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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:45 AM
Original message
The Swiftboat Fetish and the Collapse of Democratic Politics
Did John Kerry lose the 2004 election behind the Swiftboat ads? It's clear that that thesis has taken on the status of a sacred cow among some Democrats, if only to justify their non-stop attacks as a supposed "testing vehicle," and to warrant all manner of collaboration with right wing stupidity.

It could be, rather, that Kerry lost because he was a bad candidate and because the timing was just wrong, that the thin slice of people who decided the race just weren't ready to change ships mid-course (however disastrous that decision), and that the "Swiftboating" barely affected that decision. But this is the typical anti-democratic tendency of many "professional" and "centrist" and "progressive" Democrats: they take the public for fools, and think they know better; they take the public for an easily manipulable herd that is always subject to the sway of bad arguments. It must be that the decision to vote for Bush instead of Kerry stemmed from the "success" of "Swiftboating." It couldn't possibly be because, for that slice of the electorate, Bush just made a better argument for the position. I know this idea is so far outside of most DUers capacity to imagine that it seems absurd, but that's the problem right there. Your inability to see where the argument was even located or how it worked is the real and root cause for the loss. It's much easier to just dismiss the audience as idiots than it is to figure out a better argument, so that's what many people do: the myth of the Swiftboat, which is always also the myth of the credulous public.

It shows in the approach of some Democrats and DUers, which is condescending to a fault, arrogant without limitation, and very manifestly contrary to their supposed progressive messages. It shows on these boards, where the term sheeple is congratulated rather than critiqued, where opponents are portrayed as slack-jawed imbeciles (I won't even comment on the destructive and self-defeating class-based rhetoric of such portrayals, though it is clearly a big problem). If only the dumb public weren't so stupid, weren't so easily led by demagogues, this theory goes, we would win every time. Because we're just right, harrummph. It couldn't possibly be that people simply - and for good reasons of their own - disagree with the platform or candidate, right? It's because they're stupid sheep. That's the underlying philosophy of all these "But Kerry got Swiftboated" posts. And it is despicable elitist nonsense. The GOP has made good use of it, and will continue to do so as long as Democrats shit on the public at every opportunity, or when faced with any counterargument.

What's devastatingly clear is that the Swiftboating has turned some Democrats into a pack of craven cowards and cringing wimps, deathly afraid of any media story, because deathly afraid of the supposedly credulous "masses." In that sense, it has served its purpose well by removing from a significant portion of Democrats the only thing that really wins elections: courage, heart, boldness, confidence, strength in one's convictions, and clarity of message - paired with compassion, vision, and a capacity to find common ground.
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knixphan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. "a pack of craven cowards and cringing wimps"

Let's NOT be that!!!!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
2. Swiftliars were exaggerated to coverup the rampant election fraud used by the RNC
Edited on Tue Mar-18-08 09:54 AM by blm
as they spent years gaining control of every level of the election process where the votes are allowed, cast and counted.

Had McAuliffe secured the election process and strengthened party infrastructure in all the red and crucial swing states, as Dean has been the last 3yrs, Kerry would have won in a landslide.

But, increasing the influence of the swifts was a necessary factor after the election to divert all attention from the massive election fraud.

You didn't think Terry McAuliffe and the DNC and the TeamClinton loyalists running the party back then were going to assess the campaign honestly and accept blame, did you?

Go back and read the transcripts from the news shows after the presidential debates and you can refresh for yourself that Kerry actually proved to be a great candidate against a sitting president, and many people were swayed by his performances in those debates.

The spinners sure have carried the post 2004 rhetoric, though.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. I don't agree
But, there it is.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Then Dean is wasting his time strengtheing party infrastructure in long neglected states
where the election fraud has been most rampant?

You think there is no difference between targeted state strategy that let so many state parties collapse for years and the grassroots rebuilding of party infrastructure in ALL those neglected states that has been going on since early 2005?

I think there is a huge difference.

Gore and Kerry both won. The RNC stole those elections for Bush and the DNC let them do it.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Gore won; Kerry lost
n/t
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. If that were true then there was certainly a lot of unnecessary acts of election fraud committed
by RNC operatives all over the country. And Dean shouldn't be wasting his time rebuilding all those state party infrastructures.

All we needed was a different candidate. The DNC strategy of targeted states was good. The 50 state strategy is unnecessary, eh?

I think you are VERY wrong. Election fraud and too many state party infrastructures collapsed for years, lost both 2000 and 2004. And 2002, too.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. "All we needed was a different candidate."
Mostly, yes.

It's still useful to rebuild the infrastructure. Outright fraud is not the only issue with infrastructure, and conflating outright fraud with the fifty state issue is, in my opinion, misleading at best.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. You're telling me that RNC didn't carry Bush, he was a great candidate who did everything
Edited on Tue Mar-18-08 06:17 PM by blm
he needed to do and did it well.

The RW media machine didn't carry Bush, he had the better messages and speeches.

Kerry won, he won the debates DECISIVELY, and did it on his own because he HAD NO PARTY MACHINE furthering his positions, and HAD NO LEFT MEDIA MACHINE furthering his speeches and counters.

Replace Kerry with ANYONE you THINK could have won in 2004 and tell me how they would have done WITH the collapsed party infrastructure and no left media that could even get on a playing field with RW machine.

And would they have been able to also counter the undermining of the Clinton team at the SAME time?

As noted here:
http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=13354

As Bill was defending Bush on his entire book tour:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq/

As Carville was sabotaging Ohio Dem voters:
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward


I think you have poor recall of how that campaign actually went down and what all the circumstances were at the time.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
3. Yes, too many Democrats are afraid and scared to death of swiftboating.
Just the mention of it or the threat of it is like the threat of being tortured and it can be used to manipulate them in their fear. Democrats seem helpless in the face of swiftboating and it does make them appear to be feckless.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
4. Great post.
Edited on Tue Mar-18-08 09:52 AM by Scurrilous
:thumbsup:
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phrigndumass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
5. Kicked and rec'd
:thumbsup:
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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
8. Thanks, well said.
Appreciate your post. K&R
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
9. I posted this before Obama's speech
I think other posters are correct that Obama showed the way you beat Swiftboating, not by calculating to avoid it, but by jujitsu.

Of course, he may well lose behind his speech today. But in terms of inventing strategies for dealing with the Swiftboating, he showed us the way: forceful, honest, bold, courageous.

Not this cowardly calculation of the Mark penn's of the world.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
13. self-delete
Edited on Tue Mar-18-08 03:15 PM by Oregonian
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
15. You think that some swing voters did some research on the Swift Boat ads?
Edited on Tue Mar-18-08 06:27 PM by NJSecularist
Fine. That is reasonable. I always say that in every general election that there are 40% of people who will vote for the Democrat, 40% who will vote for the Republican, and then the remaining 20% are the swing voters who decide every election.

Let's just say that 15% of those 20% of swing voters did research on the Swift Boat ads. They formed their own opinions. Some of them voted for Kerry, some of them voted for Bush.

Well, what about the 5% who couldn't be bothered to do some research on the Swift Boat ads? They decided the election.

You are discounting just how these smears infiltrate popular culture and take a life of their own.

Look at the timeline of the polls in 2004. In early August, Kerry had a decent lead over Bush. Not a large lead, but a decent lead. Then around Mid August when the Swift Boat ads hit the airwaves, his poll numbers got progressively worse. He never recovered. From September on, Bush led, often times by more than 5 points in the polls.

These types of smears work. In 2004, the Swiftboat ads worked.

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