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Does Trinity Church, Rev. Wright and the UCC teach hatred and violence?

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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 08:44 PM
Original message
Does Trinity Church, Rev. Wright and the UCC teach hatred and violence?
Edited on Mon Mar-17-08 08:57 PM by grantcart
I am sure that at some point they have taught using the text of John 2:15

"Making a whip of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple, both the sheep and the cattle. He also poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables."

Can you imagine how Jesus would have been youtubed and trivialized?

Of course one of the great ironies of this whole Rev. Wright escapade is the fact that had all of the country's pastors, priests, rabbis and monks had the courage that Rev. Wright had, it is quite possible that the public consciousness would have been raised five years ago to a point that our nation's lust for war may have been stalled long enough for cooler heads to have prevailed.

What we should do, rather than excoriating one of the pastors to actually have the back bone to question the radical change to pre-emptive war, what we should do then, is to ask all religious teachers to show where they were five years ago and what did they do to call this nation to the religious understanding of war as an instrument to be used in only as absolute last resort.

Is Rev. Wright guilty of hyperbole to the point of absurdity - yes. That is a misdemeanor while other religious leaders commit the felony of acquiescing to state violence.

Those religious teachers who cannot show that they advocated restraint of violence are the ones that should be shamed in public, not a marine who in anger goes too far.

I would imagine Bush's pastor would have been found preaching something like, "God wants you to kill bad people". I am guessing that if Cheney ever went to a church he would go to one where the pastor would title his sermon "You were chosen to for power - use it and scare the heathens".



There is a scandal in America about what its religious teachers have been teaching. It is an infectious cancer that has drained the sting of religious images until they read like the platitudes of a Reader's Digest. It embraces power and wealth.

Can you imagine how the same people who are tearing up Rev. Wright would have taken these excerpts from Dr. Kings' sermon on Vietnam out of context and put them on youtube? You can imagine the carefully sliced cuts "America never was America to me"

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/058.html
excerpts from Dr. King's speech
(quoting langston hughes)

O, yes,
I say it plain,
America never was America to me,
And yet I swear this oath--
America will be!

Now, it should be incandescently clear that no one who has any concern for the integrity and life of America today can ignore the present war. If America's soul becomes totally poisoned, part of the autopsy must read Vietnam. . . .

They must see Americans as strange liberators. The Vietnamese people proclaimed their own independence in 1945 after a combined French and Japanese occupation, and before the Communist revolution in China. They were led by Ho Chi Minh. Even though they quoted the American Declaration of Independence in their own document of freedom, we refused to recognize them. Instead, we decided to support France in its reconquest of her former colony. . . . .

Our government felt then that the Vietnamese people were not "ready" for independence, and we again fell victim to the deadly Western arrogance that has poisoned the international atmosphere for so long. . . .

Now they languish under our bombs and consider us -- not their fellow Vietnamese --the real enemy. They move sadly and apathetically as we herd them off the land of their fathers into concentration camps where minimal social needs are rarely met. . . .

I speak for the poor of America who are paying the double price of smashed hopes at home and death and corruption in Vietnam. I speak as a citizen of the world, for the world as it stands aghast at the path we have taken. I speak as an American to the leaders of my own nation. The great initiative in this war is ours. The initiative to stop it must be ours. . . .

This is the message of the great Buddhist leaders of Vietnam. Recently one of them wrote these words:

"Each day the war goes on the hatred increases in the heart of the Vietnamese and in the hearts of those of humanitarian instinct. The Americans are forcing even their friends into becoming their enemies. It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological and political defeat. The image of America will never again be the image of revolution, freedom and democracy, but the image of violence and militarism."

end excerpts

Fox would have chopped the speech and diced Dr. King a million cuts.

At least no one will ever accuse Rev. Wright of the following

Matthew 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

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phrigndumass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Misdemeanor
I can accept that. What I can't accept is that there are other pastors in this nation who deserve vilification much more than Rev. Wright, and who are getting a pass because of the intense focus on Rev. Wright.

