Which Obama do I vote for?

[RememberWellstone]

The one who never heard an incidenary speech or the one who heard this type of speech over the past 20 years and never thought it was wrong enough to disagree and walk out?

If this comes to the GE and he gets the nod, I won't someone solid and not a flipper.

And why should I vote for him because of a "distraction"??? This was a distraction? I thought it was about distancing himself from the "fiery" hate-filled sermons from his "Uncle". God, my head is spinning after today. Who is this guy?

[Johnny__Motown]

1. he said comments.. not the sound bites in the clips we have seen. stop the distortions

Your candidate lost, sorry.. better luck next time

[redqueen]

4. I don't know which is more sad...

the possibility that some people around here really can't make that distinction on their own using simple logic... or the possibility that they're just spewing distortions.

*sigh*

[Johnny__Motown]

8. And then they say WE are the ones dividing the party

[parasim]

17. I highly doubt they have watched the speech or read the transcript...

and if they did watch it, they were probably too busy sitting there with they're arms folded, shoulders hunched up, spittin' and sputtering "Damn that good speech-giver!!", to even notice what he was actually saying.

[RememberWellstone]

35. This is sincere

partially tongue in cheek, because we really do not know what he will do. If we cannot trust to come out now and tell why and how, then how can we trsut anything else he promises? Speeches and conjecture are not the problem solver, the truth is IMO. I would have loved to hear him say what he said today, maybe 2 days ago, but no, he lied. He said he never heard that kind of speech, now he has. Understand my confusion. I am more uncertain now than I was last week.

[redqueen]

40. This is sincere, too.

I don't understand your confusion. I can't. People here have tried to explain it... but it's apparently something you're going to have to live with - this distrust of Obama based on "pastorgate".

Here's something I don't understand: Hillary went on talk shows and parroted white house lies about Iraq being a threat. How can you trust her, after that? That's not something as idiotic as what someone's pastor said. That's her, backing up lies, herself, on national tv.

How can that be *ignored* on this site... yet pastorgate is blown up like it's somehow newsworthy?

:wtf:

[RememberWellstone]

43. apples and oranges

This was changed in 2 days. Hillary did not spend 20 years beleiving something that was wrong, whatever her reasons for voting for the war, we can all guess. But, to say something 2 days ago then change it. Sorry for the distrust, but I am more confused about him than ever.

[Johnny__Motown]

47. Again, no. He spoke to a specific and you are generalizing

[redqueen]

48. The thing is, nothing changed in two days.

Depending on your perspective, you either think Obama is flip-flopping or talking about different sets of comments.

I'm concerned about Hillary's refusal to disclose her earmarks and PAST tax returns.

"Pastorgate" is NOT an issue.

Hillary's possible ties to the war machine... well...

[RememberWellstone]

54. 20 years is an issue

I do not care abut who gave money to Obama or Hillary, I am concerned however on why someone would sit under a "fiery" hate-filled relgious bigot for 20 years then not be candid about what he heard on Sunday morning. This concerns me.

[redqueen]

59. I'm now convinced that you're very "concerned" by Pastorgate.

Yes indeed.

[RememberWellstone]

63. Again, my concern

You Obama supporters can continue on as thought his is nothing. It is, it did not get solved today and will come up again with people that are genuinely filled with hate towards our party. Now we have a man who says something one day and changes it completely in two days.

[redqueen]

66. Sorry... no sale.

Those that hate our party are going to do so no matter what anyone says or how many idiotic "reasons" they're fed to justify their hate. Obama's speech was not aimed at Rush's listeners.

[Johnny__Motown]

71. God Damn It,, stop saying that.. he did not change what he said, your lies don't change it

they just showed clips from friday and today on MSNBC

He was clearly addressing the clips that had been on MSM on friday, today he spoke to all the sermons he had ever seen

that is not the same thing

[Johnny__Motown]

62. What concerns you is that your candidate lost and you will attack anyone for any reason out of spite

this is a BS issue



Stop hurting the party



I am sorry your candidate lost, better luck next time

[RememberWellstone]

64. Right.

And I guess the rethugs are just accepting everything you say as gospel?

