view of the map

Delusional people usually react out of proportion to the stimulus when their delusions are challenged. Seems to be the case here. People don't want to look at what we need to fix. So much easier to chant 'we're number 1' and think we can rest on our laurels. Sadly, that makes America less, not more.

If you love something, you want it to be the best it can be. That is not possible until you see it clearly.

[redstate_democrat]

21. I guess it was no accident that Africa was left totally off that map

[havocmom]

30. ah, you noticed that too

yep

[EmilyAnne]

14. Maybe "correct" is the wrong word because a lot of what he said is unproven and even

unprovable. I think it would be better to ask if there is anything that Wright said that is unreasonable.

[Postman]

24. Actually everything he said is OPINION. So Obama is being attacked for this man's opinion that....

rubs naive, delusional, fairytale land, uncritical boeotian's the wrong way...

[cliffordu]

40. I completely agree.

even if I don't know what "boeotian's" means.....

:hi:

[walldude]

15. Who cares what Obama's pastor says...

Since when is religion a litmus test for liberals?

[Stinky The Clown]

32. It isn't about liberals

It **is** about scared white people.

[walldude]

36. They're playing the crap outta that card...

Rove should be proud.

[Uzybone]

16. Ask Obama

because he also repudiated his words. If Wirght was correct then why is Obama "appalled" by his words?

[UALRBSofL]

22. I often wondered that myself

If Obama supporters are telling us what Wright said was accurate then why did Obama repudiate his words?

[Postman]

29. Because unfortunately in America to tell the truth is a radical act.

And because Americans are soo deluded about their own existence in the world the simple act of telling the truth is a death sentence when running for political office..

Have you ever noticed that the further away from power one is, the more possible it is to tell the truth on matters of public interest? Why doesn't Hillary or Obama talk like Ralph Nader? Nader has no chance of being elected yet he is completely correct about who owns and controls the political establishment in the United States....He is free to tell the truth. He can't get elected.

[Uzybone]

54. So Obama is lying? Lying just so he can be "electable"?

We have to decide what this man is. To me he is just another politician, he has great positions and is a great speaker, but he is not the transformational figure so many here and in the media have been spouting. I voted for him in the TX primary and I'll happily vote for him in the GE, but we have to be realistic about who he is. Thats why so many of the attacks on Clinton hve been unfair IMO. He is doing the same shit she is doing.

[Postman]

60. He's being "pragmatic" not lying...

Obama is not as liberal a candidate that I would like but I believe he would bring more and better Democrats into office by his great ability to motivate people to the polls.

Yeah, he's a politican from a major political party in the United States that is beholden to the power brokers who own the country. Just how liberal do you think he can be at this point and get elected?

[emilyg]

51. Good point.

[JoFerret]

19. A few things but

...he is entitled to his viewpoint. Furthermore his tone and gratuitous cruelty are a style I find repugnant and believe need to be repudiated by everyone. I am hopeful that Obama agrees with this.

[tandem5]

23. Well in those few quotes he was flippant about the adversity women

face in seeking positions of power. But its true when you strip away the sensationalism I find most of his statements to be not that controversial.

[Alenne]

25. It doesn't matter

When Black people mention race it makes some white people feel bad. I don't know why they feel bad. He's not talking about them, just the ones that hate black people.

[BuyingThyme]

28. Jesus was the son of God.

[uponit7771]

45. That's what the bible says Jesus is...

[Freddie Stubbs]

34. His claim that the US government created AIDS to kill black people has no basis in scientific fact

[JackBeck]

41. No, it doesn't.

But he was expressing a pervasive cultural belief that is shared by many in the community.

[Chovexani]

46. Much to my chagrin

But hell, it's no stupider than chemtrails and 90% of the shit on Art Bell.

[JackBeck]

53. I am in no place to pass judgement.

But it's a theory that I spend lots of time trying to debunk during my workshops, while respecting different cultures's frame of referene.

[Chovexani]

63. I try to call stuff like that out where I can

Because it makes us look crazy, and gives white racists a convenient excuse to dismiss legitimate concerns.

I understand where the paranoia comes from--believe me, I know--but at the same time I think it does us a disservice. Uncle Sam's up to enough evil, we don't have to invent things.

[JackBeck]

66. I agree.

I just wanted to share, as I have tried in many of these threads, that I'm actually there on the street trying to engage the community in a conversations about HIV/AIDS, and that this theory is believed by many. And I do my best to try and offer all the facts, through all the research I have done.

[2rth2pwr]

47. That is an evil cultural belief that does nothing but continue to divide

the country.

[JackBeck]

52. That's not for me to judge.

But it is a reality in communities of color that have, since Dr. J Marion Sims, been abused by the government and medical community.

[uponit7771]

44. True, not scientific but because of Tuskeegee the US government has lost benefit of doubt

[Postman]

49. No more ridiculous than Gays, Liberals, ACLU and PFA causing 9/11

somehow that statement by FAllwell and Robertson wasn't attached to George Bush...

[2rth2pwr]

57. There were apologies from those comments, any guess

if Wright will be apologizing?

[JackBeck]

59. Kind of sucks for Falwell that

He took back his apology the week before he died:

http://www.americablog.com/2007/05/cnn-just-last-week-falwell-reiterated.html

[2rth2pwr]

61. That is not what he said, but I am not going to defend

a man like Falwell.

Will Wright apologize?

[JackBeck]

64. You just did.

Falwell stands by his statements over God's lack of protection. A week before he died. Coincidence?

[Postman]

62. Apologize for an opinion? I don't expect him to nor would I want him to.

n/t

[uponit7771]

43. They don't like the WAY he told the truth, if he was chuckling and being happy like Falwell etc then

...it would be more acceptable.

[UTUSN]

48. Uh, he said, "God DAMN America"?!1 Ding ding ding!11 n/t

[Zynx]

65. The idea that there is a single "White America" is a persistent flaw in his argument.

Analyzing 9/11 as an attack on "White America" by "people of color" is such garbage.

His claim that the government cooked up AIDs is garbage.

His entire approach is extremely divisive.

[Postman]

67. I don't think your seeing the forest for the trees...

n/t