Such as Fred Phelps. Where's the uproar over his preaching?

:thumbsup:
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Or all the cheerleaders to violence who now stay in the shadows
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Kaylee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. I can always count on you to bring intelligence into the discussion.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
4. very good post
Thank you for this excellent post, grantcart.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. thank you
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phrigndumass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
5. bump for exposure
:thumbsup:
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
6. Great post, K&R
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. Whipping cords?
Why not a nice miracle?
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Like Sinatra - he did it his way
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
9. I have noticed
That in the last 20 years or so, the work and messages of both Jesus Christ and MLK have had a "marketing make-over". Jesus went from being the radical political activist Prince of Peace to the guy strapped with weapons ready to "defend the homeland", and a small minded judgmental prick. MLK went from being a fiery, political radical activist--in line with Jesus--into some not-so-threatening-to-white-folks guy who gave a couple of speeches and lead a couple of marches.

Both MLK & Jesus would be sliced and diced today to serve the agenda of some very sick & wicked people. It makes me ill to see what is being said and done to the good Rev. Wright.

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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Albert Schweitzer's Quest for the historical Jesus is a stinging indictment of just such using
Christology as a kind of projection of one's own prejudices.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_the_Historical_Jesus
Schweitzer was among the greatest contributors to this quest, he also ended the quest by noting how each scholar's version of Jesus seemed little more than an idealized autobiography of the scholar himself - a criticism suggestive of Ludwig Feuerbach, and still haunts Jesus research to this day.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. I speak only from my own perspective
Edited on Tue Mar-18-08 12:59 AM by me b zola
...growing up in a middle class, white, republican, Catholic home. My devout Catholic republican mother taught me about not judging until you had walked "in another man's shoes". She also drove home the golden rule. I had absolutely no teaching on the Revelations, or any kind of hatred. It was my parents who taught me that if anyone began touting in public their religious beliefs they were probably a con man. I had never in my young life ever heard anyone use Jesus to promote hatred or violence.

I was born in 1963 and went to Catholic school through 6th grade. Was my experience that exceptional? Is my recollection of culture from that time incorrect, or have people with an agenda re-written history? My recollection of history isn't from the time that Jesus was said to have lived, but rather of the time that I grew up. The narrative about who Jesus and MLK were has changed from the time I was growing up. That's all I'm saying.

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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. no you are right - I left the US in the 70s and came back in the 90s
and had a very deep involvement in Church but it had changed so much I couldn't even sit thru a service anymore. It has gotten a lot more conservative.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
12. UCC is descended from the witch-burning puritans
:eyes:

Though, it actually is, historically
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. Not really sure what you meant by your post
The UCC is actually a relatively recent union of 4 different church groups that all came out of the reformed tradition.

You are probably right that you could trace their ancestors back to religious persecution in Massachussetts but that was very common
place with most of the religious groups in the colonies. Jews were legally oppressed by every religious group - except the Quakers.

But what the hell does any of that have to do with the OP?
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Nothing, just trying to be funny
Edited on Tue Mar-18-08 01:30 AM by dmesg
And, apparently, failing. The UCC is about as liberal a denomination as you can get without being UU, is my point, but even they have a past that's questionable.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. got it - no your right and as you point out for the last 50 years they have been
a very prophetic church. i left the church some time ago but across the street from my daughters high school they have a UCC church and right on the sign they proclaim "We believe in a progressive theology and social justice" pretty awesome.

basically every denomination has dirty hands and all protestants eventually go back to Luther.

The anabaptists, the Quakers and the Mennonites are about the only ones that have been ethically driven way back to now. In Thailand I had a friend who was a mennonite who worked at a prothesis factory in South Vietnam. When the communists came they just stayed there and showed up for work the next day as if nothing had changed.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
13. K and R
:kick:
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #13
23. thanks
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
15. Recommended.
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Pablitoclavito Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
16. Is the Pope Catholic?
I mean, what a question.
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phrigndumass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Enjoy your stay!
:nuke:
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phrigndumass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. Thanks Mods!
:loveya:
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