[Johnny__Motown]

72. Fuck the rethugs, Swing voters are what we need to win the GE, that and our base

so stop dividing the party with your lies

[Johnny__Motown]

58. MSNBC just covered this. you are wrong.. sorry... please try again

[Johnny__Motown]

42. No, he said he never saw some specific quotes from the clips we have seen. Not that he never saw any

sermon that might be considered controversial


You are expanding a specific to a general. That is a distortion

[krawhitham]

26. They have nothing else left to try

[RememberWellstone]

28. Who is my candidate?

Why the proud cock talk? Do you think you can win this election without me? I asked a question that will be asked again and again. You rely upon a speech I am looking at 20 years past.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

2. Oprah had the good judgement to leave Rev Wrights church after only 2 years

[Texas Hill Country]

9. this i was not aware of... and find hilarious.

[Cooley Hurd]

3. Vote for the one who PROVED today he's a leader?

There's a start.

:eyes:

[RememberWellstone]

36. He led today?

How so? What did he do to change the racial equality? What did he say today that he did'nt say 2 days ago that was true or false? He said he never heard this typw of sermon, now he has? When did it change?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

53. led?...this was a forced speech to try and defend his judgments...he confessed

after lying about it many times to us that now he says "he was present for those sermons"

[Cooley Hurd]

83. I saw not one bayonet pointed at him...

It was a speech that spoke to our better angels, well, at least MOST of our better angels. If you were unmoved by his address, I guess I feel pretty sad for you...

[ElsewheresDaughter]

91. oh I was very moved by his speech but it still doesn't make his lie alright

[BklynChick]

5. read it again. no contradiction there.

[RememberWellstone]

57. Yes, there is.

Hence my post. If I am not clear then what do you think the MSM and rethugs will do?

[ColbertWatcher]

6. The one on the ballot in November n/t

[islandmkl]

7. sounds like you are ready to vote for McCain if Hillary can't make the dance....

if Obama makes your head spin you should have your equilibrium checked...

it apparently hasn't been working for you for some time, now....

it is so much easier when people just say "I can't stand Obama" and not waste time with rhetorical BS.....

[RememberWellstone]

38. NEVER! Vote McLame!

I am so tired of this go vote Republican if you don't like what you see. Why no tell the candidate not to lie? I am sick of rethugs and their tricks of old, but now I am seeing the same thing on our side.

[LSK]

10. would Paul Wellstone be posting right wing talking points???

The Obamas you describe are nothing at all like the ones that I have heard about.

[movonne]

33. That was my very though...I don't think Wellstone would be a Hillary

supporter...he was a progressive and not DLC..

[RememberWellstone]

39. What talking points?

Jeeezus H., why do I have to posting anyone's talking points? WHy can I not ask this hard question on my own? Seriously? Was he lying to us 2 days ago or is he doing this for political reasons?

[LSK]

56. neither, you are building a strawman of what he said

[RememberWellstone]

61. Based in reality

straw man or not, ignoring this will not make it go away. Are we supposed to just say" Oh, yeah, he was'nt there but he was there?"

[sorrybushisfromtexas]

11. RememberWellstone

You are ignored.

[RememberWellstone]

29. I am hurt.

These are real questions that need to be asked and not ignored.

[keep_it_real]

12. Obama said he heard "controversial" remarks

Not "incendiary speech"

[ElsewheresDaughter]

18. Obama lied to us in the past few weeks and now he confeses that he was "present in church"when .....

I have already condemned, in unequivocal terms, the statements of Reverend Wright that have caused such controversy. For some, nagging questions remain. Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely - just as I'm sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed.

[RememberWellstone]

41. What were they?

Was it the we invented AIDs to kill black people? Or was it we bombed the twin towers? What was contraversial? Again, you are sharing no light on the subject matter. I am sorry, I am getting beat down from asking a serious question.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

It's odd that his personality is so genuine, but he lies all the time

Most politicians come off as phony. Barack seems authentic, but he lies as readily as any politician out there.

It's a distinction that isn't drawn much... that affectation of personality (phoniness) and dishonesty (lying) are different traits

[SammyWinstonJack]

74. I don't find him genuine at all. I find him arrogant. And he lies, repeatedly.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

13. Obama confesed in this speech that he had been present in church for these sermons......

but many did not hear it for some reason. Obama denied it many times in the past few weeks but, now that he knows there are videos of him being there he makes a forced confession in this speech and we're suppose to give him a pass?

Hell even Oprah left that church years ago when she heard the bigoted racist batshit crap Rev Wright preached.

[GoldieAZ49]

14. Vote for the one that gave this speech to Wright 20 yrs ago so he would stop teaching

racial anger fear and divisiveness and anti American BS from the pulpit to thousands that looked to him for leadership


let me know when that Obama shows up

[helderheid]

15. And which Hillary should I vote for?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JtdwcbqeE5s

[Rosa Luxemburg]

19. There are many more Hillary's than 1 Obama

Sybil

[meow mix]

16. oh god... my eyes are totally rolling..

:eyes:

[flyarm]

20. boy, what a couple days can do to change ones statements.

Obama last Saturday:


"But the sermons I've always hear were no different than the sermons you hear in many African-American churches. I had not heard him make such, what I consider to be objectionable remarks from the pulpit. Had I heard them while I was in church, I would have objected. Had that been the tenor of the church generally, I probably wouldn't be a member of the church." - Senator Barack Obama, 3/15/08

and Obama today....

"Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes." - Senator Barack Obama, 3/18/08

[LSK]

24. objectionable remarks = occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy?

So would 99% of the posts in GD for the past 7 years be "objectionable remarks"????

Are you an Edwards supporter now supporting Clinton???

[flyarm]

78. no i am an Edwards supporter and voter who is supporting truth !

of which we are not getting very much of from Obama or his supporters!

i don't support either candidate..and it doesn't matter because Obama and his guru's are making sure my vote won't count..so they won't get it in Nov!

fly

[EFerrari]

27. So you're taking two minutes and making that representative of a 30 year career.

And you are willing to go along with the conflation of Obama saying he wasn't there on THAT DAY and his admission today that he has heard controversy from Wright?

That's just dishonest. And, of all the things you could pick on, that you choose to pick on this is unbelievable to me, especially since I went and looked at what that church was about. You could have done the same thing.

Maybe you can help the Clinton campaign figure out what they'll call him next -- now that they've burned drug dealer and mugger and otherwise tried to make him "too black" to vote for.

Carjacker? Burglar? Pimp? There are misstatements that Bill Clinton hasn't had time to say yet.

But, I'm sure he'll get them all in there.

[RememberWellstone]

50. Thats what I am asking

Why did he lie? What did he "have" to lie? Will this happen again about say, the war? WOuld he bring the troops home by 2009? Or is that another "contraversial" problem that will have to be changed?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. Trick question.

Non-citizens, minors, and convicted felons are not allowed to vote.

[RememberWellstone]

32. I am neither

So my vote does not count now? Am I being prejudged? Am I being left behind?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. No, RW.

You don't count.

[RememberWellstone]

55. I don't count?

Wow. Thank you for further disavowing my support for your candidate.

[EFerrari]

22. Paul Wellstone would cringe at that false dilemma.

Shame on you for using his good name for that sh!t.

[Cooley Hurd]

25. So true!

:thumbsup:

[RememberWellstone]

30. Thank you

and fuck you very much for thinking for me..I do not need help. These are serious questions that need to be addressed. Can he be trusted? Or do we need another speech on trust now? 20 years and he did not walk away, why did he stay?

[EFerrari]

34. Deal with your own flawed logic before you try to understand

why Obama would continue to support a church that is a mainstay in the community or why he would continue to stand by a friend he's known for years vs. the 2 Fox minutes you're trying to push.

I like Obama so much more for his loyalty. And after reading at Trinity's site, I understand what a hack job this smear has been.

You, on the other hand, have homework to do. Scoot.

[RememberWellstone]

44. Did he lie?

Simple question. Did he lie 2 days ago?

[TahitiNut]

69. Simple answer: No

But folks will believe what they WANT to believe.

Clearly, the specific clips selected for 'exemplars' were, almost certainly, the most succinctly extreme to 'white' ears that many man-hours of searching and filtering could find. (They didn't settle for "second best.") To think otherwise would be naive. Obama has quite candidly acknowledged that Wright has, on a number of occasions, expressed viewpoints with which he, Obama, disagreed. He also said that THOSE specific clips are more extreme and that he did not attend when THOSE were expressed.

HOWEVER ... anyone who thinks Wright is somehow out of the mainstream of black preachers is sadly naive and inexperienced. Indeed, folks thinking so just cannot have the slightest understanding of what was common in the 60s in particular ... and FAR MORE 'extreme.'

Personally, I didn't regard Wright's remarks as all that 'extreme' and wouldn't personally walk out on them.

Happily, I'm not drinking any flavor of Kool-Aid this season. :shrug:

[EFerrari]

70. No, and the particulars have been posted here over and over.

You don't care if he lied. You care to repeat the talking point. What a waste of time.

[ruiner4u]

23. he is Change we can beleave in...

LOL...


more of the status quo

[bowens43]

31. swiftboats away captain!!

You hill supporters are fucking pathetic.

[theredpen]

37. Vote for both of them or vote for McCain

That's your choice in November.

Sitting on your hands is voting for Mccain.
Voting for Nader is voting for McCain.
Voting for McCain — and I can't stress this enough — is voting for McCain.

You will not have the option of voting for Hillary Clinton unless you do it as a write-in which is — wait for it — voting for McCain.

[Faygo Kid]

46. Who is this guy? The next President of the United States.

Glad to provide an answer to your question.

[islandmkl]

49. "RememberWellstone"?....

matter of fact, I do....

you don't remind me of him in any fashion...

probably some misinterpretation on my part...

I believe he had no problem stating his position by laying out FACTS...

conjecture is no substitute for convictions....

[RememberWellstone]

52. Why lie then?

Paul would not lie..even if it meant people throwing spears, hammers and rocks, he would not lie about something that he truely believed in. Does Obama believe in his Church?

[Cooley Hurd]

84. No, Obama elaborated today...

Senator Wellstone was NOT a man of black & white - HE, better than MOST in the US Senate at the time, understood NUANCE. Look that word up, apply it to what you've read and heard today, and come back and apologize to Senator Obama.

[cooolandrew]

51. I disagree with friends I don't throw them under a bus proud of his integrity myself.

[democrattotheend]

60. I don't care...as long as you vote for him!

[RememberWellstone]

65. I am trying

But at every turn I get this "different" Obama. If I were to sit in a Church like that for 20 years surely it would affect my judgement?

[democrattotheend]

81. How do you know his church was "like that" for 20 years?

I would be that whoever is behind leaking these tapes (and I wouldn't be surprised if the Obama campaign leaked it themsleves, given the timing) has probably gone through hundreds of sermons and picked out these few excerpts. Otherwise, why have we not seen a whole bunch of other ones?

I suggest that you read the original "Audacity to Hope" sermon that Barack says drew him to the church in the first place. I would guess that that is a more typical sermon for this church.

[EFerrari]

87. Continue the smear. It can only help our candidate. nt

[walldude]

67. The one in the middle

and lay off the Tequila...

[Bigleaf]

68. Don't bother. You can vote for the Hillary that was for the war before she was against it.

[islandmkl]

73. this OP'er is practicing nothing other than Rovian propaganda....

keep saying something over and over and over...especially something unfounded and harmful to the target...

keep saying 'LIE' over and over and over...

forget that this OP'er has presented NOT ONE FACT...

just says lie...lie...lie...lie in every post....

SO OBVIOUS...COULD HAVE BEEN AMUSING...

MERELY SAD..

[Swamp Rat]

75. PLOP!

[Cooley Hurd]

85. As always, thanks for the smile, my friend!

:thumbsup::rofl:

[Swamp Rat]

89. Wellstone's Ghost made me do it.

:D

[DemVet]

76. Exactly. We don't need a President who changes the story to do damage control.

[EFerrari]

77. And he didn't do that. The information has been posted here.

And, you are so busted.

[DemVet]

90. Nope, I am right, you are wrong.

[Jim Sagle]

79. None of the above.

[goodhue]

80. all of them

[LordJFT]

82. are we talking about flip-flopping

"Sen. Obama has said that words matter. I strongly agree..."-Hillary said that yesterday...


"Some people may think words are change. You and I know better-words are cheap."-Hillary said THAT 1 month ago.

[Bonobo]

86. Who would kick this shit!? I am only cause it is at top, but... It's smelly crap.

[jenmito]

88. PLEASE stop spreading lies!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5146023&mesg_id=5146023